Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

In another thread, I was accused, based on my rules proposals, of treating space marines like cannon fodder. I promptly replied that, given the way the game actually works, "regular" space marines basically are cannon fodder.

This got me thinking:

What should a space marine actually look like if we actually wanted rules that matched the fluff? A few preliminary remarks:

I once read or heard that, somewhere in the fluff, Rowboat Girlyman claimed that a single space marine (presumably, a space marine legionary of his own day) is worth about 10 guardsmen.

So I am assuming, as a baseline, that 1 space marine = 10 guardsmen. I am further assuming that 1 guardsman has the statline that it currently has. Essentially, mostly 3s, leadership 7, a lasgun, you get the idea.

A space marine should be a 50 points model which, in terms of in-game functionality, should be 10 times better than an imperial guardsman.

So here's my proposal:

Troops choice: Tactical marines.

Unit composition: 1 tactical marine

Tactical marine: 50 points.
Unit Type: Infantry (Independent Character)

WS: 4
BS: 5
S: 4
T: 4
W: 3
I: 4
A: 3
LD: 10
SV: 3+

Wargear:

Boltgun
Bolt pistol
Close Combat Weapon
Frag grenades
Krak grenades
Space Marine Power Armor

Special Rules:

And They Shall Know No Fear: Any unit with at least one model with this special rule may choose to auto-pass any leadership test. Furthermore, should any unit with at least one model with this special rule happen to be falling back, that unit auto-regroups at the beginning of the player turn and may move, attack, etc. as normal. It does not make a regroup movement.

Space Marine Power Armor: A space marine always gets an armor save, even against AP 1, 2, 3 or strength D weapons. However, it may never, under any circumstances, re-roll its armor save against an AP 1, 2, 3 or strength D weapons, and must re-roll any successful saving throws against these weapons (the exception to these rules are found in the Salamanders Chapter Tactics listed below).

Fast Healing: At the end of each player turn, remove 1 wound.

Relentless

Emperor's Fury: A tactical marine may attack twice in the shooting phase. If he is making a shooting attack with a rapid fire weapon, he may rapid fire even if not within rapid fire range. Furthermore, a tactical marine may select a different target for each shooting attack, and then, in the assault phase, may select yet another target for assault. A space marine may both run in the shooting phase and declare an assault in the assault phase. Finally, every attack made by a space marine has the rending special rule.

Split-fire.

Battle Focus

Chapter Tactics

Options: May include up to nine additional space marines: 50 ppm.
If the squad numbers at least 5 marines, up to 1 tactical marine may select an item from either the special weapons or heavy weapons list. If the squad numbers 10 marines, up to 2 marines may select an item from either the special weapons or heavy weapons list.
If the squad numbers at least 5 models, you may upgrade one tactical marine to a veteran sergeant, who may take items from the melee and ranged weapons lists: 15 points.
A veteran sergeant may take melta bombs: 5 points.
The space marine veteran sergeant may take a teleporting homer: 5 points
The unit may select a drop pod, rhino or razorback as a dedicated transport.
The space marine veteran sergeant may get special ammunition for his boltgun for an additional 5 points.

If you upgrade a tactical marine to a veteran sergeant, he gains +1 attack and +1 WS and must replace his close combat weapon with a Space Marine Chain Sword: S: user, AP 4, rending.

Chapter tactics (these only apply to tactical marines and tactical marine veteran sergeants):

Ultramarines:

Combat doctrines: Three times per game, at the beginning of his turn, a player may declare: "CONSULT THE CODEX ASTARTES." For the remainder of the turn, each ultramarine model with the chapter tactics special rule may reroll all failed to hit and to wound rolls OR re-roll all failed saving throws.

White Scars:

Each white scars marine with the Chapter Tactics special rule which is not equipped with any weapon in the heavy weapons list may purchase a space marine bike for 20 ppm. If it does, it gains +1 to its armor save when it declares a jink and adds +1 to its strength when resolving a hammer of wrath hit. Also, each white scars model with the chapter tactics special rule gains Fight on the Move.

Imperial Fists:

When firing with a bolt weapon, an imperial fists model with the chapter tactics special rule does not roll to hit. Furthermore, when an imperial fists model with the chapter tactics special rule would otherwise receive a cover save because standing in area terrain (e.g., a forest, ruins, etc.), he instead gains +1 to his armor save and may re-roll failed armor save. Furthermore, while standing in area terrain, it gains +12 inches to the range of his boltgun. Each imperial fists models with the chapter tactics special rule gains tank hunter, monster hunter and siege masters. And finally, if a building is inhabited by at least one imperial fist, each side of that building shall receive +1 to its armor value.

Black Templar:

ABHOR THE WITCH: At the beginning of each psychic phase, you gain 1 warp charge for each model with the Chapter Tactics: Black Templar special rule. You may deny the witch on a 5+. You may deny the witch on a 4+ for any psychic ability which targets a unit which contains at least one black templar model. However, an army that contains black templar models may not also contain any models which are psykers.

Fleet

Each black templar may replace his close combat weapon with a Space Marine Chain Sword for free.

Each wounded black templar model gains +1 attack, +1 strength and may re-roll to hit and to wound when in close quarter combat.

Iron Hands:

Reanimation Protocols (4+).

Salamanders:

Any tactical marine which otherwise would be able to select from the heavy weapons list may also opt to upgrade to a heavy flamer.
Salamanders add 1 to their armor saves and may re-roll their armor saves against template weapons, even against strength D weapons. Furthermore, a model with the salamanders chapter tactics does not need to reroll its saving throw against D strength template weapons.
Salamanders may reroll to hit, to pen and to wound when attacking with a flamer or heavy flamer.
Every piece of war gear used by a salamander has the Master-crafted special rule.

Ravenguard:

They're Blind: The game automatically begins with night fighting, even if the mission special rules says that night fighting is not an option. Instead of gaining the stealth special rule, instead, an enemy model may not target any unit which contains at least one ravenguard model which is at least 12 iinches way, just so long as that unit would otherwise normally benefit from the night fighting special rule.

Invisible: Any ravenguard unit composed entirely of models with the ravenguard chapter tactics special rule which would otherwise receive benefits from standing in area terrain may not be targeted by an enemy model which is 12 inches or further away.

Any model with the ravenguard chapter tactics special rule upgrade to a jump pack for 10 ppm, may use his jump pack both in the movement and assault phases, and may reroll failed hammers of wrath in the assault phase. Any such model must exchange his boltgun and close combat weapon for a Space Marine Chain Sword for free. A veteran sergeant may then select any pistol from the ranged weapons list or any weapon from the melee weapons list.

Also, the decurion:

Tactical Squad:

Composition: 1 tactical squad numbering 10 marines.

Benefit: Objective secured AND you gain one use of the CONSULT THE CODEX special rule.

What do you guys think? About right?

UM Chapter Tactics have an oddity-it lets you reroll saves against D weapons... But you don't get saves to start.

Same with White Scars.

Overall... Feels oddly overpowering and at the same time not powerful enough.For reference, one Marine takes 3 unsaved wounds, 9 wounds before saves, 18 before wound rolls is it's a S4 weapon, and 27 if BS4.

So a single squad of actual Tacticals will have a good chance of wiping a marine a turn.

And, just for funsies... SKITARII VANGUARD!

30 shots. 20 hits. 10 wounds. One dead Marine, per turn, at 18". Assuming no Doctrinas.

But, the big thing here, is they seem boring and non-interactive. They're immune to AP, and just in general have a bunch of random rules that makes them very good, but they don't seem INTERESTING.

 Traditio wrote:
What do you guys think? About right?

Starts off reasonably with the stat line, descends into typing one handed by the time you reach the chapter tactics. Re-rollable 2++ saves, weapons that automatically hit, etc, you might as well just make the rule "the space marines always win because they are the best". And besides the power level issues there's a lot of awkward design included. Why have a special rule for "rapid fire at any range" when you can just make bolters assault 2? And giving the most common army in the game complete immunity to morale-related abilities means the entire leadership system might as well not exist anymore.

 JNAProductions wrote:
UM Chapter Tactics have an oddity-it lets you reroll saves against D weapons... But you don't get saves to start.

I revised this in the OP, as well as nerfed the AP 1, 2, 3, D thing. Tell me what you think!

Overall... Feels oddly overpowering and at the same time not powerful enough.

Just like actual space marines in the fluff.

They're supposed to be a small, elite shock force that will tear through light resistance without great risk, but nonetheless, will still succumb to heavy, concentrated fire power.

For reference, one Marine takes 3 unsaved wounds, 9 wounds before saves, 18 before wound rolls is it's a S4 weapon, and 27 if BS4.

So a single squad of actual Tacticals will have a good chance of wiping a marine a turn.

That's a full squad of 10 marines, which costs 140 points. You're comparing a 50 point model to 140 points worth of models. And even a full 10 man squad will only fire 20 shots.

But, the big thing here, is they seem boring and non-interactive. They're immune to AP, and just in general have a bunch of random rules that makes them very good, but they don't seem INTERESTING.

Do you think it's basically balanced, though?

Also, I am surprised that neither you nor peregrine have figured this out:

Can you imagine the possibilities for IG allies?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Peregrine 720944 wrote:Re-rollable 2++ saves

That's only if you have an imperial fist model standing in area terrain.

weapons that automatically hit

That's just the bolt weapons. I didn't even change the boltgun profile.

you might as well just make the rule "the space marines always win because they are the best

Would you rather 500 points of the tactical marines I've described or the best 500 point imperial guard army that you can think of?

Come to think of it:

Would you rather 10 base marines so described, or 100 guardsmen?

Why have a special rule for "rapid fire at any range" when you can just make bolters assault 2?

Plasma guns.

And giving the most common army in the game complete immunity to morale-related abilities means the entire leadership system might as well not exist anymore.

Tyrranids, for all intents and purposes, have army wide fearless. Spare me.

If we are bringing this in line with the fluff then why are saves taken against AP1, AP2 weapons? IIRC Lugft Huron, whilst in Terminator armour, had half his body blown off by a meltagun and only survived because of intense heretical surgery.

In fact, this entire post lacks perspective: yes a marine should be incredibly tough when compared to your average Guardsman but when compared to Tyranid monsters, Daemon Princes or even a lofty Chaos Lord the marine becomes to the Lord what he originally was to the Guardsman; an insect needing a good squish.

It also depends on which author, I imagine. That's why the fluff is a useless metric.

Martel732 wrote:
It also depends on which author, I imagine. That's why the fluff is a useless metric.

Indeed, In one of Gaunt's Ghost novel. Gaunt and around 10 guys kill a squad of Chaos Space marines including their lord without suffering a single casualty. They are amazed to have done it and consider themselves incredibly lucky, but they did it. In Honor of Cadia, a squad of Plague Marines from the Deathguard is killed by around 200 cadians with them suffering about a dozen casualty at most. 125 Scions killed an entire warband of Thousand Sons and their sorcerers when they attacked their Scholam. Most of them died, but they did win the fight and every single Chaos Marines were killed. Using lore to justify fluff is important, but there is a lot of nuance and contradiction in the fluff itself.

Such "super stats" can be interesting for kill team types of game or as a way to resurrect the defunct Inquisitor tabletop game. The fact that they are so powerful and have access to a lot of special rules makes small game more interesting.

Gaunt and CO had about 40 meatshields/distractions on their side, these guys didn't do much except allow the Ghosts with proper weapons to hit the Marines relatively unhindered.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Gaunt and CO had about 40 meatshields/distractions on their side, these guys didn't do much except allow the Ghosts with proper weapons to hit the Marines relatively unhindered.

True, they were the one's who killed the Chaos Lord... with crossbows. The Marines had the element of surprise though.

 mrhappyface wrote:
If we are bringing this in line with the fluff then why are saves taken against AP1, AP2 weapons? IIRC Lugft Huron, whilst in Terminator armour, had half his body blown off by a meltagun and only survived because of intense heretical surgery.

AP 1, 2 and 3 weapons are too accessible in game. One of the "iconic" parts of playing a space marine is that they are clad in nigh invincible power armor.

But then you actually play the game, and oh look, that power armor is practically useless much of the time.

If AP 1, 2 and 3 weapons were much more rare on the table, then I would be in favor of getting rid of the Space Marine Power Armor rule proposal.

In fact, this entire post lacks perspective: yes a marine should be incredibly tough when compared to your average Guardsman but when compared to Tyranid monsters, Daemon Princes or even a lofty Chaos Lord the marine becomes to the Lord what he originally was to the Guardsman; an insect needing a good squish.

I completely agree with what you are saying, and this shows just how messed up the crunch is relative to the fluff and how completely skewed the scale of this game is. A space marine should be a 50 point model. It should have rules that are 10 times better than an imperial guardsmen. Whether to use a 10 man imperial guard squad with las guns or a single space marine should be a real tactical decision.

And you're right. Tyrranid monsters, daemon princes and chaos lords should be even more powerful, more effective on the table top...and also much more points expensive and rare.

Even an "ordinary" traitor legionary should be much stronger than a loyalist space marine...and should come with a much heftier price tag.

I don't think it would be unreasonable to think that we should see something like the following. I mean, these are rough numbers, but I think that you'll be sympathetic to the overall point:

1. Guardsman: 5 points
2. Space Marine: 50 points
3. Renegade space marine: 100 points
4. Traitor legionary: 250 points
5. Generic chaos lord: 500 points

And something like a wraithknight...never in a 1850 game. That's all I'm saying.

There was a document called "Movie Marines" which converted the stats of Marines in the fluff to something tabletop compatible.

The end model results were like taking a Heralds of Ruin Marine force in 1750 point range. The army would also likely win through 6th Edition, too. Hard to say with 7th Edition inclusion of Super-Heavies and Str D, though. Rather scary, either way.

" One of the "iconic" parts of playing a space marine is that they are clad in nigh invincible power armor. "

They die all the time in the fluff, though.I know this from cursory third hand knowledge. Maybe a little slower, but FAR from invincible.

Ciaphas Cain generally provides my metric for how deadly most things are in the setting.

Three Khornate Berserkers are basically enough to chew through hundreds of Slaaneshi cultists with nothing but their chain axes and might as well be immune to lasguns (since the general principle of armor in vehicles is that if one round won't penetrate the armor, a dozen more won't have any more luck), but will go down to a meltagun. Ciaphas Cain himself is an incredibly skilled duelist which let him hold his own with the World Eaters Berserker (partly because he was taunting the Berserker and making him make mistakes in their duel through frustration and anger), but the Chaos Space Marine would have killed him if the fight went on much longer.

Generally as a rule, I'd put Astartes as above Halo Spartans and below Crysis' Nanosuit operatives (the nanosuit is capable of surviving direct impacts from 8 MJ railguns meant to punch through tanks without any injury to the user, the suit can remain intact from a direct impact from a 20 kiloton nuclear warhead, offers the user a reaction time 3200 times faster than is humanly possible, and the armor can exert enough force to let a human bench press an abrams tank, though due to leverage Prophet wouldn't be able to lift one over his CNT muscled head) on the totem pole of fictional super soldiers. Generally in the realm of being able to bench about ten to fifteen tons (they still wouldn't be able to lift a car because the human body is physically incapable of the leverage needed to lift a car over your head unless you're hulk sized), having a "cruise" speed of about 40-60 kph, and maybe 100 kph in a short sprint. Small arms fire is generally useless against a Space Marine without hitting something important and vital, but Meltaguns and Plasma guns will kill a Space Marine in one hit. A space marine is capable of aim dodging with ease (dodging gun fire by avoiding the aim) and if fired at from enough of a distance might be able to do some bullet timing (dodging an already fired projectile), and a bolter would be about as dangerous as a modern 25 or so mm autocannon with its standard rounds with far more versatility in the warhead choices. A normal person isn't going to survive anything but a glancing bolter round without splattering without some very tough armor. Scion Carapace armor is capable of resisting Bolter rounds, but the Scion's carapace armor is so tough that it can let a Scion survive atmospheric re-entry, in other words some no name scrub with Carapace Armor is at the very least, as well protected as any Spartan in Halo is with their ludicrously expensive (costing as much as one of the UNSC's frigates!) MJOLNIR armor. So power armor is probably going to be significantly tougher than that.

Now as for Autocannons. Based on scaling, what 40k labels autocannons are pretty clearly rather hilariously larger in caliber than anything I would have served alongside with in the Russian military. Especially the marks of autocannons mounted on the likes of the Hydra or the Predator. A predator's autocannon is compared to the Autocannons on a BMP Terminator, absolutely gigantic in comparison to the chassis of the tank. Those seem more like a world war two heavy tank caliber gun given fully automatic fire capabilities to be entirely honest.

The only way to make a generalist viable is to make the generalist good at everything. Not okay at everything. I think sterngard are a good example of what marines actually should be - they bring the right ammo to fight anything but they cost a little more than what they are fighting. Except they should be a little more survivable.

The statline I want for marines is
5++ save with 5+ FNP standard. And relentless.

Bolters should ether have shred or sterngard ammo needs to be standard.
Vet sarges should be comparable to exarchs in terms of stat improvements and should also have a special perk. Something I like for vet sargents would be something like Sicarius ability to give a single tactical squad tank hunter or infiltrate or counter attack at the start of the game.

They need to be better in close combat too. I say just give em a cc weapon as standard like a grey hunter.

Ofc I don't want this stuff for 14 ppm probably more like 23.

In my D10-based system, marines would have two wounds for sure. But many weapons inflict two wounds, just not small arms.

Martel732 wrote:
In my D10-based system, marines would have two wounds for sure. But many weapons inflict two wounds, just not small arms.

Why not post your entire d10 system here? Get some more eyes on it.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
In my D10-based system, marines would have two wounds for sure. But many weapons inflict two wounds, just not small arms.

Why not post your entire d10 system here? Get some more eyes on it.

It's not done yet :\ I'm trying to finish a PhD and I've only got certain modules of the game figured out yet. I'd definitely have move stats on models so we can make Eldar infantry faster on the table. I'd actually have to do research to make a decision on Astartes.

I really like the way the AP system ends up on my D10 system, but some are opposed to the AP system altogether.

You could always just use the old White Dwarf 'Movie Marines' list. It's woefully out of date, but you'll get the idea...

https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/at/2011/6/moviemarines-01194024.pdf

 Kriswall wrote:
You could always just use the old White Dwarf 'Movie Marines' list. It's woefully out of date, but you'll get the idea...

https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/at/2011/6/moviemarines-01194024.pdf

I love that. So much.

Martel732 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
In my D10-based system, marines would have two wounds for sure. But many weapons inflict two wounds, just not small arms.

Why not post your entire d10 system here? Get some more eyes on it.

It's not done yet :\ I'm trying to finish a PhD and I've only got certain modules of the game figured out yet. I'd definitely have move stats on models so we can make Eldar infantry faster on the table. I'd actually have to do research to make a decision on Astartes.

I really like the way the AP system ends up on my D10 system, but some are opposed to the AP system altogether.

Honestly AP is a bad system. As you can see - the two best armies take advantage of the crap AP system. Daemons avoid it by just having all invo saves - elder avoid it by hitting you with high volume attacks with 0 AP.

 Traditio wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
If we are bringing this in line with the fluff then why are saves taken against AP1, AP2 weapons? IIRC Lugft Huron, whilst in Terminator armour, had half his body blown off by a meltagun and only survived because of intense heretical surgery.

AP 1, 2 and 3 weapons are too accessible in game

And therefor we need to break the lore? OR maybe instead we need to make AP1 2 and 3 weapons less accessible?

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
In my D10-based system, marines would have two wounds for sure. But many weapons inflict two wounds, just not small arms.

Why not post your entire d10 system here? Get some more eyes on it.

It's not done yet :\ I'm trying to finish a PhD and I've only got certain modules of the game figured out yet. I'd definitely have move stats on models so we can make Eldar infantry faster on the table. I'd actually have to do research to make a decision on Astartes.

I really like the way the AP system ends up on my D10 system, but some are opposed to the AP system altogether.

Honestly AP is a bad system. As you can see - the two best armies take advantage of the crap AP system. Daemons avoid it by just having all invo saves - elder avoid it by hitting you with high volume attacks with 0 AP.

Yes, but my system has invuln save modifiers as well. So demons aren't off the hook. Psybolt ammo? Yeah.. -2 to demon invuln saves. Psycannon? -3 to the saves. And Eldar would be completely recosted and such. I don't let things slip through the cracks. The advantage of AP is that we don't have to compute save modifiers over and over.

I think the various pronouncements of a Space Marine being worth 10 to 100 guardsmen has less to do with their combat prowess than their equipment,training, and lower logistical strain on a campaign.

Still to better reflect their combat effectiveness compared to other similarly armed forces, I would give them 2 wounds, 2 attacks, Leadership 9, and Preferred Enemy. Now your average marine is much better than a Veteran Guardsmen, but not Movie Marine levels of silliness.

In that case you should give all ORks 2 wounds, too-- they are biologically just as tough as Marines, and in fact probably actually tougher-- and nobs 3 or 4 wounds. But at that point we're just scaling everything's strength up.

 Melissia wrote:
In that case you should give all ORks 2 wounds, too-- they are biologically just as tough as Marines, and in fact probably actually tougher-- and nobs 3 or 4 wounds. But at that point we're just scaling everything's strength up.

Indeed my system will for increased granularity.

 Traditio wrote:

1. Guardsman: 5 points
2. Space Marine: 50 points
3. Renegade space marine: 100 points
4. Traitor legionary: 250 points
5. Generic chaos lord: 500 points

And something like a wraithknight...never in a 1850 game. That's all I'm saying.

So, you could have a functional tourney list for 200 bucks and someone who wants to play non-mary sue stuff should pay 2k? Marines are allready stronger and cheaper to collect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
In that case you should give all ORks 2 wounds, too-- they are biologically just as tough as Marines, and in fact probably actually tougher-- and nobs 3 or 4 wounds. But at that point we're just scaling everything's strength up.

Another thing is that in fluff orks are super numerous, so they should be as tough as a marine but as cheap as a guardsman, right?

 koooaei wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

1. Guardsman: 5 points
2. Space Marine: 50 points
3. Renegade space marine: 100 points
4. Traitor legionary: 250 points
5. Generic chaos lord: 500 points

And something like a wraithknight...never in a 1850 game. That's all I'm saying.

So, you could have a functional tourney list for 200 bucks and someone who wants to play non-mary sue stuff should pay 2k? Marines are allready stronger and cheaper to collect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
In that case you should give all ORks 2 wounds, too-- they are biologically just as tough as Marines, and in fact probably actually tougher-- and nobs 3 or 4 wounds. But at that point we're just scaling everything's strength up.

Another thing is that in fluff orks are super numerous, so they should be as tough as a marine but as cheap as a guardsman, right?

Well they'd lack armor and stuff. However until we see what the real plans are, this is all speculation and people criticizing speculations.

After all, they just had ideas of what they'd like to add. Nothing has been set in stone it sounds like. I personally think armor modifiers are more time consuming (especially when potential of units rolling 2-3 dice for their save might happen), but I can't really make comment on it until we got something set in stone.