Switch Theme:

Question on new Horrors split rule  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




My confusion comes from this:

Lets say a unit of horrors (either pink or blue, doesn't matter) is in close combat. Now lets say they take some casualties throughout combat. Now comes the instability roll, and the rest of the unit is wiped out. Do I get the resulting horrors that spawn from the normal close combat casualties, as they aren't removed via instability? The FAQ ruling pretty much solidifies that only instability would stop splitting. If the unit isn't completely wiped out to instability I still get the casualties as new horrors. Looked around and can't seem to find anything definitive on this situation.

Thanks in advance ^^
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

Normally models that are split are placed at the end of the phase.
Any rule that removes that whole unit at once (including just being wiped from failing too many saves) still allows split, but it is resolved immediately and measured from the last model removed.
Since Instability is the exception to this, this is how I believe it goes:

10 Pinks get into CC. The lose 6 models to regular cc attacks (set 12 blues aside to be placed at the end of the phase).
Now the Pinks lose combat by 6. Roll Instability -6.
If you roll a 6 or higher, the remaining 4 Pinks are removed and because that was the entire unit, no Blues are created from those 4.

Now at the end of the phase, measure 6" from the Pink unit to place the 12 Blues you set aside earlier.....oh wait, no Pinks to measure to, Blues cannot be placed. Put those 12 Blues back in their case.

Now if at least 1 Pink survives the Instability check, every Pink that died in the prior phase gets to split, even the ones lost to Instability. You don't gets splits from Instability only when it removes the entire unit.

-

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/03/21 19:26:02


   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




ok breaking it down like you did makes sense to me, thanks ^^
   
Made in nz
Regular Dakkanaut




That looked pretty solid

The exception to this is if the squad all died in CC and didn't test instability. In which case you split them before the last model is removed

The instability makes it say no split, anything else it splits
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




 Galef wrote:
Normally models that are split are placed at the end of the phase.
Any rule that removes that whole unit at once (including just being wiped from failing too many saves) still allows split, but it is resolved immediately and measured from the last model removed.
Since Instability is the exception to this, this is how I believe it goes:

10 Pinks get into CC. The lose 6 models to regular cc attacks (set 12 blues aside to be placed at the end of the phase).
Now the Pinks lose combat by 6. Roll Instability -6.
If you roll a 6 or higher, the remaining 4 Pinks are removed and because that was the entire unit, no Blues are created from those 4.

Now at the end of the phase, measure 6" from the Pink unit to place the 12 Blues you set aside earlier.....oh wait, no Pinks to measure to, Blues cannot be placed. Put those 12 Blues back in their case.

Now if at least 1 Pink survives the Instability check, every Pink that died in the prior phase gets to split, even the ones lost to Instability. You don't gets splits from Instability only when it removes the entire unit.

-

Not sure you are quite right there. There is only one result from Daemonic Instability which causes the entire unit to be removed. Any other result causes wounds with no saves allowed (which are allowed to split)


Q: It seems that the only thing that stops them from Splitting is if they roll a Daemonic Instability test result that causes the entire unit to be taken off of the table. Is this correct?
A: Yes.
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

Pretty sure that's what Galef said.

In other words, no splits if the LAST horror is removed due to instability wound.

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Crafty Clanrat




Dallas

Little different, the only demonic instability that causes "entire unit taken off the table" is a double 6. Anything else does wounds with no saves allowed.

Specifically the split rule calls out "causes the entire unit to be removed at once"

For what it's worth it seems like double 6's stop splitting, but wounds from demonic instability still cause splits.

Otherwise I'd think it reverts to the FAQ "place the new unit immediately before removing the last model as a casualty"
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Not sure if you guys read the FAQ but I think it answers your question.

From the FAQ:
Q: If the entire unit of Pink Horrors is destroyed, do you place the Blue Horrors immediately? The Split special rule indicates that you only immediately place the Blue Horrors if a ‘rule’ causes the entire unit of Pink Horrors to be wiped out (which wounds like it is indicating something like Perils in the Warp, etc.) but what about simple attrition? If I shoot and destroy 10 of 10 Pink Horrors, how do I place a unit of 20 or 40 Blue Horrors within 6″ of the Pink Horrors if they are no longer there? Or, was the Split rule that talks about them being removed all at once due to a rule meant to indicate simply any time they are wiped out? It’s a bit ambiguous.
A: If a unit is wiped out, place the new unit immediately before removing the last model as a casualty
   
Made in us
Auspicious Daemonic Herald





Ferrus126 wrote:
Not sure if you guys read the FAQ but I think it answers your question.

From the FAQ:
Q: If the entire unit of Pink Horrors is destroyed, do you place the Blue Horrors immediately? The Split special rule indicates that you only immediately place the Blue Horrors if a ‘rule’ causes the entire unit of Pink Horrors to be wiped out (which wounds like it is indicating something like Perils in the Warp, etc.) but what about simple attrition? If I shoot and destroy 10 of 10 Pink Horrors, how do I place a unit of 20 or 40 Blue Horrors within 6″ of the Pink Horrors if they are no longer there? Or, was the Split rule that talks about them being removed all at once due to a rule meant to indicate simply any time they are wiped out? It’s a bit ambiguous.
A: If a unit is wiped out, place the new unit immediately before removing the last model as a casualty

It doesn't make any reference to the daemonic instability clause in the Split rule


Automatically Appended Next Post:
AwesomeSauceGaming wrote:
Little different, the only demonic instability that causes "entire unit taken off the table" is a double 6. Anything else does wounds with no saves allowed.

Specifically the split rule calls out "causes the entire unit to be removed at once"

For what it's worth it seems like double 6's stop splitting, but wounds from demonic instability still cause splits.

Otherwise I'd think it reverts to the FAQ "place the new unit immediately before removing the last model as a casualty"

Dealing enough wounds to remove a kill the unit also "causes the entire unit to be removed at once". Double 6 isn't the only way to remove the entire unit with instability.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/22 02:28:32


 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




 CrownAxe wrote:

Dealing enough wounds to remove a kill the unit also "causes the entire unit to be removed at once". Double 6 isn't the only way to remove the entire unit with instability.

Correct, but the FAQ says that we are looking at the Daemonic Instability test result that causes the entire unit to be removed from the table.

As far as I know Daemonic Instability has 3 potential results
- snake eyes - you get everything back
- box cars - you lose the entire unit
- anything else - loose wounds based on dice roll

We are told the only reason they don't split is if we roll the one result that removes the entire unit.
   
Made in us
Auspicious Daemonic Herald





JakeSiren wrote:
 CrownAxe wrote:

Dealing enough wounds to remove a kill the unit also "causes the entire unit to be removed at once". Double 6 isn't the only way to remove the entire unit with instability.

Correct, but the FAQ says that we are looking at the Daemonic Instability test result that causes the entire unit to be removed from the table.

As far as I know Daemonic Instability has 3 potential results
- snake eyes - you get everything back
- box cars - you lose the entire unit
- anything else - loose wounds based on dice roll

We are told the only reason they don't split is if we roll the one result that removes the entire unit.

No that's not what the FAQ says. It doesn't say "the Daemonic Instability result". The FAQ says "A Daemonic Instability result that causes the unit to be removed".

So If there were 3 Horrors left, and they fail Daemonic Instability by 4, then you have rolled a Daemonic Instability result that caused the unit to be removed.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




 CrownAxe wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:
 CrownAxe wrote:

Dealing enough wounds to remove a kill the unit also "causes the entire unit to be removed at once". Double 6 isn't the only way to remove the entire unit with instability.

Correct, but the FAQ says that we are looking at the Daemonic Instability test result that causes the entire unit to be removed from the table.

As far as I know Daemonic Instability has 3 potential results
- snake eyes - you get everything back
- box cars - you lose the entire unit
- anything else - loose wounds based on dice roll

We are told the only reason they don't split is if we roll the one result that removes the entire unit.

No that's not what the FAQ says. It doesn't say "the Daemonic Instability result". The FAQ says "A Daemonic Instability result that causes the unit to be removed".

So If there were 3 Horrors left, and they fail Daemonic Instability by 4, then you have rolled a Daemonic Instability result that caused the unit to be removed.

I disagree, in this case the Daemonic Instability result caused 4 wounds. The fact that these wounds resulted in the unit being destroyed is irrelevant to the rules preventing the horrors from splitting.

What you are trying to argue is a test result that indirectly destroys the unit - but that's not the result of the test. So it doesn't matter when it comes to the answer in the FAQ.
   
Made in us
Auspicious Daemonic Herald





JakeSiren wrote:
 CrownAxe wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:
 CrownAxe wrote:

Dealing enough wounds to remove a kill the unit also "causes the entire unit to be removed at once". Double 6 isn't the only way to remove the entire unit with instability.

Correct, but the FAQ says that we are looking at the Daemonic Instability test result that causes the entire unit to be removed from the table.

As far as I know Daemonic Instability has 3 potential results
- snake eyes - you get everything back
- box cars - you lose the entire unit
- anything else - loose wounds based on dice roll

We are told the only reason they don't split is if we roll the one result that removes the entire unit.

No that's not what the FAQ says. It doesn't say "the Daemonic Instability result". The FAQ says "A Daemonic Instability result that causes the unit to be removed".

So If there were 3 Horrors left, and they fail Daemonic Instability by 4, then you have rolled a Daemonic Instability result that caused the unit to be removed.

I disagree, in this case the Daemonic Instability result caused 4 wounds. The fact that these wounds resulted in the unit being destroyed is irrelevant to the rules preventing the horrors from splitting.

What you are trying to argue is a test result that indirectly destroys the unit - but that's not the result of the test. So it doesn't matter when it comes to the answer in the FAQ.

This doesn't indirectly destroy the unit. It literally destroyed the unit and the unit is destroyed because of the result of the test. The unit was destroyed as a result of the test cause 4 wounds to the pink horrors. You are the one adding arbitrary stipulations to " a Daemonic Instability result that causes the unit to be removed".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/22 06:04:47


 
   
Made in us
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought




@JakeSiren, by your logic, Celestine shouldn't be able to trigger her regeneration ability, because the rules say it happens when she would be 'removed as a casualty', so she should only get to come back if she's hit by an attack that specifically says it removes her as a casualty. (Like... I dunno, Hellfrost?)

If the Daemonic Instability result ends with there being no Pink Horrors left, then by definition that unit was removed as a result of the Daemonic Instability check. To argue otherwise is to argue that the words being used do not mean what the dictionary, or common sense, say that they mean.
And I'm at least 80% sure that Games Workshop at least has a fundamental grasp of the english language.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




 CrownAxe wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:
 CrownAxe wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:
 CrownAxe wrote:

Dealing enough wounds to remove a kill the unit also "causes the entire unit to be removed at once". Double 6 isn't the only way to remove the entire unit with instability.

Correct, but the FAQ says that we are looking at the Daemonic Instability test result that causes the entire unit to be removed from the table.

As far as I know Daemonic Instability has 3 potential results
- snake eyes - you get everything back
- box cars - you lose the entire unit
- anything else - loose wounds based on dice roll

We are told the only reason they don't split is if we roll the one result that removes the entire unit.

No that's not what the FAQ says. It doesn't say "the Daemonic Instability result". The FAQ says "A Daemonic Instability result that causes the unit to be removed".

So If there were 3 Horrors left, and they fail Daemonic Instability by 4, then you have rolled a Daemonic Instability result that caused the unit to be removed.

I disagree, in this case the Daemonic Instability result caused 4 wounds. The fact that these wounds resulted in the unit being destroyed is irrelevant to the rules preventing the horrors from splitting.

What you are trying to argue is a test result that indirectly destroys the unit - but that's not the result of the test. So it doesn't matter when it comes to the answer in the FAQ.

The doesn't indirectly destroy the unit. It literally destroyed the unit and tthe unit is destroyed because of the result of the test. The unit was destroyed as a result of the test cause 4 wounds to the pink horrors. You are the one adding arbitrary stipulations to " a Daemonic Instability result that causes the unit to be removed".

No, it's really quite simple.

I lose 5 horrors in combat and roll a 2 and 4. What is the test result of Daemonic Instability?
   
Made in us
Auspicious Daemonic Herald





JakeSiren wrote:

No, it's really quite simple.

I lose 5 horrors in combat and roll a 2 and 4. What is the test result of Daemonic Instability?

You suffer 4 wounds which causes the entire unit to be removed. Which meets the requirement of the FAQ

Q: It seems that the only thing that stops them from Splitting is if they roll a Daemonic Instability test result that causes the entire unit to be taken off of the table. Is this correct?
A: Yes.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




 CrownAxe wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:

No, it's really quite simple.

I lose 5 horrors in combat and roll a 2 and 4. What is the test result of Daemonic Instability?

You suffer 4 wounds which causes the entire unit to be removed. Which meets the requirement of the FAQ

Q: It seems that the only thing that stops them from Splitting is if they roll a Daemonic Instability test result that causes the entire unit to be taken off of the table. Is this correct?
A: Yes.


In my example I didn't specify how many models were remaining, yet we can determine still determine the test result of Daemonic Instability without this information. Why do you think this is?

At this point the discussion is either about the result of Daemonic Instability test (wounds/etc) or the outcome once we apply the result. I think the FAQ is clear we are talking about the former rather than the latter like you are suggesting.
   
Made in us
Auspicious Daemonic Herald





JakeSiren wrote:
 CrownAxe wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:

No, it's really quite simple.

I lose 5 horrors in combat and roll a 2 and 4. What is the test result of Daemonic Instability?

You suffer 4 wounds which causes the entire unit to be removed. Which meets the requirement of the FAQ

Q: It seems that the only thing that stops them from Splitting is if they roll a Daemonic Instability test result that causes the entire unit to be taken off of the table. Is this correct?
A: Yes.


In my example I didn't specify how many models were remaining, yet we can determine still determine the test result of Daemonic Instability without this information. Why do you think this is?

At this point the discussion is either about the result of Daemonic Instability test (wounds/etc) or the outcome once we apply the result. I think the FAQ is clear we are talking about the former rather than the latter like you are suggesting.

Since the outcome is the because of Demonic Instability, it is a result of daemonic instability. It doesn't matter if there is a degree of seperation. And the FAQ does not make a distinction about this like you so beleive.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




 CrownAxe wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:
 CrownAxe wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:

No, it's really quite simple.

I lose 5 horrors in combat and roll a 2 and 4. What is the test result of Daemonic Instability?

You suffer 4 wounds which causes the entire unit to be removed. Which meets the requirement of the FAQ

Q: It seems that the only thing that stops them from Splitting is if they roll a Daemonic Instability test result that causes the entire unit to be taken off of the table. Is this correct?
A: Yes.


In my example I didn't specify how many models were remaining, yet we can determine still determine the test result of Daemonic Instability without this information. Why do you think this is?

At this point the discussion is either about the result of Daemonic Instability test (wounds/etc) or the outcome once we apply the result. I think the FAQ is clear we are talking about the former rather than the latter like you are suggesting.

Since the outcome is the because of Demonic Instability, it is a result of daemonic instability. It doesn't matter if there is a degree of seperation. And the FAQ does not make a distinction about this like you so beleive.

The FAQ asks what the result is. The result is 4 wounds. Is that a unit removed from play result? No. Therefore it doesn't prevent split. It's not me making a distinction, it's following what the rules and FAQ say.

At this point I feel like we are going to argue in circles, so I will leave it open for other members to weigh in, but to me it is quite clear what the rules say.
   
Made in us
Auspicious Daemonic Herald





JakeSiren wrote:
 CrownAxe wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:
 CrownAxe wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:

No, it's really quite simple.

I lose 5 horrors in combat and roll a 2 and 4. What is the test result of Daemonic Instability?

You suffer 4 wounds which causes the entire unit to be removed. Which meets the requirement of the FAQ

Q: It seems that the only thing that stops them from Splitting is if they roll a Daemonic Instability test result that causes the entire unit to be taken off of the table. Is this correct?
A: Yes.


In my example I didn't specify how many models were remaining, yet we can determine still determine the test result of Daemonic Instability without this information. Why do you think this is?

At this point the discussion is either about the result of Daemonic Instability test (wounds/etc) or the outcome once we apply the result. I think the FAQ is clear we are talking about the former rather than the latter like you are suggesting.

Since the outcome is the because of Demonic Instability, it is a result of daemonic instability. It doesn't matter if there is a degree of seperation. And the FAQ does not make a distinction about this like you so beleive.

The FAQ asks what the result is. The result is 4 wounds. Is that a unit removed from play result? No. Therefore it doesn't prevent split. It's not me making a distinction, it's following what the rules and FAQ say.

At this point I feel like we are going to argue in circles, so I will leave it open for other members to weigh in, but to me it is quite clear what the rules say.

The FAQ doesn't ask what the result is, its asking if daemonic instability resulted in the horrors diying. Which it does when it deals wounds
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





JakeSiren wrote:

The FAQ asks what the result is. The result is 4 wounds. Is that a unit removed from play result?


It is if there are 4 or less models left in the unit so that it's wiped out by the wounds.
   
 
Forum Index » 40K You Make Da Call
Go to: