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Can a unit of raptors or warp talons from a raptor talon formation charge first turn if they arrive first turn in a kharybdis?


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nvm, it specifically says a unit arriving from drop pod assault may not charge turn one.

In addition your raptor talon units need to have jump packs, making them jump infantry. Jump infantry are explicitly forbidden of boarding transports unless specifically allowed in transport options. So they cannot even board the kharybdis, and cannot charge from there as you also noticed yourself.

I'm only writing this because it seems weirdly common understanding that jump infantry may board transports.

If you're looking for first turn charges, you need them to be on the table (unless you have some sort of mean to bypass first turn reserves and assult restrictions). However, Chaos has a formation of 3-5 raptors or Warp talons plus a Chaos lord (with a free jetpack Wooo!) can arrive from deepstrike and assault the same turn (without the charge attack benefit).

A good thing to remember, is get some sort of vanguard or scouting force close to the enemy turn 1 (infiltrate or scout move or something) give them a banner of Chaos which is the same mark on your Warptalons or Raptors and they won't scatter on that deep strike. Money shot!

 Tsol wrote:
A good thing to remember, is get some sort of vanguard or scouting force close to the enemy turn 1 (infiltrate or scout move or something) give them a banner of Chaos which is the same mark on your Warptalons or Raptors and they won't scatter on that deep strike. Money shot!

Hey can you tell where the rule for this is? I didn't know this is possible, and I would very much like to use it!

It's in Legions. Black Legion can roll for deepstrike reserves starting turn 1 if you run the black legion decurion and your warlord+his unit can arrive turn 1 automatically. Though, there's no way to drop raptors w/o scatter. At least none that i'm aware of. So, it's all pretty risky.

 Tsol wrote:
If you're looking for first turn charges, you need them to be on the table (unless you have some sort of mean to bypass first turn reserves and assult restrictions). However, Chaos has a formation of 3-5 raptors or Warp talons plus a Chaos lord (with a free jetpack Wooo!) can arrive from deepstrike and assault the same turn (without the charge attack benefit).

A good thing to remember, is get some sort of vanguard or scouting force close to the enemy turn 1 (infiltrate or scout move or something) give them a banner of Chaos which is the same mark on your Warptalons or Raptors and they won't scatter on that deep strike. Money shot!

I thought that no scatter only worked for chaos daemons.

 koooaei wrote:
It's in Legions. Black Legion can roll for deepstrike reserves starting turn 1 if you run the black legion decurion and your warlord+his unit can arrive turn 1 automatically. Though, there's no way to drop raptors w/o scatter. At least none that i'm aware of. So, it's all pretty risky.

You can drop warp talons without scatter if the entire unit is composed of models with the daemon special rule and there is a daemon unit with instrument of chaos coming in first. The Warp talons will then come in automatically and drop without scatter.

It would be pretty cool if you bring a allied detachment of daemons with 2 troops with instrument. if one of the daemon troops come in, the warp talons from a raptor talon formation comes in automatically without scatter and can charge the same turn!

If you do a Black Legion Speartip as well you get all the units in the raptor talon to roll for coming in from DS reserve turn one on a 3+ and are able to charge turn one. OR!! If you make your raptor talon lord your WL put him in a unit with warp talons you can choose to arrive first turn and charge first turn! Give your lord the Black Mace or whatever and yourself a recipe for slaughter!



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I wanna play black legion now..

The no scatter thing is from codex:Chaos daemons. Our Icons no longer do that, because reasons. Even then it only works on units with the daemon special rule and they need to be daemons of a god for no scatter at all, which isn't the case for warp talons.
They only get to reduce the scatter by d6. Cursed earth also allows a unit with the daemon special rule to deepstrike with no scatter and this one works with warp talons (and possibly even with a non-daemon attached IC depending on local meta), but this doesn't work for Black Legion as they arrive on T1 before you can manifest the power.

I dont have the codex with me, but could you bring the "charge even if you ran in the shooting phase item" on a Alpha legion lord I think? bring him with the warp talons.. then you can charge first then right?

 killerpenguin wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
It's in Legions. Black Legion can roll for deepstrike reserves starting turn 1 if you run the black legion decurion and your warlord+his unit can arrive turn 1 automatically. Though, there's no way to drop raptors w/o scatter. At least none that i'm aware of. So, it's all pretty risky.

You can drop warp talons without scatter if the entire unit is composed of models with the daemon special rule and there is a daemon unit with instrument of chaos coming in first. The Warp talons will then come in automatically and drop without scatter.

That's not how the Instrument works, unfortunately. It just allows you to auto-pass a Deep Strike Reserves roll for a Daemon unit if the bearer unit passes one.

The only Deep Strike scatter mitigation we have is the Dimensional Key, which could work well with Black Legion.

 killerpenguin wrote:
I dont have the codex with me, but could you bring the "charge even if you ran in the shooting phase item" on a Alpha legion lord I think? bring him with the warp talons.. then you can charge first then right?

No idea what you mean. The only csm units that can run and charge that come to mind are those from the hounds of abaddon.

 Roknar wrote:

 killerpenguin wrote:
I dont have the codex with me, but could you bring the "charge even if you ran in the shooting phase item" on a Alpha legion lord I think? bring him with the warp talons.. then you can charge first then right?

No idea what you mean. The only csm units that can run and charge that come to mind are those from the hounds of abaddon.

Yea, no that won't work either. I was thinking about the Mindweil from Alpha legion. Because they can't do anything in the movement phase they arrive.

Let me ask you another thing. If I get a maxed out night lords warp talon unit in raptor talon command choice, a night lords warlord with jump pack and the claws of the black hunt and a world Eaters with talisman of burning blood to have them all add 3" to the charge range and re-roll charge range?

I would have to bring a world eaters CAD in that case.

The raptor talon is a core choice for night lords and auxiliary for everybody else, never a command choice. Re-rolling charge distance could be done via an icon of wrath (though not for night lords since that requires mark of khorne.
The talisman doesn't allow re-rolling to charge, it only adds distance.
You could add a lord to the warp talons, but it would have to be another raptor talon lord if you want to still be able to charge from deepstrike.
So two raptor talons, one NL the other WE and then have one of the lords join the others unit as you see fit. You don't need a CAD or decurion of WE, you can just use a stand alone raptor talon formation.

 Roknar wrote:
The raptor talon is a core choice for night lords and auxiliary for everybody else, never a command choice.

You get command benefits if night lords is you primary detachment, one of them are "Strike fast, strike hard" giving you the option to re-roll charge distance.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Roknar wrote:

You could add a lord to the warp talons, but it would have to be another raptor talon lord if you want to still be able to charge from deepstrike.
So two raptor talons, one NL the other WE and then have one of the lords join the others unit as you see fit. You don't need a CAD or decurion of WE, you can just use a stand alone raptor talon formation.

Yea, you're right its just the models from the formation..



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Those three extra inches would be nice though.

The re-rolling charge distances the turn you deepstrike can always be done due to being a jump unit, no need for an icon or command benefit. It's just that you can only do it when you don't use the packs for moving 12.
The icon let's move and still re-roll, same for the command benefit in the case of a NL decurion.
Assuming you don't get a WE decurion, they wouldn't be able to re-roll the charge without an icon on subsequent turns and by extension, their lord that you joined to your NL unit, Preventing the unit from re-rolling. (again, after the turn you deepstrike)

If you have a kharybdis and want to use it, why not take the formation with 20 berserkers that can assault first turn?

Not sure if this is of any interest to you, but a terminator annihilation force terminator unit that disembarks from a dreadclaw/kharybdis T1 can fire twice as they count as having arrived by deepstrike.

 Roknar wrote:

Assuming you don't get a WE decurion, they wouldn't be able to re-roll the charge without an icon on subsequent turns and by extension, their lord that you joined to your NL unit, Preventing the unit from re-rolling. (again, after the turn you deepstrike)

If i understand correctly the unit with a raptor talon lord and warp talons get re-roll charge range both from jump infantry and command benefits, so essentially they can use the jump packs both the movement phase and the assault phase. They can always re-roll charge range because of the command benefit, so they might as well always jump packs in the movement phase. Same for a khone jump infantry unit with icon of wrath, they can always use the jump pack in the movement phase because they can always reroll charge range.

So when the raptor talon arrives from DS they are not able to move, but they are allowed to declare a charge if they are within 12" of an enemy unit and can re-roll the result if they fail the charge.

Yep. But if you were to join a WE raptor talon lord to your NL talon, they wouldn't be able to re-roll the charge on subsequent turns when jumping in the movement phase. The night lords unit wouldn't have an icon of wrath and could re-roll the charge due their command benefit, but the WE lord doesn't have any source of re-rolls left so would stop the whole unit from re-rolling, because he can't.

Hmm... I could be wrong (I just finished reading the core Chaos Marine Codex and Traitors) so don't take it as Gospel, but I am fairly confident, Chaos Space marines are battle brothers with Deamons and thus can help/benefit each other. I'm looking it up right meowz to see if I misread or overlooked something.

But I remember getting really excited about deep striking, skipping scatter and assulting Warp Talons with Mark and Deamons help.

Will post as soon as I find all the rules/formations to see if I'm wrong.

 Roknar wrote:
Yep. But if you were to join a WE raptor talon lord to your NL talon, they wouldn't be able to re-roll the charge on subsequent turns when jumping in the movement phase. The night lords unit wouldn't have an icon of wrath and could re-roll the charge due their command benefit, but the WE lord doesn't have any source of re-rolls left so would stop the whole unit from re-rolling, because he can't.

Wouldn't he just detatch at that point? Or is that only allowed in the movement phase?

Raptor Talon Formation 1 Chaos Lord (free backpack woo!)
3-5 units of Warp talons or Raptors, can assault the same turn they deep strike but as disordered charge.
Extra bonus, if two units from the formation charge the same enemy unit, the enemy suffers -2 to their leadership until the end of the turn.
Super useful for CC tally, and if you have Warp Talons, -2 to your enemies fear test!

But the others were correct, I cannot find any loophole to allow first turn deepstrike, other than through Black Legion detachment (though there may be others I am not aware of).

As for the no scatter: I do believe Chaos Marines benefit from the Deamon Icons. Codex Deamons, says "friendly models" (remember deamons are battle brothers with Chaos Marines!) which deep strike gain their list of bonuses; including same alignment have no scatter (super handy!), of a diffrent God, only d6 scatter (Still handy!) and it makes an exception if there are non deamon units, they do not gain the benefits (IE only warp Talons and no Chaos lord, unless you have some way to give him the deamon trait).

The warp talons aren't of the same alignment. The icon rules specifically refer to daemonic alignments, which warp talons don't have. Compare that to,say, KDK posssessed which have both the mark of khorne and are daemons of khorne. Warp talons only get marks, so they only benefit from the reduced scatter (1d6 instead of 2d6). So cursed earth is better, as it doesn't care about alignments and works up to 12 inch rather than 6.
As for the lord detaching, I suppose that's something you could do, but it doesn't happen automatically.

I've used this trick you're talking about. Daemon allies with banners + mutilators. Even with d6 scatter, it was pretty meh for a mellee unit that wants to come really close to the enemy as you'll likely lack space with all your fast mellee units jumping around.

Sure, you could use a sorc or daemon allies with cursed earth. It works better with some quick daemon stars like a drone star or screamer star. But than why would you waste a ton of points on warp talons for this unreliable combo if you can just add a 2-d mini-star of daemons.

Anywayz. Back to talon formation. Only black legion can deepstrike turn one. Their warlord can atro-pass the reserve roll turn 1. There is no way to get deepstrike mitigation turn one other than allying in daemons with banners and starting them on board. But than you'll only get d6 scatter mitigation for warp talon units within 6" of your deployment zone.

What you can use is get some daemons - like daemonettes or something, buy them a banner (and an instrument if you're also running masque but that's another topic). Roll for them to arrive first. If they arrive first than you deepstrike them and if they don't mishap and die or go back to reserves, all the following deepstriking fully daemon units like warp talons, daemon princes, mutilators, obliterators, etc, can arrive with reduced scatter within 6" of the banner. And daemon princes or kdk possessed in a dreadclaw with same allignment with the banner bearers can arrive w/o scatter at all.

It should be noted that Warp Talons don't have grenades. So, a disorganized charge with no grenades might be pretty bad.