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In the Rise of the Primarch books there are many scenes of Grey Knights revealing themselves to the rest of the Imperium and no mention of mass mind wipes or executions for the pointless sake of secrecy. The most egregious example being Grand Master Voldus accompanying Robute Guilliman in a parade on Ultramar (with Voldus even apprehending a Slannesh corrupted politician). I going to assume that either Robute ordered ended or the Inquisition has given up the attempts to hide the existence of Grey Knights or there's been a some what large lore oversight on the part of the writers.

They won too many tournaments in 5th to be a secret.

yes people saw the Grey Knights, but as far as most of them are concerned they saw well.. space marines.

BrianDavion wrote:
yes people saw the Grey Knights, but as far as most of them are concerned they saw well.. space marines.

Plenty of psychic demon blasting on the part of GK right next to regular troops, and then the whole executed a slannesh puppet during a parade. Inquisition's gone to extremes to keep less revealing incidents a secret. I'd have a hard time believing the over zealous inquisition just said well maybe people will think they are regular marines.

BrianDavion wrote:
yes people saw the Grey Knights, but as far as most of them are concerned they saw well.. space marines.

This

Grey Knights aren't the secret. Daemons, and specifically just how powerful and numerous they are is the secret. Seeing a bunch of grey knights is little different than seeing a bunch of space marines. KNowing that there is a huge force of more expensive and specialized space marines specifically to fight daemons would be a secret.

Exergy wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
yes people saw the Grey Knights, but as far as most of them are concerned they saw well.. space marines.

This

Grey Knights are the secret. Daemons, and specifically just how powerful and numerous they are is the secret. Seeing a bunch of grey knights is little different than seeing a bunch of space marines. KNowing that there is a huge force of more expensive and specialized space marines specifically to fight daemons would be a secret.

I don't disagree with the general ignorance of the Imperium's citizens in distinguishing SM Chapters, but I would say that the idea that a Chapter is dedicated to fighting Daemons is no big secret. The Exorcists are the only known Grey Knights successor chapter, are specifically tailored to fight Daemons (Undergoing controlled possession during training) and are comparatively well known in the Imperium. For instance, they have fought in at least four separate conflicts alongside other Imperial forces, including mortals, with no mention of purges afterwards:

Aschen War - Fought Nightlords, Cultists and Daemons on Dimmamar, alongside other Space Marine chapters, two Imperial Guard Regiments and Sisters of Battle.

Badab War - Fought alongside 12 other SM chapters, plus supporting Imperial Navy assets and (presumably) IG or 'human' assets such as Stormtroopers.

Third Armageddon War, 13th Black Crusade - Both campaigns fought alongside millions of mortal humans and other SM's.

In these instances, although the Chapter in question is not the Grey Knights, it clearly demonstrates that no particular sanction is enacted on SMs or Humans for having knowledge of A) A dedicated Daemon hunting Chapter, B) The idea of Chaos C) The existence of Daemons.

In summary, IMHO, I consider that particular bit of fluff as either out-dated or in place for some other reason other than being Chaos/Daemon related (Perhaps to limit their enemies knowledge of the Grey Knights - although with Kaldor swanning about in the warp and burning down Nurgles garden, I gather they're well aware of them ). Considering the sheer number of Chaotic conflicts, cultist uprisings, daemonic events and even technology such as Geller Fields, I find it rather unconvincing that the IoM regularly purges anybody in contact with any of the prior mentioned events - even the IoM has to conserve manpower in it's immediate warzones as the fluctuation of the warp and the pressing needs of war elsewhere makes reinforcement tenuous at best. Similarly, I find it unbelievable that the common citizen doesn't have even a tiny inkling of what's going on. Rather, I imagine that they will know of Chaos and Daemons, but they are only permitted to knowledge to the extent that they would consider them either just another alien foe or would have it rigorously drilled into them how terrible Chaos is and how best to avoid it. As you say, I think it's the knowledge of just how insidious and powerful they are that is the main 'secret' and the purging after the First Armageddon War was to retain the secret that even Primarchs, the Emperor's own sons, could be turned to Daemons.

The Badab and third Armageddon wars didn't involve any actions against daemons, though. The Exorcists may be particularly well-suited amongst standard Marine Chapters to fight against daemons, but they're not specifically armed for such, nor are they dedicated to fighting daemons.

AndrewGPaul wrote:The Badab and third Armageddon wars didn't involve any actions against daemons, though. The Exorcists may be particularly well-suited amongst standard Marine Chapters to fight against daemons, but they're not specifically armed for such, nor are they dedicated to fighting daemons.

This, except the 1st Armageddon War was a totally Daemon war, featuring legions of Bloodletters, 12 Bloodthirsters bodyguarding Daemon Primarch Angron, a Brotherhood of Grey Knights and a cold war between the Inquisition and Space Wolves following the attempted purging

Warpig1815 wrote:

Exergy wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
yes people saw the Grey Knights, but as far as most of them are concerned they saw well.. space marines.

This

Grey Knights are the secret. Daemons, and specifically just how powerful and numerous they are is the secret. Seeing a bunch of grey knights is little different than seeing a bunch of space marines. KNowing that there is a huge force of more expensive and specialized space marines specifically to fight daemons would be a secret.

I don't disagree with the general ignorance of the Imperium's citizens in distinguishing SM Chapters, but I would say that the idea that a Chapter is dedicated to fighting Daemons is no big secret. The Exorcists are the only known Grey Knights successor chapter, are specifically tailored to fight Daemons (Undergoing controlled possession during training) and are comparatively well known in the Imperium. For instance, they have fought in at least four separate conflicts alongside other Imperial forces, including mortals, with no mention of purges afterwards:

Aschen War - Fought Nightlords, Cultists and Daemons on Dimmamar, alongside other Space Marine chapters, two Imperial Guard Regiments and Sisters of Battle.

Badab War - Fought alongside 12 other SM chapters, plus supporting Imperial Navy assets and (presumably) IG or 'human' assets such as Stormtroopers.

Third Armageddon War, 13th Black Crusade - Both campaigns fought alongside millions of mortal humans and other SM's.

In these instances, although the Chapter in question is not the Grey Knights, it clearly demonstrates that no particular sanction is enacted on SMs or Humans for having knowledge of A) A dedicated Daemon hunting Chapter, B) The idea of Chaos C) The existence of Daemons.

In summary, IMHO, I consider that particular bit of fluff as either out-dated or in place for some other reason other than being Chaos/Daemon related (Perhaps to limit their enemies knowledge of the Grey Knights - although with Kaldor swanning about in the warp and burning down Nurgles garden, I gather they're well aware of them ). Considering the sheer number of Chaotic conflicts, cultist uprisings, daemonic events and even technology such as Geller Fields, I find it rather unconvincing that the IoM regularly purges anybody in contact with any of the prior mentioned events - even the IoM has to conserve manpower in it's immediate warzones as the fluctuation of the warp and the pressing needs of war elsewhere makes reinforcement tenuous at best. Similarly, I find it unbelievable that the common citizen doesn't have even a tiny inkling of what's going on. Rather, I imagine that they will know of Chaos and Daemons, but they are only permitted to knowledge to the extent that they would consider them either just another alien foe or would have it rigorously drilled into them how terrible Chaos is and how best to avoid it. As you say, I think it's the knowledge of just how insidious and powerful they are that is the main 'secret' and the purging after the First Armageddon War was to retain the secret that even Primarchs, the Emperor's own sons, could be turned to Daemons.

How much, however, is known of the Exorcists' training? They are NOT, repeat N-O-T NOT a successor to the Grey Knights. Sorry to be rude, but I'm sick of seeing people say this. They are inspired by the idea of the Grey Knights, as a dedicated Daemon chapter, but they DONT have the GK's Emperor geneseed, because the Grey Knights would never give that up without a fight, and they don't operate like the GK in any capacity. They also aren't Daemonhosts, but ex-Daemonhosts, so to the rest of the Imperium they are just another batch of red space marines with an archaic name.

And the common citizen is absolutely clueless about Chaos. Chaos is to the Imperium what Communism was to Cold War USA; a system that offered prosperity and happiness to the masses and threatened the control of the rich businessmen and politicians. Do you know how readily the Imperium would dive head-first into Chaos if they knew about it? Switching from an oppressive authoritarian regime that will either work you to death or use you as cannon fodder, to a religion and society that openly encourages you to have planet-wide orgies, eat all the food you want, makes being sick a gift from the gods (literally) and removes fear of death, rewards ambition, drive, vengeance and violence and living life as you please, and will grant you immortality if you kill enough of the oppressive masters?

The Imperium NEEDS Chaos to be secret or everyone will happily march down the serpent's throat. As to the examples you've given:

Chaotic conflicts? If the Chaos Space Marines or bloodthirsty Daemons dont brutally slaughter and torture you, the Inquisition will A) Purge you to prevent information spreading B) Exterminatus the planet because its too far gone to risk keeping around

Chaos Uprisings? Assuming the cultists don't disembowel you and sacrifice your manly bits to summon Daemons, they'll otherwise butcher you in your home (For Khorne) or rape you repeatedly (For Slaanesh) while your family watch and cheer because they are part of the cult. The only other option is that you are part of it, and assuming the Arbites dont put the contents of a shotgun shell in your brain, you'll be ripped limb from limb by a Space Marine, blown to shreds by a bolter, have a chainsword forcibly inserted in your head, or die in a planet-destroying explosion. Failing that, you have successfully been assimilated into a Chaos horde and will either explode in a shower of blood as a Daemon explodes from your chest, be burnt as sacrifice, sent off as cannon fodder or be crushed by a Chaos Marine who doesn't like your nose piercing.

Daemon incursion? Congrats, you just exploded in a shower of blood as a Daemon emerges from your carcass. Or your friend's carcass, and then proceed to A) Butcher you B) Melt you into a puddle C) Transform you into a squibbling mound of flesh D) Infect you with 23 deadly and painful dieseases and then hug you as your flesh rots instantly E) Molest you in ways the human mind can't even comprehend, then wear your face as a condom for the next century. Grey Knights show up and purge the Daemons and you if you survive, then Exterminatus the planet.

Seeing a pattern yet?


Geller fields? 90% of the population can't even use an automatic pencil sharpener without filling out forms in quadruplicate and blessing it 3 times. "Oh, the Geller field you ask? The Warp is a dangerous place, it stops the currents ripping the ship apart and scattering the crew across time and space, sometimes in multiple pieces."
Problem solved

GW writers have inconsistency issues to the level that'd excite Tzeentch.

 Deadshot wrote:
How much, however, is known of the Exorcists' training? They are NOT, repeat N-O-T NOT a successor to the Grey Knights. Sorry to be rude, but I'm sick of seeing people say this.

Who better than an Exorcist to watch over one such as Karras? Even the mighty Grey Knights, from whose seed Rauth's chapter had been born, could hardly have been more suited to the task.

From the story 'Headhunted', concerning an Exorcist named Rauth. And even in the original Exorcists lore, the Grey Knights were the ones who watched over their posession/exorcism training process. Nothing has contradicted it since.

More importantly though, people need to remember that the Inquisition is not a monolithic entity. While plenty of Inquisitors of the Ordo Malleus want every person who ever witnessed a daemon to be purged, there are plenty of other Inquisitors who do not believe that to be the case. And sometimes those more radical inquisitors are right and nothing comes of it and a whole world's population are spared, and sometimes they're wrong and those who witnessed the event end up as cultists themselves. It's not a clear cut thing by any means, nor should it be. The Inquisitors who originally ordered the creation of the Exorcists most likely would've been shot as heretics by the Inquisitors in M41 who work with the Grey Knights on a regular basis.

Grey Knights were kept a secret, in that their true nature and reason for existing was secret. Other Space Marines would know about them, and their true nature in a vague sense, that they are a chapter devoted to fighting Daemons.

Space Marines would get mind wiped when they fought alongside them if the marines were deemed to have learned anything dangerous.

IE: Battle Brother Vern from the Ultrasmurfs and his squad witnessed the rite of banishment of the Daemon Mor'lakron, including the daemon's true name. That is information that cannot be allowed to get out, so the squad gets their memories wiped. But if the squad has simply fought alongside the Grey Knights cleansing a chaos temple of cultists, but didn't learn any truly sensitive information they'll not get wiped. Marines already know daemons exist and mere exposure to daemons isn't going to corrupt a space marine.

I think its more that the Grey Knights are operating more openly. its less that everybody has heard whispers of the Grey Knights existence, and more that they've become a little more public.


Average Joe Imperial isn't going to get killed because he's seen a grey knight. As far as he knows, its just a space marine. If he sees a grey knight fighting a daemon, which is going to happen 99% of the time, then he'll get killed(or mindwiped if he's lucky). because he saw the daemon, not that he saw the grey knight.

Its just that most of the time if you see a Grey Knight things have already gone way way off the deep end and there are likely daemons everywhere. So everything's gonna get cleansed.

Seeing a Grey Knight isn't a crime. Seeing what the Grey Knights fight against however is.

So unless you are lucky enough to see a Grey Knight fighting a threat that has yet to fully manifest its chaos roots, you're probably going to get killed or mindwiped. And if you do see a grey knight simply fighting something thats only minorly chaos corrupted, then you'll probably never realize the truth of what you saw. You just saw a space marine smiting down some heretics, praise the Emperor! The truth of what you saw will never be comprehended by your naive mind.

AndrewGPaul wrote:The Badab and third Armageddon wars didn't involve any actions against daemons, though. The Exorcists may be particularly well-suited amongst standard Marine Chapters to fight against daemons, but they're not specifically armed for such, nor are they dedicated to fighting daemons.

I'd say undergoing forced Daemonic Possession then exorcism pretty much counts as specifically arming the mind, if not the body for combat against Daemons. Furthermore, I say this level of training, not extended to any other SM Chapter, counts as evidence of a dedication to fighting Daemonic foes.

Deadshot wrote:How much, however, is known of the Exorcists' training? They are NOT, repeat N-O-T NOT a successor to the Grey Knights. Sorry to be rude, but I'm sick of seeing people say this. They are inspired by the idea of the Grey Knights, as a dedicated Daemon chapter, but they DONT have the GK's Emperor geneseed, because the Grey Knights would never give that up without a fight, and they don't operate like the GK in any capacity. They also aren't Daemonhosts, but ex-Daemonhosts, so to the rest of the Imperium they are just another batch of red space marines with an archaic name.

Don't worry, you're not being rude - just a different take on it . I'm going by Lexicanum, which gives Headhunted, as mentioned by jareddm, as stating the Exorcists were derived from the GK. However, I acknowledge that their founding was somewhat dubious. That said, the purpose of me bringing this up isn't to discuss their heritage - rather it's to point out that the concept of a specialised daemon hunting chapter is not considered a 'secret' in the same way the GK are considered a 'secret'. Hence, the GK being secret must be because of some reason other than merely being a specialist Daemon-Hunting Chapter. Obviously your average human can't tell the difference between red, silver or blue SM's, but the GK in particular are shrouded even from the SMs - only Chapter Masters know of their existence (and super-special Space Wolves ).

Deadshot wrote:And the common citizen is absolutely clueless about Chaos. Chaos is to the Imperium what Communism was to Cold War USA; a system that offered prosperity and happiness to the masses and threatened the control of the rich businessmen and politicians. Do you know how readily the Imperium would dive head-first into Chaos if they knew about it? Switching from an oppressive authoritarian regime that will either work you to death or use you as cannon fodder, to a religion and society that openly encourages you to have planet-wide orgies, eat all the food you want, makes being sick a gift from the gods (literally) and removes fear of death, rewards ambition, drive, vengeance and violence and living life as you please, and will grant you immortality if you kill enough of the oppressive masters?

The Imperium NEEDS Chaos to be secret or everyone will happily march down the serpent's throat. As to the examples you've given:

Chaotic conflicts? If the Chaos Space Marines or bloodthirsty Daemons dont brutally slaughter and torture you, the Inquisition will A) Purge you to prevent information spreading B) Exterminatus the planet because its too far gone to risk keeping around

Chaos Uprisings? Assuming the cultists don't disembowel you and sacrifice your manly bits to summon Daemons, they'll otherwise butcher you in your home (For Khorne) or rape you repeatedly (For Slaanesh) while your family watch and cheer because they are part of the cult. The only other option is that you are part of it, and assuming the Arbites dont put the contents of a shotgun shell in your brain, you'll be ripped limb from limb by a Space Marine, blown to shreds by a bolter, have a chainsword forcibly inserted in your head, or die in a planet-destroying explosion. Failing that, you have successfully been assimilated into a Chaos horde and will either explode in a shower of blood as a Daemon explodes from your chest, be burnt as sacrifice, sent off as cannon fodder or be crushed by a Chaos Marine who doesn't like your nose piercing.

Daemon incursion? Congrats, you just exploded in a shower of blood as a Daemon emerges from your carcass. Or your friend's carcass, and then proceed to A) Butcher you B) Melt you into a puddle C) Transform you into a squibbling mound of flesh D) Infect you with 23 deadly and painful dieseases and then hug you as your flesh rots instantly E) Molest you in ways the human mind can't even comprehend, then wear your face as a condom for the next century. Grey Knights show up and purge the Daemons and you if you survive, then Exterminatus the planet.

Seeing a pattern yet?


Geller fields? 90% of the population can't even use an automatic pencil sharpener without filling out forms in quadruplicate and blessing it 3 times. "Oh, the Geller field you ask? The Warp is a dangerous place, it stops the currents ripping the ship apart and scattering the crew across time and space, sometimes in multiple pieces."
Problem solved

I acknowledge all those points - however I have reservations. For example, if we take Wrath of Iron as an example, we see Iron Hands, alongside IG Regiments retake the Hive World of Shardenus after a daemonic incursion. In this book, which I have in front of me if you'd like quotes, you specifically see Imperial Guard and Loyal Citizenry fighting against Daemons and Cultists in open battle and ending in victory. So there is a clear example of citizens being aware of and witnessing Chaos. As to what happened to these citizens in the aftermath of the war - specifically 1/3 of the total population was purged, as an example to ward 'against complacency and falling to the temptations of Chaos.'

So there we see not only IG members fighting up close with Daemons, but also 2/3rds of a population which had actively encountered Chaos and Chaotic tendancies being permitted to live. Furthermore, this isn't being permitted to live by some backward IG General - rather they are permitted to live by no less than the Iron Hands - who themselves harbour a grudge against 'mortals' precisely because of their tendancy to fall to temptation.

jareddm wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
How much, however, is known of the Exorcists' training? They are NOT, repeat N-O-T NOT a successor to the Grey Knights. Sorry to be rude, but I'm sick of seeing people say this.

Who better than an Exorcist to watch over one such as Karras? Even the mighty Grey Knights, from whose seed Rauth's chapter had been born, could hardly have been more suited to the task.

From the story 'Headhunted', concerning an Exorcist named Rauth. And even in the original Exorcists lore, the Grey Knights were the ones who watched over their posession/exorcism training process. Nothing has contradicted it since.

More importantly though, people need to remember that the Inquisition is not a monolithic entity. While plenty of Inquisitors of the Ordo Malleus want every person who ever witnessed a daemon to be purged, there are plenty of other Inquisitors who do not believe that to be the case. And sometimes those more radical inquisitors are right and nothing comes of it and a whole world's population are spared, and sometimes they're wrong and those who witnessed the event end up as cultists themselves. It's not a clear cut thing by any means, nor should it be. The Inquisitors who originally ordered the creation of the Exorcists most likely would've been shot as heretics by the Inquisitors in M41 who work with the Grey Knights on a regular basis.

well.. in fairness all that line proves is the Exorcists BELIVE they are a grey knights sucessor. it's certainly possiable they are actually not a sucessor chapter. there have been a few cases IIRC of space marine chapters beliving they're a sucessor chapter of X, but their parent chapter being all "umm not that we know of" and imperial records suggesting otherwise

I'd say undergoing forced Daemonic Possession then exorcism pretty much counts as specifically arming the mind, if not the body for combat against Daemons. Furthermore, I say this level of training, not extended to any other SM Chapter, counts as evidence of a dedication to fighting Daemonic foes. 

Agreed. But this is also a massive secret. All most of the imperium knows (and even thats a relative term) from their codex appearance is that the exorcists have "deeply secret recruitment practices" and maintain three scout companies instead of one, because for some reason only one in three neophytes survives elevation to full battle brother....

locarno24 wrote:

I'd say undergoing forced Daemonic Possession then exorcism pretty much counts as specifically arming the mind, if not the body for combat against Daemons. Furthermore, I say this level of training, not extended to any other SM Chapter, counts as evidence of a dedication to fighting Daemonic foes. 

Agreed. But this is also a massive secret. All most of the imperium knows (and even thats a relative term) from their codex appearance is that the exorcists have "deeply secret recruitment practices" and maintain three scout companies instead of one, because for some reason only one in three neophytes survives elevation to full battle brother....

But this is also a massive secret as to why, and its not known they they get possessed by Daemons.

locarno24 wrote:
for some reason only one in three neophytes survives elevation to full battle brother....

Hmm... wouldn't this also put them at a distinct disadvantage in keeping their numbers up? Because obviously you can't use the geneseed of someone who dies due to daemonic possession, and a neophyte who dies before the geneseed organs are ready to harvest is also a total loss.

Spetulhu wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
for some reason only one in three neophytes survives elevation to full battle brother....

Hmm... wouldn't this also put them at a distinct disadvantage in keeping their numbers up? Because obviously you can't use the geneseed of someone who dies due to daemonic possession, and a neophyte who dies before the geneseed organs are ready to harvest is also a total loss.

There's nothing technically stopping any particular chapter from using the same methods the Adeptus Mechanicus use to create a whole chapter's worth of geneseed apart from lack of knowledge. It is possible that the Exorcists, being so close to the Inquisition and having access to the esoteric lore they clearly do, could well be force-growing cloned organs to replace such losses.
They don't seem to be mired in the same notions of martial glory and righteous honour that most chapters are…

Edit: or maybe they don't know? Would be a very effective means of keeping control of the experiment if the Inquisition was the direct supplier of geneseed rather than the Chapter being able to replace its own losses….

Well, batch-growing astartes organs in vatgrown humans is generally considered a no-no for astartes chapters.....but on the other hand, this is a chapter which voluntarily subjects potential recruits to mass daemonic possession , so if they were ever to come under close scrutiny by puritan elements of the ordo astartes, I suspect that'd be the least of their worries...

It is important to remember that seeing GK is was/still cause for purging. There is a codex entry that concerns a GK team that rather than staying on a civilian base and therefore being forced to kill them, they opt to return to Titanin cyrostasis.

Martel732 wrote:
They won too many tournaments in 5th to be a secret.

Draigo's Shiny Dozen....... *shudders*

It all depends on the writer. The 3rd edition Witchhunter codex implied that the imperium at large not only knew about the existence of the Grey Knights, but also knew (vaguely) of their function (in that they will rejoice at the coming of the knights, but not at the coming of the SoB and Witchhunters).

Other fluff implies that the average citizen think the Grey Knights are merely one of the thousands of space marine chapters and just have quirky weaponry, not realizing their duties as daemonhunters. They also didn't know that the Grey Knight's base was in Titan and that GKs are buried there as well as trained there.

The only consistent thing was that no one knew of each Grey Knights' individual names and no one knew that they were all comprised of psykers taken from the black ships. The mind-wipe/execution was always due to non-Inquisition/Grey Knight personel coming into contact with Daemons.