Ethereals, Firewarriors, and Devilfish Question

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**The Shrike**

So, for years now I've been running Firewarriors in Devilfish led by an Ethereal. And, inevitably I will disembark the firewarriors and Ethereal to shoot. Recently, it was pointed out to me that the firewarriors may not be able to benefit from say, Storm of Fire, if it was declared while both the Ethereal and the firewarriors were still embarked, even though the actual shooting would happen with them all disembarked.

The Ethereal's buff abilities are declared at the beginning of the movement phase, so let me walk you through it.

Beginning of movement, I declare Storm of Fire (or whatever buff ability available to an Ethereal)

I move the devilfish 6", I disembark up to 6". The Ethereal and all the firewarriors get out.

I shoot, all firewarriors within 12" benefit from the ability.

I have never tried to use the ability with the Ethereal still embarked; always knew that was BS. But I'm having trouble understanding the interpretation that he can't give an order to troops, everybody gets out, and he can't exercise his leadership right away. That seems counter-intuitive to me, I daresay absurd.

BUT, I am a stickler for the rules, as frustrating as GW may be sometimes. (I can't stand people who put money under Free Parking in Monopoly

)

Thanks for the help guys!

**Tactical_Spam**

Is there any wording on him using the powers while inside the Devilfish?

**The Shrike**

There's nothing in the codex or the most recent faction FAQs that addresses it no.

**Bobug**

They get to use storm of fire. He declares in the move phase and then in the shooting phase you check to see if they are within range when you are firing with them. In the same way, if you declare sense of stone and then move the ethereal away, the fire warriors would not have fnp when wounded later in the turn as he is not in range

**Ghaz**

Bobug wrote:
He declares in the move phase and then in the shooting phase you check to see if they are within range when you are firing with them.

That's not what the codex says.

**The Shrike**

Invocation of the Elements:

'At the start of each of the Ethereal's Movement phases, choose one of the four Elemental Powers to invoke. The Ethereal, and all friendly non-vehicle units with the Tau Empire faction within 12" benefit from the effects of the elemental power until the start of the Ethereal's next Movement phase. If the Ethereal is slain, the elemental power ends immediately.'

I think the fundamental question is, if an embarked unit is for all intensive purposes 'off the table,' and the Ethereal cannot invoke the elements if off the table, then I cannot benefit from the powers the turn I disembark.

What I struggle with given the parameters of that interpretation is, there are plenty of things decared at the beginning of the movement phase that are done while a model is off the table.

For example, a Flying Monstrous Creature can declare it is Swooping onto the board from reserves rather than Gliding.

**Ghaz**

From the Main Rulebook FAQ:

Q: I have a question regarding unit special rules that affect all or some units within a certain range of a model or unit. How do these interact with units inside Transports, and what happens if the unit with the rule is inside a Transport?

A: When a unit embarks on a vehicle it is taken off the battlefield and does not interact with anything on the battlefield. However, certain rules may create exceptions to this rule, with the most obvious examples being Fire Points, psychic powers and Transports. If a unit’s rules are meant to apply even when embarked on a Transport, they will specify this.

The underlined is why a Flying Monstrous Creature can declare its Flight Mode as it comes on the board from Reserve. The Ethereal's 'Invocation of the Elements' provide no such exception.

**The Shrike**

Ok well that's a bummer but thanks for the clarity!

**choclatechocobo**

Ghaz wrote:
From the Main Rulebook FAQ:

Q: I have a question regarding unit special rules that affect all or some units within a certain range of a model or unit. How do these interact with units inside Transports, and what happens if the unit with the rule is inside a Transport?

A: When a unit embarks on a vehicle it is taken off the battlefield and does not interact with anything on the battlefield. However, certain rules may create exceptions to this rule, with the most obvious examples being Fire Points, psychic powers and Transports. If a unit’s rules are meant to apply even when embarked on a Transport, they will specify this.

The underlined is why a Flying Monstrous Creature can declare its Flight Mode as it comes on the board from Reserve. The Ethereal's 'Invocation of the Elements' provide no such exception.

Unfortunately this doesn't actually clarify it at all, this just confirms that it doesn't interact with anything on the battlefield. It doesn't stop him from declaring it in the first place.

**Mr. Shine**

choclatechocobo wrote:
Unfortunately this doesn't actually clarify it at all, this just confirms that it doesn't interact with anything on the battlefield. It doesn't stop him from declaring it in the first place.

What part of, "If a unit’s rules are meant to apply even when embarked on a Transport, they will specify this" doesn't clarify this? Invocation of the Elements makes no mention whatsoever of use while embarked, so it doesn't apply.

**choclatechocobo**

Mr. Shine wrote:
choclatechocobo wrote:
Unfortunately this doesn't actually clarify it at all, this just confirms that it doesn't interact with anything on the battlefield. It doesn't stop him from declaring it in the first place.

What part of, "If a unit’s rules are meant to apply even when embarked on a Transport, they will specify this" doesn't clarify this? Invocation of the Elements makes no mention whatsoever of use while embarked, so it doesn't apply.

I'm not arguing that the rule applies to any models while embarked, I'm saying that he HAS to choose one of the powers at the start of the movement phase. Because he is embarked, the power does not currently affect anything but once he disembarks it will then be applicable again.

I think really the main point of contention is whether or not you consider the aura to be a continuous bubble that follows the Ethereal or if you consider it a one use at the start of the movement phase, with the Ethereal then able to scoot off elsewhere and leave units outside of the 12" effect still able to use the chosen rule. I personally would argue it works the first way, similar to many warlord traits such as Inspiring Presence where you always measure from the model with the rule to see if a unit gains the benefit. I suspect the FAQ (RAI) is there to prevent using transports as a way to increase the range of these effects by another few inches.

**pumaman1**

Per the Tau FAQ:
Q: An Ethereal with a homing beacon is embarked on a TY7
Devilfish. Does the homing beacon work?
A: No. The Ethereal must be on the battlefield, not
embarked on a Transport, for a unit to benefit from
their homing beacon.

So they make the distinction that if you are embarked, you do not count as on the battlefield. and so since the ethereal is not on the battlefield at the start of the movement phase, he would not get the chance to invoke an element.

I would say same, in the impossible situation, if a riptide were to try and Nova while embarked, it could not because it is not on the battlefield at the start of the movement phase.

They just aren't "there" to use their abilities.

**Ghaz**

choclatechocobo wrote:
Mr. Shine wrote:
choclatechocobo wrote:
Unfortunately this doesn't actually clarify it at all, this just confirms that it doesn't interact with anything on the battlefield. It doesn't stop him from declaring it in the first place.

What part of, "If a unit’s rules are meant to apply even when embarked on a Transport, they will specify this" doesn't clarify this? Invocation of the Elements makes no mention whatsoever of use while embarked, so it doesn't apply.

I'm not arguing that the rule applies to any models while embarked, I'm saying that he HAS to choose one of the powers at the start of the movement phase. Because he is embarked, the power does not currently affect anything but once he disembarks it will then be applicable again.

I think really the main point of contention is whether or not you consider the aura to be a continuous bubble that follows the Ethereal or if you consider it a one use at the start of the movement phase, with the Ethereal then able to scoot off elsewhere and leave units outside of the 12" effect still able to use the chosen rule. I personally would argue it works the first way, similar to many warlord traits such as Inspiring Presence where you always measure from the model with the rule to see if a unit gains the benefit. I suspect the FAQ (RAI) is there to prevent using transports as a way to increase the range of these effects by another few inches.

Its not a continuous bubble. It goes off once, and affects those within that range.

**doctortom**

choclatechocobo wrote:
Mr. Shine wrote:
choclatechocobo wrote:
Unfortunately this doesn't actually clarify it at all, this just confirms that it doesn't interact with anything on the battlefield. It doesn't stop him from declaring it in the first place.

What part of, "If a unit’s rules are meant to apply even when embarked on a Transport, they will specify this" doesn't clarify this? Invocation of the Elements makes no mention whatsoever of use while embarked, so it doesn't apply.

I'm not arguing that the rule applies to any models while embarked, I'm saying that he HAS to choose one of the powers at the start of the movement phase. Because he is embarked, the power does not currently affect anything but once he disembarks it will then be applicable again.

I think really the main point of contention is whether or not you consider the aura to be a continuous bubble that follows the Ethereal or if you consider it a one use at the start of the movement phase, with the Ethereal then able to scoot off elsewhere and leave units outside of the 12" effect still able to use the chosen rule. I personally would argue it works the first way, similar to many warlord traits such as Inspiring Presence where you always measure from the model with the rule to see if a unit gains the benefit. I suspect the FAQ (RAI) is there to prevent using transports as a way to increase the range of these effects by another few inches.

It''s irrelevant in this case as to whether you consider it a continuous bubble or a one use. The Ethereal is considered off the board, therefore he can't use the power in the first place. Just like he wouldn't be able to affect anything if he were in reserves or off the table for some other reason at the start of the movement phase.

**choclatechocobo**

doctortom wrote:

It''s irrelevant in this case as to whether you consider it a continuous bubble or a one use. The Ethereal is considered off the board, therefore he can't use the power in the first place. Just like he wouldn't be able to affect anything if he were in reserves or off the table for some other reason at the start of the movement phase.

I can see where it says in the FAQ that the special rules do not interact with anything on the battlefield, (which is why it would be relevant if it's continuous or not, but that's a discussion for another thread) where does it say do not resolve the mandatory initial choice of the special rule?

**doctortom**

Last sentence in that FAQ question. "If a unit's rules are meant to apply even when embarked on a Transport, they will specify this." You'd have to show where the Ethereal's buff abilities state they apply even when embarked on a transport in order to be able to use them. Without that, you don't get to use the rule.

**Vector Strike**

On the other hand, i'd be ok with working, as long as the Ethereal steps off the Devilfish.

The reason is this: without doing like this, there's absolutely no reason to bring an Ethereal with Firewarriors within a Devilfish and using one in a mobile strike group - it'd be only reasonable to bring one to a gunline army. And who loves to fight gunlines? I really don't - nor even play as one.

I'd throw a bone for this situations, at least to promote different gameplay.

**doctortom**

That's not RAW, but I could certainly see it being a house rule that most people wouldn't object to. It's just important to remember that since it isn't RAW, it's something to discuss with the opponent (or to check with the T.O. before a tournament to see how they handle it). I would think most would be reasonable.

**Mulletdude**

Doesn't the FAQ question just prevent the Ethereal's bubble from working while he's inside the transport, and not completely restrict it?

EX.1 The Ethereal is inside a Devilfish at the start of his turn. He declares he's using Storm of Fire (SoF). The Devilfish moves and disembarks fire warriors and the Ethereal stays embarked. The Fire warriors don't benefit from SoF because the Ethereal's ability doesn't say it works while embarked.

We can all agree that is the situation that the FAQ addresses. Now, the question of "is the ability a continuous one" is easy to address as well. The rule says it loses effect immediately if the Ethereal is slain. This shows it's a continuous effect because of this wording.

This would make it so that if the Ethereal disembarks from the transport with the unit the SoF bubble then applies.

EX.2 The Ethereal is inside a Devilfish at the start of his turn. He declares he's using Storm of Fire (SoF). The Devilfish moves and disembarks fire warriors and the Ethereal. The Fire warriors benefit from SoF because they are within 12" of the Ethereal.

**pumaman1**

Mulletdude wrote:
Doesn't the FAQ question just prevent the Ethereal's bubble from working while he's inside the transport, and not completely restrict it?

EX.1 The Ethereal is inside a Devilfish at the start of his turn. He declares he's using Storm of Fire (SoF). The Devilfish moves and disembarks fire warriors and the Ethereal stays embarked. The Fire warriors don't benefit from SoF because the Ethereal's ability doesn't say it works while embarked.

We can all agree that is the situation that the FAQ addresses. Now, the question of "is the ability a continuous one" is easy to address as well. The rule says it loses effect immediately if the Ethereal is slain. This shows it's a continuous effect because of this wording.

This would make it so that if the Ethereal disembarks from the transport with the unit the SoF bubble then applies.

EX.2 The Ethereal is inside a Devilfish at the start of his turn. He declares he's using Storm of Fire (SoF). The Devilfish moves and disembarks fire warriors and the Ethereal. The Fire warriors benefit from SoF because they are within 12" of the Ethereal.

It''s irrelevant in this case as to whether you consider it a continuous bubble or a one use. The Ethereal is considered off the board, therefore he can't use the power in the first place. Just like he wouldn't be able to affect anything if he were in reserves or off the table for some other reason at the start of the movement phase.

No, while embarked the ethereal is not on the battlefield. Its not a shooting power/psychic ability, so he doesn't have the exception at the start of his movement phase that he can even use the ability at all.
For friends and gameplay, your local players may not care at all, but RAW, and per FAQ guidelines with similar items, if you are not on the battlefield/ie embarked, your special aura (like culexus psyker null zone) doesn't apply unless specifically mentioned (IG orders)

**Lance845**

They never specifically state that models embarked in transports are considered off the board. You are using the wording in a single FAQ question to infer that.

Meanwhile look at the wording for rules like shooting out of firing ports. It's clear from multiple other rules that a unit embarked inside a transport is considered to be inside the transport. Their permissions change based on the transport (firing points or no, what psychic powers they may attempt to manifest, etc etc...) but they are actually inside it.

In the same way that a unit of Necron Warriors embarked upon a Ghost Ark are inside the Ghost Ark and can fire from any side of it the Ethereal and Firewarriors are inside the Devilfish. They have no permission to shoot, but the Ethereal does not need permission to shoot to select his power.

The power specifically has no effect while he is Embarked. Nobody will dispute that. But his unit is on the board and in play. They are not sitting in reserves. They have been deployed. Much like Synapse that bubble follows him and you recheck distances each phase to see if they are still in effect. When the Ethereal disembarks with the fire warriors they can shoot an extra time.

No FAQ says he cannot and the BRB is pretty clear that unis embarked in Transports are active on the board.

**doctortom**

Lance845 wrote:
They never specifically state that models embarked in transports are considered off the board. You are using the wording in a single FAQ question to infer that.

Meanwhile look at the wording for rules like shooting out of firing ports. It's clear from multiple other rules that a unit embarked inside a transport is considered to be inside the transport. Their permissions change based on the transport (firing points or no, what psychic powers they may attempt to manifest, etc etc...) but they are actually inside it.

In the same way that a unit of Necron Warriors embarked upon a Ghost Ark are inside the Ghost Ark and can fire from any side of it the Ethereal and Firewarriors are inside the Devilfish. They have no permission to shoot, but the Ethereal does not need permission to shoot to select his power.

The power specifically has no effect while he is Embarked. Nobody will dispute that. But his unit is on the board and in play. They are not sitting in reserves. They have been deployed. Much like Synapse that bubble follows him and you recheck distances each phase to see if they are still in effect. When the Ethereal disembarks with the fire warriors they can shoot an extra time.

No FAQ says he cannot and the BRB is pretty clear that unis embarked in Transports are active on the board.

"If a unit's rules are meant to apply even when embarked on a Transport they will specify this." The Ethereal is on the vehicle at the beginning of the movement phase. Not saying it applies while embarked, the special rule does not apply at the beginning of the movement phase. This means the Ethereal does not get to choose a buff then, since choosing which buff to apply is part of the special rull. That is RAW. RAI, people probably wouldn't have a problem with him picking a buff to apply when he's disembarked.

**pumaman1**

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Errata/Warhammer_40000/Warhammer_40000_Rules_EN.pdf Page 9

Q: I have a question regarding unit special rules that affect all or some units within a certain range of a model or unit. How do these interact with units inside Transports, and what happens if the unit with the rule is inside a Transport?
A: When a unit embarks on a vehicle it is taken off the
battlefield and does not interact with anything on the
battlefield. However, certain rules may create exceptions
to this rule, with the most obvious examples being Fire
Points, psychic powers and Transports. If a unit’s rules
are meant to apply even when embarked on a Transport,
they will specify this.

Q: Do non-psychic powers with an area of effect (‘aura’ powers like the Tau Ethereal’s Invocation of the Elements, or the effects of many Warlord Traits) extend from the hull of a Transport that the model with the power is embarked within?
A: No, non-psychic powers such as those described
cannot be used by models embarked upon a Transport
unless specifically noted otherwise.

Therefore an embarked ethereal is "off the battlefield" and cannot be "on the battlefield" at the start of the movement phase to select which element to invoke, as he doesn't have special permission to invoke while embarked on a vehicle.

**ArmchairArbiter**

pumaman1 wrote:
https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Errata/Warhammer_40000/Warhammer_40000_Rules_EN.pdf Page 9

Q: I have a question regarding unit special rules that affect all or some units within a certain range of a model or unit. How do these interact with units inside Transports, and what happens if the unit with the rule is inside a Transport?
A: When a unit embarks on a vehicle it is taken off the
battlefield and does not interact with anything on the
battlefield. However, certain rules may create exceptions
to this rule, with the most obvious examples being Fire
Points, psychic powers and Transports. If a unit’s rules
are meant to apply even when embarked on a Transport,
they will specify this.

Q: Do non-psychic powers with an area of effect (‘aura’ powers like the Tau Ethereal’s Invocation of the Elements, or the effects of many Warlord Traits) extend from the hull of a Transport that the model with the power is embarked within?
A: No, non-psychic powers such as those described
cannot be used by models embarked upon a Transport
unless specifically noted otherwise.

Therefore an embarked ethereal is "off the battlefield" and cannot be "on the battlefield" at the start of the movement phase to select which element to invoke, as he doesn't have special permission to invoke while embarked on a vehicle.

Quite frankly the way I take that first answer is to mean that he cannot have the effect while still IN the transport. The last part especially, if it supposed to work while INSIDE the transport... then it will be specified. In short his answer would apply only if you were trying to get the power/buff to work while hiding inside the tank the entire time.

So an Ethereal may choose a buff (it just doesn't work while in the tank or on surrounding units, as it has no effect) and is back on the board when he has disembarked. When back on the board, he's in play and can effect things on the board. Aka - I think it works even as RAW.

**doctortom**

ArmchairArbiter wrote:
pumaman1 wrote:
https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Errata/Warhammer_40000/Warhammer_40000_Rules_EN.pdf Page 9

Q: I have a question regarding unit special rules that affect all or some units within a certain range of a model or unit. How do these interact with units inside Transports, and what happens if the unit with the rule is inside a Transport?
A: When a unit embarks on a vehicle it is taken off the
battlefield and does not interact with anything on the
battlefield. However, certain rules may create exceptions
to this rule, with the most obvious examples being Fire
Points, psychic powers and Transports. If a unit’s rules
are meant to apply even when embarked on a Transport,
they will specify this.

Q: Do non-psychic powers with an area of effect (‘aura’ powers like the Tau Ethereal’s Invocation of the Elements, or the effects of many Warlord Traits) extend from the hull of a Transport that the model with the power is embarked within?
A: No, non-psychic powers such as those described
cannot be used by models embarked upon a Transport
unless specifically noted otherwise.

Therefore an embarked ethereal is "off the battlefield" and cannot be "on the battlefield" at the start of the movement phase to select which element to invoke, as he doesn't have special permission to invoke while embarked on a vehicle.

Quite frankly the way I take that first answer is to mean that he cannot have the effect while still IN the transport. The last part especially, if it supposed to work while INSIDE the transport... then it will be specified. In short his answer would apply only if you were trying to get the power/buff to work while hiding inside the tank the entire time.

So an Ethereal may choose a buff (it just doesn't work while in the tank or on surrounding units, as it has no effect) and is back on the board when he has disembarked. When back on the board, he's in play and can effect things on the board. Aka - I think it works even as RAW.

No. "non-psychic powers such as those described cannot be used by models embarked upon a Transport unless specifically noted otherwise." The Ethereal can not choose a buff if he can not use the power, which he can't while embarked. The answer does not say "you may use a power but it has not effect while embarked", which is what you are trying to do.