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2017/03/13 23:23:55
Subject: Fixes I"d make for the game that I think work so far. IN PROGRESS FOREVER
So I obviously make lots of suggestions in different threads on how to fix stuff, but don't really keep everything together in one neat package. This kinda alleviates that I guess. People expecting consistent updates are to be disappointed, because I work most days of the week on top of additional schooling. That's the price I pay, I guess. One thing to note is that all initial fixes are made without considering Formations. I want to make things work enough that you'll want to take a couple of CADs because variety is the spice of life and all that jazz. So anybody playtesting these rules (if you really want to do that for whatever reason) needs to really keep that in mind. Also I'll listen to any criticisms you have, but if your reasoning is "It doesn't feel right" I'll ignore it because that's not based off math or fluff.
Also if you got cool, fluffy ass names for new rules I make up send them my way.
I - THE MAIN RULEBOOK
I know lots of people have tons of issues with it, but I personally don't have too many. However, there's definitely improvements to be made, which are of course as follows. They really aren't organized by section as that would take even more time, but if anyone wants to point out what order they SHOULD be in per how the book is laid out, that'd be great for any outside readers that actually end up being inspired by my fixes for whatever reason. Nobody will playtest with me after all haha! Vehicle reworkings to come soon.
Spoiler:
LIST CONSTRUCTION:
You get access to one Combined Arms Detachment and Formation at 1000 points, up to two of each at 1001-2000 points, three of each at 2001-3000 points, etc. One Combined Arms Detachment must be present per Formation used.
Also note you can take as many relics on a character you can so long as they got room. If you wanna throw all your eggs in one basket, who am I to judge?
1. If a Transport Vehicle has remained still and not moved, any contents inside are allowed to move out and charge per their normal restrictions (so ya know, no Rapid Firing and then charging unless you're Relentless etc). Assault Vehicles get their full movement to do that.
2. Skyfire allows targeting of Jetbike units with normal Ballistic Skill.
3. Swarms have Eternal Warrior. When hit by a Blast or Template Weapon, each model suffers D6 wounds instead of the normal 1 wound. This applies to Stomp attacks and anything else that might use any of those markers in the Assault Phase for whatever reason.
4. Any weapon mounted on a bike can be fired in addition to any range weapon the model might be using. However, if this is done, one of the weapons is used at half the model's BS.
5. ATSKNF doesn't Ignore Fear. For Fear tests for these models, roll 3D6 and pick the lowest two results.
6. Blast Weapons do not have to be centered over a model when initially placed.
7. Soulfire is resolved on a D6 rather than a D3.
8. Ordnance attacks make any models hit by them suffer I1 after resolving saves, in a similar manner as Concussive. In addition, all Ordnance attacks have Strikedown.
9. Sniper weapons get Pinning
10. Half the models in a unit (rounding up) are required to activate Hit And Run.
11. When attacking with grenades in melee, half the models, rounding up, in a unit may use them.
12. Any weapon attached to a Bike can be fired in addition to any weapon the user is actually carrying. However, if this is done, one of the weapons must fire at half the model's Ballistic Skill.
13. PYROMANCY: Inferno is WC1. Molten Beam has a range of 18". I'm open to more suggestions but I think this makes it a more well-rounded table.
14. TELEKINESIS: Crush is AP2. I haven't any other ideas how to fix the table as it is pretty hard to look at and nobody likes it.
15. TELEPATHY: Invisibility makes Ballistic Skill 1 rather than the Snap-Firing clause.
II - CODEX Adeptus Astartes: Space Marines (Note that Dark Angels and Blood Angels are rolled up into here as there simply aren't enough unique items to justify extra codices). Unit specific codices will get their own fixes soon, as well as Chapters that don't have any getting their own one or two special snowflakes, and my better fixes for FW stuff come later.
Spoiler:
Chapter Tactics Fixes:
1. Vehicles gain access to Chapter Tactics
2. If Black Templar Dreadnoughts lose any HP, they gain Rage and Counter-Attack for that turn. In addition, Black Templar Characters in a challenge gain Rending and Instant Death.
3. Blood Angels get rolled into here. The Descent Of Angels is now part of the Chapter Tactic. Pt. 2 is The Red Thirst, which gives +1 S/I on the charge, even if disorganized.
4. Dark Angels get rolled into here. Ravenwing, Deathwing, and Grim Resolve are the Chapter Tactics, with Grim Resolve being Overwatch at full BS and allowing rerolls of Wall of Death as well.
5. Imperial Fists have Stubborn standard, and can reroll all misses for Bolter weapons of any type.
6. Raven Guard detachments may roll for reserves starting Turn 1, succeeding on a 4+.
7. Salamanders have Shred on all Melta weapons, in addition to being Fearless if they didn't move in the Movement Phase.
8. All Ultramarines non-vehicles and Dreadnoughts have Objective Secured.
9. White Scars gain a bonus D6" to Flat-Out moves and Turbo Boosts.
10. Iron Hands Independent Characters grant +1 to Feel No Pain values for all friendly Iron Hands within 12" of them.
Weapon and Equipment Fixes, plus Relics:
1. Storm Bolters are S5
2. Heavy Bolters are now Salvo 2/4.
3. Inferno Pistols, Heavy Flamers, and Hand Flamers are part of the standard codex.
4. Pistol variants and Combi-Weapons are now 5 points
5. Chainswords have rerolls of 1 to wound
6. Relic Blades are now 20 points
6. Grav Weapons wound Swarms on a 6, regular Infantry on a 5+, anything Bulky on a 4+, anything Very Bulky on a 3+, and anything bigger on a 2+. Vehicles suffer a HP stripped on a 6, and Super Heavy Vehicles are treated as Immobilized until the opponent's next turn.
7. Missile Launchers have Flakk Missiles in their profile standard.
8. Any vehicle has the option to buy the Fast vehicle type for 10 points
9. The Armor Indominitus confers Relentless and is now 50 points. The Standard Of The Emperor Ascendant is now 50 points
10. The Glaive of Vengeance is now 35 points. The Hunter's Eye is now 30 points,
11. The Eye Of Hypnoth is now cumulative with an Auspex. The Spartean is AP4.
12. Betrayers Bane is now 20 points.
13. Vulkan's Sigil is now 15 points.
14. Raven's Fury is now 20 points.
15. Angel's Wing is now 20 points. Fury Of Baal is now 15 points.
16. Eye Of The Unseen is now 25 points. Monster Slayer Of Caliban is now 20 points.
HQ Fixes:
1. HQ's with a Jump Pack unlock Assault Marines as Troops. Techmarines can now buy Jump Packs for 15 points
2. Khan is now 150 points without his Bike
3. Tigurius is now 175 points
4. Shrike is now 170 points
5. Helbrecht now has Orbital Bombardment
6. Azrael has Blind on his Combi-Plasma again, has Orbital Bombardment, and is now 230 points. He may choose his Warlord trait from the basic Space Marine table or the Dark Angels table.
7. Belial is now 185 points.
8. Asmodai loses Specialist Weapon on his Blades Of Reason, and to be honest I don't know what other fixes would be fitting for him at the moment; I'm open to suggestions for this one. Seriously.
9. Astorath inflicts D3 additional wounds (which must be saved separately) or rolling for penetration if he rolls a 6 to wound or penetrate
10. The Sanguinor's sword now has Rending.
11. Tycho has Fleshbane on all his melee attacks.
12. Gabriel Seth gets moved to the HQ slot, gains Orbital Bombardment, Artificer Armor, and has Rampage standard instead of it being his Warlord trait, and is now 175 points; his new Warlord trait is Heroic Bearing as described in the current Codex: Blood Angels.
13. Commander Dante has Orbital Bombardment and is now 225 points; his new Warlord trait is Angel Of Death.
Troop Fixes:
1. Tactical Marines can buy another two Special Weapons or Heavy Weapons at 10 man squads.
. Veteran Sergeants now have 2 Wounds, and Power Weapons/Lightning Claws are 5 points, and Power Fists are 15 points.
2. Scout Heavy Bolters are now 10 points.
. Veteran Sergeants now have 2 Wounds, and Power Weapons/Lightning Claws are 5 points, and Power Fists are 15 points.
Fast Attack Fixes:
1. Assault Marines have access to all Pistol Types, and can buy two at 5 man squads, and an additional one at 10 men. Eviscerators are now 20 points.
. Veteren Sergeants now have 2 Wounds, and Power Weapons/Lightning Claws are 5 points, and Power Fists are 15 points
2. Biker Veteran Sergeants now have 2 Wounds, and Power Weapons/Lightning Claws are 5 points, and Power Fists are 15 points
3. Scout Biker Veteran Sergeants now have 2 Wounds, and Power Weapons/Lightning Claws are 5 points, and Power Fists are 15 points
Elite Fixes:
1. Tactical Terminators can buy two Heavy Weapons at 5 men, and additional two Heavy Weapons at 10 men. Assault Cannons are 15 points each, and squads start at 185 points
. Terminator Sergeants have 2 Wounds
2. Assault Terminators with Lightning Claws are 30 points now, and to upgrade to the TH/SS is 5 points, and squads start at 160 points
. Terminator Sergeants have 2 Wounds
3. Any Storm Bolter that Sternguard buy is compatible with Special Ammo; simply use the Assault 2 Profile instead of Rapid Fire. Sternguard can also buy up to four Special/Heavy Weapons in a squad, and squads start at 120 points.
. The Sergeant has 2 Wounds, and Power Weapons/Lightning Claws are 5 points and Power Fists are 15 points
4. Vanguard have access to Eviscerators, and those are 20 points each, and squads start at 105 points
. The Sergeant has 2 Wounds, and Power Weapons/Lightning Claws are 5 points, Relic Blades are 10 points, and Power Fists are 15 points
5. Command Squads have access to Jump Packs for 20 points per squad.
. Company Champions have 2 Wounds
. This unit does not use an Elite Slot per Techmarine, Librarian, Chaplain, or Captain present.
6. Honour Guard Chapter Champions have 2 Wounds
. This unit does not use an Elite Slot per Chapter Master present in your army
Heavy Support Fixes:
1. All Land Raider variants are 190 points now
2. Devastator Centurions pay 35 points for their Grav Cannon and Amp 3. Whirlwinds are 60 points now
4. Devastator Marines are 19 points per model outside the Sergeant, and everyone besides the Sergeant has a Heavy Bolter standard. Upgrades for weapons are now 5 points less due to everyone having a Heavy Bolter standard.
. Veteran Sergeants now have 2 Wounds, and Power Weapons/Lightning Claws are 5 points and Power Fists are 15 points
5. The Stalker's Icarus Stormcannon is now Heavy 4
6. The Hunter's Skyspear Missile Launcher has Strength 8 and Severing Cut.
FORMATIONS:
The following formations are allowed in this ruleset, with any modifications being shown.
1. Stormwing
2. Skyhammer Annihilation Force
3. Anti-Air Defense Force
4. Raptor Wing
5. Firespear Strike Force
6. Suppression Force
7. Centurion Siegebreaker Cohort
8. 1st Company Strike Force, which may not include more than 2 of each kind of unit.
9. 10th Company Task Force, which must include at minimum 2 units of Scout Bikers.
III - CODEX Chaos Space Marines
Spoiler:
Legion Fixes:
1. All Veterans Of The Long War in an Iron Warriors Detachment have the Intractable Brotherhood rule standard, and all CADs have access to 1-3 Fortifications.
2. All Veterans Of The Long War in a Word Bearers Detachment have Crusader standard, and all Characters in a Word Bearers Detachment benefit from The Eight Fold Path.
3. All Veterans Of The Long War in an Alpha Legion Detachment have Interceptor and Move Through Cover, and Bikers have Skilled Rider.
4. All Veterans Of The Long War in a Thousand Sons Detachment have Fearless and reroll any failed Deny The Witch tests, and benefit from Masters Of Arcane Knowledge.
5. All Veterans Of The Long War in a Black Legion Detachment have Thirst For Glory standard, and all Black Legion Detachments have Tip Of The Spear.
6. All Veterans Of The Long War in a Night Lords Detachment have Strike First, Strike Hard
7. All Veterans Of The Long War in an Emperor's Children Detachment gain access to Combat Drugs
8. All World Eaters Detachments gain Blood Mad
9. All Death Guard Detachments gain Cloud Of Flies
Weapon Fixes:
1. Combi-Bolters function as two Bolters that fire at the same time.
2. Plasma Pistols and Combi-Weapons are 5 points now.
3. Heavy Bolters are Salvo 2/4
4. Reaper Autocannons are Heavy 3 Twin-Linked.
5. Chainswords have rerolls of 1 to wound.
6. Flakk Missiles are standard on all Missile Launchers
Special Equipment, Icon, and Mark Fixes, along with Relics:
1. Palanquins and Juggernaughts are 30 points now
2. The Aura Of Dark Glory is 10 points now
3. The Mark Of Khorne gives +1 Attack
4. The Icon Of Wrath only has the rerolling charges clause and is now 15 points
5. The Icon Of Excess is now 30 points.
6. The Icon Of Flame gives Soul Blaze to all range weapons in the unit.
7. The Icon Of Vengeance is now 20 points
8. Any unit Deep Striking within 12" of any Icon can reroll the scatter dice if they wish.
9. The Murder Sword activates its current traits when in a challenge. The Scrolls Of Magnus are 25 points now. The Dimmensional Key is now 20 points.
10. The Hand Of Darkness is now 40 points. The Eye Of Night is now 45 points. The Crucible Of Lies doesn't confer a -1T penalty and is now 15 points.
11. The Skull Of Monarchia is now 10 points. The Cursed Crozius confers Preferred Enemy (Everything) to the bearer.
12. The Viper's Bite is Assault 2.
13. The Plague Skull Of Glothila is AP2 and is now 20 points. The Puscleaver has Rending. The Plaguebringer has Shred.
14. The Cranium Malevolus is now 25 points. The Warpbreacher is now 20 points. The Nest Of Mechaserpents is now 15 points
15. The Crimson Killer is now 15 points.
HQ Fixes
1. Warpsmiths are 80 points and Dark Apostles are 95 points each and have access to Special Issue Wargear and Chaos Steeds.
2. Lucius has Fleet. If Lucius is slain in a challenge by a non-Necron or Tyranid character, the character that slayed him must pass a LD test. If the character fails, roll another dice and on a 4+ the character is removed from the table and Lucius is placed in that exact spot. Lucius can also purchase a Steed Of Slaanesh for 20 points.
3. Kharn has Decapitating Blow on Gorechild and has Eternal Warrior. Kharn is now 190 points and may purchase a Juggernaught Of Khorne for 30 points.
4. Ahriman has AP3 on his Staff and is 220 points now.
5. Typhus has It Will Not Die and is now Toughness 6. Typhus may purchase a Palanquin Of Nurgle for 30 points.
6. Huron loses Specialist Weapon on his Claw and gains Feel No Pain. Huron is now 170 points.
7. In addition to the default Warlord Trait he has, Abigail can roll for a second trait from any of the BRB tables, Codex: Chaos Space Marines table, and Black Legion table (rerolling Black Crusader obviously).
Troop Fixes:
1. Chaos Space Marines have an extra CCW standard.
. Can take Land Raiders as a Dedicated Transport
. For every additional 5 Marines in the squad, another Special or Heavy Weapon can be purchased.
. The Aspiring Champion has 2 Wounds, Power Weapons/Lightning Claws are 5 points and Power Fists are 15 points
2. Cultists are 3 points each, and the Champion is 13 points
. The Aspiring Champion has 2 Wounds
Elites Fixes:
1. All Terminators are 28 points each, and the Sergeant is 38 points.
. Lightning Claws are 3 points each
. Power Fists are 5 points each
. Chainfists are 10 points each
. Up to two models in the unit may purchase Reaper Autocannons for 20 points each or Heavy Flamers for 10 each
. The Champion pays the same points for all upgrades as regular members, and has 2 Wounds.
2. Plague Marines are 23 points each, and the Champion is 33 points
. Everyone has Poison (2+) on all range and melee weapons and grenades, including upgrades. Any improvements to this value instead add Shred.
. Can take Land Raiders as a Dedicated Transport
. The Aspiring Champion has 2 Wounds, Power Weapons/Lighting Claws are 5 points and Power Fists are 15 points.
3. Noise Marines are 19 points each, and the Champion is 29 points
. All models in the squad have Sonic Blasters, which are now Assault 2, as well as the extra CCW's and all models have Fleet
. Blastmasters are 25 points each
. Can take Land Raiders as a Dedicated Transport
. The Aspiring Champion has 2 Wounds, Power Weapons/Lightning Claws are 5 points and Power Fists are 15 points.
4. Berserker Marines are 20 points each, and the Champion is 30 points
. Everyone in the squad has Chainaxes which are now S+1 and AP4
. Up to two models can buy Eviscerators for 20 points each
. Can take Land Raiders as a Dedicated Transport
. The Aspiring Champion has 2 Wounds, Power Weapons/Lightning Claws are 5 points and Power Fists are 15 points.
5. Rubric Marines are now 22 points each, and the Champion being 57 points
. Up to two models can buy a Heavy Bolter or Autocannon with Inferno Bolts for 10 points, and one in every ten may purchase a Soulreaper Cannon for 20 points
. As long as the Champion is alive, you can select the following benefits until the beginning of the next turn:
a. The squad has Relentless, 2 Attacks base, and fires Overwatch at full BS, and may reroll any Wall Of Death that might be present.
b. The squad has BS5, Rending, and the unit fired at must reroll all successful invulnerable saves
c. The squad has Shred, Ignores Cover, and gain Soul Blaze. If Soul Blaze is already present, you can reroll the result, picking the highest value.
. Can take Land Raiders as a Dedicated Transport
. The Aspiring Sorcerer has 2 Wounds
6. Possessed Marines are 30 points each, and the Champion is 40 points
. Can take Land Raiders as a Dedicated Transport
. Each model has 2 Wounds, and the Aspiring Champion has 3 Wounds
7. Chosen are 21 points each, and the Champion is 31 points
. Power Weapons and Lightning Claws are 5 points, and Power Fists are 10 points. You are not limited to how many melee weapons you buy.
. You can get up to three Heavy Weapons in the squad, not including the Special Weapons
. You can take one of the following USR's for the squad at list construction: Tank Hunters, Monster Hunters, Infiltrate, Shrouded, Hit And Run, or Daemon
. The Aspiring Champion has 2 Wounds, Power Weapons/Lightning Claws are 5 points and Power Fists are 15 points
8. Mutilators are 50 points each and may be taken at 5 in a squad.
9. Helbrutes have It Will Not Die!
Fast Attack Fixes:
1. Spawn have Furious Charge instead of Rage and can be taken up to 10 in a squad
2. Raptors are 16 points each, and the Champion is 26 points
. They are treated as having Chainswords standard
. The Aspiring Champion has 2 Wounds, Power Weapons/Lightning Claws are 5 points and Power Fists are 15 points.
3. Heldrakes have a 180 degree firing arc for their weapon of choice
. Heldrakes start at 150 points with the Hades Autocannon, and pay 20 to upgrade to the Baleflamer
4. Warp Talons are 27 points each, and the Champion is 37 points.
. The Aspiring Champion has 2 Wounds
Heavy Support Fixes:
1. Obliterators are 65 points each and can be taken in squads up to 5
2. Maulerfiends have 3 attacks base
3. Forgefiends have 3 attacks base and are 155 points each
4. Land Raiders are 170 points each, and may buy Power Of The Machine Spirit for 20 points.
5. Havocs start at 18 points, and the Champion is 23 points, everyone outside the Champion coming with a Heavy Bolter standard. All Heavy Weapons upgrades are at 5 points less because of this
. The Aspiring Champion has 2 Wounds, Power Weapons/Lightning Claws are 5 points and Power Fists are 15 points.
6. The Defiler has an addition HP, becomes a Super Heavy Vehicle, and is now 265 points
FORMATIONS:
The following formations are allowed in this ruleset, with any modifiers being shown.
1. Raptor Talon, which must include at least one unit of Warp Talons with 2 mandatory squads of Raptors.
2. Terminator Annihilation Force
3. Favoured Of Chaos
4. Lost And The Damned
5. Mayhem Pack, which must include one Sorcerer or Warpsmith. While that HQ unit is alive, you may choose the result of the mandatory Crazed test.
6. Helforged Warpack
7. Fist Of The Gods
8. Cult Of Destruction
9. Wrathborn
10. Helfist Murder Pack
11. Helcult
IV - CODEX Necrons
Spoiler:
Special Rules Fixes:
1. All models have Relentless and Move Through Cover standard
2. On a roll to wound with a 6, Gauss weapons force rerolls of any successful save that might have been taken against that wound, on top of the normal benefits from Gauss.
3. Tesla weapons only don't gain the bonus shots if the unit using them is jinking.
Weapon Fixes, Special Equipment Fixes and Relics:
1. Tesla Carbines are now Assault 2
2. Tesla Cannons are now Heavy 3
3. Mindshackle Scarabs impose a LD test in a challenge done on 3D6. If it is failed, the challenger may only hit the Necron character on a 6.
4. Tesseract Labyrinths are added back for any character to purchase for 25 points.
5. Dispersion Shields regain the reflect rule from the 5th edition codex
6. The Orb Of Eternity is now 35 points.
7. The Gauntlet Of The Conflagrator is now 25 points.
7. All Mephrit Artifacts are rolled into here.
. The Edge Of Eternity is now errata'd to grant Precision Strikes on any successful hit and is now 25 points
HQ Fixes:
1. Overlords can buy a Jump Pack for 15 points. They can purchase a Hyperphase Sword + Dispersion Shield for 10 points or Voidblade + Particle Caster for 5 points
. Lords can be bought in groups of 1-3 for a single HQ slot and are 45 points.
2. Command Barges get the sweep attack they lost from the 5th edition codex
3. Destroyer Lords have a Warscythe by default and are now 120 points.
4. Crypteks can be bought in groups of 1-3 for a single HQ slot, and Crypteks can upgrade to the following rules. These upgrades are only once per detachment. In addition to their Staff Of Light:
. Harbingers Of Destruction carry the same weapon that Illuminor has, their unit has defensive grenades, and gains the Solar Pulse ability from the Solar Staff for a total of 30 points
. Harbingers Of Despair gain a S8 AP2 Assault 1 Flamer that rolls against LD to wound, their unit gains Deep Strike, and once per turn can force a Morale Check on an enemy unit for a total of 30 points
. Harbingers Of Storm gain a 12" S4 AP- Assault 4 Haywire Weapon, enemy units cannot Deep Strike within 8" of their unit, and enemies charging them suffer D6AP- wounds for a total of 25 points
. Harbingers Of Eternity gain a S:User AP2 Melee weapon, a 3++ save, and can reroll one dice for their unit per phase for a total of 20 points
. Harbingers Of Transmorgification gain a 30" S5 AP6 Assault 1 Blast Weapon that forces the unit hit to move as though it were in difficult terrain, their unit has Move Through Cover, and enemies charging at their unit suffer a 3" penalty to their charge for a total of 25 points
5. Anrakyr has a Master-Crafted Warscythe, and may choose which weapon to fire with his Mind In The Machine ability.
6. Trazyn has the Objective Secured rule, and his Surrogate Hosts rule includes Lychguard models. Trazyn is now 155 points.
7. Obyron has WS7, and Cleaving Counterblow activates in any initiative step when an opponent's model attacks in a challenge and misses; these additional attacks of course roll to hit as normal.
8. Szeras has It Will Not Die!
9. Zandrekh's Counter Tactics is instead a once-per-turn ability, and he chooses a squad within 12" to benefit from one of those listed Special Rules. Nemesor is now 170 points.
Fast Attack Fixes:
1. Destroyers have 2 attacks in their profile
2. Tomb Blades pay 5 points for Shield Vanes and 3 points for Nebulascopes, and are now 19 points
3. Ghost Arks have no limitation on being only able to carry Warriors.
4. Night Scythes are now 125 points.
Elite Fixes:
1. Deathmarks select their target for Hunters From Hyperspace when they deploy
2. Triarch Stalkers have AP2 melee attacks.
3. Triarch Praetorians are now 27 points each
4. Lychguard can individually select whether to equip a Warscythe or Hyperphase Sword + Dispersion Shield
5. All C'Tan variants are moved here. In the shooting phase, the C'Tan may make 3 separate shooting attacks, each of which can be fired at a different target.
Heavy Support Fixes:
1. Annihilation Barges are now 110 points
2. Monoliths lose Ordnance on their Particle Whip. Portal Of Exile is given back from the 5th edition codex.
Lord Of War Fixes:
1. Obelisks have a 270 degree firing arc for their Tesla Spheres, and that goes for the Tesla Spheres on the Tesseract Vault as well. Anything that it affected currently by its Gravity Pulse is clarified as needing to take the test, even if it would normally succeed automatically.
2. Tesseract Vaults make 5 separate shooting attacks when using C'Tan shooting attacks.
3. The Stormlord has a S+1 AP2 melee profile for his Staff Of The Destroyer, and continues rolling for the Lord Of The Storm attack so long as Night Fighting is active. The Stormlord is now 210 points.
FORMATIONS:
The following formations are allowed in this ruleset, with any modifiers being shown:
1. Judicator Battalion
2. Annihilation Nexus
3. Living Tomb, which must have 1 Monolith minimum
4. Destroyer Cult, which must include 1 full unit of Heavy Destroyers, and allows up to two more units
5. Canoptek Harvest, with Reanimation Protocols being removed, and Tank Hunters being added along with Hit And Run and Precision Shots/Precision Hits
6. Conclave Of The Burning One, which can use any C'Tan Shard type of your choice.
7. Retribution Phalanx
8. Resurgence Decurion
9. Deathbringer Flight, which must have 1 Night Scythe.
V - CODEX Tyranids
Spoiler:
Equipment Fixes, Powers, and Relics:
1. Scything Talons allow rerolls of 1 to wound
2. The Norn Crown is now 25 points
3. The Reaper Of Obliterax is AP2 and is now 40 points
4. The Miasma Cannon has Large Blast on its profile
5. The Ymgarl Factor is now 25 points
6. Thorax Biomorphs can be fired in addition to any other weapons the model might be carrying.
7. Catalyst adds 1 to Feel No Pain scores, or gives Feel No Pain (6+) if the unit doesn't have FNP present.
8. Warp Blast is WC1
HQ Fixes:
1. The Hive Tyrant may purchased an Enhanced Exoskeleton which gives a 2+ for 20 points if the Tyrant did not already purchase wings.
. Twinlinked Devourers are 20 points each.
. Wings are 40 points
. Any unit within Synapse range of a Hive Tyrant gains Rage and Counter Attack.
2. The Tyranid Prime is now 90 points and may select to buy Master Level 1 for 25 points. It may buy a Jump Pack for 15 points
. Any unit within Synapse range of the Prime adds +1 to its WS and BS scores
3. The Tervigon is now 175 points.
. Any unit within Synapse range of the Tervigon may add 3" to all charge distances.
4. The Swarmlord is now 265 points.
. Any unit within Synapse range of the Swarmlord has Hatred and Crusader
Troop Fixes:
1. Genestealers have a 5++ save.
2. Any unit within Synapse range of a Warrior gains Feel No Pain.
3. Termagaunts and Hormagaunts are considered Beasts.
Elite Fixes:
1. Any unit within Synapse range of a Zoanthrope gains Adamantium Will
2. Hive Guard are now 45 points each.
3. Lictors are 40 points each.
. The Deathleaper is a 90 point upgrade to a single Lictor brood per army and cannot be the Warlord. Any unit that charges his unit suffers D6 Strength 6 attacks at I10, in addition to his unit benefiting from "Where is it?"
4. Pyrovores gain an additional profile to their gun, which is Heavy 1, Torrent
5. Any wound that the Haruspex inflicts regenerates any lost wounds the model had.
6. Any unit within Synapse range of the Maleceptor rerolls any failed Overwatch results, and the Maleceptor is now 180 points.
. Psychic Overload is WC1
Fast Attack Fixes:
1. Units cannot perform Overwatch on Ravenors
. The Red Terror is now 80 points, and only needs to land 3 attacks for the Swallow Whole ability, which ignores all saves.
2. Any unit within Synapse range of Shrikes has Hit And Run.
Heavy Support Fixes:
1. The Carnifex has It Will Not Die! and is now 100 points.
. Old One Eye is a single 150 point upgrade to any Carnifex brood per army and may never be the Warlord. He has It Will Not Die and Feel No Pain standard.
2. The Trygon is now 180 points, and isn't restricted to what unit type may come from its Subterranean Tunnel.
. Any unit within Synapse range of a Trygon Prime counts as having Assault Grenades. If the unit already counted as having Assault Grenades, it gains +1I when charging.
3. The Tyrannofex's Acid Spray is now AP3. Switching to the Fleshborer Hive is AP4 and is a free exchange. The Tyrannofex may be taken in broods of up to three models.
. The Rupture Cannon is now AP2 and has 3 shots.
FORMATIONS:
The following formations are allowed in this ruleset, with any modifiers being shown.
1. Hive Vanguard
2. Skyblight Swarm
3. Living Artillery Node
4. Bioblast Node
5. Incubator Node
6. Wrecker Node
7. Subterranean Swarm
8. Tyrant Node
9. Endless Swarm
VI - CODEX Orks
Spoiler:
Special Rules and Equipment Fixes, and Relics:
1. Mob Rule's results can be rerolled if the unit has 10 or more models in the unit.
2. All Ork vehicles have the Ramshackle rule standard, and all walkers have 'Ere We Go!
3. Big Choppas are now AP3 and 20 points
4. Cybork Bodies add +1 to any Feel No Pain score, or confer a Feel No Pain 6+ if one isn't present
5. Da Dead Shiny Shoota is now Assault 10
6. Da Finkin' Kap is now 20 points
7. Da Lukky Stikk is now 35 points
8. Headwoppa's Killchoppa is now AP3 and 30 points
9. Characters of any kind attached to a squad count as 2 models for determining what benefits a squad might get (See below)
10. Nobz pay 10 points for Big Choppas and 15 for Power Klaws
HQ:
1. Warbosses can buy Rokkit Packs for 15 points
2. Big Meks can buy Rokkit Packs for 15 points, and all vehicles within 12" of the Mek can reroll any failed It Will Not Die rolls.
3. Weird Boys can buy Rokkit Packs for 15 points or Warbikes for 25 points, have access to Runts, Squigs, and Wat-Nots, and his Staff is now Concussive, and can once per game can make all models gain Adamantium Will.
. For every 5 models in the unit a Weird Boy has joined, they gain +1BS and +1WS
4. Pain Boys can buy Rokkit Packs for 15 points
. Once per game, a Pain Boy's squad can increase their Feel No Pain score by 1. However, at the beginning of your next turn, all models in the unit take a S4 AP2 wound.
Troops:
1. Boyz' Heavy Armor upgrade is instead 3 points per model
Boyz have the following benefits, depending on the number of models in the unit
5-14: Add +1 to any Feel No Pain score, or gain Feel No Pain (6+) if the former can't happen
15-24: The entire unit is treated as having +1 Strength
25+: Make a Leadership test. If passed, the entire unit gains an additional 6" of movement when moving for the turn.
2. Gretchin are 2 points each, can buy Autoguns for 1 point each, and gain the following benefits, depending on how many models are in the unit
5-14: The unit is now Stubborn
15-24: The unit can make an extra attack at Initiative 1 for each model in the unit
25+: Make a Leadership test. If passed, any Objective the unit is holding cannot be contested, even if the contesting unit has Objective Secured.
Elites:
1. Kommandos have the following benefits, depending on the number of models in the unit
5-9: The unit has Shrouded
10-14: When charging, the unit gains a Hammer Of Wrath attack conducted at S4
15+: Make a Leadership test. If passed, the unit gains Rending on all range and melee attacks for the turn.
. Snikkrot is now a 50 point upgrade to a single Kommando squad per army. If he is in the unit, the unit may charge when coming from Reserves, instead of gaining Shrouded from his Ambush rule.
2. Tank Bustaz have the following benefits, depending on the number of models in the unit
5-9: All Range Attacks made by the unit have Shred
10-14: The unit has Twin-Linked on all weapons.
15+: Make a Leadership test. If passed, all range weapons in the unit have Armorbane for the turn.
3. Burna Boyz have a 5+, and have the following benefits, depending on the number of models in the unit
5-9: All attacks conducted by the unit have Soul Blaze
10-14: All the Burnas in the unit can use both the range and melee profiles, even if the unit shot with them.
15+: Make a Leadership test. If passed, the unit gains Torrent on their Burnas and may reroll results of Wall of Death until the end of the turn.
4. Meganobz have the following benefits, depending on the number of models in the unit
3-5: The unit is treated as Relentless instead of Slow And Purposeful
6-9: The unit adds +1 to any Feel No Pain score they have
10+: Make a Leadership test. If passed, the entire unit has +1WS and +1BS until the end of the turn.
5. Nobz only pay 3 points per model for Heavy Armor, and 18 points per model per bike. The unit has the following benefits, depending on how many models are in the unit
3-5: The unit has a natural Leadership of 9
6-9: Any unit within 12" of this unit have Leadership of 9
10+: Make a Leadership test. If passed, the unit and all units within 12" of it have Crusader
Fast Attack:
1. Stormboyz gain the following benefits, depending on how many models are in the unit
5-14: The unit conducts all Hammer Of Wrath attacks at Strength 5
15-24: The unit gains the Jink special rule
25+: Make a Leadership test. If passed, the unit can run and charge in the same turn. If a Waaagh! was called, it can reroll all run results for the turn.
. Zagstruck is now a 70 point upgrade to a single Stormboy squad per army. He counts as having a single handed Big Choppa now.
2. Warbikers are 20 points per model, and have the following benefits, depending on the number of models in the unit
5-9: Hammer Of Wrath attacks have Shred
10-14: Hammer Of Wrath attacks have AP3
15+: Make a Leadership test. If passed, all units actively within 9" of the unit gain +1 to any Cover Save they have, or a 6+ Cover Save if they didn't have one.
3. Deffcoptas have a unit size limit of up to 6 models now, and gain the following benefits, depending on the number of models in the unit
2-3: All Deffcoptas in the unit may move an extra 3" in the movement phase
4-5: The unit has a 5+ Invulnerable Save
6+: Make a Leadership test. If passed, all Deffcoptas in the unit are treated as an Eldar Jetbike until the end of the turn
4. Warbuggies are 20 points each. Upgrading the TL Big Shoota to a TL Rokkit Launcha or Skorcha is 5 points for either weapon.
5. The Burna Bomma has 6 Skorcha Missiles standard in its profile
6. The Blitza Bomma is now 115 points
7. The Dakkajet has 3 Supa Shootas standard
Heavy Support:
1. Lootas have a 5+, and have the following benefits, depending on the number of models in the unit
5-9: Deffguns are Assault D3 instead of Heavy D3
10-14: All range attacks made by the unit have Ignores Cover
15+: Make a Leadership test. If passed, Deffguns roll on a D6 instead of a D3 for that turn
. In addition to the Trukk and Battlewagon, Lootas can use the following transports from the appropriate codices and count them as dedicated. The only change is that BS2 will be the default for all vehicles, pay the appropriate costs for upgrades listed in those codices, and that only Lootas and any Independent Characters that joined them may ride them: Land Raider (Godhammer, Redeemer, and Crusader), Chimera, Taurox, Wave Serpent, Raider, Ghost Ark, Immolator, and Valkyrie.
2. Flash Gitz have a 4+, and have the following benefits, depending on the number of models in the unit
3-5: The AP of Snazzguns is rolled on a D3 rather than a D6 6-9: All Range attacks from the unit gain Pinning
10+: Make a Leadership test. If passed, all the unit's range weapons increase Strength by 1 until the end of the turn.
. Badrukk is an 80 point upgrade to a single Flashgitz squad per army. Da Rippa is now Assault 5
3. Bubblechuckas are now 25 points and have Ignores Cover
4. Killa Kans no longer have the Cowardly Grotz! rule.
5. Deff Dreads can be taken in squads of 1-3, and have Rampage as a special rule.
6. The Battlewagon counts as an Assault Vehicle, even when it has the 'Ard Case
. Killkannons are 25 points now
. Grabbin' Klaws can target Monstrous Creatures
. Wreckin' Balls now hit any model within 3" (including friendly models) on a 4+ and now costs 20 points.
7. The Gorkanaut and Morkanaut have a Front Armor Value of 14
Lords Of War:
1. The Effigy radius for the Stompa is 12" and is now 570 points
2. Ghazghkull has Fearless, Relentless, a 4+ Invulnerable Save, a TL Bigshoota, an extra attack, and all Orks in his army may use his Leadership value. He is now 235 points.
FORMATIONS:
The following formations are allowed in this ruleset, with any any modifications being shown.
1. Dreadmob
2. Bullyboyz, which must include at least 1 Warboss and can include up to 2 more
3. Green Tide
4. Air Armada
5. Pain Mob
I'll take any suggestions for which codex to try and tackle next. I've got ideas for all of them, but obviously I can only do one at a time.
This message was edited 11 times. Last update was at 2017/04/22 08:06:22
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2017/03/14 02:47:27
Subject: Fixes I"d make for the game that I think work so far. IN PROGRESS FOREVER
I like a lot of these! Commenting as I go through...
Main Rulebook:
* The "half grenades" rule seems like an odd compromise. I think it works mechanically, but I'm not sure it's really an improvement over "1 grenade per squad" or "everyone gets a grenade." I feel like either of these latter options might be cleaner and easier to both work with and to balance model rules and wargear prices around.
*Your psychic power proposals don't seem unresonable. I don't think there's anything wrong with most of the telekinesis or even pyromancy powers themselves. It's just that they tend to be overshadowed by more powerful or generally useful powers from other disciplines. So your porposals seem fine, but I feel it might be better to overhaul some core assumptions regarding the psychic system if we want to see major improvement.
MARINES
* Chainswords getting half of preferred enemy is redundant if you take any other rule that provides a similar benefit. I kind of like the idea of giving chainswords rending, +1 to the user's strength, or -1 to enemy armor saves. But that's its own conversation.
*Grav. I love your suggestions in general here. I'm not wild about rolling "d2" to determine how many hull points I take off of a big thing though. Maybe keep it at -1 HP, but replace the d2 part with "counts as being immobilized until the start of the next marine turn?" That way, you're still damaging them consistently without becoming D-strength, and you can set up other units to damage the super heavies more reliably.
CHAOS MARINES
* See marine-related stuff.
* The points costs I can't really comment on. I don't have my CSM book in front of me right now. I will say that I feel chaos is actually in a pretty good spot right now thanks to the Legions book.
NECRONS
*Tesla needs the snapfiring clause. Otherwise you end up in the 6th edition codex's situation where tesla is weirdly effective when snapfiring at flyers, etc.
*The C'tan getting d3 attacks is meant to off-set the randomness of their attacks, I assume? Or just to make them more powerful? I feel the latter might be too big an improvement, and the former is more easily done by simply letting them declare their target after generating the power. Or by having them generate the power at the start of the game like psychic powers.
TYRANIDS
*Scything talons. Not sure what you mean here. Is it a single reroll on your to-wounds per model like digital weapons? Is it rerolling all to-wound rolls of 1? If the latter, why to-wound rolls instead of to-hit like it used to be? Also, would this be a rule that only applied to attacks made with talons, or are talons treated as wargear that benefits other weapons? Sort of like harlequin weapons?
* Is the change to catalyst specifically to benefit GMCs? I can't think of any other FNP bugs. Oops. I see it now. The warrior buff.
*While I like the changes to the prime, I don't feel that his primary issue, that being his insane cost, is really addressed. While I like the options you've given him, I'd much rather have him simply start at a much lower cost with less expensive upgrades. Tyranids need a cheapish HQ option, and you've taken away Death Leaper as that option.
*Shrikes granting hit & run to all units in range seems extremely good. Especially when coupled with 'nids ability to tarpit extremely effectively. You could easily tarpit a knight, for instance, and then hit & run out to blast him with electroshock grubs before tying him up again. Or simply engage the entire enemy army, and then tear them apart unit by unit at your leisure. I'd take another look at this one and consider toning it down. Shrikes are already more desirable in your proposed rules set because they can keep up with beast gaunts while warriors can't.
*Hammer of wrath doesn't make a lot of sense on the trygon and seems like a bit of a pain logistically. It's one thing to resolve hammer of wraths with a marine bike army that often doesn't really want to charge you and generally has a relatively small model count. Imagine slowing the game down to position 50+ gaunts in such a way as to maximize your number of hammer of wraths. Also, I'm not clear on why the trygon grants that particular synapse buff. Would +1 initiative or +1 attack on the charge be more appropriate? Maybe even counting as having assault grenades as the trygon passes on information about the terrain using its "tremor sense."
*I'm not sure making the rupture cannon AP2 and cheaper really fixes its issues. You're still averaging a single glance and a single pen against most targets (that don't have some sort of save agains the attack). Making it AP2 just means that you'll average one exploded vehicle once a game if make one pen stick per turn.
Anything I didn't comment on is either awesome or something I didn't feel strongly about one way or the other.
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
2017/03/14 03:07:00
Subject: Re:Fixes I"d make for the game that I think work so far. IN PROGRESS FOREVER
I'm not going to tackle the army specific changes yet (need more time to look and process them), but here's my thoughts on the BRB changes.
I - THE MAIN RULEBOOK
1. If a Transport Vehicle has remained still and not moved, any contents inside are allowed to move out and charge per their normal restrictions (so ya know, no Rapid Firing and then charging unless you're Relentless etc). Assault Vehicles get their full movement to do that. A rule that rightfully should never have been removed. 100% agree about returning it.
2. Interceptor allows targeting at ground units with normal Ballistic Skill again. Skyfire allows targeting of Jetbike units with normal Ballistic Skill. No complaints here, makes sense to me.
3. Swarms have Eternal Warrior. When hit by a Blast or Template Weapon, each model suffers D6 wounds instead of the normal 1 wound. This applies to Stomp attacks and anything else that might use any of those markers in the Assault Phase for whatever reason. Yes to Eternal Warrior, but I'm unsure about the D6 wounds. That's a lot of extra dice rolling. If you thinks it need to change from doubling I'd make it triple instead rather than be random.
4. ATSKNF doesn't Ignore Fear. For Fear tests for these models, roll 3D6 and pick the lowest two results. Oh god yes. I personally also think it could do with no giving them a normal turn after regrouping (auto regrouping is good enough) but that could just be my disdain for this rule showing.
5. Blast Weapons do not have to be centered over a model when initially placed. Again, makes sense to me.
6. Soulfire is resolved on a D6 rather than a D3. Honestly I'd much rather have Soul Blaze deal the extra damage imediately and not linger. So each successful hit (of a 6 perhaps) deals an automatic Str 4 AP5 hit. That's just me though and this is still fine.
7. Ordnance attacks make any models hit by them suffer I1 after resolving saves, in a similar manner as Concussive I mean yeah, why not.
8. When attacking with grenades in melee, half the models, rounding up, in a unit may use them. Again, no complaints here.
9. PYROMANCY: Inferno is WC1. Molten Beam has a range of 18". I'm open to more suggestions but I think this makes it a more well-rounded table. Personally I feel Firey Form and Flame Breath should be switched, and Firey Form should also allow the psyker to re-roll failed Armour Pens when casting Pyro powers.
10. TELEKINESIS: Crush is AP2. I haven't any other ideas how to fix the table as it is pretty hard to look at and nobody likes it. Telekinesis's main problem is that it's so unfocused. Objuration Mechanicum could do with being replaced by something else and Telekine Dome could do with becoming WC1. Unsure as to whether Levitation should be changed or replaced. It's a cool power but as written mostly useless. Also Assail could do with having an AP value, even if it's only AP4.
11. TELEPATHY: Invisibility makes Ballistic Skill 1 rather than the Snap-Firing clause. I also feel that Invis should be at the very least WC3. It is way to good to be WC2.
2017/03/14 12:21:57
Subject: Fixes I"d make for the game that I think work so far. IN PROGRESS FOREVER
I like the core-rules tweaks overall, most of my disagreements are minor/stylistic.
Space Marines:
I'm skeptical of giving vehicles Chapter Tactics; it does almost nothing for most Chapters (given that Dreadnaughts already have Chapter Tactics). Running down the list the Chapters it does affect:
Imperial Fists: All benefits would apply fully to vehicles. Minor buffs, to be sure, but still buffs when almost no other Chapter is getting anything.
Black Templars: Non-Dreadnaught vehicles are getting Adamantium Will. A negligible benefit.
Salamanders: Land Speeders are getting twin-linked flamers. Significant, yes, but as Salamanders fluffwise don't have any Land Speeders it's an odd choice for a thing to buff.
And from Forge World:
Raptors: Depending on whether you apply the interpretation that a twin-linked weapon is a distinct weapon and not affected by things that would affect a non-twin-linked version (I know the weapon swaps in the 30k Salamanders and Blood Angels rules work this way) the hurricane bolters on your Land Raider Crusaders and Stormravens could choose to fire three Rending shots if the vehicle didn't move.
Angels Revenant: If you're fighting Necrons your vehicles get Preferred Enemy (Necrons). If you aren't the rule that comes into play instead doesn't do anything for them.
Red Hunters: The Mnemonic Redaction Protocols temporary USR could actually be relevant when applied to vehicles. Like, significantly relevant. Not just a random tiny situational buff the way most of this is.
Star Phantoms: The 1/game twin-linked on all non-Ordnance/Pistol weapons is nice. Unfluffy, but nice.
Fire Hawks: S6 heavy flamers on Land Speeders arriving from Deep Strike. Situational, impractical, but sort of cool.
So by giving vehicles Chapter Tactics you hand out a small set of wonky, unfluffy, or impractical buffs to most people, and an actually cool one to the Red Hunters. It seems more trouble than it's worth, honestly.
On weapons I'm skeptical of 5pts for upgrade pistols given the Gunslinger rule; every sergeant in your army could be spending 10pts for a plasma gun that can't fire single-shot-at-24" mode, or 10pts for two S8 shots. If you're going to keep the pistols at 5pts I'd say reduce the hitting power a bit the way the hand flamer is lower strength than the normal flamer (you're still spending 5pts for a S6/AP2 shot), but otherwise keep the plasma/inferno pistols at 10pts.
As for the Marine unit fixes they mostly make sense; I'd like to request that Vulkan and Lysander get Eternal Warrior back on profile instead of having to burn their Warlord Trait to do it.
And Tactical Terminators really ought to be 30pts with power weapons, and the option to upgrade to power fists. Even with cheaper assault cannons, more heavy weapons, and S5 storm bolters the problem of paying for powerfists on a unit you may not want anywhere near combat persists.
Not sure about porting Legion heavy support squads directly into the Devastator squad slot; I get that you're trying to distinguish Devastators from Tactical Marines after handing Tacticals the option to have three heavy weapons at ten models but I'd rather keep the option to have ablative wounds rather than being forced to pay for guns on everyone. Let everyone buy a heavy weapon, don't force them to start with it (this would also avoid needing to have multiple pricings on the armoury table).
Poison (2+) on all attacks for Plague Marines seems a bit excessive. I'm aware that the Deathwatch have Posioned (2+) bolt rounds, but they don't get Poison (2+) on grenades, flamers, or attacks with any AP value, and they're also not T5/FNP. I'm also aware you're trying to distinguish Plague Marines from Nurgle-marked Marines. I'd rather see Poison (3+) on bolt weapons and melee attacks only, leave the grenades/special weapons using their base profile.
Land Raider prices seem like they're starting to stretch past reasonable to me. I'd keep the base variants at 200pts and give CSMPotMS (given both that they had it in the 31st milennium and that they're more likely to be experimenting with AI in the interim than the Mechanicum), the Land Raider may be too squishy if you've got the D-weapons to one-shot it but it's also way too tough if you bring it to a game where the other guy wasn't expecting it and doesn't have the specific tools to deal with it (maybe he's Martel and has decided that S7 is the answer to everything, and refused to bring anything else).
Defiler as a 4-HP Superheavy: *bleep* no. It's a well-established fact that 'superheavy' starts at 6HP, if you haven't broken that barrier (Minotaur, Spartan, Lynx) you're still an ordinary vehicle. And the Defiler isn't really big enough to justify it. Look at the height and bulk of anything in the existing rules with Stomp, then look at the Defiler.
If you want to give the Defiler a pseudo-Stomp rule I'd say write up a pseudo-Stomp rule rather than making it a superheavy and giving it multiple chances per turn for a 6-to-RFP template at a bizarre pricepoint and model-size bracket.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/14 12:23:40
My big one would be only one independent character can join a unit - this could be another independent character so you would have a single unit of 2 models. This would avoid a lot of the rules stacking.
2017/03/14 13:12:06
Subject: Fixes I"d make for the game that I think work so far. IN PROGRESS FOREVER
With the exception of a few minor cavils that others have mentioned, I mostly like these. However, I do have a question about one odd interaction with Gauss weapons - on a 6, you get a -1 penalty to saves. Does this affect AP? Suppose a Tomb Blade shoots at a Battle Sister with a gauss blaster and gets a 6 to wound - does she make an armor save that passes on a 4+, or does the gauss blaster's AP4 punch through that? (Obviously, her 6++ is neutralized).
RFHolloway wrote: My big one would be only one independent character can join a unit - this could be another independent character so you would have a single unit of 2 models. This would avoid a lot of the rules stacking.
The problem here is that most of the problems with putting multiple ICs in one unit are actually problems with how Blessings work. If you nerf Blessings most of the use-one-unit-to-tank-for-many-characters potential is gone and multi-character units just become overpriced exercises in putting too many eggs in one basket, and you don't accidentally hand IG or the Inquisition weird nerfs they don't really need.
(The major exceptions are using Veil of Darkness or Gate of Infinity to teleport many ICs with one power, but you could add a keyword to the game describing effects that only work if the character is the only IC attached to a unit (and use that to clear up redundant wording in Deep Strike and Infiltrate along the way) to catch out those.)
There are some neat ideas in here, and I wish you luck in your endeavors. However, as I read through this, the more I am convinced that 40K needs a ground-up rebuild, rather than further patchwork and updates. To use an analogy, 40K is an old car that has been driven for many years on the road. You have 3 options:
1 - trade it in for a new one (which a lot of use do NOT want to do)
2 - patch up all the problems as the appear with what is quick and easy to apply (which is what FAQs and Errata do)
3 - full restoration: take it apart, clean off the rust and gunk from the years, and put it back together again (which I personally feel needs to be done)
What you are doing here is in between 2 and 3, and I applaud you for it! If I had the inclination, I would probably start doing something like this myself. But until I sit down and do so, let me give you my thoughts on some of these proposed changes:
1. If a Transport Vehicle has remained still and not moved, any contents inside are allowed to move out and charge per their normal restrictions (so ya know, no Rapid Firing and then charging unless you're Relentless etc). Assault Vehicles get their full movement to do that. - I like this. It is straight out of the 5th edition rules, but considering that this change hurt many assault units in books without access to cheap assault transports. 2. Interceptor allows targeting at ground units with normal Ballistic Skill again. Skyfire allows targeting of Jetbike units with normal Ballistic Skill. - This is okay. It would probably get more people bringing Fortifications with guns again, and I always thought that Jetbikes were flying high enough to get hit by Skyfire. 3. Swarms have Eternal Warrior. When hit by a Blast or Template Weapon, each model suffers D6 wounds instead of the normal 1 wound. This applies to Stomp attacks and anything else that might use any of those markers in the Assault Phase for whatever reason. - I feel like this is a step in the right direction. It is a call back to 5th edition again, but a proper SWARM should be kinda hard to deal with. 4. ATSKNF doesn't Ignore Fear. For Fear tests for these models, roll 3D6 and pick the lowest two results. - This could work really well, though I would word it as "roll an additional die" than 3d6, so as to avoid confusion on Leadership tests (like your later mentioned Necron Mindshackle Scarabs update). 5. Blast Weapons do not have to be centered over a model when initially placed. - Did they? I will have to check my rulebook next chance I get...
6. Soulfire is resolved on a D6 rather than a D3. - I haven't dealt with this in many years, and can't fairly comment.
7. Ordnance attacks make any models hit by them suffer I1 after resolving saves, in a similar manner as Concussive - So just make them concussive?
8. When attacking with grenades in melee, half the models, rounding up, in a unit may use them. - A fair fix and in between for what was done before and the ruling now, but could be cumbersome to count out the models. It's a start though! 9. PYROMANCY: Inferno is WC1. Molten Beam has a range of 18". I'm open to more suggestions but I think this makes it a more well-rounded table. - I haven't really used Psykers in 7th edition. The new phase just made it too cumbersome for me.
10. TELEKINESIS: Crush is AP2. I haven't any other ideas how to fix the table as it is pretty hard to look at and nobody likes it. - See previous.
11. TELEPATHY: Invisibility makes Ballistic Skill 1 rather than the Snap-Firing clause. - See previous.
II - CODEX Adeptus Astartes: Space Marines (Note that Dark Angels and Blood Angels are rolled up into here as there simply aren't enough unique items to justify extra codices). Unit specific codices will get their own fixes soon, as well as Chapters that don't have any getting their own one or two special snowflakes, and my better fixes for FW stuff come later. - I've always kinda figured that Space Marines ought to be rolled into a single Codex before, but I'm never happy with that thought in the long run. Maybe it could work? But if that's the case, can Space Wolves be thrown in? I love Space Wolves, but are Grey Hunters really any different from Tactical Marines? How about Chapter Specific Wargear? Gah, it's messy. I'm staying out of this one...
Spoiler:
Chapter Tactics Fixes:
1. Vehicles gain access to Chapter Tactics - I think this is fine. As other have said, it would be quirky for some Chapters, and useless for others. But it would help Dreadnoughts, and I love Dreadnoughts! 2. If Black Templar Dreadnoughts lose any HP, they gain Rage and Counter-Attack for that turn. - Is that how it works for infantry? If so, works for me. 3. Blood Angels get rolled into here. The Descent Of Angels is now part of the Chapter Tactic. Pt. 2 is The Red Thirst, which gives +1 S/I on the charge. - Sounds fine to me 4. Dark Angels get rolled into here. Ravenwing, Deathwing, and Grim Resolve are the Chapter Tactics, with Grim Resolve allowing rerolls of Wall of Death. - Sounds fine to me.
Weapon and Equipment Fixes, plus Relics: - This needs to be tread carefully. Modifying weapons profiles can be tricky, because it is affecting the weapon across all the Codices (Codexes?) and should be handled with care. And points costs are also messy, since you can't look at them in a vacuum, as Psychic powers and Formations may give unintended bonuses. I will give my thoughts below...
1. Storm Bolters are S5 - It's something, but I don't know if this is what the Storm Bolter needs. It's a start though.
2. Heavy Bolters are now Salvo 2/4 or Heavy 4. - I would go with Salvo 2/4. 3. Inferno Pistols, Heavy Flamers, and Hand Flamers are part of the standard codex. - Yes, please! 4. Pistol variants and Combi-Weapons are now 5 points - Eh, I'd rather them be costed out based on their abilities rather than a blanket cost. Plus, I'd rather make Combi-weapons usable more than once somehow.
5. Chainswords have rerolls of 1 to wound - What about my models I gave Combat Blades to instead of Chainswords? I'm not sure about this one.
6. Grav Weapons wound Swarms on a 6, regular Infantry on a 5+, anything Bulky on a 4+, anything Very Bulky on a 3+, and anything bigger on a 2+. Vehicles suffer a HP stripped on a 6, and Super Heavy Vehicles lose D2 instead. - This sounds like it could work better to me, except for Super Heavies, which I would make just as susceptible as regular vehicles.
7. Missile Launchers have Flakk Missiles in their profile standard. - Works for me! 8. The Armor Indominitus confers Relentless and is now 50 points. The Standard Of The Emperor Ascendant is now 50 points - I have never seen these used, nor used them, so I can't fairly comment.
9. The Glaive of Vengeance is now 35 points. The Hunter's Eye is now 30 points, - See previous comment.
10. The Eye Of Hypnoth is now cumulative with an Auspex. The Spartean is AP4. - See previous comment.
11. Betrayers Bane is now 20 points. - See previous comment.
12. Vulkan's Sigil is now 15 points. - See previous comment.
13. Raven's Fury is now 20 points. - See previous comment.
14. Angel's Wing is now 20 points. Fury Of Baal is now 15 points. - See previous comment.
15. Eye Of The Unseen is now 25 points. Monster Slayer Of Caliban is now 20 points. - See previous comment.
HQ Fixes: - I don't have anything to say here. I'm not interested on taking name characters, as I prefer to make my own Chapter stories and characters based on my games and tabletop experiences.
1. HQ's with a Jump Pack unlock Assault Marines as Troops. - Works for me! 2. Khan is now 150 points without his Bike
3. Tigurius is now 175 points
4. Shrike is now 170 points
5. Helbrecht now has Orbital Bombardment - Works for me. He is basically a Chapter Master, right? 6. Azrael has Blind on his Combi-Plasma again, has Orbital Bombardment, and is now 230 points.
7. Belial is now 185 points.
8. Asmodai loses Specialist Weapon on his Blades Of Reason, and to be honest I don't know what other fixes would be fitting for him at the moment; I'm open to suggestions for this one. Seriously.
9. Astorath inflicts D3 additional wounds (which must be saved separately) or rolling for penetration if he rolls a 6 to wound or penetrate
10. The Sanguinor's sword now has Rending.
11. Tycho has Fleshbane on all his melee attacks.
12. Gabriel Seth gets moved to the HQ slot, gains Orbital Bombardment, Artificer Armor, and has Rampage standard instead of it being his Warlord trait, and is now 175 points; his new Warlord trait is Heroic Bearing as described in the current Codex: Blood Angels.
13. Commander Dante has Orbital Bombardment and is now 225 points; his new Warlord trait is Angel Of Death.
Troop Fixes:
1. Tactical Marines can buy another two Special Weapons or Heavy Weapons at 10 man squads. - I would just let the Squad take two of 2 Special Weapons, 2 Heavy Weapons, or one of each. Giving them that much fire power moves away from the Troops role to me.
2. Scout Heavy Bolters are now 10 points. - Since they are now BS4 standard, this works.
Fast Attack Fixes:
1. Assault Marines have access to all Pistol Types, and can buy two at 5 man squads, and an additional one at 10 men. Eviscerators are now 20 points. - This is fine with me. I would also give them an option for models in the unit to take Power Weapons/Lightning Claws/PowerFists instead of the Pistol types, since they are a melee unit.
Elite Fixes:
1. Tactical Terminators can buy two Heavy Weapons at 5 men, and additional Heavy Weapon at 10 men. Assault Cannons are 15 points each - Hm... This might work. Improving Storm Bolters would lessen the need for Heavy Weapons though. It's a start.
2. Assault Terminators with Lightning Claws are 30 points now, and to upgrade to the TH/SS is 10 points still. - Works for me! 3. Any Storm Bolter that Sternguard buy is compatible with Special Ammo; simply use the Assault 2 Profile instead of Rapid Fire. Sternguard can also buy up to four Special/Heavy Weapons in a squad. - If they can swap out their Bolt guns for Special/Heavy Weapons, I would give it to them at a points discount so as to off-set the points of their Special ammo (or make the Special ammo have a points cost).
4. Vanguard have access to Eviscerators, and are 20 points each. - Makes sense to me!
Heavy Support Fixes:
1. All Land Raider variants are 190 points now - Eh, seems a bit much in discount, but it's a start.
2. Devastator Centurions pay 35 points for their Grav Cannon and Amp - I never use them, nor do I see them fielded often. I guess it's okay. But if Grav weapons are less effective, shouldn't their points reflect this? Make changes all together, not detached from each other.
3. Whirlwinds are 60 points now - Is the 5 points going to make a difference? Otherwise it's okay. 4. Devastator Marines are 19 points per model outside the Sergeant, and everyone besides the Sergeant has a Heavy Bolter standard. Upgrades for weapons are now 5 points less due to everyone having a Heavy Bolter standard. - I like this one!
III - CODEX Chaos Space Marines - I don't play Chaos Marines, so I don't have much to say about them. Just be sure to make their equivalent items from their loyalist brothers get equal treatment. Let's see what I can find...
Spoiler:
Legion Fixes:
1. All Veterans Of The Long War in an Iron Warriors Detachment have the Intractable Brotherhood rule standard.
2. All Veterans Of The Long War in a Word Bearers Detachment have Crusader standard.
3. All Veterans Of The Long War in an Alpha Legion Detachment have Move Through Cover.
4. All Veterans Of The Long War in a Thousand Sons Detachment have Fearless and reroll any failed Deny The Witch tests.
Weapon Fixes:
1. Combi-Bolters function as two Bolters that fire at the same time. - Seems fun to me.
2. Plasma Pistols and Combi-Weapons are 5 points now.
3. Heavy Bolters are Salvo 2/4 or Heavy 4
4. Reaper Autocannons are Heavy 3 Twin-Linked.
5. Chainswords have rerolls of 1 to wound.
6. Flakk Missiles are standard on all Missile Launchers
Special Equipment, Icon, and Mark Fixes, along with Relics:
1. Palanquins and Juggernaughts are 30 points now
2. The Aura Of Dark Glory is 10 points now
3. The Mark Of Khorne gives +1 Attack
4. The Icon Of Wrath only has the rerolling charges clause and is now 15 points
5. The Icon Of Excess is now 30 points.
6. The Icon Of Flame gives Soul Blaze to all range weapons in the unit.
7. The Murder Sword activates its current traits when in a challenge. The Scrolls Of Magnus are 25 points now. The Dimmensional Key is now 20 points.
8. The Hand Of Darkness is now 40 points. The Eye Of Night is now 45 points. The Crucible Of Lies doesn't confer a -1T penalty and is now 15 points.
9. The Skull Of Monarchia is now 10 points. The Cursed Crozius confers Preferred Enemy (Everything) to the bearer.
10. The Viper's Bite is Assault 2.
11. The Plague Skull Of Glothila is AP2 and is now 20 points. The Puscleaver has Rending. The Plaguebringer has Shred.
12. The Cranium Malevolus is now 25 points. The Warpbreacher is now 20 points. The Nest Of Mechaserpents is now 15 points
13. The Crimson Killer is now 15 points.
HQ Fixes
1. Warpsmiths and Dark Apostles are 100 points each and have access to Special Issue Wargear and Chaos Steeds. - Shouldn't they cost the same as their Loyalist counterparts?
2. Lucius has Fleet. If Lucius is slain in a challenge by a non-Necron or Tyranid character, the character that slayed him must pass a LD test. If the character fails, roll another dice and on a 4+ the character is removed from the table and Lucius is placed in that exact spot. Lucius can also purchase a Steed Of Slaanesh for 20 points. - Lucius's ability seems wonky to me. I'm not familiar with the character, but this seems like it needs a full reworking.
3. Kharn has Decapitating Blow on Gorechild and has Eternal Warrior. Kharn is now 190 points and may purchase a Juggernaught Of Khorne for 30 points.
4. Ahriman has AP3 on his Staff and is 220 points now.
5. Typhus has It Will Not Die and is 225 points now. Typhus may purchase a Palanquin Of Nurgle for 30 points.
6. Huron loses Specialist Weapon on his Claw and gains Feel No Pain. Huron is now 170 points.
7. In addition to the default Warlord Trait he has, Abigail can roll for a second trait from any of the BRB tables, Codex: Chaos Space Marines table, and Black Legion table (rerolling Black Crusader obviously).
Troop Fixes:
1. Chaos Space Marines have an extra CCW standard. - I would make them the exact same as Tactical Marines, but give them something that would work in place of and equivalent to your new ATSKNF. And then give Tactical Marines the option to take additional CCWs.
. Can take Land Raiders as a Dedicated Transport - Maybe in certain formations or Legions? Seems a bit much.
. For every additional 5 Marines in the squad, another Special or Heavy Weapon can be purchased. - Hm... seems okay to me.
2. Cultists are 3 points each, and the Champion is 13 points
Elites Fixes: - This seems mostly okay to me. I like the access to Land Raiders for Cult Marines. Comments below. 1. All Terminators are 28 points each - I would knock them down to 25, since they aren't coming with a Power Fist.
. Lightning Claws are 3 points each - Maybe 5 points each?
. Power Fists are 5 points each
. Chainfists are 10 points each
. Up to two models in the unit may purchase Reaper Autocannons for 20 points each or Heavy Flamers for 10 each - However many Heavy Weapons Loyalists can take, I feel that Chaos should get the option for just as many.
. The Champion pays the same points for all upgrades as regular members
2. Plague Marines are 23 points each, and the Champion is 33 points
. Everyone has Poison (2+) on all range and melee weapons and grenades, including upgrades
. Can take Land Raiders as a Dedicated Transport
3. Noise Marines are 19 points each, and the Champion is 29 points
. All models in the squad have Sonic Blasters, which are now Assault 2, as well as the extra CCW's and all models have Fleet
. Blastmasters are 25 points each
. Can take Land Raiders as a Dedicated Transport
4. Berserker Marines are 20 points each, and the Champion is 30 points
. Everyone in the squad has Chainaxes which are now S+1 and AP4, and now have Rending for the first round of combat
. Up to two models can buy Eviscerators for 20 points each
. Can take Land Raiders as a Dedicated Transport
5. Rubric Marines are now 22 points each, and the Champion being 57 points
. Up to two models can buy a Heavy Bolter or Autocannon with Inferno Bolts for 10 points, and one in every ten may purchase a Soulreaper Cannon for 20 points
. As long as the Champion is alive, you can select the following benefits until the beginning of the next turn:
a. The squad has Relentless, 2 Attacks base, and fires Overwatch at full BS b. The squad has BS5, Rending, and the unit fired at must reroll all successful invulnerable saves
c. The squad has Shred, Ignores Cover, and gain Soul Blaze. If Soul Blaze is already present, you can reroll the result, picking the highest value.
. Can take Land Raiders as a Dedicated Transport
6. Possessed Marines are 30 points each, and the Champion is 30 points
. Can take Land Raiders as a Dedicated Transport
. Each model has 2 Wounds
7. Chosen are 21 points each, and the Champion is 21 points
. Power Weapons and Lightning Claws are 5 points, and Power Fists are 10 points
. You can get up to three Heavy Weapons in the squad, not including the Special Weapons
. You can take one of the following USR's for the squad before deployment: Tank Hunters, Monster Hunters, Infiltrate, Shrouded, Hit And Run, or Daemon
8. Mutilators are 50 points each and may be taken at 5 in a squad.
Fast Attack Fixes:
1. Spawn have Furious Charge instead of Rage and can be taken up to 10 in a squad
2. Raptors are 16 points each, and the Champion is 26 points
. They are treated as having Chainswords standard
3. Heldrakes have a 180 degree firing arc for their weapon of choice
. Heldrakes start at 150 points with the Hades Autocannon, and pay 20 to upgrade to the Baleflamer
4. Warp Talons are 27 points each, and the Champion is 37 points.
Heavy Support Fixes:
1. Obliterators are 65 points each and can be taken in squads up to 5
2. Maulerfiends have 3 attacks base
3. Forgefiends have 3 attacks base and are 155 points each
4. Land Raiders are 170 points each
5. Havocs start at 17 points, and the Champion is 22 points, everyone outside the Champion coming with a Heavy Bolter standard. All Heavy Weapons upgrades are at 5 points less because of this
6. The Defiler has an addition HP, becomes a Super Heavy Vehicle, and is now 265 points - This seems like overkill to me.
IV - CODEX Necrons
Spoiler:
Special Rules Fixes:
1. All models have Relentless standard - Considering Necron shooting units don't really want to get into Melee, this is harmless.
2. On a roll to wound with a 6, Gauss weapons impose a -1 penalty to any save the unit might have gotten. This can obviously get rid of a 6++ or a 6+ cover save. - Interesting, but seems strange. It could be neat.
3. Tesla weapons lose the Snap Firing clause. - Rather, I would rework Snap Firing as a rule.
Special Equipment Fixes and Relics:
1. Mindshackle Scarabs impose a LD test in a challenge done on 3D6. If it is failed, the challenger may only hit the Necron character on a 6. - Or maybe a penalty to WS? I like the thinking here.
2. Tesseract Labyrinths are added back for any character to purchase for 25 points.
3. Dispersion Shields regain the reflect rule from the 5th edition codex - Eh, seems like another rule to remember. Maybe the unit gains Blind when a successful Invuln save is passed? Or the assaulter counts as a disordered charge against them when they pass their save?
4. The Orb Of Eternity is now 35 points.
HQ Fixes:
1. Overlords can buy a Jump Pack for 15 points. They can purchase a Hyperphase Sword + Dispersion Shield for 10 points or Voidblade + Particle Caster for 5 points - One of the things I both like and dislike about Necrons Codex is the lack of options for the models. I do like the Jump Pack option though. 2. Command Barges get the sweep attack they lost from the 5th edition codex
3. Destroyer Lords have a Warscythe by default and are now 120 points. - I think giving them options works out fine. I would rather they be WS and BS 5 like standard Overlords.
4. Crypteks can upgrade to the following rules. These upgrades are only once per detachment. In addition to their Staff Of Light:
. Harbingers Of Destruction carry the same weapon that Illuminor has, their unit has defensive grenades, and gains the Solar Pulse ability from the Solar Staff for a total of 30 points
. Harbingers Of Despair gain a S8 AP2 Assault 1 Flamer that rolls against LD to wound, their unit gains Deep Strike, and once per turn can force a Morale Check on an enemy unit for a total of 30 points
. Harbingers Of Storm gain a 12" S4 AP- Assault 4 Haywire Weapon, enemy units cannot Deep Strike within 8" of their unit, and enemies charging them suffer D6AP- wounds for a total of 25 points
. Harbingers Of Eternity gain a S:User AP2 Melee weapon, a 3++ save, and can reroll one dice for their unit per phase for a total of 20 points
. Harbingers Of Transmorgification gain a 30" S5 AP6 Assault 1 Blast Weapon that forces the unit hit to move as though it were in difficult terrain, their unit has Move Through Cover, and enemies charging at their unit suffer a 3" penalty to their charge for a total of 25 points
5. Anrakyr has a Master-Crafted Warscythe, and may choose which weapon to fire with his Mind In The Machine ability.
6. Trazyn has the Objective Secured rule, and his Surrogate Hosts rule includes Lychguard models. Trazyn is now 155 points.
7. Obyron has WS7, and Cleaving Counterblow activates in any initiative step when an opponent's model attacks in a challenge and misses; these additional attacks of course roll to hit as normal.
8. Szeras has It Will Not Die!
9. Zandrekh's Counter Tactics is instead a once-per-turn ability, and he chooses a squad within 12" to benefit from one of those listed Special Rules. Nemesor is now 170 points.
Troop Fixes:
1. Warriors are now 14 points per model
2. Immortals are now 18 points per model
Fast Attack Fixes:
1. Destroyers have 2 attacks in their profile
2. Tomb Blades pay 5 points for Shield Vanes and 3 points for Nebulascopes, and are now 19 points
3. Ghost Arks have no limitation on being only able to carry Warriors. - I like it! 4. Night Scythes are now 125 points.
Elite Fixes:
1. Deathmarks select their target for Hunters From Hyperspace when they deploy
2. Triarch Stalkers have AP2 melee attacks. - I like it! How about just Smash standard for all Walkers thought? 3. All C'Tan variants are moved here. In the shooting phase, roll a D3 to determine how many shooting attacks the C'Tan can perform. Each attack, if more than two can be targeted at different units.
Heavy Support Fixes:
1. Annihilation Barges are now 110 points
2. Monoliths lose Ordnance on their Particle Whip. Portal Of Exile is given back from the 5th edition codex. - I do believe that Ordnance needs to be changed overall.
Lord Of War Fixes:
1. Obelisks have a 270 degree firing arc for their Tesla Spheres, and that goes for the Tesla Spheres on the Tesseract Vault as well.
2. Tesseract Vaults roll 2D3, picking the highest value, when determining how many C'Tan shooting attacks it may make.
3. The Stormlord has a S+1 AP2 melee profile for his Staff Of The Destroyer, and continues rolling for the Lord Of The Storm attack so long as Night Fighting is active. The Stormlord is now 210 points.
V - CODEX Tyranids - I don't play Tyranids, so I can't comment on these ideas. However, I would give Warriors Eternal Warrior so they see some use again, and make Geanstealers the same across the Tyranids and Geanstealer Cult books.
2017/03/14 15:55:37
Subject: Re:Fixes I"d make for the game that I think work so far. IN PROGRESS FOREVER
Wyldhunt wrote: I like a lot of these! Commenting as I go through...
Main Rulebook:
* The "half grenades" rule seems like an odd compromise. I think it works mechanically, but I'm not sure it's really an improvement over "1 grenade per squad" or "everyone gets a grenade." I feel like either of these latter options might be cleaner and easier to both work with and to balance model rules and wargear prices around.
*Your psychic power proposals don't seem unresonable. I don't think there's anything wrong with most of the telekinesis or even pyromancy powers themselves. It's just that they tend to be overshadowed by more powerful or generally useful powers from other disciplines. So your porposals seem fine, but I feel it might be better to overhaul some core assumptions regarding the psychic system if we want to see major improvement.
MARINES
* Chainswords getting half of preferred enemy is redundant if you take any other rule that provides a similar benefit. I kind of like the idea of giving chainswords rending, +1 to the user's strength, or -1 to enemy armor saves. But that's its own conversation.
*Grav. I love your suggestions in general here. I'm not wild about rolling "d2" to determine how many hull points I take off of a big thing though. Maybe keep it at -1 HP, but replace the d2 part with "counts as being immobilized until the start of the next marine turn?" That way, you're still damaging them consistently without becoming D-strength, and you can set up other units to damage the super heavies more reliably.
CHAOS MARINES
* See marine-related stuff.
* The points costs I can't really comment on. I don't have my CSM book in front of me right now. I will say that I feel chaos is actually in a pretty good spot right now thanks to the Legions book.
NECRONS
*Tesla needs the snapfiring clause. Otherwise you end up in the 6th edition codex's situation where tesla is weirdly effective when snapfiring at flyers, etc.
*The C'tan getting d3 attacks is meant to off-set the randomness of their attacks, I assume? Or just to make them more powerful? I feel the latter might be too big an improvement, and the former is more easily done by simply letting them declare their target after generating the power. Or by having them generate the power at the start of the game like psychic powers.
TYRANIDS
*Scything talons. Not sure what you mean here. Is it a single reroll on your to-wounds per model like digital weapons? Is it rerolling all to-wound rolls of 1? If the latter, why to-wound rolls instead of to-hit like it used to be? Also, would this be a rule that only applied to attacks made with talons, or are talons treated as wargear that benefits other weapons? Sort of like harlequin weapons?
* Is the change to catalyst specifically to benefit GMCs? I can't think of any other FNP bugs. Oops. I see it now. The warrior buff.
*While I like the changes to the prime, I don't feel that his primary issue, that being his insane cost, is really addressed. While I like the options you've given him, I'd much rather have him simply start at a much lower cost with less expensive upgrades. Tyranids need a cheapish HQ option, and you've taken away Death Leaper as that option.
*Shrikes granting hit & run to all units in range seems extremely good. Especially when coupled with 'nids ability to tarpit extremely effectively. You could easily tarpit a knight, for instance, and then hit & run out to blast him with electroshock grubs before tying him up again. Or simply engage the entire enemy army, and then tear them apart unit by unit at your leisure. I'd take another look at this one and consider toning it down. Shrikes are already more desirable in your proposed rules set because they can keep up with beast gaunts while warriors can't.
*Hammer of wrath doesn't make a lot of sense on the trygon and seems like a bit of a pain logistically. It's one thing to resolve hammer of wraths with a marine bike army that often doesn't really want to charge you and generally has a relatively small model count. Imagine slowing the game down to position 50+ gaunts in such a way as to maximize your number of hammer of wraths. Also, I'm not clear on why the trygon grants that particular synapse buff. Would +1 initiative or +1 attack on the charge be more appropriate? Maybe even counting as having assault grenades as the trygon passes on information about the terrain using its "tremor sense."
*I'm not sure making the rupture cannon AP2 and cheaper really fixes its issues. You're still averaging a single glance and a single pen against most targets (that don't have some sort of save agains the attack). Making it AP2 just means that you'll average one exploded vehicle once a game if make one pen stick per turn.
Anything I didn't comment on is either awesome or something I didn't feel strongly about one way or the other.
1. You're right on powers. Pyromancy really only needs the tweaks I suggested, but I think Telekinesis needs a whole reworking simply because it is super unfocused.
2. I'll definitely take the Super Heavy suggestion on Grav.
3. Chainswords will probably keep the rerolling of 1 to wound. When you look at various powers and specific chapter abilities, you can plausibly ID a T4 critter with just a Chain sword.
4. On Necrons I'll compromise. How about no extra shots if the shooter is Jinking?
5. CTAN are supposed to be powerful but they're still slaves and don't like it (assuming they can think it). I was thinking a flat three chances to shoot, but I felt people would complain about it. So it was a combination of both. They should probably have FNP built in for whatever point cost. Maybe an extra 10 points to compromise the extra shooting they get?
6. Scything Talons get flat rerolls of any 1 to wound so it would be like their chainswords for comparison. They're meant to be their own thing, like pairs of Boneswords and Rending Claws and Lash Whips.
7. How about knock off 25 points from the Prime and they can buy the Mastery Level I suggested for them?
8. Shrikes aren't close to durable, which is why I have them giving the ability. I'm open to another suggestion for them though and the Trygon. I do like the +1I for them.
9. We can keep the Rupture cannon at its old point cost if we add another shot to them as well. What else can you really do to it though?
Why are Warpsmiths and Dark Apostles so much more expensive than Space Marine equivalents?
Why does Kharne-and ONLY Kharne-get Eternal Warrior? When Typhus, the champion of the god of NEVER F-ING DYING, doesn't?
Kharn gets it as he's the true warrior Khorne blessed and wouldn't let him be knocked out by simple weapons. Typhus gaining EW is just plain overkill on top of his already okay durability. Having IWND makes him more durable to anything not S10 and don't forget he can increase his own durability from the new Nurgle table presented in the TL book on top of him being able to grab a Palanquin thanks to me. That would be T5 6 Wounds EW. Nah I think we're good.
The justification for Warpsmiths and Apostles is that they give a couple more bonuses than their Corpse Worshipping counterparts.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jade_angel wrote: With the exception of a few minor cavils that others have mentioned, I mostly like these. However, I do have a question about one odd interaction with Gauss weapons - on a 6, you get a -1 penalty to saves. Does this affect AP? Suppose a Tomb Blade shoots at a Battle Sister with a gauss blaster and gets a 6 to wound - does she make an armor save that passes on a 4+, or does the gauss blaster's AP4 punch through that? (Obviously, her 6++ is neutralized).
I worded it so that it wouldn't be an issue (I think). It is a -1 penalty on the roll. So unless the weapon was negating the save already, they merely suffer a penalty unless it was the 6 save I made mention of. It is meant to make up for their lack of specialized weapons while not being terribly over the top.
AnomanderRake wrote: I like the core-rules tweaks overall, most of my disagreements are minor/stylistic.
Space Marines:
I'm skeptical of giving vehicles Chapter Tactics; it does almost nothing for most Chapters (given that Dreadnaughts already have Chapter Tactics). Running down the list the Chapters it does affect:
Imperial Fists: All benefits would apply fully to vehicles. Minor buffs, to be sure, but still buffs when almost no other Chapter is getting anything.
Black Templars: Non-Dreadnaught vehicles are getting Adamantium Will. A negligible benefit.
Salamanders: Land Speeders are getting twin-linked flamers. Significant, yes, but as Salamanders fluffwise don't have any Land Speeders it's an odd choice for a thing to buff.
And from Forge World:
Raptors: Depending on whether you apply the interpretation that a twin-linked weapon is a distinct weapon and not affected by things that would affect a non-twin-linked version (I know the weapon swaps in the 30k Salamanders and Blood Angels rules work this way) the hurricane bolters on your Land Raider Crusaders and Stormravens could choose to fire three Rending shots if the vehicle didn't move.
Angels Revenant: If you're fighting Necrons your vehicles get Preferred Enemy (Necrons). If you aren't the rule that comes into play instead doesn't do anything for them.
Red Hunters: The Mnemonic Redaction Protocols temporary USR could actually be relevant when applied to vehicles. Like, significantly relevant. Not just a random tiny situational buff the way most of this is.
Star Phantoms: The 1/game twin-linked on all non-Ordnance/Pistol weapons is nice. Unfluffy, but nice.
Fire Hawks: S6 heavy flamers on Land Speeders arriving from Deep Strike. Situational, impractical, but sort of cool.
So by giving vehicles Chapter Tactics you hand out a small set of wonky, unfluffy, or impractical buffs to most people, and an actually cool one to the Red Hunters. It seems more trouble than it's worth, honestly.
On weapons I'm skeptical of 5pts for upgrade pistols given the Gunslinger rule; every sergeant in your army could be spending 10pts for a plasma gun that can't fire single-shot-at-24" mode, or 10pts for two S8 shots. If you're going to keep the pistols at 5pts I'd say reduce the hitting power a bit the way the hand flamer is lower strength than the normal flamer (you're still spending 5pts for a S6/AP2 shot), but otherwise keep the plasma/inferno pistols at 10pts.
As for the Marine unit fixes they mostly make sense; I'd like to request that Vulkan and Lysander get Eternal Warrior back on profile instead of having to burn their Warlord Trait to do it.
And Tactical Terminators really ought to be 30pts with power weapons, and the option to upgrade to power fists. Even with cheaper assault cannons, more heavy weapons, and S5 storm bolters the problem of paying for powerfists on a unit you may not want anywhere near combat persists.
Not sure about porting Legion heavy support squads directly into the Devastator squad slot; I get that you're trying to distinguish Devastators from Tactical Marines after handing Tacticals the option to have three heavy weapons at ten models but I'd rather keep the option to have ablative wounds rather than being forced to pay for guns on everyone. Let everyone buy a heavy weapon, don't force them to start with it (this would also avoid needing to have multiple pricings on the armoury table).
Poison (2+) on all attacks for Plague Marines seems a bit excessive. I'm aware that the Deathwatch have Posioned (2+) bolt rounds, but they don't get Poison (2+) on grenades, flamers, or attacks with any AP value, and they're also not T5/FNP. I'm also aware you're trying to distinguish Plague Marines from Nurgle-marked Marines. I'd rather see Poison (3+) on bolt weapons and melee attacks only, leave the grenades/special weapons using their base profile.
Land Raider prices seem like they're starting to stretch past reasonable to me. I'd keep the base variants at 200pts and give CSMPotMS (given both that they had it in the 31st milennium and that they're more likely to be experimenting with AI in the interim than the Mechanicum), the Land Raider may be too squishy if you've got the D-weapons to one-shot it but it's also way too tough if you bring it to a game where the other guy wasn't expecting it and doesn't have the specific tools to deal with it (maybe he's Martel and has decided that S7 is the answer to everything, and refused to bring anything else).
Defiler as a 4-HP Superheavy: *bleep* no. It's a well-established fact that 'superheavy' starts at 6HP, if you haven't broken that barrier (Minotaur, Spartan, Lynx) you're still an ordinary vehicle. And the Defiler isn't really big enough to justify it. Look at the height and bulk of anything in the existing rules with Stomp, then look at the Defiler.
If you want to give the Defiler a pseudo-Stomp rule I'd say write up a pseudo-Stomp rule rather than making it a superheavy and giving it multiple chances per turn for a 6-to-RFP template at a bizarre pricepoint and model-size bracket.
1. Being in a vehicle shouldn't suddenly make the Imperial Fists less good at shooting Bolter weapons or for whatever reason not give the Flamestorm benefits when used by Salamanders. It simply makes more sense. I haven't done the FW stuff for any codex yet. I want to focus on the codex stuff first and then start tackling the FW stuff.
2. Pistols have too short of range to really be that expensive. The balance between them and Combi-Weapons is that the Combi gets more range anyway, plus any sergeant is likely going to die anyway after firing those shots. Rule of cool applies here I suppose. Plasma Pistols are also only S7 and hand flamers are already significantly weaker than a regular flamer. Lysander already has EW standard and his/Vulkan traits are the FNP one.
3. Tactical Terminators will keep their Power Fists. This is a legacy issue on top of a way to differentiate them from Grey Knights, Space Wolves, and Chaos Marines.
4. Deathwatch and Sternguard have multiple ammo options and more weapon choices compared to Plague Marines. It doesn't terribly break them and gives them a more offensive punch to make up for their smaller numbers compared to other options. Plus it really isn't that bad mathematically. The furthest I'll compromise is making everything Poison (3+) but that's about it.
5. You don't pay for a lot with a Land Raider outside the AV14 and transport capacity. If you've played with a 170 point Chaos Land Raider you'll see it isn't that big a deal. This makes them something reasonable that might pop up and ergo you need to dedicate more to less, so to speak.
6. I swear I gave the Defiler another HP. I think it's large enough to qualify but I suppose we need everyone else to chime in.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2017/03/14 17:27:39
Subject: Re:Fixes I"d make for the game that I think work so far. IN PROGRESS FOREVER
Except there's a LOT of Strength 10, to which his wounds, IWND, and Feel No Pain mean absolutely nothing. He should either be Eternal Warrior or Toughness 6-especially since CHAPLAIN F-ING CASSIUS IS T6! That pisses me off to no end. A Space Marine with some robo parts is T6, but Typhus, champion of Nurgle, isn't?
If WS is equal, hit on a 4+.
If WS is greater, hit on a 3+.
If WS is double plus one, hit on a 2+.
If WS is lesser, hit on a 5+.
If WS is lesser by 3 or more, hit on a 6+.
Edit: Also, Warpsmiths are pretty much a complete wash. They should be the exact same price as Loyalist Tech Marines. (Shatter Defenses isn't as good as Bolster Defenses, but they also get Weapon Curse, so a wash.)
Dark Apostles could be maybe 5 points more than a Chaplain, but not much more than that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/14 17:28:43
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2017/03/14 19:07:16
Subject: Fixes I"d make for the game that I think work so far. IN PROGRESS FOREVER
Does it ever strike anyone else as odd that I, the Eldar player in the room, am the one trying to argue that a sane response to the OPness of some of the Eldar book is to nerf the problem units instead of buffing the rest of the game to compensate, while it's the Space Marine players claiming that the Eldar players will never accept a nerf and they have to rewrite their Codexes to fight D-weapon spam and scatterbikes?
1. Being in a vehicle shouldn't suddenly make the Imperial Fists less good at shooting Bolter weapons or for whatever reason not give the Flamestorm benefits when used by Salamanders. It simply makes more sense. I haven't done the FW stuff for any codex yet. I want to focus on the codex stuff first and then start tackling the FW stuff.
I'm not saying being in a vehicle should make Imperial Fist suddenly less good at shooting bolters. I'm saying that Chapter Tactics generally deserve a rethink if you want to apply this change rather than making a one-sentence change that doesn't make a lot of sense anywhere else.
2. Pistols have too short of range to really be that expensive. The balance between them and Combi-Weapons is that the Combi gets more range anyway, plus any sergeant is likely going to die anyway after firing those shots. Rule of cool applies here I suppose. Plasma Pistols are also only S7 and hand flamers are already significantly weaker than a regular flamer...
Why would you ever take a meltagun again, if you could get two shots for the same price on a unit that's already busy getting to point-blank range of its targets? Combined with Drop Pods you're going to functionally double the effectiveness of suicide-melta for free because...rule of cool?
(EDIT): Suggest giving the Eldar drop pods and give Fire Dragons dual fusion pistols and I promise I'll take the whole pistol suggestion seriously.
3. Tactical Terminators will keep their Power Fists. This is a legacy issue on top of a way to differentiate them from Grey Knights, Space Wolves, and Chaos Marines.
I'm sorry, but this is a stupid argument. 40pts/model for Terminators was a legacy issue. Trying to claim a single autocannon is a useful main gun for a tank is a legacy issue. Legacy issues are a terrible reason for doing anything.
If you're so insistent on differentiating units from the six Legions in the vanilla book from Space Wolf Terminators why aren't you arguing that Blood Angels and Deathwing need different basic armaments? Why aren't you trying to replace the bolter on Tactical Squads? Why do Terminators deserve to be stuck with stupid expensive toys they never get to make use of? Why do Salamanders Terminators and Imperial Fists Terminators have the same armament if neither one ought to have the same armament as Space Wolf Terminators? Why aren't you trying to differentiate Space Wolf Terminators from Chaos Terminators? Why are GK even in this argument, they've got force weapons, not power weapons?
4. Deathwatch and Sternguard have multiple ammo options and more weapon choices compared to Plague Marines. It doesn't terribly break them and gives them a more offensive punch to make up for their smaller numbers compared to other options. Plus it really isn't that bad mathematically. The furthest I'll compromise is making everything Poison (3+) but that's about it.
...
...
...
...No, seriously, when did wounds everything short of a Wraithknight on 2+ become not that bad mathematically?
5. You don't pay for a lot with a Land Raider outside the AV14 and transport capacity. If you've played with a 170 point Chaos Land Raider you'll see it isn't that big a deal. This makes them something reasonable that might pop up and ergo you need to dedicate more to less, so to speak.
And if you'd ever tried to play GK, or Orks, or a 30k list with no superheavies, you'd recognize that AV14 all-round is a huge deal.
6. I swear I gave the Defiler another HP. I think it's large enough to qualify but I suppose we need everyone else to chime in.
...You need everyone else to chime in to tell you that the Defiler is only 5-6" tall and the next-smallest model with Stomp is over a foot tall?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/03/14 19:10:56
AnomanderRake wrote: Does it ever strike anyone else as odd that I, the Eldar player in the room, am the one trying to argue that a sane response to the OPness of some of the Eldar book is to nerf the problem units instead of buffing the rest of the game to compensate, while it's the Space Marine players claiming that the Eldar players will never accept a nerf and they have to rewrite their Codexes to fight D-weapon spam and scatterbikes?
1. Being in a vehicle shouldn't suddenly make the Imperial Fists less good at shooting Bolter weapons or for whatever reason not give the Flamestorm benefits when used by Salamanders. It simply makes more sense. I haven't done the FW stuff for any codex yet. I want to focus on the codex stuff first and then start tackling the FW stuff.
I'm not saying being in a vehicle should make Imperial Fist suddenly less good at shooting bolters. I'm saying that Chapter Tactics generally deserve a rethink if you want to apply this change rather than making a one-sentence change that doesn't make a lot of sense anywhere else.
2. Pistols have too short of range to really be that expensive. The balance between them and Combi-Weapons is that the Combi gets more range anyway, plus any sergeant is likely going to die anyway after firing those shots. Rule of cool applies here I suppose. Plasma Pistols are also only S7 and hand flamers are already significantly weaker than a regular flamer...
Why would you ever take a meltagun again, if you could get two shots for the same price on a unit that's already busy getting to point-blank range of its targets? Combined with Drop Pods you're going to functionally double the effectiveness of suicide-melta for free because...rule of cool?
(EDIT): Suggest giving the Eldar drop pods and give Fire Dragons dual fusion pistols and I promise I'll take the whole pistol suggestion seriously.
3. Tactical Terminators will keep their Power Fists. This is a legacy issue on top of a way to differentiate them from Grey Knights, Space Wolves, and Chaos Marines.
I'm sorry, but this is a stupid argument. 40pts/model for Terminators was a legacy issue. Trying to claim a single autocannon is a useful main gun for a tank is a legacy issue. Legacy issues are a terrible reason for doing anything.
If you're so insistent on differentiating units from the six Legions in the vanilla book from Space Wolf Terminators why aren't you arguing that Blood Angels and Deathwing need different basic armaments? Why aren't you trying to replace the bolter on Tactical Squads? Why do Terminators deserve to be stuck with stupid expensive toys they never get to make use of? Why do Salamanders Terminators and Imperial Fists Terminators have the same armament if neither one ought to have the same armament as Space Wolf Terminators? Why aren't you trying to differentiate Space Wolf Terminators from Chaos Terminators? Why are GK even in this argument, they've got force weapons, not power weapons?
4. Deathwatch and Sternguard have multiple ammo options and more weapon choices compared to Plague Marines. It doesn't terribly break them and gives them a more offensive punch to make up for their smaller numbers compared to other options. Plus it really isn't that bad mathematically. The furthest I'll compromise is making everything Poison (3+) but that's about it.
...
...
...
...No, seriously, when did wounds everything short of a Wraithknight on 2+ become not that bad mathematically?
5. You don't pay for a lot with a Land Raider outside the AV14 and transport capacity. If you've played with a 170 point Chaos Land Raider you'll see it isn't that big a deal. This makes them something reasonable that might pop up and ergo you need to dedicate more to less, so to speak.
And if you'd ever tried to play GK, or Orks, or a 30k list with no superheavies, you'd recognize that AV14 all-round is a huge deal.
6. I swear I gave the Defiler another HP. I think it's large enough to qualify but I suppose we need everyone else to chime in.
...You need everyone else to chime in to tell you that the Defiler is only 5-6" tall and the next-smallest model with Stomp is over a foot tall?
1. Which Chapter Tactics really cause an issue though with that single wording? If it is too many I'll do everyone individually.
2. You'd take a Melta Gun because it isn't an option for anyone not a character and has twice the range, which makes Melta easier to do? You do know that the range of an inferno pistol is 6"? It seems you're unfamiliar with some of the stats of the weapons here.
Also that Fire Dragon comment makes less sense because on top of everyone getting Melta Guns standard they get bonuses to blowing things up? The only way to do what you want is 5 Vanguard all with Pistols in a Pod. Vanguard are 19 a piece and the Drop Pod is 35 with everyone being 10 points more each (so 29). That's really not bad. Pretty sure your Dragons aren't near that price.
3. They're supposed to make use of Power Fists. The issue comes from variants being too expensive and paying for a small amount of heavy weapons and Storm Bolters. I fixed this issue. At 30 points with Power weapons you can compare to Vanguard and Honour Guard.
Also I plan to differentiate Space Wolf Terminators from the other guys. Grey Knights only need a couple of tweaks. However, Tactical Terminators have always had Power Fists and Chainfists. That's their thing. I'm simply making them more worth the cost. If you want hidden power fists I listed units to help you out.
4. Sternguard aren't broken, are they? It is the same offensive output except Sternguard are cheaper. These are Bolters and special weapons we are talking about. This isn't like Windriders where everyone is throwing out 3-4 shots for 27 points. These guys throw out 1-2 each for 22-23 points. Now you can do the math instead of just saying it is ridiculous.
5. Defilers might be 6" tall (though I believe they're 8"), they also occupy a lot of space.
I can compromise by simply giving them the Stomp rule and figuring out a different way to make them appealing. Maybe they just gain 3" to their movement...
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2017/03/14 21:24:16
Subject: Fixes I"d make for the game that I think work so far. IN PROGRESS FOREVER
1. Which Chapter Tactics really cause an issue though with that single wording? If it is too many I'll do everyone individually.
The issue is that you're giving out oddly-placed free buffs to a fraction of Space Marine armies that didn't need the help for no readily-apparent reason.
2. You'd take a Melta Gun because it isn't an option for anyone not a character and has twice the range, which makes Melta easier to do? You do know that the range of an inferno pistol is 6"? It seems you're unfamiliar with some of the stats of the weapons here.
Also that Fire Dragon comment makes less sense because on top of everyone getting Melta Guns standard they get bonuses to blowing things up? The only way to do what you want is 5 Vanguard all with Pistols in a Pod. Vanguard are 19 a piece and the Drop Pod is 35 with everyone being 10 points more each (so 29). That's really not bad. Pretty sure your Dragons aren't near that price.
Two shots. 3" longer melta range. Two shots. 3" longer melta range. One is vastly better than the other. I wonder if you can tell me which.
The Fire Dragons comment was there in an attempt to gauge whether you seriously think two inferno pistols are worth the same as a meltagun or whether this is a moment of provincialist buff-my-Codex. (Fire Dragons are 22pts/model. Your proposed Vanguard Veterans would be paying 7pts/model for S4, T4, 2A, ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, and the opportunity cost of having access to different loadouts, over I5, Fleet, Battle Focus, and a +1 on the vehicle damage table.)
3. They're supposed to make use of Power Fists. The issue comes from variants being too expensive and paying for a small amount of heavy weapons and Storm Bolters. I fixed this issue. At 30 points with Power weapons you can compare to Vanguard and Honour Guard.
Also I plan to differentiate Space Wolf Terminators from the other guys. Grey Knights only need a couple of tweaks. However, Tactical Terminators have always had Power Fists and Chainfists. That's their thing. I'm simply making them more worth the cost. If you want hidden power fists I listed units to help you out.
So scrap Tactical Terminators and make a new unit that isn't forced to buy power fists. I don't care if powerfists are "their thing", the biggest and most fundamental problem with that unit is that it's trying to pay points to be generalist and it's really bad at it.
4. Sternguard aren't broken, are they? It is the same offensive output except Sternguard are cheaper. These are Bolters and special weapons we are talking about. This isn't like Windriders where everyone is throwing out 3-4 shots for 27 points. These guys throw out 1-2 each for 22-23 points. Now you can do the math instead of just saying it is ridiculous.
Sternguard aren't broken, no. They're also not T5, don't have FNP, don't have 2+ poison in melee, aren't Fearless, and can't get 2+ poison on AP2 or AoE weapons.
I'd really like you to get it out of your head that nothing can be ridiculous if it's worse than a scatterbike unit. Believe it or not if you were actually trying to fix anything you'd be changing the problem units instead of buffing everything else to compete with them.
I have the power to do the math, true. I can tell you they're worse than Windriders against the vast majority of things. I can also tell you they're better than any infantry unit, even at that pricepoint, has any right to be. Perhaps you might stop undervaluing T5 if you started designing units under the assumption that Strength values below 6 exist.
5. Defilers might be 6" tall (though I believe they're 8"), they also occupy a lot of space.
I can compromise by simply giving them the Stomp rule and figuring out a different way to make them appealing. Maybe they just gain 3" to their movement...
...So can you tell me what was wrong with them that you think you need to put moreRFP-on-6 effects in the game?
I'm going to tell you a brief story about why giving anything Stomp is a stupid idea. Once upon a time I went to a standard, ordinary, 1,850pt 7e 40k tournament. Being the naiive young fellow I was I brought my Wraithknight along. On the second turn of the game I moved it up and charged the edge of a Thunderwolf deathstar that was sitting in the middle of the table. We fought a round of combat, my opponent's big scary people were too far away to pile in far enough to attack the Wraithknight, but they duitifully moved in closer. I then made my Stomp attacks, and managed to roll a 6.
That 6 RFPed 600pts of Space Wolf characters, and quite directly won me the game (as well it might, when I'm playing 600pts up).
Do you think that was a positive experience for my opponent? Do you think that was a positive experience for me?
If you choose to put "Roll a 6: win the game" effects in the game why should anyone choose to play the game rather than just rolling dice to see who gets a 6 first?
Stomp shouldn't exist in the first place, let alone be given to more things.
1. So you're telling me you don't want blanket Chapter Tactics for vehicles because you don't want buffs? And what exactly is oddly placed about it? You need to actually defend these positions that I made mention of. You know, the ones you do the like "because". It is bad reasoning and I won't bother having a conversation with someone that doesn't like changes (and ones that make sense) because. Now if you can think of a balance and fluff reason that makes this change not make any sense, feel free to say so.
2. Like I said, you pay for safer range. You say it is only a 3" difference, but that's 6" to 3", and a total range of 12" to 6". You can buy an extra Combi-Melta if you think the squad will last any longer than a turn and have a range greater than 6" with the bought Bolter.
And no, Inferno Pistols are nowhere near worth the price of 15 points or a Melta Gun. They're worth 5 points, just like a Combi-Weapon, which you didn't compare it to in order to fit your narrative. This isn't a matter of "Buff my codex". If you read the Tyranids fixes I made as a sign of good faith (I dont play the codex but I know how they should operate) you would see that, but once again that doesn't fit your narrative.
You point comparisons of Dragons vs Vanguard also makes little sense due to you making comparisons with rules that'll never be used (oh boy Chapter Tactics! But which one really benefits Vanguard dropping out of a Pod? Oh, and that super powerful ATSKNF!) You're looking at quantity of rules, not quality.
3. That's why I made Tactical Terminators better at being a generalist unit and made the Assault variant cheaper to go into. They're now TAC Shock Troopers or pure melee Shock Troopers. I'm pretty happy with the changes and I bet if you play tested them you'd have fun.
4. Plague Marines also don't have access to Ignores Cover outside the flamer, decent range of pure AP3 without special weapons, and can't spam Special weapons on top of the ammo that Sternguard have. You also forgot to mention Chapter Tactics like some people like to do for justifications but I think I'll let it slide for now.
Like I said, I'll go halvsies and make them a universal Poison 3+, but that's about it.
I also didn't bring any issues into the game with the proposed changes. I'd say those four codices I updated are on pretty even standing now. You buff what needs to be buffed and nerf what needs to be nerfed. I listened to other people that posted here and will change things accordingly in the OP; you just want everything down across the board because.
5. Your opponent was stupid to charge that expensive a unit into a unit that can Stomp. Wraithknights can keep their rules; they just need to be appropriately costed (around 350-365 seems correct, though I lean towards 350).
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2017/03/15 00:21:19
Subject: Fixes I"d make for the game that I think work so far. IN PROGRESS FOREVER
Okay. I don't know if you're intentionally refusing to understand me or understanding and choosing to ignore it, but I'm not going to reiterate the broader points a third time while you continue to get bogged down in details.
And I'd consider giving the Defiler everything a Superheavy gets BUT Stomp-that might make it good. Stomp is too good, though.
How about a singular Stomp attack? After all, with all those legs it should be able to do gak.
Giving it Rampage makes sense too. It is hard to give the Defiler a specific role...
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2017/03/15 04:24:05
Subject: Re:Fixes I"d make for the game that I think work so far. IN PROGRESS FOREVER
And I'd consider giving the Defiler everything a Superheavy gets BUT Stomp-that might make it good. Stomp is too good, though.
How about a singular Stomp attack? After all, with all those legs it should be able to do gak.
Giving it Rampage makes sense too. It is hard to give the Defiler a specific role...
And maybe set it up like the Eldar Wraith Troops D-Weapons so that its ability to RFP be curtailed? It's big, but it's not Knight big.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
2017/03/15 04:33:22
Subject: Re:Fixes I"d make for the game that I think work so far. IN PROGRESS FOREVER
And I'd consider giving the Defiler everything a Superheavy gets BUT Stomp-that might make it good. Stomp is too good, though.
How about a singular Stomp attack? After all, with all those legs it should be able to do gak.
Giving it Rampage makes sense too. It is hard to give the Defiler a specific role...
And maybe set it up like the Eldar Wraith Troops D-Weapons so that its ability to RFP be curtailed? It's big, but it's not Knight big.
Wraithguard need a whole reworking. I know I'd like the Scythes to be S4 AP2 Fleshbane and glances vehicles on a 4+. However I haven't really finalized anything with them. Right now after finishing the Tyranids codex I'd like people here to decide which codex I really focus on.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2017/03/15 05:37:46
Subject: Re:Fixes I"d make for the game that I think work so far. IN PROGRESS FOREVER
And I'd consider giving the Defiler everything a Superheavy gets BUT Stomp-that might make it good. Stomp is too good, though.
How about a singular Stomp attack? After all, with all those legs it should be able to do gak.
Giving it Rampage makes sense too. It is hard to give the Defiler a specific role...
And maybe set it up like the Eldar Wraith Troops D-Weapons so that its ability to RFP be curtailed? It's big, but it's not Knight big.
Stomp should be curtailed by changes to how stomp works.
It's way too inconsistent in power.
Anything in 3+ armour or better is pretty much safe.
Vehicles are pretty much always going to suffer a penetrating hit
Does that really make sense to anyone?
I'd suggest changing stomp to all models under the marker take an Initiative test, any that fail take a hit at the Stomping model's strength (no weapon/furious charge bonuses, but blessing and malediction modifiers still apply) and Ap2.-Vehicles would take the hit on their side armour value.
2017/03/15 06:41:56
Subject: Re:Fixes I"d make for the game that I think work so far. IN PROGRESS FOREVER
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Wraithguard need a whole reworking. I know I'd like the Scythes to be S4 AP2 Fleshbane and glances vehicles on a 4+. However I haven't really finalized anything with them. Right now after finishing the Tyranids codex I'd like people here to decide which codex I really focus on.
Well, true, Str D should not exist on anything less then a Super-Heavy. Str D was invented BECAUSE of Super-Heavies.
But my point was more to take advantage of that unique little thing the Wraithguard have in which they do not have access to the 6 result of Str D Weapons, and even increases the chances that it does nothing, and apply it to a Defiler Stomp.
Jbz` wrote:Stomp should be curtailed by changes to how stomp works.
It's way too inconsistent in power.
Anything in 3+ armour or better is pretty much safe.
Vehicles are pretty much always going to suffer a penetrating hit
Does that really make sense to anyone?
I'd suggest changing stomp to all models under the marker take an Initiative test, any that fail take a hit at the Stomping model's strength (no weapon/furious charge bonuses, but blessing and malediction modifiers still apply) and Ap2.-Vehicles would take the hit on their side armour value.
It makes sense, but how would that affect a Defiler's Stomp? Having a Stomp would be helpful, and rather characterful, but if it does have a Stomp, it should not be as powerful as what an Imperial Knight so have an reduced affect.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
2017/03/15 06:57:35
Subject: Fixes I"d make for the game that I think work so far. IN PROGRESS FOREVER
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So I obviously make lots of suggestions in different threads on how to fix stuff, but don't really keep everything together in one neat package. This kinda alleviates that I guess. People expecting consistent updates are to be disappointed, because I work most days of the week on top of additional schooling. That's the price I pay, I guess. One thing to note is that all initial fixes are made without considering Formations. I want to make things work enough that you'll want to take a couple of CADs because variety is the spice of life and all that jazz. So anybody playtesting these rules (if you really want to do that for whatever reason) needs to really keep that in mind. Also I'll listen to any criticisms you have, but if your reasoning is "It doesn't feel right" I'll ignore it because that's not based off math or fluff.
I would almost be happy to adopt these fixes as is. They address the majority of complaints I have with 40k right now and I have thought about many of them myself.
The one area I see opportunities to improve is with CSMs. The fixes proposed don't go far enough - or maybe I am reading them wrong. This is what I would add, and why:
Special Equipment, Icon, and Mark Fixes, along with Relics:
1) Deep Striking units never scatter if they arrive within 12 inches of an Icon.
Because CSMs are a cc oriented army and lack dedicated transport options other than the Rhino and Land Raider. Being able to deep strike with precision is important.
HQ Fixes
1) Warpsmiths and Dark Apostles can be mounted on bikes.
Because they are generic HQs and would be a lot more useful if they had synergy with bikers and spawn.
Elites Fixes:
1) Noise Marines: Sonic Blasters do not have the salvo special rule.
Because it's basically a bolter, and it's not worth the points otherwise.
2) Noise Marines: Icon of Excess makes them Relentless.
Because being able to shoot Blastmasters while moving is more in line with their nature.
3) Possessed Marines: have shred.
Because they are expensive at 30 points a piece and need more offense to justify the cost.
Fast Attack Fixes:
1) Spawn: have Endless Rage (from Black Legion) instead of Furious Charge.
Because they should be at least as fiercesome as Chosen troops in a Black Legion force.
Heavy Support Fixes:
1) Defiler: can fire ordinance weapons along with other weapons without a reduction in BS.
Because the Defiler is not as useful as Forgefiends without this enhancement.
It makes sense, but how would that affect a Defiler's Stomp? Having a Stomp would be helpful, and rather characterful, but if it does have a Stomp, it should not be as powerful as what an Imperial Knight so have a reduced effect.
Well Defilers are Strength 8 not 10 like a Knight.
On another note would similar rules for Tank shock work out?
Initiative test, fail = Vehicle's ram Strength hit at Ap 2
Would at least make trying to assault vehicles a bit more dangerous...
2017/03/16 14:42:17
Subject: Fixes I"d make for the game that I think work so far. IN PROGRESS FOREVER
I'll take the time when I get home from work to update the OP and respond to other posters. As well, I'd like to know what codex I should focus on next.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2017/03/17 06:18:05
Subject: Fixes I"d make for the game that I think work so far. IN PROGRESS FOREVER
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, for 30 pts possessed should have rending, 2 ccw and charge after run as base option - like wuffen. Cause 2 wounds are not enough to justify their mediocricy for such an enormous price. Or just make them significantly cheaper.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, there's nothing about mutilators other than a 5 pt drop - i assume they're great as is
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/03/17 08:25:25
2017/03/17 10:38:17
Subject: Fixes I"d make for the game that I think work so far. IN PROGRESS FOREVER
As a Blood Angels player I object to you squatting all of our unique units, otherwise known as half th codex
I don't think storm bolters should be S5, they're bolters.They should either function like 2 bolters fired as a single weapon, or have rending. The first one at least makes the Sternguard issue instantly moot.
5pts for a pistol is incredibly cheap. They sacrifice a small (yes small) amount of range for double the RoF and a CCW. Don't forget you can assault after firing plasma pistols.
Personally I'd like Devastators to be able to take special weapons as well. But they'd be insane in Drop Pods.
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~4000 
