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Backstory.

I've got a bunch of chaos renegades (like the late 80s early 90s variety), a good half dozen rhinos, maybe 10 or so old chaos terminators, a dread (old kind again) a predator and a few greater demons (keeper of secrets, etc.). While I've been ditching some older stuff on eBay I've also picked up a few newer things (some chosen, a lord and helbrute I think from DV, Abbo .. and a NIB box of spawn).

While I've been revamping my normal marines, as a break I've started to try to figure out how to organize, repaint, etc my chaos. What I am hoping for is some advice ... I know I'll pick up some more stuff (and have while seeing stuff on eBay) but I'm getting to the point where I should be a bit more .. specific.

Renegade-wise, I have about 34 or so of the old style. Maybe 7-8 Khornik, dozen or so Nurgley, dozen or so Slaanesh-ish and maybe two Tzeentchy and a few less specific looking in terms of theme. All are metal, and while stylistically they look like I describe there really are only 6 w/ a hard mark of slaanesh, 2 tzeentch, 1 khorne, 1 nurgle .. but I can take a Dremel to them and get the marks off if necessary.

BUT maybe that isn't necessary. I'm looking at a few options, and only a few seem to stand out.

Black Legion .. I could do this, making basically squads of CSM or chosen with marks, possible one or two plague marines. DV chosen could be aspiring champs / squad leaders. I think this would look more like a CAD with maybe a havok or two and a big squad of raptors.

Death Guard .. with some Dremel love and drilling / gouging I could probably come up with 35 Nurgle enough models to form a plague colony thing. That's a commitment, and I can do it. From just looking at the lists this seems so much stronger than Black Legion.

So first question .. is Black Legion decent enough?

Second question .. if I go Black Legion my brain wants to make any Khorne squad eight models, a Nurgle squad seven, 2x six Slaanesh, etc. Is that something that is just me holding on to grognard OCD? Is that at all useful or do I need to get rid of my hangups?

Third question .. WYSIWYG and old metal models .. if I take these guys beyond my local area will I get grief if the model has an ambiguous gun and a chainsaw fused to its arm and I say it is a bolt pistol and CA, etc? Not talking special or heavy weapons, but stuff like "do I need to glue a knife on everyone if I go death guard"?

Thanks for any help!

If it's a squad upgrade (grenades, pistol) then everyone doesn't need it modeled. If it's a single model upgrade (power sword on a champ) that will need modeling.

As far as the new legion stuff, everyone kind of has their gimmick, and you have to lean into their strengths. Black legion are the most well rounded and versatile, they can throw anything into their list, put marks everywhere, and take all the detachments. Also the kings of deep striking now.

Honestly though there's not really a bad legion. Even word bearers isn't awful, just super gimmicky. Go with what you'd be happy painting for years on end and you'll be happier than if you clumped filth and green stuff on all your models and then realized you didn't like the death guard playstyle.

Good advice on the painting and such.

My previous (and current paint jobs) are all very ... squad-based ... using the old "unbound" kind of way. The Khorne looking ones are red and brass. The Slaanesh marked ones have purples and pinks. The Nurgles are a span of greens and browns and putrid yellows.

Maybe a tactical question in terms of optimization. If I were to go all-in with one (basically) I'd probably pick Nurgle because (a) I've got some mass there and (b) Death Guard and Emperor's Children offern similar benefits and (c) Black Legion is boring. Death Guard seems to have some better options to both use your signature troops AND have decent varied capabilities. Emperor's Children get all the fancy sonic (which I do love) but really lack heavy-punch on their signature unit. Death Guard can pack plasma, melta, flamers and give some varied options.

I suppose I COULD try to do a bunch of relatively small detachments. Is that completely and totally inefficient?

They way I'm reading Traitor Legions, there are two basic "levels" of benefit. If you build an Emperor's Children detachment, you get the basic benefits ... and if you use their special force you get additional (combat drugs) but have to use a Chaos Warband or Kakophoni. I could run a Demon Prince and 2 Noise Marines as an Emperor's Children CAD, right? And a larger Death Guard force maybe using a Plague Colony? And if so, the Emperor's Children CAD could include Havoks as a heavy to give me some punch.

I'd have to pick one as the lead, but each would get the benefits of their basic organization.

Then I'd be running a force that was basically several smaller collections. Sure, a full Plague Colony would be fun (or a full Kakophoni) but I'm thinking I need some options for variance.

Is taking that many leader-types expensive and pointless?

Black Legion allows for some fairly flexible formations to be taken. Having a bunch of sorcerers and completely dominating the psychic phase is pretty doable. And even with all the modern rules, you still can't go wrong with Chaos Spawn. The models are a ton of fun to build and the kit has so many extra bits that you can build some more spawn if you are handy with green stuff and pick up some more bases. Personally, I like some extra daemons sprinkled into the game, and Nurgle has some of the most resilient cannon fodder around for quite cheap in the way of nurglings and plaguebringers.

Black Legion looks very flexible but FNP and either +1 T or Initial seemed really really strong. That said, not played much this edition so could easily be over evaluating.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Munga wrote:
Black Legion allows for some fairly flexible formations to be taken. Having a bunch of sorcerers and completely dominating the psychic phase is pretty doable. And even with all the modern rules, you still can't go wrong with Chaos Spawn. The models are a ton of fun to build and the kit has so many extra bits that you can build some more spawn if you are handy with green stuff and pick up some more bases. Personally, I like some extra daemons sprinkled into the game, and Nurgle has some of the most resilient cannon fodder around for quite cheap in the way of nurglings and plaguebringers.

I think I'm pretty much convinced that I'll take most of my existing renegades and what other CSM I have and build out a Plague Colony. Modeling-wise I've committed to only one of my older Rhino's going to my normal SM, my other older models will go to these CSM options and I'll kit them up and have fun doing it.

Beyond that, my second largest concentration is Slaanesh-leaning, and maybe I'll see if I can build out the core of either a Kakophoni or more generic Rapture Batallion. One thing I don't like about the special detachments in Traitor Legions is that if you want to include the actual special troops, there's only one spot on the force org for them really in the Nurgle / Slaanesh lists at least - you can only put Death Guard / Noise Marines in their special core and that's it. Thousand Sons get more options (unless I'm missing something).

As far as spawn goes ... I love mucking around with modeling. I'm not the best painter, but I do love to kit-bash a bit. I ordered the new spawn in box just so I could play and have some extra bits to put on my rhinos. Plus a unit of spawn means I can bascially field either of the two above + the spawn and have a compliant force. Many of the other options seem so ... large. 3-5 units of terminators? 40 cultists? How big is the table you play with those as "part" of your force on?

I don't see much traffic for Night Lords or Alpha Legion ... is that because they are generally niche and lower tier?

To me, not playing Alpha Legion or Night Lords is simply choice, preference. I think they are kind of 'meh'. I do have a sizable Death Guard force and a varied Khorne Daemonkin, besides a bunch of the new Tzeentch units still in the wrapping plastic and a couple of built but unpainted Slaaneshi units. Currently, I am experimenting a bit with painting Black Legion, and trying out several modeling options such as magnetizing squad champions, special weapon troopers, and heavy weapon troopers. Keeping a little painting log while I paint up two Troops Choices of 10 CSM each.

Another reason I heard explaining why Night Lords are not so popular, is because of the current meta about fear. So they all cause Fear, and in close combat they even modify the opposing model's Leadership because they are all so terrifying. So these fearless Terminators are now Leadership 8 for a test they never have to make. There, Wraithguard laugh (spiritually, sort of) in the face of fear. So what if that Night Lords Raptors Troops unit is causing fear... and that fear being ignored by that big, bad Hive Tyrant and his surrounding tide of frothing, fearless claws, jaws and a bit of attitude left and right.

Being newly back, I am trying not to make snap paper judgements, but that's why I find myself looking more at Death Guard and Emperors Children ... they have decent abilities that are consistently and predictably applied. FNP and increased toughness is often useful while fear is the kind of thing that may be a good choice depending on the meta at the time .. and gambles tend to be poor choices.

I can't seem to get excited about the black Legion, though I want to. Iron Warriors are too close to my normal SM. I kinda want to look at alpha legion, but don't know enough about how infiltrate and losing initiative works (though that may also be why they get shrouded)

I do wonder if in big games people just cherry pick and run detachments of just the specials for each Legion.

Something that drew me towards Black Legion, other than their fluff of course, is the fact that they can sort of 'do it all'. They have almost no limits on marked units, so you are able to cherry pick who follows the Warmaster. How about those Initiative 5 Slaaneshi Chosen (as Troops choices) with a bunch of power swords, while Pappa Nurgles blessed the Havocs with (granted, less than true Death Guard) staying power due to the extra Toughness, led by a Tzeentchian marked Cyclopia Cabal.

It is true that Black Legion is just a tad more powerful against armies of the Imperium due to Endless Hatred. But they have the basic Hatred against everybody else. And few people can argue against a bunch of Terminators (Nurglified for a bit of staying power, if you wish) deep striking onto selected objectives and keeping the 'Objective Secured' just for being Troops in a CAD or Chaos Space Marines Warband.

Black Legion is all about options andmyriad choice.

Well if you're looking at pure power, Deathguard take the cake. They were better before, but now they are nothing short of amazing. The appeal of Black Legion is mostly a fluff thing. They're not bad, T1 deepstriking, the cabal and armywide hatred is decent, but nowhere near +1T, relentless and fnp. Plus you can take the cabal anyway. Maybe if we got a codex update they might have more crunch appeal, but yea.

Looking at all the lists and stuff - what's the easiest way to get JUST Havoks onto a list?

It almost seems like if I went Death Guard or Emperor's Children and took their archtetype unit (plague colony, kakaphoni) that the best way to get some heavies into that is (instead of a Chaos Warband) to do another CAD. Is there some detachment somewhere I'm not seeing that includes Havoks?

Well, if you are drawn to the fluff and cannot decide Black Legion is the way to go... I have for decades (it is nice when an OK codex roles around for them).
Just paint up each cultist faction in their own schemes just keep the basing similar..
For Havocs, go for Iron Legion and do similar colours for any Obliterators.
So at least if any particular faction strikes your fancy you can expand a few cult squads and then in short order you have multiple viable separate or combined armies of chaos.

I always liked Abaddon being able to get the band back together and have a bunch of diverse groups all under one rule.

 Talizvar wrote:
I always liked Abaddon being able to get the band back together and have a bunch of diverse groups all under one rule.

Well, the show must go on.

They just seem like a tax to get the decent units. That said, the BLWB doesn't look so horrible. Couple chosen, some terms, a fast and some havoks.