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2017/02/23 02:15:25
Subject: What's The Best 1,000 Point Genestealer Cult List For A Doubles Tournament?
Well seeing as Genestealer cult don't have access to a LOW, you're all set.
As far as a formation goes, you should check if a formation detachment is allowed. Can you take the detachment that allows a bunch of formations (cult insurrection detachment)? Technically it's more than one formation, but it's all one detachment.
If you can, absolutely take that formation. Take a subterranean uprising with a brood cycle and a patriarch + primus + magus.
If you can't take more than one formation, just take a subterranean uprising with a primus and 3-4 squads of 10 acolytes w/a banner and 2 rock saws in each squad, plus a 10 man metamorph squad w/claws. Take a Combined Arms detachment alongside that with 2 patriarchs, a couple minimum acolyte squads and as many gene stealers as you have points for.
2017/02/23 03:24:43
Subject: Re:What's The Best 1,000 Point Genestealer Cult List For A Doubles Tournament?
Is what I'd use. Yours isn't bad I just think this is a little more optimized. Generstealer scything talons are a trap upgrade, as is a saw in a 5 man unit.
2017/02/23 03:36:35
Subject: Re:What's The Best 1,000 Point Genestealer Cult List For A Doubles Tournament?
Absolutely true. But remember that your saws are I 1. So if there aren't enough guys in the squad to take the shots at I4, your saw will die before it can swing.
2017/02/23 06:32:26
Subject: What's The Best 1,000 Point Genestealer Cult List For A Doubles Tournament?
The comp restrictions mean no Cult Insurrection, which means nothing outside the Stealers and SubUp has Infiltrate, so your Patriarchs either join a SubUp unit and cost them the 2D6 Ambush roll, or they both join your Stealers and get in each other's way.
It also means no Numbers Beyond Counting, so you're going to want max psykers for Telepathic Summons. Something like:
Something like that. 8 Warp charges, 9 rolls on Broodmind, 2 Fearless bubbles, 2 Adamantium Will bubbles, 12 units in total rolling on Cult Ambush, 10 if you hold the Maguses back to try for casting.
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2017/02/23 09:29:44
Subject: Re:What's The Best 1,000 Point Genestealer Cult List For A Doubles Tournament?
It's a doubles tournament, so you're teaming up with somebody, right? Nice to know what you're ally is bringing. How does you warp charge interact with each other, for example.
I've seen a few lists you posted and I think you should really try to leave out the expensive upgrades. Compared to regular acolytes/metamorphs, rocksaws bring nothing to the table you cannot handle anyway. Only armor 13/14 can pose a problem but Metamorph's with claws can also deal with that.
I also don't understand that players add regular genestealer units. They're a little bit tougher but still to expensive compared to regular acolytes. If genestealers are a bit harder to remove then the enemy just focuses on the other units.
I would go for the double CAD list that BBAP suggest, but I would leave out the genestealers and get more neophytes/acolytes. If you're ally can also use a defence line then that could be an option to.
2017/02/23 09:53:15
Subject: Re:What's The Best 1,000 Point Genestealer Cult List For A Doubles Tournament?
shogun wrote: I also don't understand that players add regular genestealer units.
Normally I'd agree, but Hybrids don't get Infiltrate by default so you can't join a Patriarch to any of those units outside of a Cult Insurrection. Purestrains at least have Infiltrate so the Pats don't need to deploy solo.
Yet another example of comp restrictions shafting Genestealer Cults, I think.
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2017/02/23 11:53:23
Subject: Re:What's The Best 1,000 Point Genestealer Cult List For A Doubles Tournament?
shogun wrote: I also don't understand that players add regular genestealer units.
Normally I'd agree, but Hybrids don't get Infiltrate by default so you can't join a Patriarch to any of those units outside of a Cult Insurrection. Purestrains at least have Infiltrate so the Pats don't need to deploy solo.
Yet another example of comp restrictions shafting Genestealer Cults, I think.
But if the rest of your army is not infiltrating, then what is the point? I would then deploy and go into the shadows anyway:
shogun wrote: But if the rest of your army is not infiltrating, then what is the point?
... that you can't attach an IC with Infiltrate to a squad without it at Deployment. If you don't take the Purestrains or a SubUp then you have to deploy the Patriarchs alone.
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2017/02/23 13:14:30
Subject: Re:What's The Best 1,000 Point Genestealer Cult List For A Doubles Tournament?
shogun wrote: But if the rest of your army is not infiltrating, then what is the point?
... that you can't attach an IC with Infiltrate to a squad without it at Deployment. If you don't take the Purestrains or a SubUp then you have to deploy the Patriarchs alone.
Where does it say that?
Rulebook FAQ:
Q: Are models with the Infiltrate special rule allowed to not use the rule to deploy and then charge normally in the first turn?
A: Yes.
2017/02/23 13:46:46
Subject: What's The Best 1,000 Point Genestealer Cult List For A Doubles Tournament?
"Page 166 – Independent Character, Independent Characters and Infiltrate
Change this sentence to read:‘An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment, and vice versa.’"
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2017/02/23 14:55:16
Subject: What's The Best 1,000 Point Genestealer Cult List For A Doubles Tournament?
"Page 166 – Independent Character, Independent Characters and Infiltrate
Change this sentence to read:‘An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment, and vice versa.’"
INDEPENDENT CHARACTERS
Q: Infiltrate rules state that an Independent Character without Infiltrate cannot join a squad of Infiltrators. Does this mean a squad that is actively Infiltrating or just any unit that has the Infiltrate rule? This matters for things like Outflank (granted freely by the Infiltrate rule) and Infiltrate units that have Deep Strike.
A: An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment, whether they are Infiltrating, Deep Striking or Outflanking. They are free to join units as they wish after deployment.
There is no 'vice versa' in this.
2017/02/23 15:06:13
Subject: What's The Best 1,000 Point Genestealer Cult List For A Doubles Tournament?
"Page 166 – Independent Character, Independent Characters and Infiltrate Change this sentence to read:‘An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment, and vice versa.’"
INDEPENDENT CHARACTERS
Q: Infiltrate rules state that an Independent Character without Infiltrate cannot join a squad of Infiltrators. Does this mean a squad that is actively Infiltrating or just any unit that has the Infiltrate rule? This matters for things like Outflank (granted freely by the Infiltrate rule) and Infiltrate units that have Deep Strike.
A: An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment, whether they are Infiltrating, Deep Striking or Outflanking. They are free to join units as they wish after deployment.
There is no 'vice versa' in this.
Right, but the FAQ adds "and vice versa" to the "Independent Characters and Infiltrate" section of the BRB, so ICs with Infiltrate can't join units without it at deployment.
What you're quoting there tells us how to deal with a situation in which the IC doesn't have Infiltrate but the unit does. It's the reason CAD Maguses can't join Genestealers at deployment. The "vice versa" is the reason Patriarchs can't join CAD Acolytes at deployment.
EDIT: It's not in the "Questions" section; it's in the "Errata" section on page 1 of the FAQ here:
"Page 166 – Independent Character, Independent Characters and Infiltrate
Change this sentence to read:‘An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment, and vice versa.’"
INDEPENDENT CHARACTERS
Q: Infiltrate rules state that an Independent Character without Infiltrate cannot join a squad of Infiltrators. Does this mean a squad that is actively Infiltrating or just any unit that has the Infiltrate rule? This matters for things like Outflank (granted freely by the Infiltrate rule) and Infiltrate units that have Deep Strike.
A: An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment, whether they are Infiltrating, Deep Striking or Outflanking. They are free to join units as they wish after deployment.
There is no 'vice versa' in this.
Right, but the FAQ adds "and vice versa" to the "Independent Characters and Infiltrate" section of the BRB, so ICs with Infiltrate can't join units without it at deployment.
What you're quoting there tells us how to deal with a situation in which the IC doesn't have Infiltrate but the unit does. It's the reason CAD Maguses can't join Genestealers at deployment. The "vice versa" is the reason Patriarchs can't join CAD Acolytes at deployment.
EDIT: It's not in the "Questions" section; it's in the "Errata" section on page 1 of the FAQ here:
I think that they're referring to units that actually infiltrate instead of simply having the 'infiltrate' rule.
Because this rule:
Q: Are models with the Infiltrate special rule allowed to not use the rule to deploy and then charge normally in the first turn?
A: Yes.
Allows units to deploy normally. So that means that an Independent character can deploy normally but cannot join a unit if only one of them got infiltrate? Weird. Don't think it's RAI but whatever.
This could be a good reason to have genestealers but the Magus is not allowed to join because genestealers only tolerate a Patriarch.
2017/02/23 18:22:06
Subject: What's The Best 1,000 Point Genestealer Cult List For A Doubles Tournament?
Bringing normal genestealers is actually great, especially in a CAD. Getting stealth always and the ability to actually take a save vs ignores cover is huge.
Obviously the tier list goes:
1) First Curse in a Cult Insurrection Detachment
2) Genestealers in a Brood Cycle in a Cult Insurrection Detachment
3) Genestealers in a First Curse and no other detachment
4) Genestealers in a Brood Cycle and no other detachment
5) Normal genestealers
The shrouded turn 1 is beyond amazing for the stealers. A big blob of them is impossible to ignore and will regularly get turn 2 and sometimes even turn 1 charges. If they're in the insurrection detachment, they'll have shrouded since they natively have infiltrate.
Since OP can't bring a detachment of formations, you'd normally be down to option 3, but you can't because Subterranean is much better, which also tosses option 4 out the window.
Just because it's the 5th best choice doesn't mean it's bad. He's just working with the restrictions that he's given. Does that mean that he can compete with a Daemons CAD, a Necrons CAD, a Tau CAD, an Eldar CAD, etc? Probably not unless he rolls a bunch of 6's because they don't need multiple formations to be competitive.
But I still think you can do a lot of great work with genestealers. They have 3 rolls by the start of turn 1 to get their 6, which is just as good as the subterranean. Double rolls on the WL table plus their normal roll. I have used them every game and the only times they've disappointed me (once) was because I made a mistake with them, not because they underperformed.
2017/02/23 19:30:39
Subject: What's The Best 1,000 Point Genestealer Cult List For A Doubles Tournament?
shogun wrote:I think that they're referring to units that actually infiltrate instead of simply having the 'infiltrate' rule.
But the FAQ you quoted before says a unit having Infiltrate is enough to bar an IC from joining it - it doesn't matter how it deploys, if the IC doesn't have Infiltrate then they can't join it at deployment. It wouldn't be different for the case where an IC with Infiltrate is joining a unit without.
This could be a good reason to have genestealers but the Magus is not allowed to join because genestealers only tolerate a Patriarch.
Totally forgot about that. There's 2 reasons they can't join then, lol
luke1705 wrote:Bringing normal genestealers is actually great, especially in a CAD. Getting stealth always and the ability to actually take a save vs ignores cover is huge.
It's not, really. If they were 3++ or even 4++ then maybe, but it's a 5++ save. They're not significantly more survivable than the Hybrids, certainly not tough enough to justify the massive 3-6pts per model cost increase. Even with I6 removing models before the strike-back it's not enough, in my view; certainly not in a Cult Insurrection army. In a CAD army, where you have no Numbers Beyond Counting to replenish casualties, the case for them becomes a little stronger, but I still think you're better off with more bodies rather than better bodies. The dudes are going to die anyway, might as well let them die cheap and bring more of them.
Obviously the tier list goes:
1) First Curse in a Cult Insurrection Detachment
2) Genestealers in a Brood Cycle in a Cult Insurrection Detachment
3) Genestealers in a First Curse and no other detachment
4) Genestealers in a Brood Cycle and no other detachment
5) Normal genestealers
... in the case of Stealers, maybe. I'd put every flavour of Hybrid way above all of those though because they're so much cheaper and do much the same job. Every Acolyte and Talon-Morph is essentially a Genestealer. Every Whip-Morph is an I7 Genestealer and every Claw-Morph is an S6 Genestealer.
I'd put Neophytes above them too; I can have 3, more or less, for every Purestrain, and they have guns too.
The only reason I suggested Stealers in my CADs is so the Patriarch doesn't need to deploy alone. If there were any sensible way around that then I wouldn't bother with Purestrains at all.
79 models, 8 Warp charges, 9 rolls on Broodmind. 2 Fearless bubbles, 2 AW bubbles. Three units have Infiltrate so your Patriarch can join those - they lose the 2D6 Ambush rolls but that's forgivable. If you wanted to add a defence line or whatever you could ditch an Acolyte unit and/ or a Morph unit from each CAD until it fits.
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2017/02/23 23:06:14
Subject: What's The Best 1,000 Point Genestealer Cult List For A Doubles Tournament?
"Page 166 – Independent Character, Independent Characters and Infiltrate
Change this sentence to read:‘An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment, and vice versa.’"
INDEPENDENT CHARACTERS
Q: Infiltrate rules state that an Independent Character without Infiltrate cannot join a squad of Infiltrators. Does this mean a squad that is actively Infiltrating or just any unit that has the Infiltrate rule? This matters for things like Outflank (granted freely by the Infiltrate rule) and Infiltrate units that have Deep Strike.
A: An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment, whether they are Infiltrating, Deep Striking or Outflanking. They are free to join units as they wish after deployment.
There is no 'vice versa' in this.
Right, but the FAQ adds "and vice versa" to the "Independent Characters and Infiltrate" section of the BRB, so ICs with Infiltrate can't join units without it at deployment.
What you're quoting there tells us how to deal with a situation in which the IC doesn't have Infiltrate but the unit does. It's the reason CAD Maguses can't join Genestealers at deployment. The "vice versa" is the reason Patriarchs can't join CAD Acolytes at deployment.
EDIT: It's not in the "Questions" section; it's in the "Errata" section on page 1 of the FAQ here:
I think that they're referring to units that actually infiltrate instead of simply having the 'infiltrate' rule.
Because this rule:
Q: Are models with the Infiltrate special rule allowed to not use the rule to deploy and then charge normally in the first turn?
A: Yes.
Allows units to deploy normally. So that means that an Independent character can deploy normally but cannot join a unit if only one of them got infiltrate? Weird. Don't think it's RAI but whatever.
This could be a good reason to have genestealers but the Magus is not allowed to join because genestealers only tolerate a Patriarch.
This Infiltrating characters thing has raised a rather large issue - ALL cult characters, bar the Iconward, have Infiltrate native. That means, in a CAD, you can never join your Magos or Primus to a unit in deployment, which is pretty dumb. Guess all the more reason to stick them in big units from the Brood cycle, or a Sub Uprising, but it really restricts our options quite a bit!
2017/02/23 23:31:08
Subject: What's The Best 1,000 Point Genestealer Cult List For A Doubles Tournament?
Holy poop - the Magus does have Infiltrate. I dunno why I never noticed that before - the whole reason I include Neophytes whenever I have Maguses in a CAD is because I just assumed they didn't have Infiltrate and thus couldn't join Insurrection units at deployment. Now they can. Holy poop.
So, not only do comp formats that reject MFDs gimp the Genestealer Cults, they make them borderline unplayable as an army. Nice one, ego-boos.
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2017/02/24 18:39:46
Subject: Re:What's The Best 1,000 Point Genestealer Cult List For A Doubles Tournament?
I don't get the Saws. Against vehicles they cause Explodes results, which kill your dudes, and while you can just use the Rending Claws to avoid that it makes the Saw a pointless purchase. Against non-vehicles the only real advantage of the Saws over Rending is that they double out T4 and ignore its FNP, which isn't a big deficiency. Each Saw is 4 less Acolytes or 2 less Morphs you're taking, and the guys with the Saws aren't any more difficult to kill than the dudes without. You're doing marginally more damage in exchange for having substantially fewer bodies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/25 01:12:37
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2017/02/25 07:21:27
Subject: Re:What's The Best 1,000 Point Genestealer Cult List For A Doubles Tournament?
Question: Do you keep adding the saws because you got the models and you want to use them? Because BBAP and I keep telling you that it is a bad idea but you keep adding them in.
At 1000 points GSC do very well because the got the numbers, but you should ditch the primus, familiar, banner, rock saws for more bodies. Primus-zaelot is nice but for this amount of points you could have 10 acolytes that got 40 attacks on the charge.
Also: what is your plan? The CAD got no Infiltrate so you got no first turn cult ambush, so that means that only half your army can deploy in their face. Your better off with second turn cult ambush and for that I would suggest a defence line.
2017/02/25 15:30:06
Subject: Re:What's The Best 1,000 Point Genestealer Cult List For A Doubles Tournament?
Your Rending dudes all have 3 attacks base; 5 of them take 20 swings on the charge, hitting on 3s. Fishing for 6s on a handful of to-hit dice is bad. Once you're rolling 15-60 to-hit dice it's less "fishing" and more a matter of how many you'll get. GSC min-squad Rending is a reasonably safe bet to take out AV10-11 in one turn - safer than a 4-swing Saw at any rate. 10-15 dudes will probably kill a 3HP AV12+ vehicle inside a turn. I've killed a Land Raider in one fight sub-phase with 5 Claw-Morphs before now.
Each Saw costs you 8-12 Rending attacks; 8 at S6 or 12 at S4. It also costs you bodies in list-building, and Exploding a vehicle in CC **will** kill your Acolytes.
If you have limited models then that's all academic, but if you're looking to expand the army in future the first thing I'd do is ditch the Saws and bring more dudes.
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