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He says that almost all conversions are lazy and bad and are basicly proxying. Can you give me some good counterarguments in the form of some stuff you've done or seen?

If that's how he views it that's how he views it, we're not going to have a random argument that is going to magically change his mind. If you are trying to approach it from the "but look how cool they are while maintaining WYSIWYG", then google images for whatever model you're trying to convince him of.

With that said, without you understanding where he's coming from, and WHY he thinks what he thinks, you're not going to convince him. Show him all the pretty pictures in the world, but if he views it as proxying because they are not the model exactly as supplied, then you're never going to get anywhere.

Also, you need to ask yourself why it even matters to you that he views it like that. Differences of opinion are perfectly okay in this world, especially when multiple viewpoints are valid.

I suppose another question to ask is this;

Are they wrong?

I suppose from a purist point of view there are the official GW models as they are made, and everything else is a proxy.

Not sure why that really matters, though.

Tyranid Shrieks cannot be fielded without conversions. The wings don't exist anymore.

Neither do Skyslasher swarms.


Further, how is doing all the extra work of making a conversion lazy?

Could be a front for envying the skill and imagination to do it himself. He might be playing devil's advocate if he knows it winds you up. Whatever the reason, doesn't have to matter to you.

Roller Girl Tasha Skar wrote:

I suppose from a purist point of view there are the official GW models as they are made, and everything else is a proxy.

Sure, but that would be from the point of view of an insane corporate worshipper and should rightfully be rejected.

I would say it depends entirely on the parts you use to make those conversions. If the model is WYSIWYG, conforms to the rules and the majority of the components are of GW origin, then I would be unable to comprehend why anyone would compare it to a proxy.

I find it hilarious that he thinks a beautiful exorcist conversion which combines parts from several IoM units is equal to putting an empty soda can down and saying that's an exorcist cause I marked it with an E with a permanent marker.

Also, I take it he doesn't play Orks, whom are literally designed in the lore to allow for conversions?

I don't know if there is a good counterargument to a point of view that utterly strange.

Personally i love conversions and would also be totally down with playing agains orks that were just ork smiley faces drawn on round pieces of carboard, though

 MrVulcanator wrote:
He says that almost all conversions are lazy and bad and are basicly proxying.

So?
And therefore... what?
He looks down his nose and makes snide comments?
He won't let you on anyone else he plays field them?
He smashes every conversion model that crosses his path, lights them on fire, buries them, then salts the earth to prevent other conversions from growing there?

The Grenade argument usually shuts them down.

Buy a white dwarf and show him the blanchu part or just any old army book / codex. Converting is an essential part of this hobby and it is endorsed by gw.

However some are better than others

This is a pack of Fenrisian Wolves


This is a unit of Fenrisian Wolves with all the customising the kit allows


If your friend doesn't see the problem here it isn't worth arguing with him.

Orks. Orks are your counter argument. I've seen some ork.conversions that look miles better then any official model from GW.

Simply explain the existence of rough riders. Then watch as he fails to find a counter argument.

He takes particular issue with me converting the Dark Vengeance set to nurgely chaos.

Why do you care what he thinks? If you need to find internet-spouted wisdom to justify your thoughts, the argument is already lost.

For what it's worth I think he has it backwards, though I agree with him to a point. A lot of people pass off terrible piss-poor proxies as "oh it's converted" because they slapped space marine shoulder pads on a muscle-man figure. Meh.

GW games appeal to a young audience in general, and as such you have a lot of 12-15 year olds cutting their teeth on modeling and painting. The end result is often terrible or borne out of lack of funds, etc. That tends to skew the scales to the side of "poorly done". That's just the nature of appealing to such a young crowd. Most of those kids will eventually get better and better.

 MrVulcanator wrote:
He takes particular issue with me converting the Dark Vengeance set to nurgely chaos.

Does he refuse to play against you when you use them?

If so, only play him when you don't want to use them.

If not, only play him if you don't mind him expressing the occasional opinion you disagree with.

If his opinions bother you to the point you don't enjoy playing with him, then stop playing with him.

Welcome to a common new age problem. Lots of newer and (usually, but not all the time) younger people keep seeing all the "off the shelf" kits GW puts out and thinks that must be the one and only true way, while a lot of us "old guys" remember the days when HUGE amounts of codex options had to be converted to exist. For instance, it took from 2nd edition until about 4th edition for Chaos Marines to even have an official model at all for a marine with an Autocannon despite it being a common option, and it was a single metal sculpt in the Havoks box. For years and years (and years), both sides of Marines lacked several Dreadnought weapons. Forgeworld actually gave things like Dreadnought Autocannons and Plasma Cannons to us first, years after they appeared in a codex!

Some Tyranid options? Hilarity.

Conversions are the spice of this hobby. You might as well restrict models to certain 'official' paintjobs, too. He needs to understand there's miles between a conversion and a proxy. They are not synonymous at all.

There's a person at our local store that is exactly like this. Any converting or proxying (because the model is OOP) is considered a proxy by him. He refuses to play against people that "proxy" models because it's not clear to him what models are what. This is the case for literally any unit or any amount of units. Even if the model is just a gun difference, he'll still whine about it.

It becomes a massive issue if he participates in tournaments. In just this last one the store had, he was matched up as my ALLY in a 2v2 and he constantly complained about my units not being correct. It cost us all but one game because I couldn't carry his terrible purist units hard enough.

Deodorant Tank from White Dwarf 95 says your friend's argument is invalid. With instructions on how to build it, no less.

If your friend doesn't like your conversions, tell him that he is more than welcome to buy you the "official" models and shut up about it.

He'd better be leaving all his stuff unpainted, still on the sprues, inside the box with the plastic wrap intact. Removing the plastic wrap or, Emprah forbid, cutting the plastic with a knife to get the pieces off the sprues would be converting them from the form they arrived in from the factory, and converting is just as bad as proxying.

And what about units that don't have models yet?
Granted, that's all been with Forgeworld stuff, but what do with the Macrocarid Explorator before the model for that came out?
You had to mosey on up with a Landraider of sorts, with a few Myrmidon gubbins if you wanted to WYSIWYG, unless you're just using the triple-lascannon loadout.

See, this is the kind of thinking that gets us Deathwatch Librarians that aren't allowed to ride Bikes.

Your friend is an idiot

I don't think you're friend is familiar with the hobby aspect of the game and focuses entirely too much on dice rolling.

I don't know, maybe point him to a definition of conversions. like here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniature_conversion#Types_of_conversion

Weathering is a type of conversion for example. Am I proxying an older model when I do it? What about when I file off the flash? Am I proxying a cast model for one that was scuplted?

I don't know, ask your friend where his real space marine army is. Tell him you don't like proxies.

Yech. This sounds like the kind of -OMITTED- thinking that got us the ridiculous Deathwatch options and removal of everything without a Games™ Workshop™ Model™.

 MrVulcanator wrote:
He says that almost all conversions are lazy and bad and are basicly proxying. Can you give me some good counterarguments in the form of some stuff you've done or seen?

In his defense many conversions out there are lazy and done just to be cheap. You just don't see them on Dakkadakka.

My in-progress rough riders would like to say otherwise.

 Verviedi wrote:
Yech. This sounds like the kind of -OMITTED- thinking that got us the ridiculous Deathwatch options and removal of everything without a Games™ Workshop™ Model™.

Yeah...not really.

Regarding the OP's friend...

Maybe take the time to explain that conversions can be proxies, but that isn't necessarily the case?

Example:
Billy converts a squad of Imperial Guardsmen to be holding Autoguns, which just use the normal Lasgun and Imperial Guard Infantry Squad rules.
Dave converts a squad of Imperial Guardsmen wearing Fire Warrior armor with Pulse Rifles/Carbines/Blasters and runs them as Fire Warriors of the respective teams.
George converts an Imperial Guard Officer wearing a Fire Warrior chestplate, with a CCW and Laspistol to represent the Carapace Armor upgrade that the IGO can take.


Billy's conversion "proxies" the Autoguns as Lasguns.
Dave's conversion "proxies" the Guardsmen wearing Fire Warrior armor as Fire Warriors.
George's conversion is just that, a conversion.