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Looking to add flyers to my collection but am not sure which to get. I know the tried and true option is Heldrakes, but besides everyone and their mother playing heldrakes, I'd rather bring something else to the table (that being said, if everything else kinda sucks ill do some conversion work to make the heldrake unique).

Options: Heldrakes, Helblades, Hell Talons, Blight Drones, Fire Raptors, Storm Eagles, and Valkyries!

I run CSMs and Renegades and Heretics, about half points dedicated to each. Between earthshakers and medusa siege guns, I may have the Heldrakes job covered already?

Anyone have any experience running any of the options?

I don't have practical experience with any of these but I do have a soft spot for the Hell Blade. It's highly mobile, cool and unusual, awesome-looking, capable of wacky maneuvers, and very cheap for its durability and performance; if your opponent doesn't have any Flyers your 115pt (say 'yes' to Helstorm autocannons) flying dagger can just wander about tossing masses of autocannon shots everywhere and will almost certainly take more than 115pts of stuff to kill.

It is also worth considering giving it Malestrom Raider if you don't want to risk it on a Deep Strike. A bunch of autocannons popping up behind you are always much scarier than a bunch of autocannons popping up in front of you.

As for the Hell Talon it feels like it's trying to pack too many jobs together into one body; the bombs don't pack enough of a punch (unless you want to dump 15pts/bomb converting over to a Haywire loadout), and the guns are sort of schizoid. If you're looking at a Hell Talon you're probably better off getting a Hell Blade and using the excess points on more ground units.

I'm on the fence about the Blight Drone; it may be running off an old Daemons book so its Daemonic Resilience doesn't do anything (FNP doesn't help vehicles), but it's running off an old Daemons book so it's a Jink-capable unit with Shrouded. It doesn't have the autocannon armament of the Hell Blade but the S8/AP3 large blast could do serious work in some matchups. It's rather more expensive than the Hell Blade, but it's still cheaper than the Hell Talon or the Heldrake, doesn't require any upgrades to work, and actually has reasonable armour.

So I'd say Hell Blade yes, Blight Drone maybe, Hell Talon probably not.

I've run Helblade and Blightdrones, and had pretty good experience with both.

Helblades aren't that comparable to drakes because they're basically dedicated interceptors (doubly so if you're using death from the skies). They're real good at chewing up other aircraft, and decent at strafing light vehicles on the ground. For their cost, they do their job well. Always take the autocannon upgrade.

Blightdrones are cool little attack helicopters, basically flying battlecannons. I like to hover them in some ruins for a 2+ cover save, just be careful to keep them away from anything that can assault because they're pretty flimsy if they get hit (2 hullpoints). I've only ever used them in singles because 150pts its pretty high for a squadron vehicle.

Heltalons seem overcosted to me, and the bomber rules are poorly thought out. If they could dump their payload in one go, then maybe theyd be useful. But they just don't put out enough damage to justify their cost.

Just out of curiosity, what about all the other flyers? Our drop pods, fire raptor/storm eagle or valkyries/vendettas?

 Roknar wrote:
Just out of curiosity, what about all the other flyers? Our drop pods, fire raptor/storm eagle or valkyries/vendettas?

I guess I can open it up to those as well. I don't have my books on me right now but isn't the fire raptor gunship a LOW? (along with being like 500pts?) If that's the case I wouldn't be interested in it.
Edit: This is wrong, I had it confused with the Thuderhawk Gunship

Don't remember the storm eagle.

I know Renegades can take either the Valktries of the Vendettas, so I suppose either of those are fair game as well


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, thanks everyone whose replied so far! And of course you would take the helstorm autocannon! It seems the Helblade is basically a hyper mobile, harder to hit, squad of autocannom havacs who hit harder/ more reliably and for less points!

Blight drone could add another ap3 template to the fray on top of being a pain to put down thanks to shouding

Dreadclaws are great assault transports. They're -not- drop pods, and don't really operate as such. Stick some melee chosen, berserkers, or terminators in one to drop down on turn one, flat out to a good location, jink any incoming fire, then barf out it's angry choppy contents on turn two. Then it can spend the rest of the game flying over units to burn them, or repositioning other assault units.
It's weirdly good at glancing out vehicles with it's flamer attack, as it deals d6 hits to the rear armour. If you can fly over a parking lot a few times, it can trash things. Also, it can get it's flame attacks into close combat. Just fly back and forth over a single enemy model to help out your lads.

Fireraptor is great. Flies around and shoots all the things. Take the autocannon batteries and flame missiles and just orbit the battlefield like agunship should. They're not a LOW, but they are a relic vehicle, which means you can only take 1 without also taking a sorcerer or warpsmith. Not really a big deal.

Storm eagle is good, but I think if youre looking to transport a big mob of guys, a spartan is a better option because it can get them there faster. Flying assault transports are a 3 turn minimum, which is just too slow for CSM want to get in the fray.

Renegades can get Valks, which are alright, but they don't really have anything good to put in them (and they can't take vendettas). They lack the special weapon heavy vet/scion squads like IG has.

Renegades can also get arvus landers, which are cheap as hell if you really want flying rhino's with no firepower. I guess you could make an airborne list using disciples or something, but again, they sort of go against what R&H is good at, which is lots of crappy dudes, or lots of great artillery.

Love the Fire raptor puts out a tremendous amount of fire power

As of now, I'm all but sold on the helblades. Thinking of running them in a pair. I usually bring an ADL with a Quad Gun, would these effectively replace the need for the quad gun?

The FIre Raptor seems like another good option, but it may be a tad bit pricy without a good way to scratch build/ kitbash it like I plan to do with the Helblades, ill have to add it to the backlog

Dreadclaws seem like fun too but idk about the 100 points. You think they're worth the points? (also, they're dedicated transports for CSM and Chosen, but say I wanted to put Kharn in one, how would that work? Never used a droppod before so I'm not entirely sure)

Blight Drone still seems cool, but I'm not sold on it. Storm Eagle is cool but I'm not looking to transport that many bodies
----
Arvus list sounds like it would be a ton of fun! Might be awful in practice but it would be cool to see.

Take 2 of The Purge Detachments with Renegades and Heretics
Each with a command squad, 3 Arvus's with autocannons and a unit of 5 Mauraders with double Melta and Carapace in each

CSM CAD
Chaos Lord, one cultist squad
CSM squad with a melta in a Dreadclaw
3 Helblades
1 FIre Raptor
..................................1840pts,
No way I'd run this but it would sure as hell be funny to see

The neat thing about Blight Drones is mobility. They're pretty maneuverable, and don't have a big footprint. That alone gives them advantages.

Fire Raptors are awesome. Buy the Autocannon battery at all costs.

I'm not terribly happy with the Heldrake with its poor firing arc, but it a hard counter to several lists which makes it worth the price of admission.

The dreadclaw is decent when it has ObSec. 100 points is still a lot and I 'd like it to be a bit cheaper but it's a flying ObSec unit with hover, so it can capture objectives pretty much anywhere you want.
Without ObSec it's still one the best, if not the best, assault vehicle we have. It's virtually guaranteed to get you where you want to be by turn 2, assuming it survives a turn of shooting, the odds of which aren't bad as long as you can jink.
Although in that case, it becomes pretty useless after delivering its load. I don't like to do this, but usually the alternative is something twice as expensive sooo..yea.
Beats the hell out of a land raider though, which is the only other assault vehicle available in a decurion.

You can have kharn or whoever you want join the unit in the claw. They can even take terminators, but in that case you would need a non dedicated claw.
The kharybdis claw is a mixed bag. Personally I want to like it, but I don't think it has enough to offer over a spartan. Even with AV not meaning a whole lot these days, being AV12 makes it quite a bit more vulnerable yet.
Then it's also possessed so it eats your guys and you can't add relics to it. Though perhaps that bothers me more than it should.
It's better than our base land raider but unlike the dread claw it's only available in a CAD, in the same way a spartan is. It also doesn't block LoS like a spartan.
That said, if it ever becomes ObSec, I'm getting one in a heartbeat. It can wreak havoc against msu or horde lists with its flamer nova and rocket pods.

Neither claw is a flyer though in the gunship sense. That role would go to the fire raptor or storm eagle. I don't see the storm eagle as a transport really.
Sure it has a capacity but it doesn't do anything that a spartan or kharybdis doesn't also do (better) in that regard.
The other two options are on the board from T1, while the eagle first needs to arrive from reserves and then you have to deepstrike it because arriving in hover mode is pointless for the embarked unit.
It's ok if you're bringing a landing pad either way I guess. It's a nice bonus to have the option of picking up a unit if need be, but that's all it is.
To me the raptor and eagle are pretty much the same thing with the raptor being more anti infantry and the eagle being more anti tank.
Both can engage both targets. The raptor is better at what it does than the eagle, but the eagle makes for some pretty scary AA and isn't a relic.
I like both.

@McGibs: A valk with lascannons and rocket pods is a vendetta in all but name lol. Since he is mixing csm and renegades though he can put csm into the valks. There is no restriction on armour so they can fit even obliterators.
Might make a nice transport for a cult of destruction. For non choppy units that want a transport they would make a better transport than a dreadclaw I think. Zoom in and grave chute out where you need to be.
The valk is no less durable than claw but more useful after unloading a unit and they can take legacies (and don't eat your dudes).
Not as useful as a Helblade mind you. Least not unless you have a unit that would benefit from the grav insertion and/or have legacy in mind which are kinda wasted on a helblade since those can't hover.

Love my fire raptor gamewise its amazing!

putting it together though, oh lawd above... you are letting yourself in for a big challenge and frustration believe me

Heldrakes will always scare me. They are so good even with their "limited" firing arcs. They simply delete troops. And a lot of other things in this game. They are amazing - of course this is my opinion, but they will always be useful.

@McGibs: A valk with lascannons and rocket pods is a vendetta in all but name lol. Since he is mixing csm and renegades though he can put csm into the valks. There is no restriction on armour so they can fit even obliterators.

What? Vendettas have three twinlinked lascannons. A valk with one lascannon and two missilepods is not the same thing at all.
Also, with the FAQ that prevents allies from starting the game in allied transports, CSM paratroopers aren't legal.

The Fire Raptor may be the best airborne option for chaos.

The cost is hard to deal with and you have to take a CAD to include one. These are the drawbacks to consider if want to use one with a Traitor Legions list.

But the ship deals a lot of damage with it's autocannon upgrades and it's hard to kill. Mine has survived every game I have played with it.

They have an interesting synergy with a Geomortis sorcerer. You want your Fire Raptor to be able to see anything and hit everything.

Use Earthly Anathema to give it's weapons Ignores Cover and line of site across the board. Use Worldwrithe to move intervening buildings in / out of the way as needed.

 McGibs wrote:

@McGibs: A valk with lascannons and rocket pods is a vendetta in all but name lol. Since he is mixing csm and renegades though he can put csm into the valks. There is no restriction on armour so they can fit even obliterators.

What? Vendettas have three twinlinked lascannons. A valk with one lascannon and two missilepods is not the same thing at all.
Also, with the FAQ that prevents allies from starting the game in allied transports, CSM paratroopers aren't legal.

Ah right that issue. I stopped following that thread after a while. Was there a concensus?
My impression was that it still works. I can't remember exactly why, but it was a pretty complex issue iirc.

I mean, it's pretty cut and dry. Battlebrothers cant start the game embarked in allied transports. It's the same thing that stops stupid combos like Skitarrii in drop pods.

Unless you want to land the valk so marines can climb onboard in the middle of the game, they're out of luck.

 Roknar wrote:

 McGibs wrote:

@McGibs: A valk with lascannons and rocket pods is a vendetta in all but name lol. Since he is mixing csm and renegades though he can put csm into the valks. There is no restriction on armour so they can fit even obliterators.

What? Vendettas have three twinlinked lascannons. A valk with one lascannon and two missilepods is not the same thing at all.
Also, with the FAQ that prevents allies from starting the game in allied transports, CSM paratroopers aren't legal.

Ah right that issue. I stopped following that thread after a while. Was there a concensus?
My impression was that it still works. I can't remember exactly why, but it was a pretty complex issue iirc.

The FAQ is pretty clear Battle Brothers can't get in alles transports. There is no interpretation about it

I'm trying to find the thread that the faq spawned. I'm pretty sure there was more to it than meets the eye. Something about the definition of deployment or something along that line.
Not much point in guessing until I find it though, so I'll take your word for it.

**edit**
found it: this
Still reading though it but the idea was that you can't embark during deployment. Deployment being at the start of the game, but you'd be deploying later which is fine.
I'll be back when I'm through so don't burn me just yet ^^.

**edit**
Ok nevermind. I agree, it doesn't work. The closest thing you could do is embark them T1 on a landing pad.

Imo the Dreadclaw is one of THE best units avaliable to Chaos (sharing the spot with Daemon weapon flying DPs, Rapier Quad Mortars, Typhons, Chaos Knights, Renegade Spawn and Renegade artillery).
A Dreadclaw will Deepstrike turn 1, then you can turbo boost it 18" to where you want it on the table, next turn move it 6" then disembark the unit inside and assault. I have never missed the unit I want to assault any time I have used it.
If my BA or Crons could have a 12/12/12 *assault* skimmer (therefore with a 4+ cover) that deepstrikes turn 1 and has the mobility to hit anywhere on the table with its unit turn 2, I would take it every.darn.time! As it is, I try to take it every time with Chaos now (unless going pure Renegades). You can change your whole battle plan after deployment of the opponent wrong footed you by bringing it down where its needed.
It's downside is that it will eat someone before the battle on a roll of a 1. If you have Kharn in it you need 9 Bezerkers with him to make sure the chance of it eating him is only 1 in 60. Abbadon and Sorcs in an army with a relic vehicle allow you to ignore this roll if they are deployed in it.

I honestly believe it is the most underrated unit in the entire game (there are units that take the crown of 'best' like Scatbikes, Wraithknights and Riptides but they arent exactly underrated). The only issue is that taking more than 1 seems to dilute their effectiveness.

As to other flyers - Helblades and Fireraptors are the go-to imo.

I agree that the Dreadclaw is a very awesome piece of kit, and I've never been disappointed with it (the units inside are another matter...). It gets a lot of guff because people think it's just a really expensive drop pod, which it isnt.

I usually bang Abby and Khorne or Nurgle termis in there. They really rip things up when they hit, and Abby can detach so you can charge 2 different units without penalty if needed. If supported by fast assault units hitting at the same time such as spawn, a knight, bikes etc, they can really mess up an opponents day.

List of stuff to buy/build:

2 Helblades (Now)
1 Fire Raptor (Later)
1-3 Dreadclaws? I feel like I could convert loyalist droppods easy enough. (1 now, 2 later)

If nothing else, I like the idea of Helblades, it helps they have interceptor and the likes, and with the hellfire guns they can put the hurt on just about anything

Fire Raptor wont be in the near future, but Ill get it when I can due to the $$$. Seems everyone here likes it, I'm surprised I haven't heard anything about it till now.

Dreadclaws don't seem terribly hard to make and I can see their potential after what everyones said. Either hoping on an objective or heat blasting vehicles that are smooshed together.

Question:
If I were to bring a list with everything above to a tournament, how do you think it would do? I have yet to see anyone bring any of the chaos fliers, then again, I think I'm the only one in my area who brings CSMs. Closest to it would be a daemons player who tends to bring the Cabal

Well if you do take a Fire Raptor it's a relic vehicle so you can stick a Sorc in the Dreadclaw and not worry about the Daemonic Possession roll :-).
Taking 2 Helblades and a Fire Raptor means almost 500pts are wrapped up in flyers so I would definitely take something to influence reserve rolls. But that will be ~500pts of extremely effective firepower. Also, before I moved countries and stopped playing I noticed a large decline in the use of flyers, judging by comments on here that seems like that isn't isolated so you should dominate the skys and be pretty safe in the knowledge that it'll be more difficult for your opponents to remove their threat if your meta is the same. Just make sure you have enough durability on the ground to hold objectives.

I was under the impression a sorcerer only worked on relic vehicles with daemonic possession, not non-relics, so it would stop a kharybdis eating someone but not a dreadclaw?

No, if a Sorc is in an army with a relic vehicle they are a technomancer (I think that's the right word, don't have my IA13 with me here). If a technomancer emabarks on a vehicle with daemonic possession they can choose to ignore the roll. There is no restriction on it having to be a relic vehicle as far as I am aware.