Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm gonna be playing a game with a friend who has asked if he can play traito legions as Allied detachments to a CSM Cad of formation. For example one of the new black legion formations with an AD of night lords. Because both are drawn from the same faction they cannot ally together but it seems they should be able to.

Is this open to obscene abuse? The only thing he'd gain I imagine is obsec for the AD as opposed to unbound or paying the additional troop tax to make it a cad. What are your thoughts on this?

I'd have thought that it would be run as a Combined arms detachment, not an allied force as they are both drawn from the same faction (they're all under the Chaos space marine branch) and I can't really think of any reasons why not. the only thing I'd really say is to ensure that the two forces are easily distinguishable from the other. just remember that the night lords will not benefit from any black legion formation bonuses (If applicable) and vice versa.

Not really a Proposed Rules question, more for the YMDC.

Basically if the Factions are the same, you cannot take an Allied Detachment with the same as your Primary Detachment. Codex Marines allow for this by their Chapter Traits special rule which supersedes this restriction. Do the Traitor Legion rules specifically allow for this?

I believe the Traitor Legions book provides for smaller detachments which could be used in lieu of an Allied Detachment. This may be a better route. Alternatively, look at having a Primary Detachment of Daemons or similar to account for it.

As you already said, they can't, but it's a pretty minor change imho. That said, our decurions and formations are relatively flexible, he might not even need to make an allied detachment if he puts some thought into the list.
As long as they are different Legions, it's really not that different from loyalist chapters allying in the lore. I wouldn't have a problem with my opponent taking an AD, assuming he's not going out of his way to abuse this. Then I'd have them take a daemon CAD or so as their primary and then they can legally abuse legion allied detachments. Although I don't think there is a whole lot of abuse to be had. It's still CSM.

 Roknar wrote:
As you already said, they can't, but it's a pretty minor change imho. That said, our decurions and formations are relatively flexible, he might not even need to make an allied detachment if he puts some thought into the list.
As long as they are different Legions, it's really not that different from loyalist chapters allying in the lore. I wouldn't have a problem with my opponent taking an AD, assuming he's not going out of his way to abuse this. Then I'd have them take a daemon CAD or so as their primary and then they can legally abuse legion allied detachments. Although I don't think there is a whole lot of abuse to be had. It's still CSM.

Lore is not the rules, though. Codex Marines specifically have a rule addressing this case. This has come up in YMDC several times, but I don't recall the Traitor Legion rules specifically stating this like in Chapter Tactics. In fact, every time I asked about this, the question was deflected and never addressed.

So? The lore not being reflected well in the rules is half the reason this sub forum exists. OP wants to know if this would be too much, not whether or not RAW allows it.
Considering that's it's already possible with a minor points investment (daemons CAD or whatever), I really don't think it would hurt to allow straight up allied detachments between legions.

I have to agree with most of the previous statements, as the chaos marines is technically one faction; so taking an ally detachment isn't legal, but taking another CAD is legal. Alternatively if you're not limited to the number of CADs, as you are in tournament play; you could always take take your primary CAD and then take a few formations as secondary CADs. For example field a Black legion Spear tip CAD, then grab a Iron Warriors Cult of destruction formation as a secondary; you may not get all the boons of the Iron Warriors Grand Company, but your obliterators and mutilators still get the siege master rule for being Iron Warriors.

Post modified because of Grammar Errors.

 Roknar wrote:
So? The lore not being reflected well in the rules is half the reason this sub forum exists. OP wants to know if this would be too much, not whether or not RAW allows it.
Considering that's it's already possible with a minor points investment (daemons CAD or whatever), I really don't think it would hurt to allow straight up allied detachments between legions.

True if we're looking to set up a rule change. The original post did not come across as such.

Would it open to abuse, to go by the last question? Maybe, but so much depends on how much the Chaos Marine codex gets changed and updated for it.

Honestly, I am really surprised that Legion "Traits" did not have the same caveat as Chapter Tactics. It is a moronic view for not including it.

Thanks for the responses. It is strange that legion traits aren't treated as chapter tactics.

These new rules for traitor legions do make CSM a lot more fun to play and play against!