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I play Dark Angels and starting to play ynari, so I only use summoning when theres nothing better to be done, but I kinda feels like painting some demons, already have 10 flesh hounds, so what else would be usefull?

Plague Drones are hard to kill and can jetpack move 2D6 in the ensuing assault phase.

Horrors of Tzeentch add dice to your Warp Charge pool.

Also since summoning Flying Monstrous Creatures were FAQ'd to allow them to enter play and be on the ground made them a lot better.


EDIT: That said I don't condone summoning Daemons with Dark Angels or Eldar.

Daemonettes. They can run after getting summoned. For d6 re-rollable +3". Ultimate bauble wrap. Especially neat vs mellee opponents cause they also get 2 i5 ws5 rending attacks when getting charged, so expect them taking a couple enemies down too.

I second the daemonettes - their rending and high number of attacks are great. I've had a few units of them go on to be MVPs in my IG list. I've never had any success with flesh hounds, though I might just have been unlucky.

I don't really like the daemonette models though, so I've got some mutated guardsman models to stand in (seems more fluffy that a psyker has used his powers to 'reanimate' his fallen comrades )

As said above, Daemonettes are a great choice. I would say that 10 Daemonettes are equal to 5 Fleshhounds, but the 'Nettes put out more damage and the Hounds are more reliable to get into combat due to their speed and durability.

Before you buy anymore models, I would clarify how your local group allows Summoning with DAs and Eldar.
I don't know the wording for DAs, but all Eldar Psykers have access to Sanctic on their datasheet.
While I personally believe this does not take away their access to Malefic (as the BRB plainly grants that to ALL non-GK, non-Nid Psykers and nothing has been stated that says they cannot), some players believe that the absence of Malefic on their datasheet implies they only have access to Sanctic.

RAW, yes to Malefic, RAI seems to say only Sanctic. YMMV

Flamers are pretty fantastic off of the basic summoning primaris. They're fast enough to get into action quickly, fairly durable with 2w each, and 3 ap4 flamers has some bite. The FnP thing is sort of lame, but occasionally giving something a 6+ FNP is inconsequential, and the warpflames sometimes does put out a few extra wounds.

 Galef wrote:
As said above, Daemonettes are a great choice. I would say that 10 Daemonettes are equal to 5 Fleshhounds, but the 'Nettes put out more damage and the Hounds are more reliable to get into combat due to their speed and durability.

Before you buy anymore models, I would clarify how your local group allows Summoning with DAs and Eldar.
I don't know the wording for DAs, but all Eldar Psykers have access to Sanctic on their datasheet.
While I personally believe this does not take away their access to Malefic (as the BRB plainly grants that to ALL non-GK, non-Nid Psykers and nothing has been stated that says they cannot), some players believe that the absence of Malefic on their datasheet implies they only have access to Sanctic.

RAW, yes to Malefic, RAI seems to say only Sanctic. YMMV

I know space marine librarians have access to demonology (that means they get both) though I think dark angels don't have this option.

 Xenomancers wrote:

I know space marine librarians have access to demonology (that means they get both) though I think dark angels don't have this option.

RAW the only way DAs would not have the option is if their rules actually say "cannot use Malefic". The BRB gives them the option for Malefic, so their rules have to state they cannot use it.
Absence of Malefic on their rules is not sufficient to deny them or be considered "otherwise stated"
That's the point I am trying to make. We all see the intention is to not give certain Psykers access, but the written rules have yet to deny the inherent permission given to all Psykers.

The example I like to use to compare this is Beasts and Fleet. The BRB grants Fleet to any model with the Beast type, but many Beast unit do not have Fleet listed in their special rules.
Does this absence of the rule mean that those particular units are meant to not have access to Fleet? Of course not.
Ergo, any non-GK, non-Nid psyker has access to Malefic, no matter what is listed on their datasheet. Because the BRB say so.

To date the only exceptions are Pink Horrors and Yncarne, because they had to have FAQs to say so.
However, some groups put the RAI in this case as priority, so getting a bunch of Daemons to summon with DAs and Eldar might be a waste of money in these groups

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The only thing (aside from faction specific powers) dark angels don't have is biomancy.

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I know space marine librarians have access to demonology (that means they get both) though I think dark angels don't have this option.

RAW the only way DAs would not have the option is if their rules actually say "cannot use Malefic". The BRB gives them the option for Malefic, so their rules have to state they cannot use it.
Absence of Malefic on their rules is not sufficient to deny them or be considered "otherwise stated"
That's the point I am trying to make. We all see the intention is to not give certain Psykers access, but the written rules have yet to deny the inherent permission given to all Psykers.

The example I like to use to compare this is Beasts and Fleet. The BRB grants Fleet to any model with the Beast type, but many Beast unit do not have Fleet listed in their special rules.
Does this absence of the rule mean that those particular units are meant to not have access to Fleet? Of course not.
Ergo, any non-GK, non-Nid psyker has access to Malefic, no matter what is listed on their datasheet. Because the BRB say so.

To date the only exceptions are Pink Horrors and Yncarne, because they had to have FAQs to say so.
However, some groups put the RAI in this case as priority, so getting a bunch of Daemons to summon with DAs and Eldar might be a waste of money in these groups

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Eldar are forbidden from using Maelific in their codex. I´m sure of it.

Play Daemons or Word Bearers!

With that said Deamonettes and Pink Horrors are fantastic objective grabbers - the daemonettes run real good and with split pinks can current an entire section of the board, get line breaker etc

 rawne2510 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I know space marine librarians have access to demonology (that means they get both) though I think dark angels don't have this option.

RAW the only way DAs would not have the option is if their rules actually say "cannot use Malefic". The BRB gives them the option for Malefic, so their rules have to state they cannot use it.
Absence of Malefic on their rules is not sufficient to deny them or be considered "otherwise stated"
That's the point I am trying to make. We all see the intention is to not give certain Psykers access, but the written rules have yet to deny the inherent permission given to all Psykers.

The example I like to use to compare this is Beasts and Fleet. The BRB grants Fleet to any model with the Beast type, but many Beast unit do not have Fleet listed in their special rules.
Does this absence of the rule mean that those particular units are meant to not have access to Fleet? Of course not.
Ergo, any non-GK, non-Nid psyker has access to Malefic, no matter what is listed on their datasheet. Because the BRB say so.

To date the only exceptions are Pink Horrors and Yncarne, because they had to have FAQs to say so.
However, some groups put the RAI in this case as priority, so getting a bunch of Daemons to summon with DAs and Eldar might be a waste of money in these groups

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Eldar are forbidden from using Maelific in their codex. I´m sure of it.

Nop Eldar have Divination, Telapathy, Malefic, Sanctic. They don't have Biomancy, Pyromancy or telekinesis.

Which models in an eldar list can use malefic then. The craftworld codex is newer than 7Ed BRB and the cards. farseers know divination, telepathy and sanctic only. This is enforced by the fact that within the current codex sanctic is an option and malefic isn´t.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The psychic cards that were released on the release of 7th Ed are out of date.

The fact of the matter (which is keep saying, ad naseum) is that the BRB gives ALL Psykers access to Malefic. PERIOD.
It does not matter that this is because when 7th came out, no Psyker had it, so including it in the rules was just a stop-gap. The rule has not been removed, so it remains and is applied to ALL future release until 8th ed or an Errata changes it. This is in the main rules, the psychic data cards are irrelevant.

The BRB only denies this from GK and Nid Psykers.
If anyone can show me where a Psyker entry says they CANNOT take Malefic, please do. I am only aware of the FAQ for Pink Horrors and Yncarne so far.
The absence of Malefic and presence of Santic is not enough to clearly state the denial of access. This is a problem with the BRB RAW.
We all see what GW intends, but the RAW give access.

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Its in the quick reference that comes with the 7th edition psychic cards.

Every codex since 7th released specify what each psyker can cast. the craftworld eldar codex mentions sanctic and not maelific. This is the reason that the errata on eldar codex saying that they couldn´t use maelific was removed. Codex over rules BRB

I agree that Fleshhounds, Daemonettes and Pink Horrors are the most suited subjects for summoning.

Occasionaly Screamers can be really helpfull for a last turn objective with their big turbo boost move.

Playing with Fateweaver you have guaranteed access to the Burning Chariot (spell #4 from the Change discipline). This too can be a great unit to summon. It has good mobility, great damage on the turn it is summoned and can threaten infantry and vehicles alike.

Using the Sacrifice power Im quite fond of the Herald of Nurgle with Doomsday Bell.

Cilithan

The doomsday bell is awesome. played a tournament recently where after winning combat by 1 model watching my opponent have -2 to the leadership was great.

 rawne2510 wrote:
Codex over rules BRB

Indeed the Codex does over rule the BRB. But please indulge me on where the Eldar Codex says Malefic is not allowed on their Psykers?
Listing "Daemonology (Sanctic)" does not inherently deny access to a discipline that the BRB grants to all Psykers.

That would be like arguing that Khymera (which are Beasts) cannot use Fleet (which is provide in the BRB for all Beasts) just because "Fleet' is not listed anywhere on their datasheet.
The BRB does NOT have a clause in the Daemonology section that states "if a Psyker is meant to only have access to Sanctic or Malefic, it will say so in parenthesis". So please stop acting like this clause exists.

I am not saying the you are wrong RAI (nor would I choose Malefic with Eldar, but that is my choice). But none of your arguments so far support RAW



Back on Topic, The Doomsday Bell is pretty good for summoning a Herald, especially if you also have a Psyker with Shriek.

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I am of the opinion that eldar and imperium forces do get access to malefic powers but they cannot use them to summon anything.
This is because they are come the apocalypse allies with chaos. All conjurations in malefic have a range of 12" or less and CTA allies cannot be deployed within 12" of each other. Deep striking counts as deployment so it is impossible for them to deploy. At the very least you have to have them scatter outside of 12" of any of your units or they mishap.

every codex since 7th Ed was released states which powers each model can use. the omission of Maelific in the farseers entry is statement enough that it can´t be used.

The statement that all models can use sanctic and maelific except those specifically mentioned in the BRB is only applied to codecies that are older than 7Th Ed release. everything newer is updated.

 rawne2510 wrote:
every codex since 7th Ed was released states which powers each model can use. the omission of Maelific in the farseers entry is statement enough that it can´t be used.

The statement that all models can use sanctic and maelific except those specifically mentioned in the BRB is only applied to codecies that are older than 7Th Ed release. everything newer is updated.

And this is where you and I will forever fundamentally disagree on this. The BRB makes ZERO mention of its rules only applying to older editions. If I was a brand new shiny player and just picked up the rules, they would read as if they apply as is at all times no matter how "newer" updates are worded

After 15 years of Orks, I'll be playing my first ever game of Nurgle in eight days. My plan is to summon Plague Drones, Heralds, and possibly turn my purchased herald into a Great Unclean One.

Worst case: more Plaguebearers.

Plague Drones are my go-to unit for Incursion, They may not do as much damage as Fiends, Blood Crushers or Screamers can, but they are twice as durable that those other choices and can threaten any unit. that makes them a great choice to just plop in front of the enemy, thrust-move into cover and dare them to shoot at the Drones.

I am pretty sure this has won games for me, since the opponent wasted shots at the Drones rather than at other choices

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 Galef wrote:
Plague Drones are my go-to unit for Incursion, They may not do as much damage as Fiends, Blood Crushers or Screamers can, but they are twice as durable that those other choices and can threaten any unit. that makes them a great choice to just plop in front of the enemy, thrust-move into cover and dare them to shoot at the Drones.

I am pretty sure this has won games for me, since the opponent wasted shots at the Drones rather than at other choices

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Wish there was an easier way to give them Invisibility, a Nurgle power would have been cool:

6+ to hit, 2+ cover save out in the open with Jink, T5, multi wound, FNP with attached Hearld, 5++ Inv that can be improved, poisoned weapons with one getting either AP2 or ID.

Just so we are clear, Plague Drones do not have Jink, so they can't get a 2+ cover out in the open. Bikes, Skimmers, Flyers and FMCs get Jink. Drones are Jet-pack Cavalry

 Galef wrote:
Just so we are clear, Plague Drones do not have Jink, so they can't get a 2+ cover out in the open. Bikes, Skimmers, Flyers and FMCs get Jink. Drones are Jet-pack Cavalry

Ah!! My opponent was wrong then! Thank you very much!

Silly question and I'm sure this is addressed somewhere but I'm flipping through four different sets of rules that are pretty new to me.

With summoning units with options to upgrade can I give the summoned units these upgrades? Like a Lord of Change with ML3 or Impossible Robes? Or a Daemon Prince with Daemonic flight...etc? Heralds? I suppose if I don't see the permission to summon with these things then I have my answer.

When you summon the only upgrades you can give, unless the power says otherwise, are character upgrades, banners, and instruments. Sacrifice gives you a 30 point allowance on upgrades, but incursion and possession do not give you any extra on top.

And concerning if Eldar and company that have sanctic listed and not the other, I believe they do not have access. The only reason Pink Horrors were listed in an FAQ is because Pink Horrors in the base Daemon book had it but they didn't want them to have it anymore. Otherwise I guess my Blue Horrors and Brimstones will be summoning pink horrors so I can Split, Split Again, Multiply, Repeat. And even if Eldar and company got ruled to be able to access those powers, since they are come the apocalypse you can't summon anyhow since you can't deploy within the 12 inches.

You can summon with come the apocalypse allies though - summoning is more akin to arriving from reserve than deploying.

Otherwise the psykana division (CTA allies) wouldn't ever be able to summon stuff, same with lib conclave etc. Not that they're the fluffiest ways to summon things of course!