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Made in us
Bounding Dark Angels Assault Marine





Hey guys. I'm a long time Dark Angels player and love my Deathwing. I haven't used the models in a looooonnnnngggg time though. Same goes with my dreadnoughts. There are just so many other places that I'd rather put points that are way more cost efficient I can't bring myself to play them. At least not in competitive games. Here's the issues/reasons I have for not playing them:

Terminators
- 2+ save isn't what it used to be with so much AP2/Grav/D running around
- 5++ again isn't what it used to be. 1 volley from a grav dev squad will pretty much wipe them out
- Mobility - it's pretty terrible.
- Transports - Drop pods aside, we have Land Raiders - not a fan of these either. It's not terrible but not great . Plus its a huge amount of points to sink into one unit (once you through terminators inside of it) that can honestly be killed pretty easily.
- Points - I feel like most terminator units are over costed once you consider what they bring to the table. I mean 200 points for some storm bolters and power fist? You can give them the TH/SS but other than stuff like the AOIF the BA have, getting them into combat is still an issue

Dreadnoughts

- Fragile - I don't understand how terminators where Tactical Dreadnought armor and have a 2+/5++ when a Dreadnought with the SAME armor has no save whatsoever? AND their armor can be glanced to death by boltguns from behind.
- Vehicle - why?
- Mobility - Same problems that Terminators have but no deep strike outside of drop pods.
- Weapons - they are still using standard imperial weapons when the rest of 40K has moved on

For terminators, I'm not really sure how to fix them. Maybe lower the points cost? Give them a slightly better invul save? Allow them to charge the turn the arrive? Give them grav cannons? I don't know where viable becomes op here. I mean, I get that the fluff can't always match up to the game but terminators are pretty easy to kill now days which I hate considering when you read the lore they are damn near unstoppable.

For Dreadnoughts, I really wish they'd make them a MC with a toughness value and an armor save. Maybe 2+/5++ and FnP? At the very least I feel like they should have a 2+/5++ like terminators and maybe a grav option with an option to give it FnP for x amount of points. I could easily get behind that.

Neither of these really solves the mobility issues though. I'm also not trying to make the answer "GRAV" for everything, I just want to be able to use all the cool models I have collecting dust without getting ROFL stomped on the tabletop.

I do feel like GW may be trying with stuff like the AOIF the BA just got but thats just one faction. I want something that all SM can use, regardless of chapter.

So Dakkanites! What's your thought, ideas, concerns?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/02/23 21:58:54


Dark Angels - 8000
Blood Angels - 4000
Astra Militarum - 2000
 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




It never was viable. Except maybe in 4th.

There are not many viable fixes, as the crappiness of the stormbolter is one of the roots of their problems. The other problems being lack of speed and durability vs critical weapon types.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/23 21:41:50


 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





the problem with terminators is they're defensive units in an offensive game. 40k on a whole rewards big firepower brought in as fast and cheaply as possiable, TDA however is heavy defences (for infantry) with firepower not a whole lot better then a tatical squad.

if 8th edition somehow made it more important to be able to take hits then dish em out (don't ask me how. short of turning almost all the AP 2 S8+ weapons to AP3 S7 or something not sure how that'd happen) then terminators might be useful.

that said termies are likely going to have some situational uses, a codex that can get cheap OS termies is apt to be able to make some use of em.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Bounding Dark Angels Assault Marine





Martel732 wrote:
It never was viable. Except maybe in 4th.

There are not many viable fixes, as the crappiness of the stormbolter is one of the roots of their problems. The other problems being lack of speed and durability vs critical weapon types.


I agree with the stormbolter bits. I want to say maybe increase its RoF but then again it's still just a boltgun with a few more shots. I don't know how to increase the duribility with saves. If you bump it down it kind of defeats the purpose of a storm shield. Each model having 2 wounds and a higher toughness could help.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
the problem with terminators is they're defensive units in an offensive game. 40k on a whole rewards big firepower brought in as fast and cheaply as possiable, TDA however is heavy defences (for infantry) with firepower not a whole lot better then a tatical squad.

if 8th edition somehow made it more important to be able to take hits then dish em out (don't ask me how. short of turning almost all the AP 2 S8+ weapons to AP3 S7 or something not sure how that'd happen) then terminators might be useful.

that said termies are likely going to have some situational uses, a codex that can get cheap OS termies is apt to be able to make some use of em.


I hate that. In fluff they are a major offensive unit. Send them in to crack the wall so that everyone else can flood in behind them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, i found some batreps over at Spikey Bits where they made up rules giving Dreadnoughts a toughness value, armor saves and more wounds. They seemed to be completely usable after that. They weren't game breaking but at least it didn't feel like a total waste having one.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/02/23 22:00:28


Dark Angels - 8000
Blood Angels - 4000
Astra Militarum - 2000
 
   
Made in us
Implacable Black Templar Initiate



USA

What we've been asking for for forever: Either have TDA increase toughness or add a wound. Hell, GK got an extra wound for (some of) theirs... Seriously, a marine just sitting on a motorcycle instantly gets increased toughness, but the marine that dons TDA, super actual armor, gets... nothing.


What Vanilla Marines got: A points reduction... yawn...

Agreed with the previously stated Storm Bolter problem as well. Don't know exactly what I would give them in place (assault cannons ha!), but Storm Bolters are very lackluster.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/23 23:05:43


 
   
Made in au
Unrelenting Rubric Terminator of Tzeentch





Marines are 14 ppm (before you take free transports into consideration) for 1W 3+.
Terminators are 35ppm for 1W 2+/5++, so a marine is more resiliant to small arms fire (the bane of terminators) per point. Now, granted, the extra 3.5 ppm model pays for a fist, 5++, deepstrike, relentless and +1Ld, but when you've got the same or half the damage output as tacticals for the points, having a fist and a token save against ap2 just isn't worth it, especially when you're giving up ObSec and free drop pods/razors/rhinos against tacticals.

Centurions have made it almost impossible to balance terminators since the best solution would have been to give them a second wound at their old points cost, but now Cents do the same thing but with T5 and grav. Their (Tactical Termies) firepower is still terrible however, but allowing them to take 2 heavy weapons per 5 would have been an OK solution (though I think I would have dropped all weapon options by 5 points too at their old cost).

 Peregrine wrote:
What, you don't like rolling dice to see how many dice you roll? Why are you such an anti-dice bigot?
 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Assault Cannons baseline at no additional points cost. If they can't kill things they will never be worthwhile. All this talk about +1 wound or toughness is missing the point of what 40k is about now.
   
Made in us
Implacable Black Templar Initiate



USA

As stated Centurions were the Deathknell of Terminators.

Swing an unweildly power weapon at initiative? Check.
Bring more firepower? Check.
Better toughness AND an extra wound for wearing 'super' armor? Check.

There's no room left for Terminator armor to be improved.

They still have relentless, while weilding assault profile weapons (minus the ones that can be purchased), deep strike/teleport, but make sure you don't try to assault and that's about it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/23 23:55:00


 
   
Made in us
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'




Alaska

Oppressor wrote:
As stated Centurions were the Deathknell of Terminators.

The Centurion models are cool, but yeah they seem to be a "fix" for both Terminators and Dreadnoughts while leaving both of those classic units out in the cold.

Maybe if 8th is more AOS-like with things tending to have more wounds Terminators could be a middle-ground between regular Marines and Centurions? Like, regular Marine one wound, Terminator two wounds, Centurion three wounds? Plus a few other things to differentiate them from each other, like Deep Strike.

YELL REAL LOUD AN' CARRY A BIG CHOPPA! 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Centurions, Grav, Plasma, Scatterlasers and such were not what killed Loyalist Terminators. They weren't good to begin with at all. Full stop. They weren't good at being defensive, they weren't good at being offensive, and they weren't good at being bodyguards.

The only way to really separate the Centurions and Terminators from each other is making Terminators actually fulfill the role they were supposed to. People here (especially here) LIKE to think Terminators were meant for a defensive role, even though they weren't good at it to begin with. Hence why I always make literally the same suggestions every time: boost the offensive power for their points.

1. Make Storm Bolters S5. This fits more in line with what Terminators want to hit and shoot with their heavy weapons.
2. Let them take two Heavy Weapons per five guys. Maybe do the Skitarii thing and let them take another at 10 dudes.
3. Assault Cannon is 15 points. With S5 Storm Bolters you want more a reason to take it compared to a Cyclone + Bolter.
4. Lightning Claw Terminators are 30 points base and the TH/SS variant is 5 points extra. Honestly otherwise I'd have no reason to take them compared to Assault Centurions, Vanguard, and Honour Guard.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in au
Lady of the Lake






Stormbolters S5 causes more issues though, they need their own version of the thing and that can be S5.

   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine





Mississippi

Terminators need the following to be, in my opinion, viable.

First, they need ONE of the two options (not both):

+1 Toughness for wearing Terminator Armor (Across the board)
OR
+1 Wound for wearing Terminator Armor (Standard increase for any characters that purchase it)

I personally prefer the second option.

This would allow for people to actually choose it as an option for an HQ choice instead of Artificer Armor + Bike or Artificer Armor + Jump Pack.

Lastly, I would like to see standard Terminator Armor confer a better invulnerable save if there are three (or more) terminators standing in coherency with each other. Basically standard terminator armor confers a 5++ save, if you have 3 or more terminator armored models in coherency with each other the invulnerable save improves to a 4++. The save cannot be improved beyond a 4++ with this effect, however this does not apply to wargear (Storm Shields) which can confer a better invulnerable save.

Just my opinion on that. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

You don't know me son, so I'll explain this to you once: If I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed.  
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




The solution to fixing terminator has to keep in mind that Chaos Terminators exist as well. So while making Storm Bolters assault 3 may help, it doesn't do anything to help Chaos. Similarly, granting +1 toughness also can get excessive when you factor in Mark of Nurgle.

Problems to solve:
-Expensive.
-Too weak against massed fire.
-Too weak against the AP2 spam of the current game.
-Poor assault unit.
-Poor ranged unit.

Solution:
-Change Terminator Armor rules to grant you a 2+ save, a 5++ invulnerable save, +1 wound, and FNP.

This will make them more worth their cost, solve the weaknesses to weight of fire without overpowering them due to MoN T6 terminators and make them better against AP2 weapons.

-Changed all units in the game to simply have an option to purchase a transport if they do today. Introduce the Dedicated Transport special rule that allows specific units (like Terminators and Land Raiders) to take their specific transport at a points reduction.

This will solve some of the assault terminator problems.

-Change Terminators in general to allow 1 in 2 upgrade to an assault cannon/auto cannon for 10/5pts. That should solve some of the ranged problems.
   
Made in us
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'




Alaska

 n0t_u wrote:
Stormbolters S5 causes more issues though, they need their own version of the thing and that can be S5.

This could make sense as IIRC in the fluff they talk about Terminators being able to mount Assault Cannons because of their heavy armor, but even still it was a toned down Assault Cannon with a lower rate of fire. Maybe the same reasoning could mean that Terminators can handle a Stormbolter with a higher rate of fire?

Would making a Terminator Stormbolter some combination of Assault 3, Shred, and/or Twin-Linked (probably not all three) be as good as S5?

YELL REAL LOUD AN' CARRY A BIG CHOPPA! 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





here's an (admittingly insane) idea. "Terminators no longer grant a 2+ ARMOR save, instead they give a +2 INVUL save.

it'd certainly restore the status as "kings of tough"

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




BrianDavion wrote:
here's an (admittingly insane) idea. "Terminators no longer grant a 2+ ARMOR save, instead they give a +2 INVUL save.

it'd certainly restore the status as "kings of tough"


You'd think this would work, but this would probably have the least impact overall.
   
Made in us
Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine






And promptly lead to more 2+invul ignoring weapons, thus renewing the cycle. I'd rather them just have FNP and paladins have eternal warrior. Or all of them go up to toughness 5 or 6.

4500
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 n0t_u wrote:
Stormbolters S5 causes more issues though, they need their own version of the thing and that can be S5.

Literally ZERO issues are caused by a S5 universal Storm Bolter. Name one. Please. I insist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Red__Thirst wrote:
Terminators need the following to be, in my opinion, viable.

First, they need ONE of the two options (not both):

+1 Toughness for wearing Terminator Armor (Across the board)
OR
+1 Wound for wearing Terminator Armor (Standard increase for any characters that purchase it)

I personally prefer the second option.

This would allow for people to actually choose it as an option for an HQ choice instead of Artificer Armor + Bike or Artificer Armor + Jump Pack.

Lastly, I would like to see standard Terminator Armor confer a better invulnerable save if there are three (or more) terminators standing in coherency with each other. Basically standard terminator armor confers a 5++ save, if you have 3 or more terminator armored models in coherency with each other the invulnerable save improves to a 4++. The save cannot be improved beyond a 4++ with this effect, however this does not apply to wargear (Storm Shields) which can confer a better invulnerable save.

Just my opinion on that. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

And then you're failing to take into consideration Paladins and MegaNobz and Chaos Terminators (Death Guard Terminators would be 2 Wounds with FNP). Seriously, what are you going to do to fix those issues?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nvs wrote:
The solution to fixing terminator has to keep in mind that Chaos Terminators exist as well. So while making Storm Bolters assault 3 may help, it doesn't do anything to help Chaos. Similarly, granting +1 toughness also can get excessive when you factor in Mark of Nurgle.

Problems to solve:
-Expensive.
-Too weak against massed fire.
-Too weak against the AP2 spam of the current game.
-Poor assault unit.
-Poor ranged unit.

Solution:
-Change Terminator Armor rules to grant you a 2+ save, a 5++ invulnerable save, +1 wound, and FNP.

This will make them more worth their cost, solve the weaknesses to weight of fire without overpowering them due to MoN T6 terminators and make them better against AP2 weapons.

-Changed all units in the game to simply have an option to purchase a transport if they do today. Introduce the Dedicated Transport special rule that allows specific units (like Terminators and Land Raiders) to take their specific transport at a points reduction.

This will solve some of the assault terminator problems.

-Change Terminators in general to allow 1 in 2 upgrade to an assault cannon/auto cannon for 10/5pts. That should solve some of the ranged problems.

Chaos Terminators are fine as is, but the Combi-Bolter should be Rapid Fire 2 as it is literally two Bolters strapped together.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/02/24 02:44:39


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Using Object Source Lighting





Portland

They become a lot stronger against light vehicles? It might do some abusive things in Sternguard vet units?


My painted armies (40k, WM/H, Malifaux, Infinity...) 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




BrianDavion wrote:
here's an (admittingly insane) idea. "Terminators no longer grant a 2+ ARMOR save, instead they give a +2 INVUL save.

it'd certainly restore the status as "kings of tough"

They were never the king of that outside the people that didn't do the math once.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





What has always killed me was when you buy a blister it always came with more special weapons than any list was going to let you use.

I'd like to see a bit more staying power. Toughness maybe or a wound or something.

Then I want every one (or at least a much greater density than today) to be able to come with whatever weapon you want. Assault cannons, chainfists,etc. And give them special ammo if the stick with bolter types. It'd also be nice if the removed unwieldy and other melee weapon hinderances.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 spiralingcadaver wrote:
They become a lot stronger against light vehicles? It might do some abusive things in Sternguard vet units?

You think S5 Storm Bolters would be abusive In Sternguard squads?
I literally laughed out loud at work at the mere thought of that being an issue. Also, if Pulse Rifles aren't an issue to rhinos, ya know the guns on a basic troop, they won't be an issue on a 175 point Terminator squad.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

What about giving terminators a tactical teleport option, such as in Dawn of War 2? Would let them get to objectives or to enemies to attack much easier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also-- I don't object to Storm Bolters being made BETTER than they currently are. But I think it'd be better to up their shots per model rather than their strength. They're just really rapid fire boltguns, not heavy boltguns. 24" S4 AP5 Assault 2 Twin Linked, or Assault 3, either one would make htem better without necessarily requiring them to have a points increase IMO. I like the TL option much better but I know a lot of people really hate TL weapons right now (which is fair, but it's still better than the current statline).

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/02/24 03:01:58


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine





Mississippi

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

And then you're failing to take into consideration Paladins and MegaNobz and Chaos Terminators (Death Guard Terminators would be 2 Wounds with FNP). Seriously, what are you going to do to fix those issues?


Paladins already have the +1 wound profile. They would just become more standardized. Just leave the stats as-is with additional other benefits (Feel no Pain, additional attacks, etc.) they already have.

Same thing for Meganobz. They already have a 2 wound profile. Just leave them as is.

The +1 wound would only come in to play if you purchase the terminator armor for a character or model that doesn't have it as standard. Simple.

It's just changing the stat lines for models/units that have terminator armor on as standard.

I also fail to see the issue with Chaos Terminators, or death guard terminators, having 2 wounds (and FnP for death guard). They don't have eternal warrior, and will still die to enough concentrated firepower, but won't get picked up as soon as they land.

I fail to see an issue that needs to be fixed? Seriously. The sky isn't falling man. Just saying.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-


You don't know me son, so I'll explain this to you once: If I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed.  
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




It's hard to justify giving them a wound when centurions only have two wounds.
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





Martel732 wrote:
It's hard to justify giving them a wound when centurions only have two wounds.


I disagree, centurions having 2 wounds IMHO would be a good justifcation for doing so

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'




Alaska

 Melissia wrote:
What about giving terminators a tactical teleport option, such as in Dawn of War 2? Would let them get to objectives or to enemies to attack much easier.

That would be pretty cool, as long as they had the ability to do damage when they get there.

YELL REAL LOUD AN' CARRY A BIG CHOPPA! 
   
Made in us
Using Object Source Lighting





Portland

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You think S5 Storm Bolters would be abusive In Sternguard squads?
I literally laughed out loud at work at the mere thought of that being an issue. Also, if Pulse Rifles aren't an issue to rhinos, ya know the guns on a basic troop, they won't be an issue on a 175 point Terminator squad.
It could change internal faction balance in unforeseen ways and might boost something else over actually helping terminators, for whatever that's worth in 40k's pile of imbalanced stuff. No reason to be a jerk about it, I was just making a suggestion.


My painted armies (40k, WM/H, Malifaux, Infinity...) 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




BrianDavion wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
It's hard to justify giving them a wound when centurions only have two wounds.


I disagree, centurions having 2 wounds IMHO would be a good justifcation for doing so


Shocking. People don't agree on this topic.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




There's just too much stuff that gets around their 2+ armor. Deep strike isn't all that anymore, there are much better ways for other units to get around. They're suppose to be slow but tough, but in reality they're no longer hard to take down.

I guess you can either make them cheaper, either lower cost or give them their heavy weapon options at a big discount... or something would have to change with the core rules where a 2+ armor save and their invul save was actually worth more than double the cost of a vanilla marine.
   
 
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