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This is something I'm interested to find out, as it looks like I've been removed from a facebook group for a second time for what to me appeared to be perfectly innocuous comments but evidently were just too monstrous for the admins to tolerate(the first amounted to "No, he's not doing anything illegal by casting a thing he made himself that looks like a Space Marine, don't be silly"[the people baselessly hounding the guy over the supposed illegality of his actions were not, to my knowledge, removed] and the second "This isn't an AoS page, please stick to the topic I come here to get away from AoS" - I know, shocking behaviour ).

Am I alone in considering the idea of stamping out any non-relentlessly-simperingly-positive comment a bit odd? I'm not talking about places with an anything-goes attitude, I have no desire to see the groups & forums I frequent turn into /tg/, but this attitude that no criticism can be useful, or merited, that not merely aggressive negativity but anything other than unmitigated positivity is abhorrent just seems utterly mental to me. Even were I to be let back into the aforementioned group now, I honestly don't know how I could post there again as I've no idea how to operate in that kind of environment - how can you discuss anything if dissent isn't permissable, and if you can't even be aware what is considered dissent until after you've been barred?

So yeah, is this actually a thing, do people like the idea of a community where any discussion beyond "thumbs up, like, great job, wow" is verboten just in case the resulting discussion might, potentially lead to bad behaviour by a minority, rather than merely censuring anyone who does step outside the bounds of normal polite discussion? And if people do favour that approach, can I ask how can you ever hope to get any useful critcism, or indeed anything other than a brief moment of banal affirmation?

I'm genuinely asking the question, as I can't fathom the logic at play here, perhaps if a proponent of the idea is here they can explain it to me.

edited by moderator

Hmm, yeah, I'm afraid I can't really help you out here Yodhrin my friend.

I'm strictly in the group of "if you don't have anything good to say then say nothing at all" when it comes to people I want to be friends with. (And even people I dislike I keep it as polite as possible )

All I can say is keep looking out there for people that share your views or as greatbigtree said you can try to start the group and see if those people are willing to go to you instead.

Either way, hope the 3rd time's the charm for you.

Tone is absolutely everything when you can't see someone face to face; things can be interpreted in so many different ways without your vocal spin on the words that you have to be very considerate if you want to come off as polite/friendly.

The best way to avoid getting into a spot of bother in the future is to ask yourself if the extra quips you add at the end of your statements are really necessary, or if you can make them sound more friendly rather than condescending. Even a simple exclamation mark can change the tone you read a sentence, just like this one!

Even if you don't think you're being rude (I for one don't think your statements are at all ban-worthy), just consider the fact that people might pick up on the idea that you are being rude and run with it.

Tread lightly when you're taking a negative standpoint on something too. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing, provided you don't add potentially inflammatory, eye rolling gak like "don't be stupid", "it's just bullgak", "typical *insert company that have done bad things in the past* cash grabbing behaviour". People will take your arguments a lot more seriously if you don't sound so dismissive of their own

G.A

Learn to not be a fething dick.

Probably.

Edit: your posts here often seem caustic. Perhaps it is your writing style.

I suffer the same, i can be very fething ENGANGED IN CONVERSATIONS!, i just pick facebook groups in chapters/armies i like, and they got way more wiggle room due to comoraderie/loyality. Allready got booted from 40k and 40k for grown ups hahaha. No warnings here execpt a necromancy post.

Baron Klatz wrote:
I'm strictly in the group of "if you don't have anything good to say then say nothing at all" when it comes to people I want to be friends with.

That saying's seemed a bit too Stepford Wives for my liking, for quite a while. It's one thing to carry out ad hominem attacks but I have trouble thinking of many better ways of being stuck with bad things, than never saying bad things about why they're bad things.

I know Yodhrin can be caustic (takes one to know one) but in this case I don't know that crying 'on-topic!' or calling misdirected witch-hunts 'silly' are punishable offences.

Vermis has my point exactly. I'm not talking about breaking the rules of a community(in the first case I mentioned I actually had, as it turned out, apparently broken a rule about not discussing IP issues, but in my defence I'd been using Facebook for literally two weeks at that point and hadn't realised there was an expandable description there - and as I say, to my knowledge the other side of that discussion was not barred), I'm talking about vague prohibitions regarding tone that are so broad, so undefined, that I can't see a way to operate within them unless you take Klatz's sentiment to its utter extreme and limit your interactions entirely to deciding whether or not to click the Like button.

I mean, if saying "this is off topic, please take it to an appropriate group instead, I come here to avoid that stuff" is a step too far, what on earth could be considered acceptable? And seriously, genuinely, I want to know(evidently simply stating that once wasn't enough) - why would people find such an environment appealing? By which I mean, a place for discussion where discussion isn't possible?

Maybe your caustic and sneering approach rub people up the wrong way to the extent they gave less tolerance.

You point to two things, but they were probably the last straws

With respect, your first post come across as (unnecessarily?) aggressive. It may not be meant to be, but that's how I read it.

My first thought was that your first ban might well get you a reprimand here - it COULD be seen as promoting illegal casting. Again, you may not have intended that, but that's how it came across to me. Similarly, " non-relentlessly-simperingly-positive comment " came across as "dummy out of pram". Again, maybe not your intention.

There IS a place for constructive criticism, debate, and even outright argument. But as General said: it's all about tone. HOW you say it makes the difference in how it's accepted.

If we're polite about it, we can argue black is white until the cows come home and enjoy the argument. If we're whiny, life's too short. Hope that answers your question!

Never been booted from a FB group but I don't like FB posts as a medium for discussion so I don't post a great deal in groups.

Maybe if I was more active I would have been banned by now.

I say that because, my impression is that FB groups are a bit thin-skinned compared to forum discussion ... although some forums also have thinner-skinned cultures than what I am accustomed to (and, as a moderator, believe is appropriate) here on Dakka Dakka.

As for Yodhrin's tone - maybe I am just used to it by now? One of the things I like about forums is they get to be like favorite bars; you know the patrons. There is a family feeling. I know Yodhrin tends to come off as cranky, he and I have had our disagreements over the years. So when I read the OP, I guess I took what he said a bit more at face value as opposed to thinking, maybe it was just you mate.

But that is sort of back to my point about this venue being a little more thick-skinned. I mean - we haven't kicked the guy out of here yet, after all.

 Yodhrin wrote:
This is something I'm interested to find out, as it looks like I've been removed from a facebook group for a second time for what to me appeared to be perfectly innocuous comments but evidently were just too monstrous for the admins to tolerate(the first amounted to "No, he's not doing anything illegal by casting a thing he made himself that looks like a Space Marine, don't be silly"[the people baselessly hounding the guy over the supposed illegality of his actions were not, to my knowledge, removed] and the second "This isn't an AoS page, please stick to the topic I come here to get away from AoS" - I know, shocking behaviour ).

Are you sure everyone else in the thread sees it the same way you did? You must have read posts that made you think "Wow, why is he being so aggressive and abrasive when we're just here to have a friendly chat about toy soldiers?" And I can nearly guarantee that the person who made those posts would tell you that they're just engaging in robust discussion, telling it like it is, why are you being so thin-skinned? Nobody being aggressive or tiresomely strident ever thinks they're being unreasonable.

First and second times might be bad luck, third time you start looking in a mirror for the problem.
I get a bit firey sometimes but I tend to lurk for a while before putting up an opinion so I already have a notion of what might not be accepted.

Thebiggesthat wrote:
Maybe your caustic and sneering approach rub people up the wrong way to the extent they gave less tolerance.

You point to two things, but they were probably the last straws

This. The only Dakka posters more caustic than you seem are on my ignore list.

Before you post, think "does this tone help the situation?"

It's not necessarily your tone or choice of words, either.
Sometimes, no matter how many times you carefully go over what you've written to make sure it says exactly what you want it to say, there are some people who will just see what they want to see and who will willfully misinterpret or misrepresent what you've written to suit their own purposes. That's why I don't post in the US Politics threads on Dakka anymore; I'm just too sick and tired of the dishonest misrepresentation of what people say, and it's not worth the blood pressure anymore.

People are incredibly thin skinned nowadays. I know, it sucks, but most people use social media not to hear different opinions, but to stay in well protected echo-chambers. A sign of emotional immaturity, if you ask me.

stroller wrote:
My first thought was that your first ban might well get you a reprimand here - it COULD be seen as promoting illegal casting. Again, you may not have intended that, but that's how it came across to me.

If casting something space-marine-like were illegal, and shunned by the community, there are plenty of third-party sellers who'd get short shrift here.

There IS a place for constructive criticism, debate, and even outright argument. But as General said: it's all about tone. HOW you say it makes the difference in how it's accepted.

I agree with this in terms of someone's hobby work or purchase choices; but in News and Dakka Discussions I sometimes get the feeling that any criticism of things, especially GW things, still comes as an unwelcome shock, even if it's not a surprise.

As an exception, there are a couple of recent news topics where - unusually - new GW products are not generally well received. Some people I would've normally assumed to be positive have negative things to say about them, without being very constructive either. If they didn't have nice things to say, should they have said them at all?

Believe it or not, I think constructive criticism is a good thing; but it's easier to talk about belling the cat.

Thebiggesthat wrote:Maybe your caustic and sneering approach rub people up the wrong way to the extent they gave less tolerance.

You point to two things, but they were probably the last straws

I'm not sure what to say about this. It just seems ironic in a couple of ways.

Elemental wrote:Nobody being aggressive or tiresomely strident ever thinks they're being unreasonable.

I am unreasonable, but it's been drummed into me by years of unreasonable rationalisations and logical fallacies justifying GW's shenanigans.

 Manchu wrote:
As for Yodhrin's tone - maybe I am just used to it by now? One of the things I like about forums is they get to be like favorite bars; you know the patrons. There is a family feeling. I know Yodhrin tends to come off as cranky, he and I have had our disagreements over the years. So when I read the OP, I guess I took what he said a bit more at face value as opposed to thinking, maybe it was just you mate.

This is good to read. I dislike the whole practice of 'Tone Policing.' A mature adult should be able to discern the substance of a statement-- and respond to it-- without getting 'triggered' or choosing to take offense at the style of the statement.

 Red Harvest wrote:

This is good to read. I dislike the whole practice of 'Tone Policing.' A mature adult should be able to discern the substance of a statement-- and respond to it-- without getting 'triggered' or choosing to take offense at the style of the statement.

Provided you know the person well enough like Manchu said. Even then, if we were to look at this from a psychological perspective, an individual's schema could have a huge impact on how your words are interpreted, especially when we involve inevitable preconceptions about words that you might be using in your statements.

I know that sometimes I can be afflicted with mild paranoia, where I'm unsure whether someone is joking/being serious, being light hearted/condescending, laughing with me/laughing at me. As you get to know people better, that decreases rapidly, but on a forum or a FB group, where you could potentially be discussing a wide variety of topics with new people each time you use it, it sometimes pays to have a more transparent tone.

I'm actually in favor of very little moderation, along with a good ignore feature (I don't know if it exists on FB).

In my experience, a small number of people spend a lot of time trolling. These people can be dealt with by either banning them, or by putting them on an ignore list. I prefer the second option, because each person is free to make its own list, according to its criteria.

Then there's a large number of people who sometimes post interesting stuff, but sometimes are a bit harsh/caustic/trolling/whatever. As long as it's not non-stop negativity or aggressive behavior, I can deal with it. It's like any normal interaction with someone, sometimes they say something that you don't like (it's a bit more frequent on the internet because you don't have the tone/facial expression with the words). But on a forum, it's much easier, and absolutely not rude, to just ignore the few posts that get on your nerve from a person who otherwise contribute positively to the community.

I know that sometimes I can be afflicted with mild paranoia, where I'm unsure whether someone is joking/being serious, being light hearted/condescending, laughing with me/laughing at me.

Let me save you a bunch of time, unless these people are people who are close to you, it absolutely does not matter. Not even a little bit.

I think the realization that a) not everyone is going to like you, and that's nothing to do with you and b) what the overwhelming majority people think about you makes no fething difference to how you'll live your life are the among the most important things you can learn.

 Yodhrin wrote:
This is something I'm interested to find out, as it looks like I've been removed from a facebook group for a second time for what to me appeared to be perfectly innocuous comments but evidently were just too monstrous for the admins to tolerate(the first amounted to "No, he's not doing anything illegal by casting a thing he made himself that looks like a Space Marine, don't be silly"[the people baselessly hounding the guy over the supposed illegality of his actions were not, to my knowledge, removed] and the second "This isn't an AoS page, please stick to the topic I come here to get away from AoS" - I know, shocking behaviour ).

Am I alone in considering the idea of stamping out any non-relentlessly-simperingly-positive comment a bit odd? I'm not talking about places with an anything-goes attitude, I have no desire to see the groups & forums I frequent turn into /tg/, but this attitude that no criticism can be useful, or merited, that not merely aggressive negativity but anything other than unmitigated positivity is abhorrent just seems utterly mental to me. Even were I to be let back into the aforementioned group now, I honestly don't know how I could post there again as I've no idea how to operate in that kind of environment - how can you discuss anything if dissent isn't permissable, and if you can't even be aware what is considered dissent until after you've been barred?

So yeah, is this actually a thing, do people like the idea of a community where any discussion beyond "thumbs up, like, great job, wow" is verboten just in case the resulting discussion might, potentially lead to bad behaviour by a minority, rather than merely censuring anyone who does step outside the bounds of normal polite discussion? And if people do favour that approach, can I ask how can you ever hope to get any useful critcism, or indeed anything other than a brief moment of banal affirmation?

I'm genuinely asking the question, as I can't fathom the logic at play here, perhaps if a proponent of the idea is here they can explain it to me.

Yes, I've seen a lot of communities like that, they don't want discussion, they want positive discussion only. Anything negative means you are breaking the narrative (ha). I've had it happen to myself, if you don't go "oh my god that' so amazing I want to buy it now!" to every new thing GW puts out, you'll get a ton of people jumping on you. It's... interesting to say the least, and again it's something I have never seen outside of the GW ecosystem (within reason of course) where contradictory but polite opinion is treated the same as calling everybody a bunch of fething losers.

A lot of it I think comes from human nature: You get admins on chats or facebook sites that have a bit of power to throw around and figure they can abuse it, you see it on some forums as well (thankfully not here that I've seen) even though it's not really hard or time consuming to manage those things. So you basically get people who cling to anything they can use to pretend they are big and bad in life.

Wayniac wrote:
I've seen a lot of communities like that, they don't want discussion, they want positive discussion only.

Yep, this matches some stuff I have run onto on FB.

Every venue seems to have its own culture - with FB groups, this sometimes verges on groupthink. Maybe it is because those groups are more personality-driven than content-driven. If you are on board with the leading posters' viewpoints then you stick around but if you're not then you opt out of the group. I think the forum medium is more about the content than the personalities. Maybe this is because forum posting is better suited to sustained discussions.

Facebook groups can be terrible at times, some of the group admins let a bit of power get to their heads.
Some of them make strict rules and stick to them like glue.

I joined a medical marijuana group recently and they kick you out, for mentioning thc !

I would not waste much thought on it if were you.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Let me save you a bunch of time, unless these people are people who are close to you, it absolutely does not matter. Not even a little bit.

I think the realization that a) not everyone is going to like you, and that's nothing to do with you and b) what the overwhelming majority people think about you makes no fething difference to how you'll live your life are the among the most important things you can learn.

I get that, even endorse it, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't care at all about how I might come off towards people.

I also care about people enjoying their time on Dakka, since nobody wants to feel like their free time has been wasted, or they would have been better off not getting involved in discussion, like I often feel.

It doesn't mean that I won't shy away from sharing my opinion here, but I try my best to keep discussion as level headed as possible for everyone's benefit. I'll never ask for people to agree with me, only that they try to share their point of view without needless jabs due to them strongly disagreeing with me.

I know a lot of people don't like me here, or what I have to say, and that's fine. I just try to balance that out with good interactions with people, even the said people who don't like me. Treat others how you'd like to be treated and all that.


It's a tricky topic this. I think for the most part that you'll only get what you put into discussions; be gentle mannered and put across a convincing argument, while taking note of what others have to say in response, and you can learn a thing or two. Act like a snarky git and you'll probably get a torrent of bad feedback, or a completely wasted discussion opportunity.

Well Echo chambers seem to be a thing these days, they don't want discussion they want a circle of sycophants, i stopped posting critique in painting threads as lots of people feel that is a personal attack and then they turn around and start to attack my own painted stuff, i know i am not the best painter, but i still know when something is wrong.

 Azreal13 wrote:

I know that sometimes I can be afflicted with mild paranoia, where I'm unsure whether someone is joking/being serious, being light hearted/condescending, laughing with me/laughing at me.

Let me save you a bunch of time, unless these people are people who are close to you, it absolutely does not matter. Not even a little bit.

I think the realization that a) not everyone is going to like you, and that's nothing to do with you and b) what the overwhelming majority people think about you makes no fething difference to how you'll live your life are the among the most important things you can learn.

does this mean we will have to stop the weekly sessions of naysaying assorted dakkaites ? But then how will a random person ill never meet worry about what another random person theyll never meet might be saying about them

Erm, well, it seems you can add "jumps to conclusions" to "caustic" - turns out I was removed accidentally, that it happened to be right after that comment seems to have been a coincidence. Oops

 Yodhrin wrote:

I mean, if saying "this is off topic, please take it to an appropriate group instead, I come here to avoid that stuff" is a step too far, what on earth could be considered acceptable? And seriously, genuinely, I want to know(evidently simply stating that once wasn't enough) - why would people find such an environment appealing? By which I mean, a place for discussion where discussion isn't possible?

Hobby discussion is always going to overlap with related hobbies - and often into related and semi-related tangents. WHFB, 40k and AoS are directly related. Moreso than close cousins like KoW and Bolt Action. If you're not a moderator, or at least a well-established member of a social group, you have not earned the right to ask other people to stop discussing something. Depending on the group and it's social mores, others who are not moderators - through time invested, "effort" in being an active member" etc - may have (and often have) built social relationships with others that give them the right or ability to do or say things that would not be tolerated by someone new.

It's like this:
People have set up a club that's nominally for X and Y. Sometimes people also talk about Z or even A and B.
A new person goes into the club and overhears others talking about Z.
New person asks the established members to please stop talking about Z since Z is not on the sign on the door.
New person is shown the door.

As others have noted. Intentional or not, you do often come across as rather caustic and bull-headed. This probably does not help.

Speaking for myself, I can be very angry, sarcastic or even a right arsehole at times, but I'm also aware of it and am able to self-moderate my discussion. It happens quite often that things (or people) I read in N&R are so fething stupid/uninformed/misinformed/moronic that I simply step away from the conversation. For weeks or permanently. I do the same when I get particularly angry with a discussion, or know that my next comment will be ....unpleasant.

If you find it more difficult to be aware or self-moderate, you will probably need to be more careful.

 Azazelx wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

I mean, if saying "this is off topic, please take it to an appropriate group instead, I come here to avoid that stuff" is a step too far, what on earth could be considered acceptable? And seriously, genuinely, I want to know(evidently simply stating that once wasn't enough) - why would people find such an environment appealing? By which I mean, a place for discussion where discussion isn't possible?

Hobby discussion is always going to overlap with related hobbies - and often into related and semi-related tangents. WHFB, 40k and AoS are directly related. Moreso than close cousins like KoW and Bolt Action. If you're not a moderator, or at least a well-established member of a social group, you have not earned the right to ask other people to stop discussing something. Depending on the group and it's social mores, others who are not moderators - through time invested, "effort" in being an active member" etc - may have (and often have) built social relationships with others that give them the right or ability to do or say things that would not be tolerated by someone new.

It's like this:
People have set up a club that's nominally for X and Y. Sometimes people also talk about Z or even A and B.
A new person goes into the club and overhears others talking about Z.
New person asks the established members to please stop talking about Z since Z is not on the sign on the door.
New person is shown the door.

As others have noted. Intentional or not, you do often come across as rather caustic and bull-headed. This probably does not help.

Speaking for myself, I can be very angry, sarcastic or even a right arsehole at times, but I'm also aware of it and am able to self-moderate my discussion. It happens quite often that things (or people) I read in N&R are so fething stupid/uninformed/misinformed/moronic that I simply step away from the conversation. For weeks or permanently. I do the same when I get particularly angry with a discussion, or know that my next comment will be ....unpleasant.

If you find it more difficult to be aware or self-moderate, you will probably need to be more careful.

Oh it's not about self moderation, I simply disagree with your basic core assertion - if someone puts something up for discussion on a discussion group, everyone has the "right" to share their views on what they raise. Moderators have the power to enforce rules, that doesn't mean they're the only ones allowed to mention or hold opinions about them, and if the mods around here took your view they'd be banning dozens upon dozens of people from every single rumour thread. If I was bored enough to sit and go through all the posts you've made, are you seriously claiming I wouldn't see even a single solitary instance of you opining that someone else's contribution to a thread was off topic?

As for the whole caustic thing - eh, think what you like. Personally, I suspect that some folk have been reading emotion or malice into my words that simply wasn't there - indeed, I've been noticing a lot recently that neurotypical people's reliance on intuition and rapport can be as crippling and troublemaking for them online as my difficulties with those things causes me offline. Here the playing field is level but NT's are so used to reading things into people's words beyond the literal that you simply can't stop yourselves, even when there isn't anything there to read.