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So, you've probably heard this many times, and you've probably already guessed it, but I'm wondering how plausible it would be for Ghazkull to be the Beast? From what I know, Ghaz is currently time-jumping around the place after getting bored on Armageddon. I'm just wondering if a scenario like this is plausible;

Ghaz tours the galaxy, rounding up Orks, but can't make any headway due to the return of Guilliman, the Black Crusade, Leviathan and the rise of Necrons, the actions of the Ynari Eldar and other things. Realising he's not making progress, he time jumps back, accidentally, waaayyy back in the past. After so many years and brutal engagements, he's absolutely enormous and the Orks of the time automatically bow to the Prophet of the Waaagh! He takes his new followers and hits the Imperium at their lowest point in history, a kunnin'ly brutal, brutally kunnin' move only he among Orks would think of.

The thought that inspired me was that Ghaz is also known as "Da Beast of Armageddon." This is probably coincidence, as Orks as a whole are also referred to as, "The Beast" in the Imperium, but I don't see it too unlikely that when introducing himself as "The Beast of Arma" that this quickly translated into a shortened name, both as a nickname within Orkdom, and as a fear-infused term within the Imperium, who at this point have never seen anything like this before, gets shortened to, simply "The Beast."


Anyway, its a simple theory but not one I know much of. Let me know your thoughts!

I assume you haven't read 'The Beast Arises' series as that takes a rather sharp choppa to your theory.

Aside from that Ghazz hasn't got the stature to be the Beast. The Beast is described as being the size of a Gargant (although as our source in Imperial there is probably some hyperbole and self aggrandisement to that statement).

Spoilers for 'The Beast Arises' series of books below.

Kroem wrote:
I assume you haven't read 'The Beast Arises' series as that takes a rather sharp choppa to your theory.

Aside from that Ghazz hasn't got the stature to be the Beast. The Beast is described as being the size of a Gargant (although as our source in Imperial there is probably some hyperbole and self aggrandisement to that statement).

Spoilers for 'The Beast Arises' series of books below.

Spoiler:

The Beast isn't a single Ork, he is multiple powerful Ork warlords who fight with broadly the same goal.

I had not (nor intended to) read the series so thanks for the info! Certainly an interesting bit of information.

Re: sizing, part of my theory involved Ghazkull spending a lot of time fighting everyone there is to fight and growing extremely powerful, but with the power level of entities across the galaxy as of GS3 (Guilliman, for example, would wipe the floor with Ghaz) he knows he won't succeed. He's already Dreadnought sized from what I hear on this forum, take another decade of fighting the Octarius War, fighting the Black Crusade, the new Imperium, Ynari, and you could easily have him 3 to 4 times his current size, especially if he gets the Waaagh! he's going for as bonus energy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crazy out of the ball-park spin: Spoiler based on previous spoiler


Total lunacy and not true or accurate in any way, but fun hypothetical.

Ah true, he could certainly grow in size over time.
I hope they release a Ghaz model the size of a Primarch in 40k, mainly because I don't fancy trying to convert a cave troll.

It is true that the powerful warboss Urg proved no match for Horus, but Horus was a step above the other Primarks so who knows how Ghaz would fair against Roboute.
He is certainly very cunning and managed to beat a Morlock in combat in his most recent story development.

They are setting up a big fight between the Orks and the Tyranids in the Octavian system so lets hope the next book develops Ghaz's storyline a bit more!

Hey if blood thirsters model can grow in a plastic release so can GHAZ. Not sure if I want him to be magnuz size tough.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Hey if blood thirsters model can grow in a plastic release so can GHAZ. Not sure if I want him to be magnuz size tough.

Magnus sized? Hopefully not. Primarch/dreadnought sized? That's more like it.

 Deadshot wrote:
Crazy out of the ball-park spin: Spoiler based on previous spoiler

Spoiler:

Ghaz is all of said Warlords, he time jumped back in time from multiple different points so he could have many of himself leading all over the place, hence different boss but united goal

Total lunacy and not true or accurate in any way, but fun hypothetical.

I dunno man - I kind of like that flavor of lunacy. Ork flavored!

Manchu wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Crazy out of the ball-park spin: Spoiler based on previous spoiler

Spoiler:

Ghaz is all of said Warlords, he time jumped back in time from multiple different points so he could have many of himself leading all over the place, hence different boss but united goal

Total lunacy and not true or accurate in any way, but fun hypothetical.

I dunno man - I kind of like that flavor of lunacy. Ork flavored!

And there's already precedent for that for the Lost WAAAAGH! excerpt from the 4th ed codex, where a warboss' WAAAGH! warp-travelled to right before they left and he killed his doppleganger for a copy of his favourite shoota.

Exactly why orks iz da best.

 Deadshot wrote:
So, you've probably heard this many times, and you've probably already guessed it, but I'm wondering how plausible it would be for Ghazkull to be the Beast? From what I know, Ghaz is currently time-jumping around the place after getting bored on Armageddon. I'm just wondering if a scenario like this is plausible;

Time jumping? Where you read he's time jumping? As far as I know he's simply setting up new waaghs elsewhere from Armageddon as that one is now self-sustaining and Ghazkhull wants galaxy wide waaagh so he needs to do what he did in armageddon elsewhere.

Never heard he would be time jumping and not sure would that even be possible at least controlled fashion. Warp can do that but that's uncontrollable so you can't plan on it.

I remember the last time an Ork warboss traveled through time... He shot himself and whiped himself out of history all to get his own gun twice.

Kroem wrote:
Ah true, he could certainly grow in size over time.
I hope they release a Ghaz model the size of a Primarch in 40k, mainly because I don't fancy trying to convert a cave troll.

It is true that the powerful warboss Urg proved no match for Horus, but Horus was a step above the other Primarks so who knows how Ghaz would fair against Roboute.
He is certainly very cunning and managed to beat a Morlock in combat in his most recent story development.

They are setting up a big fight between the Orks and the Tyranids in the Octavian system so lets hope the next book develops Ghaz's storyline a bit more!

Horus was often quoted as being "the best of us" but there is no evidance he was actually the best primarch, and certainly there was no evidance that he was some super warrior massivly above his brothers.

Yea I didn't mean that he was a super Primarch merely that he was the best warrior amongst the Primarchs.

Even that is a bit stupid though, as it is is not as if they are having a fencing match! I feel that it would be easy enough for any one Primarch to get the better of another depending on circumstances, such as the element of surprise, conditions on the ground, luck etc. There are also many scales on which to weigh a Primarch abilities other than fighting.

I'm not sure if the same could be said for Orks though, the authority and legitimacy of a Warboss is intrinsically tied into their fighting abilities. It is very unclear to me how much value Orks place on things like strategic acumen or teef coffers of their leaders. So we can definitively say that Ghaz is a better fighter than all his subordinate Warbosses as if he wasn't they would have usurped him by now.

Given the huge size of the Ullanor orks we might infer that Urg would have to be a better fighter than Ghaz to retain his position as leader of that empire. However, Ghaz has much more experience fighting humans than Urg so that is at least in his favour.

 gnome_idea_what wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
Hey if blood thirsters model can grow in a plastic release so can GHAZ. Not sure if I want him to be magnuz size tough.

Magnus sized? Hopefully not. Primarch/dreadnought sized? That's more like it.

Isn't he already the size of a dreadnought?

he would be a fitting opponent to a primarch. And as he is favored by Gork (or was it Mork) he's sure to win.

(images of Gork appearing in real space and literally stepping on Magnus as he walks by without noticing...)

Hello again!


So I'm a fan of the Warhammer 40K Quotes Facebook page who have recently been doing a serialised summary of the War of the Beast, and their final post today has provided a little insight and evidence for this theory. If you wish to read the whole post go ahead, bear in mind EXTREME HEAVY SPOILERS EVERYWHERE. However, the part I want to point to is the final "post-credits" at the end where they translate the Beast's name.

https://m.facebook.com/Warhammer40kQuotes/photos/a.423880080974472.111184.417813741581106/1626390784056723/?type=3&source=48

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:
I remember the last time an Ork warboss traveled through time... He shot himself and whiped himself out of history all to get his own gun twice.

Hey I remember that story from the 4th ed codex too. Him and Tuska were pretty great stories, before the no-fun-allowed terrible 7th ed ork codex.

at the end where they translate the Beast's name

Wow I guess you were totally right then! I think time travel is a bit silly personally but that is a hard one to explain away...

Perhaps secial Ork souls can be reincarnated in a similar manner to the Human shamans who became the Emperor or maybe the unusual manner of the Beast's death meant that his soul was reborn in a new body millenia after he was killed.
He instictivly chose his name (I assume Orks choose their own names) and then, when he was shot in the head and fixed up by Grotsnik, he was able to tap into some of the memories of his previous life.
That would certainly explain why he suddenly became really ambitious and a strategic genius overnight.

BOOM solved the problem without time travel. I did have to use reincarnation and/ or mystical chosen ones which are also story tropes I hate though... damit.

Kroem wrote:

at the end where they translate the Beast's name

Wow I guess you were totally right then! I think time travel is a bit silly personally but that is a hard one to explain away...

Perhaps secial Ork souls can be reincarnated in a similar manner to the Human shamans who became the Emperor or maybe the unusual manner of the Beast's death meant that his soul was reborn in a new body millenia after he was killed.
He instictivly chose his name (I assume Orks choose their own names) and then, when he was shot in the head and fixed up by Grotsnik, he was able to tap into some of the memories of his previous life.
That would certainly explain why he suddenly became really ambitious and a strategic genius overnight.

BOOM solved the problem without time travel. I did have to use reincarnation and/ or mystical chosen ones which are also story tropes I hate though... damit.

This theory works, and there are a few other ways to explain it too. The first is that The Beast became so powerful that he became his own mini-oddboy variant. Ork oddboys instinctively have certain skills and talents, and these are passed down at random. The theory goes that The Beast added another type of oddboy, the "Beast" oddboy type, which grants certain memories, massive strength, control over the Waaaagh!, and the other powers that both of them share. However, this oddboy variant is locked inside the head of the carrier, and is only accessible if the inside of head gets rearranged, because it isn't an established brain type. The other is that when The Beast died he imprinted his memories into the ork psyche, and Ghazzy just happens to be more receptive than most (did grotsnik put an aerial in Ghazzy's braincase?).

 gnome_idea_what wrote:

Kroem wrote:

at the end where they translate the Beast's name

Wow I guess you were totally right then! I think time travel is a bit silly personally but that is a hard one to explain away...

Perhaps secial Ork souls can be reincarnated in a similar manner to the Human shamans who became the Emperor or maybe the unusual manner of the Beast's death meant that his soul was reborn in a new body millenia after he was killed.
He instictivly chose his name (I assume Orks choose their own names) and then, when he was shot in the head and fixed up by Grotsnik, he was able to tap into some of the memories of his previous life.
That would certainly explain why he suddenly became really ambitious and a strategic genius overnight.

BOOM solved the problem without time travel. I did have to use reincarnation and/ or mystical chosen ones which are also story tropes I hate though... damit.

This theory works, and there are a few other ways to explain it too. The first is that The Beast became so powerful that he became his own mini-oddboy variant. Ork oddboys instinctively have certain skills and talents, and these are passed down at random. The theory goes that The Beast added another type of oddboy, the "Beast" oddboy type, which grants certain memories, massive strength, control over the Waaaagh!, and the other powers that both of them share. However, this oddboy variant is locked inside the head of the carrier, and is only accessible if the inside of head gets rearranged, because it isn't an established brain type. The other is that when The Beast died he imprinted his memories into the ork psyche, and Ghazzy just happens to be more receptive than most (did grotsnik put an aerial in Ghazzy's braincase?).

True or gork and mork leant a hand too and granted gazzy a opertunity.
A chance to become a legend if he orky ernough. Kinda laying down a green gauntlet?

The Beast added another type of oddboy, the "Beast" oddboy type

Yea that is another cool idea, like he imprinted himself permanently on the Ork psyche.

Only thing is that Ghaz chose the exact same name as the Beast, whilst all mechboys aren't called Handy Andy all Pigdocs aren't called Rebecca Loos etc.

So this would be a new Oddboy trait.

On the other hand, It could be simple coincidence, Mag Uruk Thraka is an honorific more than a name.

Ghaz is known as the Beast of Armageddon and..

It cannot be uncommon for Orks to claim the title of 'Beast' so really it makes sense that both Orks have similar names

In fact I don't know why I didn't see that before, no need for time travel or any other bollocks. It is just a traditional honorific inherited by one powerful Warboss from another.

Kroem wrote:

The Beast added another type of oddboy, the "Beast" oddboy type

Yea that is another cool idea, like he imprinted himself permanently on the Ork psyche.

Only thing is that Ghaz chose the exact same name as the Beast, whilst all mechboys aren't called Handy Andy all Pigdocs aren't called Rebecca Loos etc.

So this would be a new Oddboy trait.

On the other hand, It could be simple coincidence, Mag Uruk Thraka is an honorific more than a name.

Ghaz is known as the Beast of Armageddon and..

Spoiler:

Armageddon is really the planet of Ullanor relocated by the AdMech

h
It cannot be uncommon for Orks to claim the title of 'Beast' so really it makes sense that both Orks have similar names

In fact I don't know why I didn't see that before, no need for time travel or any other bollocks. It is just a traditional honorific inherited by one powerful Warboss from another.

If Armageddon is also Ullanor it simply can't be a coincidence that 3 of the greatest Ork threats in Imperial history have occured there: First the Conquest of, where Horus became Warmaster, then War of the Beast, then Ghaz?

Personally I still feel time-travel is my preferred reasoning. After-all, what's more grimdark than the modern Imperium, through silencing and defeating the current Ork threat, in fact creating their own near-destruction in the past? Furthermore, the fact that its still Ullanor gives more credence to my own theory. After-all, if Ghaz was to travel back in time, (maybe unknowingly?), would it not be reasonable to destroy the one planet that has always stood in his way, before it ever comes to be Armageddon? I could draw parallels with the Terminator films here. The Imperium/John Connor beats Ghaz/Skynet, who send Arnold/himself back in time to defeat its great enemy, Connor/Armageddon, waaaayyy back in the past before its ever a threat. In a way, the Imperium/JC creating their own greatest threat.

I could even draw further parrallels with Terminator. For example, in Terminator, Arnold goes to before John Connor is ever born, just as how the original Ullanor Crusade was during the Great Crusade (and presumably the Orks were there before that started). Then in T2 another Terminator goes to kill a fledgling JC, just as how Ghaz could be looking to wipe out a vulnerable and fledgling post-HH Imperium.




Stepping away from this, apart from the Arch-Arsonist of Charadon, I don't see Orks taking honorifics. They just don't have the military structure that we do to take titles equivilent of Lord Commander of the XYZ, plus, their nature, as personal gloryhunters, living up to another Warboss's name is just silly. Afterall, the Beast may be the biggest Ork threat ever, but he's still a failure, and when an Ork fails in his Waaagh! he loses everything. Respect, loyalty, fear, and every time except Ghaz, his life. Ghaz is arguably more successful than the Beast in that regard, and so I doubt he would CONCIOUSLY pick that name as something to bring admiration and respect.

Personally I still feel time-travel is my preferred reasoning

Haha fair enough, the whole reason GW puts this type of thing in is so people can come up with all different theories and stuff :-)

Armageddon is also Ullanor it simply can't be a coincidence that 3 of the greatest Ork threats in Imperial history have occurred there

Yea it is definitely a planet with a destiny, perhaps that is why Gork and Mork guided Waaarrgh Ghazzgul there.

My thinking was that the Orks know that it is really Ullanor. So Ghazgull attacks the planet and kicks the humies about and some witty grot says...
"You is the new beast of Ullanor, boss"
which is using the same name as the Orks have always used for that planet (i.e. Mag Uruk Thraka in Orkish). That is translated by the Imperial scribes who aren't aware of the planets true origin as 'the Beast of Armageddon'.

I think the Orks see success differently to us, the Beast killed more humies and took more planets that any other Warboss. He also created the biggest fight that the Orks have ever had with the Imperium.
I imagine the fact that his conquest didn't last and he failed to meet his strategic objectives is not a big feature of the tales passed down by the runtherds as those are the boring bits!

I don't see Orks taking honorifics

There are plenty of examples in the backround, the Overfiend of Octarius, the Great Tyrant of Jagga, the Great Despot of Dregruk , the Arch-Maniac of Calverna etc.

They are made up by the Warboss himself of course, all as part of his swaggering self-aggrandisement, but they do have a habit of sticking.
There have been many Overfiends of Octarius and Arch-Arsonists of Charadon for example and ambitious Orks try to kill the current holders to take their titles and the prestige that comes with them.

That is why I think Ghaz might have taken the title of 'The Beast of Ullanor/Armageddon' when he assaulted that world (perhaps prematurely!)

Yeah, given that the title of Mag Uruk Thraka is an honorific, I think it's just coincidence, or history repeating.

Ghazghskull is not the Beast that threatened the Imperium in M32, by my eyes.

I just want to see Ghaz punch Guilliman or Angron right in the kisser as the good guys (the orks) win one for the Gipper.

 Frazzled wrote:
I just want to see Ghaz punch Guilliman or Angron right in the kisser as the good guys (the orks) win one for the Gipper.

#

Well, he may have a slight chance against Guilliman but Angron, whether his HH rules or his old Apocalypse Daemon rules, would wipe the floor with Ghazghkull with ease, and for good reason; he would easily destroy Ghazghkull.

Why? I do believe Ghaz has grown a fair bit since Armageddon. Plus he's favored by Gork (or was it Mork). Angron appears and its just as likely the Foot Of Mork steps on him.

 Frazzled wrote:
Why? I do believe Ghaz has grown a fair bit since Armageddon. Plus he's favored by Gork (or was it Mork). Angron appears and its just as likely the Foot Of Mork steps on him.

Such a thing wouldn't happen, a chance to fight the greatest* champion of the God of War is like winning the lottery for an Ork they won't waste it by trampling him. But Daemon Angron, as Ghaz would be fighting, took on a whole company of Grey Knight Terminators and almost won. Angron was on another level to everyone during the heresy and his abilities have only increased exponentially over the last 10K years. He's the size of a small titan, faster and brutal, and loves nothing more than killing. Ghaz is big but he's a Dreadnought taking on a Warhound, its not even a contest.


*Other constestants for the title include Doombreed, Ka'Bandha and An'ggrath the Unbound.

I'm a massive fan boy of Ghazzy. He ought be even bugger then a dread naught after his victory on Octaria, particularly after killing a moloc solo. He's described not only as bigger but now has an aura of crackling green energy surrounding him. But I can't agree that he is going to be near Angron''s martial prowess any time soon. Angron in rage mode is unparalleled. I can see Ghazzy headbutt in Guillimon and causing Roboute to sink into the ground past his knees as he's done to warbosses and Guillimon concluding that Ghazzy passed the Ogre limit. If Ghazzy couldn't gain the upper hand on Guillimon or if Guillimon used orbital bombardment to kill Ghazzy then Gork and Mork will whisk Ghazzy away deus ex machina style (which I admit is the one Mary sue mechanism that annoys me about Ghazzy).

 ProwlerPC wrote:
I'm a massive fan boy of Ghazzy. He ought be even bugger then a dread naught after his victory on Octaria, particularly after killing a moloc solo. He's described not only as bigger but now has an aura of crackling green energy surrounding him. But I can't agree that he is going to be near Angron''s martial prowess any time soon. Angron in rage mode is unparalleled. I can see Ghazzy headbutt in Guillimon and causing Roboute to sink into the ground past his knees as he's done to warbosses and Guillimon concluding that Ghazzy passed the Ogre limit. If Ghazzy couldn't gain the upper hand on Guillimon or if Guillimon used orbital bombardment to kill Ghazzy then Gork and Mork will whisk Ghazzy away deus ex machina style (which I admit is the one Mary sue mechanism that annoys me about Ghazzy).

Angron in rage mode is unparalleled.

Angron in rage mode

Just Angron will do

 Deadshot wrote:

 ProwlerPC wrote:
I'm a massive fan boy of Ghazzy. He ought be even bugger then a dread naught after his victory on Octaria, particularly after killing a moloc solo. He's described not only as bigger but now has an aura of crackling green energy surrounding him. But I can't agree that he is going to be near Angron''s martial prowess any time soon. Angron in rage mode is unparalleled. I can see Ghazzy headbutt in Guillimon and causing Roboute to sink into the ground past his knees as he's done to warbosses and Guillimon concluding that Ghazzy passed the Ogre limit. If Ghazzy couldn't gain the upper hand on Guillimon or if Guillimon used orbital bombardment to kill Ghazzy then Gork and Mork will whisk Ghazzy away deus ex machina style (which I admit is the one Mary sue mechanism that annoys me about Ghazzy).

Angron in rage mode is unparalleled.

Angron in rage mode

Just Angron will do

Angron has other modes?