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What if anything does DW do better than Codex: Space Marines

I've been doing some comparison and it seems like SM have all the same stuff (and lots more) and are far cheaper. Are those situational rerolls really worth 8 points per model for veterans?

DW have a couple weapons that are different like the Frag Cannon, but are they more efficient for the points? And then lets not even mention all the options DW doesn't have.

For me, it's mostly the modeling opportunities lol!

But since this is a Tactics forum, I'll say the other things you get are HQs like crazy. Every Killteam can have a Librarian.
Heavy Weapon squads can have assault deterrents in CML Termies, Librarians, wall of death overwatch guns, etc
Adding a single bike to the killteam gives you split fire as well as extra reach on your charges.
It's the only way to get a Corvus Blackstar. I personally don't have experience with it, but a lot of people seem to like them (especially since it's one of the only transports that can take your mixed-type units -- stupid FAQ!)
It's really easy to unlock multiple formations with as few as 10-15 models. The same 7 guys can be Aquila Team in one game, then a Malleus Team the next; add a Captain for Strategium Command Team and they have FNP(6+). Add a Dreadnought and they can Deep Strike.

Special issue ammunition makes them basically a whole army of sternguard as well.

It's really the weapon options are target selectivity that your paying for. Which is something particularly expensive in 40k. Pretty much every model in every unit has a weapon for every situation and or target. Odds are no matter what kill team you take it will be ready to fire something at everything from a monsterous creature to a hordy troop choice.

On a sliding power scale i'd say it makes them pretty weak.

They have a weapon that double duty as lascannon (with 2 shots) and a rending flamer (2 shots as well), not heavy and you can put it in a drop pod.

If the enemy doesn't have interceptor...

 buddha wrote:
Special issue ammunition makes them basically a whole army of sternguard as well.

that can be done with the First Company Task Force though.

They do cost a lot of points but they are worth it for the ability to be able to remove your opponents major threats turn 1.

They Pod in desyroy something then because of how dangerous they are they get focuses on by your opponent and take all the focus off the rest of your force.

They are a swiss army knife ready to take care of anything when you need them too.

 buddha wrote:
Special issue ammunition makes them basically a whole army of sternguard as well.

This is kindof the problem. Youre paying for special ammo so as soon as you add heavy weps the points are wasted.
Take a squad of vets and add heavy bolters, missile launchers or heavy flamers then devastators are much cheaper. Even adding cannon fodder bodies to devastators is much cheaper.

I feel like there must be some hidden gem in there. Like vet squads with a single terminator and bike for a +2 save blocker and split fire. Then again it really bites when for every 2 heavy weps you take you give up more than a tac marine.

One thing for sure is DW must be played aggressively. Defense just wont work.

Ally Deathwatch with themselves to get the best out of them. Deathwatch's strength is that they make absolutely BEASTLY allies.
I ally mine as a pair of CAD alongside the Black Spear formation.
What Deathwatch does really well as a CAD is divide attention, three 35-55 point Vanguard Vet units plus four 30-35 point Biker units are highly mobile threats that you apply as pressure where needed, wreck vehicles, apply needed AP, force unwanted overwatches and basically harass as creatively as possible.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Ally Deathwatch with themselves to get the best out of them. Deathwatch's strength is that they make absolutely BEASTLY allies.
I ally mine as a pair of CAD alongside the Black Spear formation.
What Deathwatch does really well as a CAD is divide attention, three 35-55 point Vanguard Vet units plus four 30-35 point Biker units are highly mobile threats that you apply as pressure where needed, wreck vehicles, apply needed AP, force unwanted overwatches and basically harass as creatively as possible.

The bikes with the ability to split fire with the special ammo is deadly.
Great for cleaning up nuisance low model count units.

They are truly an army of Sternguard, that means you spent the points on special ammo shooting, do not get suckered into melee options.
I am still trying to figure out how to effectively use the combat shotguns, there seems so much potential there.

The ONE option for terminators is interesting: that add-on melta for the power fist.
One of the few options no other army has other than mounted on dreadnaughts.

The aircraft fails as a troop transport but makes a great close support bomber.

About all I can think of other than I agree the modelling opportunities allow a diverse group of marines.

 Talizvar wrote:

Spoiler:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Ally Deathwatch with themselves to get the best out of them. Deathwatch's strength is that they make absolutely BEASTLY allies.
I ally mine as a pair of CAD alongside the Black Spear formation.
What Deathwatch does really well as a CAD is divide attention, three 35-55 point Vanguard Vet units plus four 30-35 point Biker units are highly mobile threats that you apply as pressure where needed, wreck vehicles, apply needed AP, force unwanted overwatches and basically harass as creatively as possible.

The bikes with the ability to split fire with the special ammo is deadly.
Great for cleaning up nuisance low model count units.

They are truly an army of Sternguard, that means you spent the points on special ammo shooting, do not get suckered into melee options.
I am still trying to figure out how to effectively use the combat shotguns, there seems so much potential there.

The ONE option for terminators is interesting: that add-on melta for the power fist.
One of the few options no other army has other than mounted on dreadnaughts.

The aircraft fails as a troop transport but makes a great close support bomber.

About all I can think of other than I agree the modelling opportunities allow a diverse group of marines.

That's an interesting way of looking at Deathwatch Bikers. A shame they don't have access to alternate ranged weapons. Still, units of two Deathwatch Bikers is a really good idea - gives me an idea to ally them with the Wyrdstorm Brotherhood.
Psychic phase Tempestas.
Split Fire Twin-Linked Specialised ammo.
Regular shooting Twin-Linked Bolt Gun.

1500 pt. game should I grab an LR and throw some thunder hammers in there and just bum rush?

stewe128 wrote:
1500 pt. game should I grab an LR and throw some thunder hammers in there and just bum rush?

Possibly - Land Raiders work best when you have things scarier than the Land Raider and its cargo.
You run Guard as well right?

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

stewe128 wrote:
1500 pt. game should I grab an LR and throw some thunder hammers in there and just bum rush?

Possibly - Land Raiders work best when you have things scarier than the Land Raider and its cargo.
You run Guard as well right?

Yeah just 200pts worth

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Special issue ammunition makes them basically a whole army of sternguard as well.

that can be done with the First Company Task Force though.

true but you can deploy one unit of them with a Libby in supprot as a stand alone formation, handy if you really want sternguard but don't wanna take 3 squads of em

I do think the DW units are stronger with q lib upfront handing out wounds.

stewe128 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

stewe128 wrote:
1500 pt. game should I grab an LR and throw some thunder hammers in there and just bum rush?

Possibly - Land Raiders work best when you have things scarier than the Land Raider and its cargo.
You run Guard as well right?

Yeah just 200pts worth

Probably not then. I'd probably suggest Drop Pods with Locator Beacons over a Land Raider.

Deathwatch do Troops better. Codex Space Marines has two options, and both are competing for title of worst troops choices in the game between the dreadful lack of support weapons they get and their incredibly mediocre damage output against even infantry. Honestly, as someone that used to play a lot of Tactical Mech, once I realised how inefficient Tactical Marines are compared to Guardsmen I switched to playing Imperial Guard and have barely touched my Marines since.

The main problem with Deathwatch is that although they have some nice gimmicks the low model count is pretty crippling, as is the dependence on pulling off alphastrikes with drop pods/blackstars. As others have said, they're best off used as allies for an army that has more staying power.

wrong thread

 Mr.Omega wrote:

Deathwatch do Troops better. Codex Space Marines has two options, and both are competing for title of worst troops choices in the game between the dreadful lack of support weapons they get and their incredibly mediocre damage output against even infantry. Honestly, as someone that used to play a lot of Tactical Mech, once I realised how inefficient Tactical Marines are compared to Guardsmen I switched to playing Imperial Guard and have barely touched my Marines since.

The main problem with Deathwatch is that although they have some nice gimmicks the low model count is pretty crippling, as is the dependence on pulling off alphastrikes with drop pods/blackstars. As others have said, they're best off used as allies for an army that has more staying power.

You watch your mouth. Scouts are fething fantastic.

But yeah Tactical Marines are garbage. A complete inability to really kit them out to do a task doesn't make up for all the rules people like to complain about.

the problem is that just about everyy army has "boltguns +1" so the basic bolter is a bit behind the curve.

BrianDavion wrote:
the problem is that just about everyy army has "boltguns +1" so the basic bolter is a bit behind the curve.

How do you figure?
I see Heavy Weapons +1 but not so much Bolt Gun.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the problem is that just about everyy army has "boltguns +1" so the basic bolter is a bit behind the curve.

How do you figure?
I see Heavy Weapons +1 but not so much Bolt Gun.

I think he's talking about non-MEQ armies. It's not really /every/ army, either, but there's still a considerable presence of 'standard-issue' guns that seem strictly better than the boltgun and on models who are just as or less expensive than marines.

-Avenger Shurican Catapult (the somewhat lower range is offset enough by the ability to run-shoot that it's not so much of a disadvantage vs. the boltgun)
-Galvanic Rifle
-Gauss Rifle
-Pulse Rifle
-Special-issue Ammo Bolter (though, on a much more expensive Deathwatch Veteran)
-Splinter Rifle (very rarely will you be lamenting that you have 4+ poison rather than S4)

-Cult Mechanicus is a really weird faction, but their troops are issued with grav cannons, two-shot plasma cannons, heavy arc rifles, and/or torsion cannons, although on a much more expensive (but somewhat more durable) platform (and if you were to give, say, a grav cannon to a marine you'd be approaching the same point value). Similarly, Grey Knights have Storm Bolters, though they pay through the nose for their men and you're definitely not buying them for their storm bolters.

Furthermore, I think the Assault property of Shootas makes up for the AP6 and lower range (although, the Boyz wielding them are a touch unreliable).

So of the 10 'enemy factions' (including Harlies but lumping 1kSons and Daemonkin in with CSM) we have 4-5 (depending on your stance on Shootas) whose grunts are issued a better gun than Mankind's finest, as well as two Imperial armies (Skitarii and Deathwatch) with Bolters +1 in addition to Cult Mechanicus, which just uses heavy weapons as its own standard-issue guns, and GKs, whose tactical marine-equivalents have bolters +1, but aren't much better of for it. That's about half of the Imperial's enemies (as represented on the tabletop) whose standard-issue 'rifles' are superior to the holy bolter, in addition to a handful of Imperial armies who are equipped better than the bulk of MEQs.

Aside from the bolter-issued MEQs themselves (including the enemy CSMs), that leaves just Imperial Guard/Scions as the Imperial faction(s) which can't field bolter troops (or better) as their main guys, and then Tyranids, GSC, Harlies, and Daemons as enemy factions without a bolter/bolter +1 standard-issue rifle. If anything, the boltgun is on the tabletop what the lasgun is in the fluff.

I think Deathwatch is one of the better designed codexes in recent history. I mean that in the sense that their rules match their fluff.

Minus a few FAQ/Errata snafus they do exactly what they're meant to do: tear up Xenos threat as a small, elite, shock army.

They're awesome taken as a formation to compliment another army, usually in a task-specific role (ie: delete x unit upon arrival).

While you can field a solely Deathwatch army via their "decurion" style detachment or a standard CAD, they won't stand much of a chance in anything resembling a competitive environment.

Comparing them to vanilla marines is a bit of an injustice. They can compliment a marine army very well though by filling out a role that your particular chapter may have difficulties dealing with. Typically for me it involves dealing with enemy units that rely on cover by using the excellent frag-cannon combined with a sergeant carrying an auspex (the most underrated piece of wargear in the marine arsenal point-wise).

They actually do alright in a competitive setting - I'd rank them as mid-tier. They can crank out a win against any faction and most top tier lists, they fall back in rank because there are a few competitive lists they simply can't scratch.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
They actually do alright in a competitive setting - I'd rank them as mid-tier. They can crank out a win against any faction and most top tier lists, they fall back in rank because there are a few competitive lists they simply can't scratch.

True, but are very elite. Getting used to this army and their playstyle takes time, because with low model count and high point cost it's tough for most players to perfect a strong competitive list.

stewe128 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
They actually do alright in a competitive setting - I'd rank them as mid-tier. They can crank out a win against any faction and most top tier lists, they fall back in rank because there are a few competitive lists they simply can't scratch.

True, but are very elite. Getting used to this army and their playstyle takes time, because with low model count and high point cost it's tough for most players to perfect a strong competitive list.

You aren't wrong, the small model number is a hamstring - they'll never beat Bark Star, same with Tau overwatch shenannigans, AM MSU.