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Is it just me or has chaos completely turned into a Saturday morning cartoon villain at this point? I read Wrath of Magnus hoping that it would be a return to form, and on the tabletop it absolutely was, but... there were two books in the set, and the first book, the bigger book, was a story about how the Thousand Sons invaded Fenris again and lost again. The writers really went through pains to not specify exactly how much both sides lost; I don't remember reading a single statistic or figure about exactly how many Rubricae and Sorcerers were lost vs. how many loyalist marines died. For all we know, this was a story where the Thousand Sons were decimated by the Space Wolves. The story itself read from the perspective of the Imperials, showing them as glorious heroes who all managed to take down scores Rubric Marines before they died. In fact, there was even a particular article where a Space Wolf captain fought his way all the way to a balcony of a silver tower, only to be met by a sorcerer that flung him off with a psychic blast. Guess what happened? He got caught in mid air by a Dark Angel and was let back down to continue fighting. Every single time the Thousand Sons made ANY progress in Wrath of Magnus, they got shut down almost immediately. And again and again the story repeated that narrative in different theaters. Thousand Sons show up, do something imaginative, lose anyway. Even the planet at large managed to defend itself fairly well despite a full-on daemonic incursion. I guess you could say that if one planet in the Galaxy could get away with this it's Fenris, but still. The point is, Chaos has become a joke. Everywhere they show up they just get mowed down, even when a daemon primarch is there. I was SO excited to see Magnus orchestrate the downfall of a planet, but he couldn't even do that.

And to the surprise of no one, it was all justified with a "Just as planned" right at the end, teleporting the Planet of Sorcerers and Magnus directly to Segmentum Solar. So I was able to let that go until Rise of the Primarch revealed that Magnus' real plan was to show up on Terra's moon to get slapped by Guilliman for 30 minutes, slapped some more by the Sisters of Silence, and then finally cast out into a dark corner of the webway by Guilliman... I mean, come on. If Guilliman had to go all day he could have, Sisters of Silence or no, let's be real here. There's no threat anymore. Chaos has become a joke.

Well, yeah. Chaos has become the whipping boys of the Imperium both in the lore and the tabletop.

Chaos has been a joke and the whipping boys of the Imperium since at least 4th edition.

If anything the last few years have actually INCREASED Chaos' street-cred, with the BL supplement retconning the first 12 crusades into "actually all 12 were successful!" and now Cadia being blown up.

BlaxicanX:

I think there was some bad fluff in 3rd/4th, cos if you look at the 2nd ed codex you will see the early black crusades were preliminary actions with specific objectives working up to something bigger.

Either that or the 12 failures is just a popular internet meme that never mated well with the actual fiction.

Nothing new. This has been the state of 40k for years.

Forces of Chaos are the villains of the story. How many orcs and clever plans Sauron had and were thwarted at the very last second by a bunch of heroes who unite the squabbling armies of their respective nations? This type of trope is one of the most iconic element of the fantasy genre and 40K is nothing else but fantasy.

What is supposed to be attracting in the forces of Chaos isn't their power, their might and their victory. In the realm of power fantasy, villains will always let you down. It's their purpose. What is supposed to be attractive is their weaknesses: their rage, their hubris, their vanity and, in the case of the Chaos Space Marines, their melancholy. Don't expect villains to be heroes, expect them to be villains. They will not look heroic, brave and victorious for they are none of those things. Their moment of glory is when at the height of their power, when they think they will finally win, they get beaten by an unforseen foe. Heroes are loved for their actions, villains are loved for their thoughts. The semi factual, action based style of writting of codexes isn't that good to make villains feel interesting, but in novels they frequently turn out to be much more interesting then heroes when they become the center of the action.

epronovost wrote:
Forces of Chaos are the villains of the story. How many orcs and clever plans Sauron had and were thwarted at the very last second by a bunch of heroes who unite the squabbling armies of their respective nations? This type of trope is one of the most iconic element of the fantasy genre and 40K is nothing else but fantasy.

What is supposed to be attracting in the forces of Chaos isn't their power, their might and their victory. In the realm of power fantasy, villains will always let you down. It's their purpose. What is supposed to be attractive is their weaknesses: their rage, their hubris, their vanity and, in the case of the Chaos Space Marines, their melancholy. Don't expect villains to be heroes, expect them to be villains. They will not look heroic, brave and victorious for they are none of those things. Their moment of glory is when at the height of their power, when they think they will finally win, they get beaten by an unforseen foe. Heroes are loved for their actions, villains are loved for their thoughts. The semi factual, action based style of writting of codexes isn't that good to make villains feel interesting, but in novels they frequently turn out to be much more interesting then heroes when they become the center of the action.

Got damn I want the gak you're smokin haha

epronovost wrote:
Forces of Chaos are the villains of the story. How many orcs and clever plans Sauron had and were thwarted at the very last second by a bunch of heroes who unite the squabbling armies of their respective nations? This type of trope is one of the most iconic element of the fantasy genre and 40K is nothing else but fantasy.

What is supposed to be attracting in the forces of Chaos isn't their power, their might and their victory. In the realm of power fantasy, villains will always let you down. It's their purpose. What is supposed to be attractive is their weaknesses: their rage, their hubris, their vanity and, in the case of the Chaos Space Marines, their melancholy. Don't expect villains to be heroes, expect them to be villains. They will not look heroic, brave and victorious for they are none of those things. Their moment of glory is when at the height of their power, when they think they will finally win, they get beaten by an unforseen foe. Heroes are loved for their actions, villains are loved for their thoughts. The semi factual, action based style of writting of codexes isn't that good to make villains feel interesting, but in novels they frequently turn out to be much more interesting then heroes when they become the center of the action.

So the whole "Time of Ending" thing is essentially retconned.

@Quaterdime

The Time of Ending starts with the destruction of Tyran by the then named Tyranids. The Time of Ending isn't the great victory of Chaos, that's Warhammer Fantasy story line with Archaon being the Lord of the End Times. In 40K, the End Time is the end of the line for everybody. The Imperium will fall, but so will the Chaos Gods, the Eldars, etc. It was clearly stated numerous time that if all the races of the galaxy don't unite, Tyranid will devour them all. Since they will never unite, they will all get eaten. The Archaon of 40K isn't Abbadon, it's the Swarmlord.

 Flanker wrote:
Well, yeah. Chaos has become the whipping boys of the Imperium both in the lore and the tabletop.

Lore wise I don't know, but on the tabletop it's the opposite. Chaos, CSM and Renegades are the most dominant tournament force in the meta today.

Every time Chaos gets into a fight with the Imperium they seem to suffer inordinate casualties...

Honestly, it feels as if the faction as a whole should have been wiped out by now. Imperial victory over Chaos achieved, the only thing left to deal with being the occasional cultist uprising, and of course xenos on all fronts.

I'd much prefer a 50/50 win/loss ratio between the Imperium and Chaos, it would be FAR more interesting, and much less predictable.

epronovost wrote:
Forces of Chaos are the villains of the story. How many orcs and clever plans Sauron had and were thwarted at the very last second by a bunch of heroes who unite the squabbling armies of their respective nations? This type of trope is one of the most iconic element of the fantasy genre and 40K is nothing else but fantasy.

The big difference between Sauron and Chaos in 40k is pretty damn huge.
The first major difference is that Sauron was actually a credible threat, on the verge of wiping out the free peoples of Middle Earth and despite all of the bravery and skill of Gondor, Rohan and others he would have succeeded had it not been for Frodo. Abbadon is supposed to fulfill the same role in 40k that Sauron fullfills in LotR. However, Abbadon is not a credible threat. He has never been able to seriously threaten the Imperium's existence yet, let alone being on the verge of wiping it out. Unlike Sauron, Abbadon has never really enjoyed any significant, lasting success in his wars against the Imperium. In LotR, Sauron orchestrated the Fall of Numenor, destroyed the kingdom of the high Elves, forced the dwarves of Moria (the most powerful dwarven realm) to lock themselves up in their mountains, conquered Minas Ithil, destroyed Osgiliath (the capital of Gondor), killed Elendil, killed Gil-Galad etc. etc. etc. In short, he accomplished many great feats that showcase his great power and strength and credibly establish him a huge threat to the 'good guys' of the setting. In 40k, what has Abbadon accomplished? Launched 12 wars against the Imperium all of which failed to leave any sort of lasting impact on it? Being sent back running with his tail between his legs into the Eye of Terror? That doesn't exactly establish him as an actual threat to the Imperium, and apart from those 12 failed crusades (and just recently finally taking Cadia after I don't know how many attempts) Abbadon really hasn't done anything of note. Taking Cadia was a good first step, but it is no more than that. Cadia is a single world in an empire of a million worlds. Far more is needed to actually make him look good.

The second difference is that Sauron was only defeated once (not including his final defeat of course, or before he became the Big Bad), and only through the utmost effort of the good guys. Their victory was in fact a Pyrrhic victory, since they failed to defeat Sauron completely and were so weakened they would never recover, leaving them unable to defeat Sauron the second time. Even in defeat, Sauron's amazing power and extremely high threat level is obvious. This is how the Imperium's victories against Chaos should have worked, too. Instead however Abbadon has been defeated more times than you can count on two hands, always coming back with yet another silly plot and angrily shouting "I'll get you next time!" when said plot inevitably gets foiled. In short, Abbadon behaves like the villain in a kid's cartoon show, having a new plot every episode, getting defeated and being back next episode with yet another plot without the status quo of the cartoon setting ever changing.

Well he killed Cadia so who knows what future fluff will hold.

At this point Chaos in 40k works pretty much the same way as Dark Elves used to in Fantasy. There are two possibilities:

1) Mass cloning: Abaddon/Malekith own impressive cloning factories able to mass produce troops on a constant basis. This is how the insane amounts of losses in each failed incursion can be assumed without breaking a sweat. Or...
2) Everything's a charade: The CSM/Dark Elves land, kill, burn and plunder for a while, patiently waiting for the good guys (Imperium/High Elves) to arrive. Once the good guys arrive, it's a curb-stom battle that leaves the forces of evil scattered and badly mauled. The good guys celebrate and everyone's happy. When the night falls, the CSM/Dark Elves (who had been playing dead all along) rise, wipe the dust off their armors and silently go back to the Eye of Terror/Naggaroth until duty calls again. Long ago Abaddon/Malekith struck a deal with the Imperium/Ulthuan: to fake such incursions and attacks so both populations have a great enemy to fight and care about (siege mentality is super useful towards the masses' control) and insane military budgets are not disputed by the public opinion. The charade must be kept at all costs, that's the important issue here.

Second possibility is so likely it hurts.

 Korinov wrote:
At this point Chaos in 40k works pretty much the same way as Dark Elves used to in Fantasy. There are two possibilities:

1) Mass cloning: Abaddon/Malekith own impressive cloning factories able to mass produce troops on a constant basis. This is how the insane amounts of losses in each failed incursion can be assumed without breaking a sweat. Or...
2) Everything's a charade: The CSM/Dark Elves land, kill, burn and plunder for a while, patiently waiting for the good guys (Imperium/High Elves) to arrive. Once the good guys arrive, it's a curb-stom battle that leaves the forces of evil scattered and badly mauled. The good guys celebrate and everyone's happy. When the night falls, the CSM/Dark Elves (who had been playing dead all along) rise, wipe the dust off their armors and silently go back to the Eye of Terror/Naggaroth until duty calls again. Long ago Abaddon/Malekith struck a deal with the Imperium/Ulthuan: to fake such incursions and attacks so both populations have a great enemy to fight and care about (siege mentality is super useful towards the masses' control) and insane military budgets are not disputed by the public opinion. The charade must be kept at all costs, that's the important issue here.

Second possibility is so likely it hurts.

your forgetting possiability 3: warp time shinnagens allows them to raise new troops VERY fast

 Cothonian wrote:
I'd much prefer a 50/50 win/loss ratio between the Imperium and Chaos, it would be FAR more interesting, and much less predictable.

The problem here is that IoM's forces are orders of magnitudes larger than the forces of Chaos. A 50/50 win/loss ratio would be unrealistic. There's a reason they can only really survive in pockets such as the Eye of Terror or the Maelstrom. It's because while Chaos itself is insidious and pervasive, its forces in the Materium are really the underdogs. Hounded dregs and traitors that can't stray far from their sanctuaries without being overwhelmed by superior numbers.

And this is how it should be. The IoM is the superpower of the 40k universe. Nobody should have a 50/50 ratio against it, because firstly that would make no sense in the lore, and secondly, because it's beset on all sides by enemies, a 50/50 ratio against it would eventually lead to it collapsing. It takes much longer to settle a planet than it does to pillage or destroy one, so if the IoM lost half its battles, then it would be on a constant decline. Hell, even a 25/75 combined ratio by its enemies would likely be enough to cause it to be at the level of stagnation and seige that it is now.

Chaos rarely ever fights Tyranids, Tau, Orks or Dark Eldar,. They have only a few run-ins with Necrons, and mainly fight the Eldar and IoM. The IoM fight almost everyone all the time. If any one of their enemies were an even match for them, the setting would be over.

Chaos Marines are also not what they used to be (at least lore-wise). While there's still a large number of Heresy-era veterans and recent traitors, a large number of them are recent recruits made via cloning or brainwashing and enslaving native populations in the Eye of Terror. I doubt they'd be a match for a fully trained Astartes, simply because Chaos lacks the same resources, and doesn't have the same amount of care towards their troops.

usmcmidn wrote:
Well he killed Cadia so who knows what future fluff will hold.

He killed Cadia after his superweapon fired and did nothing, after his forces invaded and failed and after lierally everything. he threw at them failed. He destroyed Cadia by launching a comet at it with the broken remnants of his up-til-then useless superweapon.

Ghorros wrote:

usmcmidn wrote:
Well he killed Cadia so who knows what future fluff will hold.

He killed Cadia after his superweapon fired and did nothing, after his forces invaded and failed and after lierally everything. he threw at them failed. He destroyed Cadia by launching a comet at it with the broken remnants of his up-til-then useless superweapon.

Alternative way to look at it: despite the Imperium barely pushing him back whenever it counted, Abaddon still succeeded, and the Imperium still failed. Cadia fell despite the defenders giving literally everything they had, even after dozens of heroic victories.

No other enemy would have pushed them that far, and no other enemy would have won against the Imperium pulling out deus ex machine after deus ex machina.

Ghorros wrote:

usmcmidn wrote:
Well he killed Cadia so who knows what future fluff will hold.

He killed Cadia after his superweapon fired and did nothing, after his forces invaded and failed and after lierally everything. he threw at them failed. He destroyed Cadia by launching a comet at it with the broken remnants of his up-til-then useless superweapon.

So he defeated the IoM with... Guile so what? Cadia was one of the best defended worlds in the IoM it wasn't gonna go down easy, chaos threw everything they had at the IoM and won in part because they where smart. Abbaddon had likely been working on the "black stone debris contingency" by time his forces landed on cadia. my guess is the entire chaos invasion was in part a giant distracxtion carnifex, if it won, great! if not, they'd keep the IoM from realziing what they where doing

Audustum wrote:

 Flanker wrote:
Well, yeah. Chaos has become the whipping boys of the Imperium both in the lore and the tabletop.

Lore wise I don't know, but on the tabletop it's the opposite. Chaos, CSM and Renegades are the most dominant tournament force in the meta today.

Renegades are great and all, but they're also FW rules, not GW. CSM are definitely not dominant and haven't been for a long time. They've been one of the weaker factions for years.

epronovost wrote:
@Quaterdime

The Time of Ending starts with the destruction of Tyran by the then named Tyranids. The Time of Ending isn't the great victory of Chaos, that's Warhammer Fantasy story line with Archaon being the Lord of the End Times. In 40K, the End Time is the end of the line for everybody. The Imperium will fall, but so will the Chaos Gods, the Eldars, etc. It was clearly stated numerous time that if all the races of the galaxy don't unite, Tyranid will devour them all. Since they will never unite, they will all get eaten. The Archaon of 40K isn't Abbadon, it's the Swarmlord.

So the end times will never come untill the ultramarines are no more?

Reavas wrote:


So the end times will never come untill the ultramarines are no more?

The End Times is an era that has already started. It will end when everybody is dead and Tyranids move on to the next galaxy or starve to death themselves. As the name might imply no one makes it out of this one.

BrianDavion wrote:
my guess is the entire chaos invasion was in part a giant distracxtion carnifex, if it won, great! if not, they'd keep the IoM from realziing what they where doing

the entire chaos invasion is ALWAYS a giant distraction carnifex with Abaddon.

I swear, he just deploys the troops that he can't be assured of their loyalty, lets the imperial meat grinder deal with them, then in the chaos he slinks off to grab whatever artefact / commit whatever atrocity his plan demand in relative quiet.

nareik wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
my guess is the entire chaos invasion was in part a giant distracxtion carnifex, if it won, great! if not, they'd keep the IoM from realziing what they where doing

the entire chaos invasion is ALWAYS a giant distraction carnifex with Abaddon.

I swear, he just deploys the troops that he can't be assured of their loyalty, lets the imperial meat grinder deal with them, then in the chaos he slinks off to grab whatever artefact / commit whatever atrocity his plan demand in relative quiet.

and, Abbaddon gets the stuff he wants and conveniantly likely kills troops whom are troublesome anyway I imagine more then a fewtimes Abbaddon's given "Bob the terriable" an up and coming chaos lord whose getting a bit too big for his britches a front and center spot in an invasion plan, simply so he emerges from the conflcit weaker. consider the crimson slaughter whom suffered IMMENSE casualties in one of the more recent campaigns.

The Chaos Gods don't want an all out victory. If Chaos wins then the human race will destroy itself. Since the Chaos Gods linked themselves with humanity long ago, if humanity becomes extinct so do the negative emmotions that sustain the Chaos gods and their daemons. This has been stated in the Heresy series and was the reason the Alpha Legion turned - to 'ensure' a Horus victory so that humanity would destroy itself and the rest of the Galaxy's species would be free of Chaos.
Not sure whether I like that explanation myself but it's written into the lore.

Poly Ranger wrote:
The Chaos Gods don't want an all out victory. If Chaos wins then the human race will destroy itself. Since the Chaos Gods linked themselves with humanity long ago, if humanity becomes extinct so do the negative emmotions that sustain the Chaos gods and their daemons. This has been stated in the Heresy series and was the reason the Alpha Legion turned - to 'ensure' a Horus victory so that humanity would destroy itself and the rest of the Galaxy's species would be free of Chaos.
Not sure whether I like that explanation myself but it's written into the lore.

The Cabal claimed that Horus would destroy humanity if he beat the Emperor which would destroy Chaos. However, there is no reason to think Abaddon would do the same nor is there much reason to believe the Cabal in the first place. The Cabal could have been entirely wrong (knowingly or unknowingly). The Cabal, being largely xenos, would have had a vested interest in seeing the Imperium as weak as possible as a result of the Horus Heresy so that they would have less capacity to continue the Great Crusade and eradicate xenos.

TL: DR don't always believe in-universe sources of information.

Fluffwise it's just bad writitng that causes Chaos to be so utterly incompetent.

If a small chaos force arrives outnumbered, gets beaten back but still achieving their main objective that can work. However they are always described as this massive giant war machine that gets defeated hero style by the good guys (not necesarily imperium) all the time. Once the good guys are heroes but all the time just makes your villain incompetent.

We know from the silmarion/backstory Sauron and Morgoth win more then they lose. Hell look at the story of Numenor. Sauron: "I can't win by force? Fine, I'll win by deception."

Also Tolkien makes Sauron a crediblke threat by downplaying him. From the start we knonw he is not that much stronger then the heroes. He however is getting stronger whereas his opponents are becoming weaker. The fights are more equal from thje start so the bad guys don't look like starscream (okay Saruman does) when they lose.

A well written story can end more as a draw rather then outright total victory for either side. There are way too few draws/ small skirmishes in the background.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Example of this done right by GW:

HH:Betrayer

This done wrong:

WF: Bane of malekith

CSM, chaos, and orks have always been the "bad guys" on the tabletop though as the bad guys 6th edition means you get a very weak neutering codex, and fluff wise you are on point it goes from following your own ambitions to tying damsels to railroad tracks for no real reason

So far I wouldn't discard Abbadon yet. It has been stated that all 12 crusades were preparation for the 13th. Now the 13th is there, yet his first trick, the blackstone fortress Abby did the 12th crusade for, doesn't work. For me that was the weakest part about gathering storm. However, he still got Cadia destroyed, and Biel-tan, and Commorragh and he united what seemed to be un-unitable. I hope GW allows him to get some not-pyrric victory for once.
Actually in that he's similar to Ghazgkull. Despite everything Armageddon hasn't fallen yet, which is a shame as it sets the Orks in the same weak light as Chaos.

BrianDavion wrote:

Ghorros wrote:

usmcmidn wrote:
Well he killed Cadia so who knows what future fluff will hold.

He killed Cadia after his superweapon fired and did nothing, after his forces invaded and failed and after lierally everything. he threw at them failed. He destroyed Cadia by launching a comet at it with the broken remnants of his up-til-then useless superweapon.

So he defeated the IoM with... Guile so what? Cadia was one of the best defended worlds in the IoM it wasn't gonna go down easy, chaos threw everything they had at the IoM and won in part because they where smart. Abbaddon had likely been working on the "black stone debris contingency" by time his forces landed on cadia. my guess is the entire chaos invasion was in part a giant distracxtion carnifex, if it won, great! if not, they'd keep the IoM from realziing what they where doing

Winning with guile is great, but that 'guile' was used after his forces were utterly wrecked. His 'guile' involved getting in to a war of attrition with the galaxy's greatest power where attrition is involved.

And again, if that were his end game, then well done Abaddon. But it isn't - Earth is And every force he lost on Cadia is a force that won't be available on Earth when he will be facing Guilliman. He lost a huge chunk of his forces over a war that should have been 'Drop a comet on it' from the very beginning.

Instead, he got in to a stupid war over a planet he couldn't have cared less about to make a point that nobody but him cared about and which ultimately wasn't even made.