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Yep.

The Lasgun. Often derided for being as weak as a kitten. Maligned because it's not the mighty Bolter, or the esoteric Shuriken Catapult. Laughed at because it can't drop a rampaging Ork at 500 paces with a single shot.

Except.....that's actually bullpoop. It's an absolute miracle weapon.

Consider its advantages. First, let's look at those in the actual setting.

It's largely standardised. For an entity as sprawling and inefficient as The Imperium, that's massively important. If you wind up with the ammo crates for 348th Cadian, but you're the 4868th Valhallan - it doesn't matter. Those clips will still fit - your war effort goes on.

It's a remarkably advanced weapon kept even more remarkably simple. Few moving parts makes maintenance a cinch - certainly well within the means of all but the most primitive and backward recruiting worlds denizens. And when parts wear out, it's standardised design means it's modular. Perhaps not as flexible as its ammo here, it's still of great benefit that you need only dish out a new barrel. Unscrew the old, screw in the new, say your prayers and you're back blasting Heretics before you know it. And because it doesn't use solid ammo, jams should be non-existent - the main wear and tear is on the emitter, rather than the body.



It's ammo packs are ridiculously efficient. Auto Weapons, the closest equivalent to modern assault weapons have a clip of what, 36 rounds max? A single Lasgun power pack? Well over a hundred shots. So not only do you need to reload less (allowing for impressive sustained volleys), but your average Guardsman has room and weight to spare in their kit - all of which extends their operational range.

Background wise, against an unarmoured human they're described as being able to inflict death in a single shot - and even sever limbs with relative ease.

Now, look at the above from the perspective of a modern military. What there is not to like? I'm pretty confident that if you could knock one up as a proof of concept, matching the above criteria exactly, you would sell a stupendous number of units - both to military and civilian (though one suspects such a competent weapon would be highly restricted!) and you'd be an overnight billionaire.

So let's hear it for the not-so Humble Lasgun, the true protector of the Imperium.

the problem with that is there are multiple types of 'standard pattern las-gun' all using different ammo clips (the are all las gun power clips, but come in different sizes). Las gun is a catch all term for small arms laser weapons, much like the auto gun is a catch all for small arms solid shot weapons. Just look at the number of automatic rifles and magazine clips there are for assault rifles. Its why you have a Ryza Pattern Lasgun, a Necromunda Pattern Lasgun etc etc. These are mentioned by name simply because the are issued in such large numbers, but I imagine every forge world and weapons producing hive world have their own versions. Also changing clips between patterns would be much harder, as a clip is a single power cell at a set size and shape. At least with solid shot, there is a reasonable chance you can take the bullets out of one magazine and put them in another magazine designed for the same calibre *Not guaranteed, but a reasonable chance).

There's many patterns of Lasgun right enough - but the vast majority all use a common power cell.

Lasguns only seem to come in about 3 different power pack fittings.
A, B, and C standard. Although you might get D+ variants as well.

I've never heard of a lasgun holding 100 rounds, in DH they hold I think it was about 40.

Also I never got how a lasgun was supposedly really resilient to dirt and such. Sure it would probably still *work* but anything covering the lenses and it's firing wonky, weakened and/or simply dumping all that energy into the end of your barrel, exactly a normal rifle being fully blocked.

But still, I agree. Another massive advantage is how easy they are to train with 'you put the crosshairs over the target and pull the trigger' none of this gravity bollocks.
Plus you don't have to constantly issue ammunition, supply the Guardsmen once and he can just plug them into a socket whenever he runs out. Chimeras have such sockets in the back for instant in-the-field resupply.

But most of what I know is based on DH and Gaunt's Ghosts.
In Gaunt's Ghost they the lasers have a significant amount of mass AND heat it seems, yet are still beams of some variety.
At one moment blowing an arm off in a single hit, and another catching a man square in the throat and merely burning out the voice box...

I think lasguns are pretty cool and they're a very practical weapon most of the time. Are they the best for stopping a charging ork at very close range? No, but they have a lot of other things going for them.

icn1982 wrote:
the problem with that is there are multiple types of 'standard pattern las-gun' all using different ammo clips (the are all las gun power clips, but come in different sizes). Las gun is a catch all term for small arms laser weapons, much like the auto gun is a catch all for small arms solid shot weapons. Just look at the number of automatic rifles and magazine clips there are for assault rifles. Its why you have a Ryza Pattern Lasgun, a Necromunda Pattern Lasgun etc etc. These are mentioned by name simply because the are issued in such large numbers, but I imagine every forge world and weapons producing hive world have their own versions. Also changing clips between patterns would be much harder, as a clip is a single power cell at a set size and shape. At least with solid shot, there is a reasonable chance you can take the bullets out of one magazine and put them in another magazine designed for the same calibre *Not guaranteed, but a reasonable chance).

Yeah, there are a lot of different patterns of lasguns out there. I remember in one of the Gaunt's Ghosts novels they were having a problem because the Tanith lascarbines utilized a standard Size 3 power pack and they kept getting issued Size 4 power packs (or something like that, I might have the numbers wrong).

I'm inclined to disagree about the power pack differences being harder to deal with than cartridges similar to what we use currently. It's true that if you have two different weapons designed to use the same cartridge you could remove the cartridges from one magazine and stick them in another. However, relatively small changes in cartridge dimensions, gunpowder and bullet weight could really feth with reliability.

I don't know that much about electrical stuff, but if the power cells supply electricity to the lasgun (like maybe the power pack charges a capacitor on the lasgun?) then it seems like it would be more straightforward for the Departmento Munitorum armorers to come up with an adapter allowing their standard production power packs to power the lasgun.

size, 3.5 and size 5 (I read that bit yesterday, which is why I mentioned the different power cells.

With regards to why a las weapon doesn't clog the same as a solid shot, I imagine they do, but if the lenses are deep enough inside, all you would need to do is fire several rounds to clear the blockage - in a solid shot the ammo would explode, a las weapon it wouldn't

Well, it is a freaking weaponized laser so it is inherently awesome.

I do have to get a joke out:
Q:"What do you call a lasgun with a laser sight?"
A:"Twin-linked".
Okay, I am done and got that out of my system.

A recessed barrel would be good but if any wet mud got packed in there, the boiling steam could make an impressive explosion when fired.

The lore of exposing the end of a clip next to a fire to recharge is a cool image and makes you wonder why a solar panel of sorts is not all over the gun: they sound mighty efficient.
I agree that logistics would be utterly brutal so an efficient low maintenance and low consumables weapon is mandatory.
Since guard are rather... plentiful, weapon effectiveness all boils down to this:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Lasguns only seem to come in about 3 different power pack fittings.
A, B, and C standard. Although you might get D+ variants as well.

I've never heard of a lasgun holding 100 rounds, in DH they hold I think it was about 40.

The Guard Primer as well as some codex mentionned that, at standard charge, a lasgun can fire around 150 shots before needing to change pack. Each guard carries around four of them. In a single pack, a Guardsmen has more shots than Space Marine in his entire kit (six magasine of around 30 bolts). The Fantasy Flight game stats are made for balance purpose. The game stats of the weapon should taken with a grain of salt.

The lasgun is indeed an incredibly powerful weapon thanks to its reliability, ease of use, decent power and amazing capacity.

IIRC in the Inquisitor RPG book Lasguns had over 100 shots per power pack.

Many lasguns have a power selector. Maybe ~150 on the default setting but only ~40 at max?
Edit: Or maybe ~150 is the lowest setting. I don't know.

Further, the power cell for the lasgun adsorbs energy from light. You can leave an empty one out in the sun all day and have a full mag by nightfall. Supposedly you can even charge them off camp fires which would make them far more efficient than our own solar panels.

 Talizvar wrote:

I do have to get a joke out:
Q:"What do you call a lasgun with a laser sight?"
A:"Twin-linked".
Okay, I am done and got that out of my system.

Better you than me.

Of course the problem is that while the lasgun should be consider average, or even better than average, the game mechanics don't/can't allow weapons that would be entirely useless. I am glad 40K doesn't have weapons so weak that to wound they would have roll a 6 followed my another 6 or is completely negated my armor. It would seem like a waste of time (at least to me) to add one more bucket of dice being rolled.

I can accept that the lasgun is an awesome destructive weapon and would be (and often is) the pinnacle in many other settings. However, 40K is so Grimdark, badass that these frickin' lasers are bottom tier small arms weaponry. I don't need that backed up with worst weapons in game mechanics to make lasguns, or bolters for that matter, seem better.

Just a quick note, in the Guns of Tanith, a subplot is that the Ghosts were given the wrong size lasgun clips, so they had to conserve ammo, which also implied that clips are a deal less than 100 (basically everyone ran out).

Also, while we're talking about how awesome lasguns are, lets give a shout out to flak armour. The stuff is a good deal better than what we have now, simply as it is capable of saving someone from being shot with the afore-mentioned lasguns.

The simple comparison to lasguns/flak armour and the laser weaponry of any other setting is the major reason why I think the Guard would be basically unstoppable in any other universe.

Mudrat wrote:
Just a quick note, in the Guns of Tanith, a subplot is that the Ghosts were given the wrong size lasgun clips, so they had to conserve ammo, which also implied that clips are a deal less than 100 (basically everyone ran out).

Also, while we're talking about how awesome lasguns are, lets give a shout out to flak armour. The stuff is a good deal better than what we have now, simply as it is capable of saving someone from being shot with the afore-mentioned lasguns.

The simple comparison to lasguns/flak armour and the laser weaponry of any other setting is the major reason why I think the Guard would be basically unstoppable in any other universe.

Yeah, but I don't think Gaunt's Ghosts is an amazing source of facts on the function of a lasgun.
As I mentioned earlier their shots had enough kinetic energy behind them to flip a man over (but nowhere near that much recoil), they were affected by wind (but seemingly not gravity), and they move from having the power to blow and arm off (so almost hand grenade levels of hurt) to not even killing a man with a square hit to the throat (less than a really hard punch levels of hurt). Plus they ricochet.
So bearing in mind all that, do we take those books as a measure of the types of power cell and their capacity?

Personally the different types of powercell seems pretty plausible though, and I'm sure a lasgun could even have an adapter.

Mudrat wrote:
Plus they ricochet.

Note that lasbolt ricocheting is completely logical. When it hits a surface with sufficent light reflectance, it will bounce off (with some loss of it's energy). This works as long as the lasbolt isn't powerful enough to actually melt the surface when it hits.

Best defence against las-weaponry would be a material with high light reflectance and low temperatrue conductance...

*the more you know*

 Hawky wrote:

Mudrat wrote:
Plus they ricochet.

Note that lasbolt ricocheting is completely logical. When it hits a surface with sufficent light reflectance, it will bounce off (with some loss of it's energy). This works as long as the lasbolt isn't powerful enough to actually melt the surface when it hits.

Best defence against las-weaponry would be a material with high light reflectance and low temperatrue conductance...

*the more you know*

Oh I know, But reflecting off of an asphalt surface or a rock? Nah.
They once fought some corrupted Men of Iron whom had shiny armour. Apparently that 'robbed the lasbolts of all but their kinetic energy, knocking the thing off stride'. So these lasbolts clearly have a lot of mass behind them, but not that much recoil.
So as I said, not exactly a scientific account of lasers.

Yeah, that's dumb.

I noticed earlier that Gaunt's ghosts have some flaws in it's weapon representation. Lasbolts are sometimes more solid ammunation than actual lasers.

 Hawky wrote:
Yeah, that's dumb.

I noticed earlier that Gaunt's ghosts have some flaws in it's weapon representation. Lasbolts are sometimes more solid ammunation than actual lasers.

Seems good for just about everything else though
Their tank combat was reasonably accurate, it's just a shame the lasweapons are so weirdly wrong.

The best thing i like about lasguns is that you can charge up laspacks by heating them up (But it Degrades the pack resulting in less shots)

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
IIRC in the Inquisitor RPG book Lasguns had over 100 shots per power pack.

Many lasguns have a power selector. Maybe ~150 on the default setting but only ~40 at max?
Edit: Or maybe ~150 is the lowest setting. I don't know.

I have in my hands three genuine lasgun powerpacks*.

They have stated capacities of:
Mars: 97-166 discharges
Vostroya: 135 discharges
Triplex Phall: 144-147 discharges

I don't think I like the quality control on those Mars-pattern packs.

* 5th edition dice tins.

Previous editions of the rules explained las-weapons as firing "energy bolts" which interacted explosively with the surface of whatever they hit as the surface absorbs the energy and vapourises (a pretty plausible explanation of how a laser weapon might work, actually). the laser bolt will have some momentum, but to get to the point where that will actually be relevant the output of the weapon needs to get ... very large indeed. Also, if the bolt is reflected, the momentum transfer will be higher than if it is simply absorbed by the target. Which is why you want your solar sail to be very shiny.

epronovost wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Lasguns only seem to come in about 3 different power pack fittings.
A, B, and C standard. Although you might get D+ variants as well.

I've never heard of a lasgun holding 100 rounds, in DH they hold I think it was about 40.

The Guard Primer as well as some codex mentionned that, at standard charge, a lasgun can fire around 150 shots before needing to change pack. Each guard carries around four of them. In a single pack, a Guardsmen has more shots than Space Marine in his entire kit (six magasine of around 30 bolts). The Fantasy Flight game stats are made for balance purpose. The game stats of the weapon should taken with a grain of salt.

The lasgun is indeed an incredibly powerful weapon thanks to its reliability, ease of use, decent power and amazing capacity.

Isn't the Guard's primer full of propaganda about the capability of the Guard and the inneffectiveness of the enemy so new recruits don't crap themselves?

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Hawky wrote:

Mudrat wrote:
Plus they ricochet.

Note that lasbolt ricocheting is completely logical. When it hits a surface with sufficent light reflectance, it will bounce off (with some loss of it's energy). This works as long as the lasbolt isn't powerful enough to actually melt the surface when it hits.

Best defence against las-weaponry would be a material with high light reflectance and low temperatrue conductance...

*the more you know*

Oh I know, But reflecting off of an asphalt surface or a rock? Nah.
They once fought some corrupted Men of Iron whom had shiny armour. Apparently that 'robbed the lasbolts of all but their kinetic energy, knocking the thing off stride'. So these lasbolts clearly have a lot of mass behind them, but not that much recoil.
So as I said, not exactly a scientific account of lasers.

I dont know, I can see a whole regiment given the punishment detail of polishing rocks

The Tau Empire is able to mass-manufacture a far more powerful weapon.

The pulse rifle is also an incredibly widely-available, standardized weapon... that also shoots farther and harder than a bolter.

The Lasgun is a brilliant weapon for its ease if use, durability, adaptability and rechargeable ammo packs. Who knows how many versions or modifications are out there, I think that goes for power pack capacity as one's standard may be completely different to another planets. I say power packs can hold as much or as little amount of shots as you want depending on quality and size. E.g from single shot Las-locks to the hundreds of shots in the highest quality. Indeed in the novel Sons of Dawn the 'Roaring Blades' Emperor's Children Auxiliary Infantry Regiment still had a few working Lasguns (albeit in their final spurt of shots) 10,000 years after they were first issued. Of course you could argue well they must have been using up the last of their power packs, but I think Lasguns built in the Great Crusade probably had a higher capacity of shot than those in the current 40k due to the superior technology and quality that was later lost in the Heresy and Mars uprisings

Interesting Information:

It operates on a nineteen megathule range and can utilise any Departmento Munitorum sanctioned power pack.
It can either be fired in two settings 'low or high' in either single or burst shots.
Rate of fire (cyclic) 220 shots per minute.
Can be recharged in sources of heat or good light and can even be placed in fire without threat of explosion.

Litany of the Lasgun:
Bringer of Death, speak your name, For you are my life, and the foe's Death

As a little bonus, test your skills with a Lasgun on the Tyranid firing range in this classic mini game from GW!

http://wayback.archive.org/web/20060203023328oe_/http://uk.games-workshop.com/tyranids/xenos-hunt/1/


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
The Tau Empire is able to mass-manufacture a far more powerful weapon.

The pulse rifle is also an incredibly widely-available, standardized weapon... that also shoots farther and harder than a bolter.

'Most Fire Warriors carry a cumbersome projectile weapon called a pulse rifle. Like most tau technology, it is of outlandish design and prone to malfunction. They are noisy and produce a brightly flared pulse of concentrated ion. Only prolonged, sustained barrages are capable of killing a strong, armoured human'

-Quote from GW-

Lasgun hype!

I hold in my left hand DH 2nd Ed rulebook and in my right the Imperial Infantrymans uplifting primer (damocles gulf ed). Let's do some facts.

Lasgun according to page 152 in DH 2nd Ed rulebook:

Effective range: up to 400m
Rate of fire: single shot or semi automatic bursts of roughly 2shot/second of 3shot bursts.
Ammo capacity: 60 shots per clip
Weight: 4kg
Fire settings: can be set to extending 2 shots worth of ammo per shot for increased damadge or 4 shots of ammo per shot for even more increased damadge and penetration.
Damadge type: energy (heat)
Special properties: reliable. Does not easily break or jam.
Add ons: a variety of stocks, sights, grips, bayonette, targeter, inscriptions and clip modifications. Silencers are not included.
Special ammo: hot shot charge. An overcharged pack only good for a single shot, but with power to rival a boltgun.
Notes: of course there's various patterns and versions of the lasgun, such as the Carbine and the long las, but here I only included the standard entry.

Lasgun according to page 18 in the Imperial Infantrymans uplifting primer:

Effective range: 19 megathule? ("decent range" is written)
Rate of fire: single shot or fully automatic bursts of 220 shots per minute (roughly 3.5shots/second)
Ammo capacity: "many shots"
Weight: 2.3kg (could be without stock, ammo clip and other add ons)
Fire settings: low or high intensity. High intensity drains the pack more but provides more stopping power.
Damadge type: energy. The shot is designed to cauterise the wound but heat up and boil the insides to cause internal bleeding and trauma (p 78).
Special properties: compatable with any munitorum sanctioned designs. It's also durable and the clip CSN be recharged from a "standard powersource" as well as light, heat or placing it in a fire for quick emergency recharge (which tends to have some negative side effects on the clip.
Add ons: same as DH but with a silencer included (which dampens the flash as well somehow)

There, that took long enough to write.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


Isn't the Guard's primer full of propaganda about the capability of the Guard and the inneffectiveness of the enemy so new recruits don't crap themselves?

The description of weapons is very acurate compared to other sources. The propaganda is in the tone more than in the content before they start to talk about xenos.. You don't want to present bs that be exposed in training. The survival tricks are all very good for example.

The propaganda becomes ridiculous with the xenos and than againt. With the orks, it's mostly true with some elements of pure bs and some misrepresentations. It make sense since most guards will fight orks at some point. When it comes to eldar, there is a lot of bs and misrepresentation. Logical since guardsmen will relatively fight them. Tyranids info are full of bs because they are terrifying, a new threat (its the Damocles Gulf eddition) and the guards will be sent to die against them not win.

 Nerak wrote:
Lasgun hype!

I hold in my left hand DH 2nd Ed rulebook and in my right the Imperial Infantrymans uplifting primer (damocles gulf ed).

Well I was holding the Damocles Gulf Primer in my left hand and Dark Heresy Second edition in my right!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

epronovost wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


Isn't the Guard's primer full of propaganda about the capability of the Guard and the inneffectiveness of the enemy so new recruits don't crap themselves?

The description of weapons is very acurate compared to other sources. The propaganda is in the tone more than in the content before they start to talk about xenos.. You don't want to present bs that be exposed in training. The survival tricks are all very good for example.

The propaganda becomes ridiculous with the xenos and than againt. With the orks, it's mostly true with some elements of pure bs and some misrepresentations. It make sense since most guards will fight orks at some point. When it comes to eldar, there is a lot of bs and misrepresentation. Logical since guardsmen will relatively fight them. Tyranids info are full of bs because they are terrifying, a new threat (its the Damocles Gulf eddition) and the guards will be sent to die against them not win.

Primer:

'Orks are big, stupid and bestial' - Correct

-Tyranid weapons are formed out of living tissues; they often fall apart' - Correct

-'Eldar are weak and impure' - Technically correct

-'Tau are cowards, hiding behind their pathetic armour' - Correct, you never see unarmoured Tau in melee.

 Sentinel1 wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
The Tau Empire is able to mass-manufacture a far more powerful weapon.

The pulse rifle is also an incredibly widely-available, standardized weapon... that also shoots farther and harder than a bolter.

'Most Fire Warriors carry a cumbersome projectile weapon called a pulse rifle. Like most tau technology, it is of outlandish design and prone to malfunction. They are noisy and produce a brightly flared pulse of concentrated ion. Only prolonged, sustained barrages are capable of killing a strong, armoured human'

-Quote from GW-

I'm guessing from the Primer?

Pulse rifles are toned-down plasma weapons, not ion. You sound like you're reading Imperial propaganda designed to keep Imperial troops from using the Tau's superior weapon systems.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
The Tau Empire is able to mass-manufacture a far more powerful weapon.

The pulse rifle is also an incredibly widely-available, standardized weapon... that also shoots farther and harder than a bolter.

A single Imperial Hive world probably manufactures more lasguns than the entire Tau Empire's production of pulse rifles. Heck, the Imperium probably manufactures more plasma guns than the Tau do pulse rifles.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
The Tau Empire is able to mass-manufacture a far more powerful weapon.

The pulse rifle is also an incredibly widely-available, standardized weapon... that also shoots farther and harder than a bolter.

A single Imperial Hive world probably manufactures more lasguns than the entire Tau Empire's production of pulse rifles. Heck, the Imperium probably manufactures more plasma guns than the Tau do pulse rifles.

I doubt the plasma part. The Tau certainly have more pulse rifles than the Imperium has bolters. The Imperium can only afford to field a million or so Space Marines. I'm not sure there's any data on the size of the Sororitas, but given the difficulties of equipping 1 million Space Marines with bolters, power armor, and other weapons, there's no way the Imperium fields more than 10 million Sororitas. The Tau sure as hell have more than 10 million Fire Warriors.

The Guard also has some boltguns. And I have no doubt that if the Imperium wanted a smaller, but better equipped military, they could make way more bolters than pulse weaponry, there's just not enough demand for the weapon.

EDit: And I wonder if the Tau could make pulse weapons at the same rate as they are now if the role were reversed. And then there's hotshot weaponry, which might lack some punch, but has amazing armor penetration compared to well, any other standard weaponry, except the pulse blaster at extremely close ranges.