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These are some questions whose fluff is quite scant.

A) What was the relationship between the Old Ones and the Eldar Gods?


B) What was the relationship between the Eldar Gods and the first 3 Chaos Gods, before Slaanesh was born. Also, Khaine's relation to Khorne?


C) What is the relationship between Warp entities and Chaos daemons?
e.g. Vampires, Psychneueii, Astral Spectres, Astral Hounds, and Enslavers


D) Did Khaine fight the Necrons?


E) Were Vaul's 100 swords forged before Khaine started torturing Isha?

C) Chaos daemons are fragmented representations of the god they emanate from. There are all kinds of things in the warp apart from the Chaos Gods, they just happen to be the most powerful because they represent the most powerful emotions and drives in the galaxy. They are all essentially warp entities; it's just that the forces of Chaos are (ironically) more organized and directed toward a purpose, and possess stronger identities.

 Luciferian wrote:
C) Chaos daemons are fragmented representations of the god they emanate from. There are all kinds of things in the warp apart from the Chaos Gods, they just happen to be the most powerful because they represent the most powerful emotions and drives in the galaxy. They are all essentially warp entities; it's just that the forces of Chaos are (ironically) more organized and directed toward a purpose, and possess stronger identities.

so whats their relation with the other warp monsters?

I imagine that it's like a hostile ecosystem - the Chaos Gods are by far the largest and most dangerous creatures and would have no problem destroying or devouring the smaller creatures. However, there are many little niches and unseen places where smaller creatures can survive and thrive, feeding on each other and victims in the real world, out of the gaze of the Chaos powers.

C . Non aligned warp entities do exist. The Gods control areas of warp and thus it changes to meet there image. Ie brass and iron for krhone.

Other beings may have lesser holdings. Chaos gods are super powers. Others may be lesser nations unable to face them outside of minor battles. But utterly overwhelmed bigger.

Deamons fight other deamond and the warp beings who seek to expand own areas. They exist just not got same numbers, power or realspave influ

A) The old ones Are the Eldar Gods. Or at least the original basis for the warp entities they would later become.

 jhe90 wrote:
C . Non aligned warp entities do exist. The Gods control areas of warp and thus it changes to meet there image. Ie brass and iron for krhone.

Other beings may have lesser holdings. Chaos gods are super powers. Others may be lesser nations unable to face them outside of minor battles. But utterly overwhelmed bigger.

Deamons fight other deamond and the warp beings who seek to expand own areas. They exist just not got same numbers, power or realspave influ

you mean the Undivided?

Maximus Bitch wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
C . Non aligned warp entities do exist. The Gods control areas of warp and thus it changes to meet there image. Ie brass and iron for krhone.

Other beings may have lesser holdings. Chaos gods are super powers. Others may be lesser nations unable to face them outside of minor battles. But utterly overwhelmed bigger.

Deamons fight other deamond and the warp beings who seek to expand own areas. They exist just not got same numbers, power or realspave influ

you mean the Undivided?

No. Things like harpies, other warp dwelling "deamons" who make there realm on the side lines, between the great gods areas, on the battlefields where they take opertunities when thr great powers weaken.
There not aligned to one god pr another but are part of warps varried "life"

yeah, Chaos Undivided.

so do the Vampires, Psychneueii, Astral Spectres, Astral Hounds, and Enslavers all just steer clear of Chaos?

The way I see it anyway is the warp is divided into territories as such. each group and god has x amount depending on power and the big 4 have largest areas and thus most power.

The big gods and aligned deamons are the alpha predators, they face other alphas for control and can take on the weaker non aligned deamons and foes.

But if they stray out, if there foe is strong. They can take em. They can hold there own to.

Simpley. Thr bog gods have more power. And more deamons so hold more warp and more emotions.

Others are careful of the big gods, but also when they see weakness will attack. Constantly hostile, hellish, but there's a power structure.

Enslavers' are creepy as hell and they break that almost.

Chaos marines, chaos planets exist in this hell as various countless factions vie for power in ceaseless battle of flesh, mortals, deamons and strange beasts that can only live in warp.

A. There are a lot of theories, and no conclusive evidence for any of them. They might have been the Old Ones, they might have been amalgamated psychic war-constructs created by the Old Ones (or the Eldar), they might have been the psychic manifestations of the Eldar's racial memory of the Old Ones (my favourite theory).

D. Yep, or at least the C'Tan. There's an excerpt from one of the old Eldar codices of Khaine and the Eldar fighting the Yngir (C'Tan) using Vaul's swords, and one of his warriors tiring during that fight is how he found out about Vaul's treachery.

B) Unknown but probably enemies. In two points in history have the chaos forces been at the peak of their powers, at the end of the war in heaven and at present time in the storyline. We don't know when the Eldar gods came into existence or the first three Chaos gods so we don't know of any conflicts. As for those two it is unknown thou Ynnead and Slaanesh seem to be very connected do it is possible.

E) here's the tl/dr version of the story. The gods hear that the Eldar will kill them ( this is probably a reference to the Eldar creating Slaanesh), Khaine decides to kill them first, Isha convinces Asuryan to spare them but he also seperates the gods from the Eldar forever. Isha and Kurnous break this rule using the soulstones, get caught, Knaine is like what the f***, Asuryan is pissed so he gives I and K to Khaine to torture. Vaul being a good friend made a deal with Khaine to spare them by forging 100 swords. He failed, tried to trick him, didn't work started the war in heaven (not clear if this is the same war as the old ones vs necrons or not)

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
A. There are a lot of theories, and no conclusive evidence for any of them. They might have been the Old Ones, they might have been amalgamated psychic war-constructs created by the Old Ones (or the Eldar), they might have been the psychic manifestations of the Eldar's racial memory of the Old Ones (my favourite theory).

D. Yep, or at least the C'Tan. There's an excerpt from one of the old Eldar codices of Khaine and the Eldar fighting the Yngir (C'Tan) using Vaul's swords, and one of his warriors tiring during that fight is how he found out about Vaul's treachery.

Is there some part about Khaine being tainted too?

Yeah there' a piece of fluff regarding Dark Reapers which said that when Khaine defeated the Nightbringer, a fragment embedded itself into Khaine, giving him the aspect of the Reaper.

Oh, some more things.

E. Vaul forged the swords after Khaine started torturing Isha. Vaul struck a bargain with Khaine to release them, and forging the 100 swords was Vaul's end of that bargain.

C. Thinking about it, warp entities like Enslavers and Psychneueii are actually fairly distinct from Chaos Daemons. Chaos daemons are created when a Chaos God splits off a portion of its power and imbues it with sentience. Enslavers and other such beings seem to be more like distinct creatures that just dwell in the warp, rather than fragments of gods.

Of course, everything in the warp is very poorly understood, doesn't seem to follow rules religiously, and is all semi (or wholly) metaphorical anyway*. It could well be that all of these unaligned entities like enslavers are themselves fragments of long-deceased Chaos Gods.

*For instance, I don't personally believe that Khorne is a big red angry dude sitting on a throne of skulls and brass somewhere in the warp. 'Khorne' is a truly galactic-scale rolling thunderstorm comprised of billions upon billions of souls who died during warfare. So massive in its size that it has achieved consciousness. Because the very nature of the warp is so utterly incomprehensible to mortals, their brains desperately try to construct something that appears coherent from the swirling miasma and brings up fleeting images of brass-etched structures and vast thrones constructed from billions upon billions of skulls. It's not what is actually there, but is the closest image a mortal mind can construct to perceive it.

 Maximus Bitch wrote:
These are some questions whose fluff is quite scant.

A) What was the relationship between the Old Ones and the Eldar Gods?


B) What was the relationship between the Eldar Gods and the first 3 Chaos Gods, before Slaanesh was born. Also, Khaine's relation to Khorne?

This is my interpretation of it, and based on the fact that Slaanesh is an "Eldar" Chaos God, wholly created by the the Eldar's Fall. This information impliies that KTN are "human" Chaos Gods formed from human emotion.

The Old Ones created a masterfully psychic race to face the Necrons, capable of incredible feats of concious psychic power and technology, to try and counter the Necrons' ultra-advanced tech. They also created the Orks as subconcious version, who are single-minded and incorruptible.

The Eldar's amassed Psychic power, in believing in Gods such as Khaine and Asuryan, manifests as legitimate beings in the same way Chaos Gods do. They represent aspects such as anger and violence, but in a controlled and respected and most important, concious manner. In that where Khorne was created, unknowingly, by all the wars through the middle ages such as the Crusades, Khaine was a purposefully created manifestation of Eldar's rage and violence. This is the key difference, in that one is a "pure" form of the emotion, given life, and the others are a perversion of those emotions who take their life from the raw power in the Warp.

In this sense, Khaine is the "good" version of Khorne, but represents the same things in Eldar as Khorne does in humanity. Slaanesh on the other hand, is an unconcious creation as with the other Chaos Gods, representing the raw psychic resonance of the Eldar's debauchery. It was created by the Eldar, who experience things on a physical and spiritual level far in excess of other races (heightened senses, pleasure centres, rage) as well as their psychic power, basically going on species wide orgies. The sheer volume of pleasure and excess resonating in the Warp forced Slaanesh into being.

Nurgle, on the other hand, is a representation of Death and Decay, and the oldest god as those things have existed long before war or ambition did. The build-up of Death and Decay in the universe, reflected in the warp, forced Nurgle to become a manifest entity rather than a reflection of those aspects. Similarly, the Middle Ages had the Crusades and the Hundred Years War, among others, and the violence, blood and warfare overloaded the warp and forced him into being. Tzeentch the same but with things like the growing fascination with magic over the years (from Witch Trials to modern-day street magicians) as well as plotting, ambition and scheming that's so prevalent within this corrupt world.

Now, I mentioned before the significance of Eldar vs Human Chaos Gods, and I'll address that now.

Eldar have the psychic power as a race to manifest their emotions and energies in the warp as beings themselves, the Eldar Gods. Khaine, representing anger and aggression. Isha, fertility and life. Cegorach, tricks and misleading. These represent "pure" forms of those aspects and emotions.

Humans are only just beginning to realise their psychic potential in the 40k timeline, and so during the times when the Chaos Gods were formed, were not able to create pure forms themselves. Instead, the corrupt versions simply came to be. Khorne, a god of war, rage and hatred. Nurgle, death and decay. Tzeentch, scheming and deceit. They represent darker, corrupted versions of those three Eldar Gods, and I would not be surprised if the minor chaos gods, although technically retconned, represented dark and twisted versions of those other gods, such as Vaul (ie, the Dark Mechanicum).

Slaanesh falls in the middle. A dark and twisted version of Eldar. Where an Eldar God counterpart might be a "pure" being of love, compassion and companionship, they lost control and gave into hedonism and excess, leading to the corrupt Chaos God Slaanesh.







So to sum up: Eldar Gods are concious creations of the Eldar psyche which manifest as pure and wholesome representations of the Eldar mind. Chaos Gods are unconcious creations of man (and Eldar in Slaanesh's case) that took form due to uncontrolled and darkened reflections in the warp. Khaine and Khorne, Isha and Nurgle, Cegorach and Tzeentch, two sides of the same coin.

 Deadshot wrote:

So to sum up: Eldar Gods are concious creations of the Eldar psyche which manifest as pure and wholesome representations of the Eldar mind. Chaos Gods are unconcious creations of man (and Eldar in Slaanesh's case) that took form due to uncontrolled and darkened reflections in the warp. Khaine and Khorne, Isha and Nurgle, Cegorach and Tzeentch, two sides of the same coin.

Yeah I like that as an interpretation. I would however dispute the fact that the Eldar gods are 'a pure and wholesome representation of the Eldar mind'. Some of them represent pure and wholesome aspects (primarily Isha), but a good number of the others are fairly horrible. For instance, Khaine spends a good proportion of his history trying to genocide the Eldar, and Asuryan the king of the gods simply stands by and lets it happen (until Isha makes a fuss). It's also stated that during the War in Heaven different Eldar Gods switched sides a number of times, suggesting that many Gods fought alongside Khaine trying to kill the Eldar at one point or another. Then, when Isha and Kurnous break Asuryan's draconian ban on contact with the Eldar he happily hands them to Khaine for imprisonment and torture. Vaul stands up for Isha and Kurnous, and eventually goes to war with Khaine and is beaten and crippled. Only then does Asuryan decide that enough's enough and tells everyone to stop killing each other. Then, later when Slaanesh has murdered most of the pantheon Khaine steps up to fight (note after she's eaten most of the gods, not before). At this point, Cegorach shouts 'I know I said I'd fight beside you, but jokes man I'm sodding off' and left Khaine to die. Oh, and the Avatar of Khaine requires an Eldar sacrifice to wake up, and

You're absolutely bang on with them being reflections of the Chaos gods, and they're certainly less truly evil and twisted. However, 'pure and wholesome' they most certainly are not

 Deadshot wrote:

 Maximus Bitch wrote:
These are some questions whose fluff is quite scant.

A) What was the relationship between the Old Ones and the Eldar Gods?


B) What was the relationship between the Eldar Gods and the first 3 Chaos Gods, before Slaanesh was born. Also, Khaine's relation to Khorne?

The Old Ones created a masterfully psychic race to face the Necrons, capable of incredible feats of concious psychic power and technology, to try and counter the Necrons' ultra-advanced tech. They also created the Orks as subconcious version, who are single-minded and incorruptible.

The Eldar's amassed Psychic power, in believing in Gods such as Khaine and Asuryan, manifests as legitimate beings in the same way Chaos Gods do. They represent aspects such as anger and violence, but in a controlled and respected and most important, concious manner.

So to sum up: Eldar Gods are concious creations of the Eldar psyche which manifest as pure and wholesome representations of the Eldar mind. Chaos Gods are unconcious creations of man (and Eldar in Slaanesh's case) that took form due to uncontrolled and darkened reflections in the warp. Khaine and Khorne, Isha and Nurgle, Cegorach and Tzeentch, two sides of the same coin.

I wonder if the Old Ones interacted with the Eldar Gods as well.

 Maximus Bitch wrote:

I wonder if the Old Ones interacted with the Eldar Gods as well.

I don't thinks so. I'm with Ynneadwraith in thinking that the Eldar gods as manifestations of the Eldar races "memory" of the Old Ones.
So the Eldar gods as they exist at the point when Slaanesh came into being are just reflections of Old Ones that existed during the War in Heaven.

These ancient Aeldari would have probably thought the Old Ones (who actually did create them) were their gods. When the Old Ones left/disappeared/whatever happened to them, the psychic consciousness of the Eldar formed their Pantheon to replace them.

-

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

So to sum up: Eldar Gods are concious creations of the Eldar psyche which manifest as pure and wholesome representations of the Eldar mind. Chaos Gods are unconcious creations of man (and Eldar in Slaanesh's case) that took form due to uncontrolled and darkened reflections in the warp. Khaine and Khorne, Isha and Nurgle, Cegorach and Tzeentch, two sides of the same coin.

Yeah I like that as an interpretation. I would however dispute the fact that the Eldar gods are 'a pure and wholesome representation of the Eldar mind'. Some of them represent pure and wholesome aspects (primarily Isha), but a good number of the others are fairly horrible. For instance, Khaine spends a good proportion of his history trying to genocide the Eldar, and Asuryan the king of the gods simply stands by and lets it happen (until Isha makes a fuss). It's also stated that during the War in Heaven different Eldar Gods switched sides a number of times, suggesting that many Gods fought alongside Khaine trying to kill the Eldar at one point or another. Then, when Isha and Kurnous break Asuryan's draconian ban on contact with the Eldar he happily hands them to Khaine for imprisonment and torture. Vaul stands up for Isha and Kurnous, and eventually goes to war with Khaine and is beaten and crippled. Only then does Asuryan decide that enough's enough and tells everyone to stop killing each other. Then, later when Slaanesh has murdered most of the pantheon Khaine steps up to fight (note after she's eaten most of the gods, not before). At this point, Cegorach shouts 'I know I said I'd fight beside you, but jokes man I'm sodding off' and left Khaine to die. Oh, and the Avatar of Khaine requires an Eldar sacrifice to wake up, and

You're absolutely bang on with them being reflections of the Chaos gods, and they're certainly less truly evil and twisted. However, 'pure and wholesome' they most certainly are not

I think you misunderstand my use of "pure and wholesome." I use it not to mean "good" but rather, as an accurate, unspoiled representation. Khaine is the god of war and so went to war with those trying to kill him. Asuryan is justice and order, and so ruled according to the law (as he is based on Zeus, this is probably accurate). Isha is basically Aphrodite, and so represents compassion and love.

Anyway, they represent their aspects in a pure form, completely in the letter and spirit of their aspect. Chaos Gods are malicious and corrupted versions. For example, remember that GW moved away from the Chaos Gods having good sides, such as Khorne having martial honour. Khaine represents war and aggression, Khorne as butchery and rage.

The actual acts of the gods are based heavily in Greek mythology, with Asuryan being Zeus, Khaine as Ares/Hades, Isha as Hera/Aphrodite/Artemis, Kuoronus being Apollo, Vaul as Haphaestus, etc. Greek myth has many examples of gods fighting each other, fighting humanity, switching sides, incest and all the other gak. Slaanesh in that sense represents an abstract Cronos, who devoured his children.

Also remember that as reflections of the Eldar Psyche, the gods are subject to the Eldar mindset. If the Eldar were too busy being Dark Eldar all the time, of course the Pantheon would be in turmoil.

As for sacrifices, this is common. After all, Khaine is factually real, we have his shards to summon. These Eldar Gods are basically Daemons, and as with other Daemons, they require ritual and sacrifices. One such method is to scarifice a nominated member of the race. The second is to have 6 of his most powerful warriors, the Pheonix Lords, present and bring him to life. Also note, the number 6 is also Slaanesh's sacred number

 Deadshot wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

So to sum up: Eldar Gods are concious creations of the Eldar psyche which manifest as pure and wholesome representations of the Eldar mind. Chaos Gods are unconcious creations of man (and Eldar in Slaanesh's case) that took form due to uncontrolled and darkened reflections in the warp. Khaine and Khorne, Isha and Nurgle, Cegorach and Tzeentch, two sides of the same coin.

Yeah I like that as an interpretation. I would however dispute the fact that the Eldar gods are 'a pure and wholesome representation of the Eldar mind'. Some of them represent pure and wholesome aspects (primarily Isha), but a good number of the others are fairly horrible. For instance, Khaine spends a good proportion of his history trying to genocide the Eldar, and Asuryan the king of the gods simply stands by and lets it happen (until Isha makes a fuss). It's also stated that during the War in Heaven different Eldar Gods switched sides a number of times, suggesting that many Gods fought alongside Khaine trying to kill the Eldar at one point or another. Then, when Isha and Kurnous break Asuryan's draconian ban on contact with the Eldar he happily hands them to Khaine for imprisonment and torture. Vaul stands up for Isha and Kurnous, and eventually goes to war with Khaine and is beaten and crippled. Only then does Asuryan decide that enough's enough and tells everyone to stop killing each other. Then, later when Slaanesh has murdered most of the pantheon Khaine steps up to fight (note after she's eaten most of the gods, not before). At this point, Cegorach shouts 'I know I said I'd fight beside you, but jokes man I'm sodding off' and left Khaine to die. Oh, and the Avatar of Khaine requires an Eldar sacrifice to wake up, and

You're absolutely bang on with them being reflections of the Chaos gods, and they're certainly less truly evil and twisted. However, 'pure and wholesome' they most certainly are not

I think you misunderstand my use of "pure and wholesome." I use it not to mean "good" but rather, as an accurate, unspoiled representation. Khaine is the god of war and so went to war with those trying to kill him. Asuryan is justice and order, and so ruled according to the law (as he is based on Zeus, this is probably accurate). Isha is basically Aphrodite, and so represents compassion and love.

Anyway, they represent their aspects in a pure form, completely in the letter and spirit of their aspect. Chaos Gods are malicious and corrupted versions. For example, remember that GW moved away from the Chaos Gods having good sides, such as Khorne having martial honour. Khaine represents war and aggression, Khorne as butchery and rage.

The actual acts of the gods are based heavily in Greek mythology, with Asuryan being Zeus, Khaine as Ares/Hades, Isha as Hera/Aphrodite/Artemis, Kuoronus being Apollo, Vaul as Haphaestus, etc. Greek myth has many examples of gods fighting each other, fighting humanity, switching sides, incest and all the other gak. Slaanesh in that sense represents an abstract Cronos, who devoured his children.

Also remember that as reflections of the Eldar Psyche, the gods are subject to the Eldar mindset. If the Eldar were too busy being Dark Eldar all the time, of course the Pantheon would be in turmoil.

As for sacrifices, this is common. After all, Khaine is factually real, we have his shards to summon. These Eldar Gods are basically Daemons, and as with other Daemons, they require ritual and sacrifices. One such method is to scarifice a nominated member of the race. The second is to have 6 of his most powerful warriors, the Pheonix Lords, present and bring him to life. Also note, the number 6 is also Slaanesh's sacred number

My inner mythology nerd is cringing at a lot of those comparisons to Greek pantheon. I'm not familiar with any real similarities between Asuryan and Zeus other than that they're both patriarchal figures. If anything, Zeus has more in common with Slaanesh than with Asuryan. I don't recall Aphrodite ever being particularly "compassionate" unless you count turning a lady into a hideous monster after being assaulted as compassion. Isha strikes me as more of a Demeter. Less abstract "love," and more motherly/fertility goddess. This is also inkeeping with the mother/maiden/crone theme that Isha, Lileath, and the Mora-Heg are doing. I don't see any parallels between Apollo (associated with music, poetry, prophecy, and medicine) and Kurnous (compare to the pagan god Curnous popular in modern Wicca as a counterpart to mother/maiden/crone goddesses). I think the stronger comparison would be between Kurnous and Artemis. Isha/Lileath/theMora-Heg when taken as a whole might also be compared to Hecate. Vaul and Hephaestus are a reasonable comparison as are Khaine and Ares. I'm not sure where the Hades part comes in though. Wife abduction aside, Hades was more lonely and reclusive than anything. He's like... the wealthy introvert who doesn't have time for his drunk, abusive, incestuous family.

Now all that aside... I think I agree with the larger point you're making. The eldar pantheon can largely be seen as more... cleanly-sculpted counterparts to some of the chaos gods. Where Khorne is sort of a catch-all for any sort of violence and bloodshed including random acts of violence, rage-induced assault, etc., Khaine is of war and murder with a point. Khaine doesn't want to slaughter the eldar just to see their blood and collect their skulls. He wanted to slaughter them because they posed a threat to the gods. He didn't torture Isha and Kurnous just to be a dick (though he was a dick); he did it as an act of vengeance. I think of it this way: Khaine is like a piece of Khorne. If Khorne was the clay of anger and bloodshed, Khaine is a specific statuette crafted with the skill and perspective of a single artist (the eldar psyche). Khaine is basically formed from a much more niche chunk of warp energy. While they both draw strength from violence and murder, Khaine is a little more specific about what energy he gets pumped up by. Khorne likes when you slaughter babies or challenge hordes of babies to glorious combat. Khaine is more about killing that one baby to stop X from happening and challenging all the babies of your rival house to punish their family for opposing your own.

Although I might be talking out of my rump on this one. The Path of the Eldar trilogy references Alaitoc-y myths about pre-path eldar who basically became murderous monsters when they became obsessed with Khainate things.

Isha hangs out with Nurgle because they're both tied to nature and life and because Isha's emphasis on healing balances out Nurgle's emphasis on sickness.

I want to compare Tzeentch to Cegorach because tricky, but I'm not sure there's all that much to compare, really. I see Cegorach as one part Loki (causing trouble for trouble's sake half the time) and a trickster spirit of self-reflection. Sort of like fox spirits that highlight the flaws and follies of their victims by playing pranks on them, thus encouraging them to improve. When a craftworlder is being too gloom and doom or when a commorright is being too arrogant, harlequins are there to make fun of them and force them to take a look at themselves. Tzeentch on the other hand seems to mostly be made of the unknown, mysterious, occult power angle. More Odin than Loki, really. Despite the fire and trickery connections. He's caveman marveling at fire and wondering what mysteries it represents. He's the priestess of Hecate who wields power by virtue of being spooky and mysterious. When a Fenrisian mutters, "That magic stuff is just wrong and not for men to dabble in," Tzeentch is the guy who whispers, "But what if I did dabble?"




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Good catch on the "six phoenix lords" thing, but I'm not sure if that still holds up in an era where Drastanta existed at some point and Irrilth may or may not canonically exist.

P.S. The type of "love" Aphrodite is generally associated with (Eros) is not generally the selfless, motherly love expressed by Isha.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

So to sum up: Eldar Gods are concious creations of the Eldar psyche which manifest as pure and wholesome representations of the Eldar mind. Chaos Gods are unconcious creations of man (and Eldar in Slaanesh's case) that took form due to uncontrolled and darkened reflections in the warp. Khaine and Khorne, Isha and Nurgle, Cegorach and Tzeentch, two sides of the same coin.

Yeah I like that as an interpretation. I would however dispute the fact that the Eldar gods are 'a pure and wholesome representation of the Eldar mind'. Some of them represent pure and wholesome aspects (primarily Isha), but a good number of the others are fairly horrible. For instance, Khaine spends a good proportion of his history trying to genocide the Eldar, and Asuryan the king of the gods simply stands by and lets it happen (until Isha makes a fuss). It's also stated that during the War in Heaven different Eldar Gods switched sides a number of times, suggesting that many Gods fought alongside Khaine trying to kill the Eldar at one point or another. Then, when Isha and Kurnous break Asuryan's draconian ban on contact with the Eldar he happily hands them to Khaine for imprisonment and torture. Vaul stands up for Isha and Kurnous, and eventually goes to war with Khaine and is beaten and crippled. Only then does Asuryan decide that enough's enough and tells everyone to stop killing each other. Then, later when Slaanesh has murdered most of the pantheon Khaine steps up to fight (note after she's eaten most of the gods, not before). At this point, Cegorach shouts 'I know I said I'd fight beside you, but jokes man I'm sodding off' and left Khaine to die. Oh, and the Avatar of Khaine requires an Eldar sacrifice to wake up, and

You're absolutely bang on with them being reflections of the Chaos gods, and they're certainly less truly evil and twisted. However, 'pure and wholesome' they most certainly are not

I think you misunderstand my use of "pure and wholesome." I use it not to mean "good" but rather, as an accurate, unspoiled representation. Khaine is the god of war and so went to war with those trying to kill him. Asuryan is justice and order, and so ruled according to the law (as he is based on Zeus, this is probably accurate). Isha is basically Aphrodite, and so represents compassion and love.

Anyway, they represent their aspects in a pure form, completely in the letter and spirit of their aspect. Chaos Gods are malicious and corrupted versions. For example, remember that GW moved away from the Chaos Gods having good sides, such as Khorne having martial honour. Khaine represents war and aggression, Khorne as butchery and rage.

The actual acts of the gods are based heavily in Greek mythology, with Asuryan being Zeus, Khaine as Ares/Hades, Isha as Hera/Aphrodite/Artemis, Kuoronus being Apollo, Vaul as Haphaestus, etc. Greek myth has many examples of gods fighting each other, fighting humanity, switching sides, incest and all the other gak. Slaanesh in that sense represents an abstract Cronos, who devoured his children.

Also remember that as reflections of the Eldar Psyche, the gods are subject to the Eldar mindset. If the Eldar were too busy being Dark Eldar all the time, of course the Pantheon would be in turmoil.

As for sacrifices, this is common. After all, Khaine is factually real, we have his shards to summon. These Eldar Gods are basically Daemons, and as with other Daemons, they require ritual and sacrifices. One such method is to scarifice a nominated member of the race. The second is to have 6 of his most powerful warriors, the Pheonix Lords, present and bring him to life. Also note, the number 6 is also Slaanesh's sacred number

My inner mythology nerd is cringing at a lot of those comparisons to Greek pantheon. I'm not familiar with any real similarities between Asuryan and Zeus other than that they're both patriarchal figures. If anything, Zeus has more in common with Slaanesh than with Asuryan. I don't recall Aphrodite ever being particularly "compassionate" unless you count turning a lady into a hideous monster after being assaulted as compassion. Isha strikes me as more of a Demeter. Less abstract "love," and more motherly/fertility goddess. This is also inkeeping with the mother/maiden/crone theme that Isha, Lileath, and the Mora-Heg are doing. I don't see any parallels between Apollo (associated with music, poetry, prophecy, and medicine) and Kurnous (compare to the pagan god Curnous popular in modern Wicca as a counterpart to mother/maiden/crone goddesses). I think the stronger comparison would be between Kurnous and Artemis. Isha/Lileath/theMora-Heg when taken as a whole might also be compared to Hecate. Vaul and Hephaestus are a reasonable comparison as are Khaine and Ares. I'm not sure where the Hades part comes in though. Wife abduction aside, Hades was more lonely and reclusive than anything. He's like... the wealthy introvert who doesn't have time for his drunk, abusive, incestuous family.

Now all that aside... I think I agree with the larger point you're making. The eldar pantheon can largely be seen as more... cleanly-sculpted counterparts to some of the chaos gods. Where Khorne is sort of a catch-all for any sort of violence and bloodshed including random acts of violence, rage-induced assault, etc., Khaine is of war and murder with a point. Khaine doesn't want to slaughter the eldar just to see their blood and collect their skulls. He wanted to slaughter them because they posed a threat to the gods. He didn't torture Isha and Kurnous just to be a dick (though he was a dick); he did it as an act of vengeance. I think of it this way: Khaine is like a piece of Khorne. If Khorne was the clay of anger and bloodshed, Khaine is a specific statuette crafted with the skill and perspective of a single artist (the eldar psyche). Khaine is basically formed from a much more niche chunk of warp energy. While they both draw strength from violence and murder, Khaine is a little more specific about what energy he gets pumped up by. Khorne likes when you slaughter babies or challenge hordes of babies to glorious combat. Khaine is more about killing that one baby to stop X from happening and challenging all the babies of your rival house to punish their family for opposing your own.

Although I might be talking out of my rump on this one. The Path of the Eldar trilogy references Alaitoc-y myths about pre-path eldar who basically became murderous monsters when they became obsessed with Khainate things.

Isha hangs out with Nurgle because they're both tied to nature and life and because Isha's emphasis on healing balances out Nurgle's emphasis on sickness.

I want to compare Tzeentch to Cegorach because tricky, but I'm not sure there's all that much to compare, really. I see Cegorach as one part Loki (causing trouble for trouble's sake half the time) and a trickster spirit of self-reflection. Sort of like fox spirits that highlight the flaws and follies of their victims by playing pranks on them, thus encouraging them to improve. When a craftworlder is being too gloom and doom or when a commorright is being too arrogant, harlequins are there to make fun of them and force them to take a look at themselves. Tzeentch on the other hand seems to mostly be made of the unknown, mysterious, occult power angle. More Odin than Loki, really. Despite the fire and trickery connections. He's caveman marveling at fire and wondering what mysteries it represents. He's the priestess of Hecate who wields power by virtue of being spooky and mysterious. When a Fenrisian mutters, "That magic stuff is just wrong and not for men to dabble in," Tzeentch is the guy who whispers, "But what if I did dabble?"




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Good catch on the "six phoenix lords" thing, but I'm not sure if that still holds up in an era where Drastanta existed at some point and Irrilth may or may not canonically exist.

P.S. The type of "love" Aphrodite is generally associated with (Eros) is not generally the selfless, motherly love expressed by Isha.

ok,ok, stay on topic guys. haha

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

So to sum up: Eldar Gods are concious creations of the Eldar psyche which manifest as pure and wholesome representations of the Eldar mind. Chaos Gods are unconcious creations of man (and Eldar in Slaanesh's case) that took form due to uncontrolled and darkened reflections in the warp. Khaine and Khorne, Isha and Nurgle, Cegorach and Tzeentch, two sides of the same coin.

Yeah I like that as an interpretation. I would however dispute the fact that the Eldar gods are 'a pure and wholesome representation of the Eldar mind'. Some of them represent pure and wholesome aspects (primarily Isha), but a good number of the others are fairly horrible. For instance, Khaine spends a good proportion of his history trying to genocide the Eldar, and Asuryan the king of the gods simply stands by and lets it happen (until Isha makes a fuss). It's also stated that during the War in Heaven different Eldar Gods switched sides a number of times, suggesting that many Gods fought alongside Khaine trying to kill the Eldar at one point or another. Then, when Isha and Kurnous break Asuryan's draconian ban on contact with the Eldar he happily hands them to Khaine for imprisonment and torture. Vaul stands up for Isha and Kurnous, and eventually goes to war with Khaine and is beaten and crippled. Only then does Asuryan decide that enough's enough and tells everyone to stop killing each other. Then, later when Slaanesh has murdered most of the pantheon Khaine steps up to fight (note after she's eaten most of the gods, not before). At this point, Cegorach shouts 'I know I said I'd fight beside you, but jokes man I'm sodding off' and left Khaine to die. Oh, and the Avatar of Khaine requires an Eldar sacrifice to wake up, and

You're absolutely bang on with them being reflections of the Chaos gods, and they're certainly less truly evil and twisted. However, 'pure and wholesome' they most certainly are not

I think you misunderstand my use of "pure and wholesome." I use it not to mean "good" but rather, as an accurate, unspoiled representation. Khaine is the god of war and so went to war with those trying to kill him. Asuryan is justice and order, and so ruled according to the law (as he is based on Zeus, this is probably accurate). Isha is basically Aphrodite, and so represents compassion and love.

Anyway, they represent their aspects in a pure form, completely in the letter and spirit of their aspect. Chaos Gods are malicious and corrupted versions. For example, remember that GW moved away from the Chaos Gods having good sides, such as Khorne having martial honour. Khaine represents war and aggression, Khorne as butchery and rage.

The actual acts of the gods are based heavily in Greek mythology, with Asuryan being Zeus, Khaine as Ares/Hades, Isha as Hera/Aphrodite/Artemis, Kuoronus being Apollo, Vaul as Haphaestus, etc. Greek myth has many examples of gods fighting each other, fighting humanity, switching sides, incest and all the other gak. Slaanesh in that sense represents an abstract Cronos, who devoured his children.

Also remember that as reflections of the Eldar Psyche, the gods are subject to the Eldar mindset. If the Eldar were too busy being Dark Eldar all the time, of course the Pantheon would be in turmoil.

As for sacrifices, this is common. After all, Khaine is factually real, we have his shards to summon. These Eldar Gods are basically Daemons, and as with other Daemons, they require ritual and sacrifices. One such method is to scarifice a nominated member of the race. The second is to have 6 of his most powerful warriors, the Pheonix Lords, present and bring him to life. Also note, the number 6 is also Slaanesh's sacred number

My inner mythology nerd is cringing at a lot of those comparisons to Greek pantheon. I'm not familiar with any real similarities between Asuryan and Zeus other than that they're both patriarchal figures. If anything, Zeus has more in common with Slaanesh than with Asuryan. I don't recall Aphrodite ever being particularly "compassionate" unless you count turning a lady into a hideous monster after being assaulted as compassion. Isha strikes me as more of a Demeter. Less abstract "love," and more motherly/fertility goddess. This is also inkeeping with the mother/maiden/crone theme that Isha, Lileath, and the Mora-Heg are doing. I don't see any parallels between Apollo (associated with music, poetry, prophecy, and medicine) and Kurnous (compare to the pagan god Curnous popular in modern Wicca as a counterpart to mother/maiden/crone goddesses). I think the stronger comparison would be between Kurnous and Artemis. Isha/Lileath/theMora-Heg when taken as a whole might also be compared to Hecate. Vaul and Hephaestus are a reasonable comparison as are Khaine and Ares. I'm not sure where the Hades part comes in though. Wife abduction aside, Hades was more lonely and reclusive than anything. He's like... the wealthy introvert who doesn't have time for his drunk, abusive, incestuous family.

Now all that aside... I think I agree with the larger point you're making. The eldar pantheon can largely be seen as more... cleanly-sculpted counterparts to some of the chaos gods. Where Khorne is sort of a catch-all for any sort of violence and bloodshed including random acts of violence, rage-induced assault, etc., Khaine is of war and murder with a point. Khaine doesn't want to slaughter the eldar just to see their blood and collect their skulls. He wanted to slaughter them because they posed a threat to the gods. He didn't torture Isha and Kurnous just to be a dick (though he was a dick); he did it as an act of vengeance. I think of it this way: Khaine is like a piece of Khorne. If Khorne was the clay of anger and bloodshed, Khaine is a specific statuette crafted with the skill and perspective of a single artist (the eldar psyche). Khaine is basically formed from a much more niche chunk of warp energy. While they both draw strength from violence and murder, Khaine is a little more specific about what energy he gets pumped up by. Khorne likes when you slaughter babies or challenge hordes of babies to glorious combat. Khaine is more about killing that one baby to stop X from happening and challenging all the babies of your rival house to punish their family for opposing your own.

Although I might be talking out of my rump on this one. The Path of the Eldar trilogy references Alaitoc-y myths about pre-path eldar who basically became murderous monsters when they became obsessed with Khainate things.

Isha hangs out with Nurgle because they're both tied to nature and life and because Isha's emphasis on healing balances out Nurgle's emphasis on sickness.

I want to compare Tzeentch to Cegorach because tricky, but I'm not sure there's all that much to compare, really. I see Cegorach as one part Loki (causing trouble for trouble's sake half the time) and a trickster spirit of self-reflection. Sort of like fox spirits that highlight the flaws and follies of their victims by playing pranks on them, thus encouraging them to improve. When a craftworlder is being too gloom and doom or when a commorright is being too arrogant, harlequins are there to make fun of them and force them to take a look at themselves. Tzeentch on the other hand seems to mostly be made of the unknown, mysterious, occult power angle. More Odin than Loki, really. Despite the fire and trickery connections. He's caveman marveling at fire and wondering what mysteries it represents. He's the priestess of Hecate who wields power by virtue of being spooky and mysterious. When a Fenrisian mutters, "That magic stuff is just wrong and not for men to dabble in," Tzeentch is the guy who whispers, "But what if I did dabble?"




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Good catch on the "six phoenix lords" thing, but I'm not sure if that still holds up in an era where Drastanta existed at some point and Irrilth may or may not canonically exist.

P.S. The type of "love" Aphrodite is generally associated with (Eros) is not generally the selfless, motherly love expressed by Isha.

Just to vlarify on the Greek/Eldar links;

Obviously there is much abstraction and not all things line up particularly well. I put Asuryan/Zeus dowm purely from that paternal/main god angle, as they fulfill that same role in the Pantheon. Isha is, of course, more Demeter than Aphrodite when you put it like that, agreed, but I also throw a touch of Hera in there as she is "the mother" of the Eldar race as opposed to Asuryan's "farher." Obviously Vaul is Haphaestus, master smith but horribly disfigured. The Hades-Khaine comparison is down to the fact they are the brother of the father god figure. Albeit, Zeus is pretty much father, brother or uncle (or some combination of the three) to all the Greek Gods, but Hades and Poseidon are picked out as his brothers, as Khaine is to Asuryan. Kuorunos, God of the Hunt, is a frequent companion to Isha, not unlike Artemis and Apollo in their twinhood. They just go together.

Obviously to links are not exact, but they are there. I do like your further pointe surrounding Wicca and other things.

I have only briefly had time to skim your points on the Chaos Gods but from what I can see they are very insightful and interesting! Looking forward to reading properly at a later stage.

@Maximus Bitch


We are on topic, we're discussing the links between the Chaos and Eldar Gods, which is on topic, and the Greek gods, which explores the creation and out of universe links that reveal how the Eldar Gods relate to the wider 40k universe.

 Deadshot wrote:
We are on topic, we're discussing the links between the Chaos and Eldar Gods, which is on topic, and the Greek gods, which explores the creation and out of universe links that reveal how the Eldar Gods relate to the wider 40k universe.

Sorry, my bad, because my question wasn't phrased well.


By "relationship", I mean the equivalent of "personal relationships" between Gods.


When Slaanesh was born, she royally fethed gak up and slaughtered most of the Eldar Gods. But before Slaanesh, there were also Tzeentch, Khorne & Nurgle. I wonder how the Eldar Gods dealt with these 3 dudes.

 Maximus Bitch wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
We are on topic, we're discussing the links between the Chaos and Eldar Gods, which is on topic, and the Greek gods, which explores the creation and out of universe links that reveal how the Eldar Gods relate to the wider 40k universe.

Sorry, my bad, because my question wasn't phrased well.


By "relationship", I mean the equivalent of "personal relationships" between Gods.


When Slaanesh was born, she royally fethed gak up and slaughtered most of the Eldar Gods. But before Slaanesh, there were also Tzeentch, Khorne & Nurgle. I wonder how the Eldar Gods dealt with these 3 dudes.

Ah, I see, apologies for that but a little bit of further exploration to enjoy


Given the complete lack of fluff I'd imagine they just ignored each other. Given Khorne was only formed during the middle ages, and I'd imagine Tzeentch in the Rennaisance/21st Century, and the Eldar predate dinosaur extinction, I'd say they probably didn't bother each other. In fact, given the Fall happened circa M30 or so, I'd imagine the Dark Gods lay low and bided their time, only really coming to power when the Eldar were decimated by Slaanesh. This makes sense given how they had to make a deal with the Emperor, how most Cults during the GC were restricted to planets like Laer and Cadia and not widespread, and how the Eldar were basically the dominant galactic race with a much greater pull on the Warp, I'd say Chaos was likely on the backfoot.

As mentioned, KNT were human gods, and as such only had humanity's wanton nature to feed on, where the Eldar actively fed the Pantheon (like how Orks feed Gork and Mork not Chaos, and Humanity feeds the Emperor with worship), they would be the weaker of the two sides. Then afternl the Fall and GC, as Eldar were decimated and Humanity on the rise, they likely grew in power and thanks to that surpassed the Eldar Gods to claim all the power.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Maximus Bitch wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
We are on topic, we're discussing the links between the Chaos and Eldar Gods, which is on topic, and the Greek gods, which explores the creation and out of universe links that reveal how the Eldar Gods relate to the wider 40k universe.

Sorry, my bad, because my question wasn't phrased well.


By "relationship", I mean the equivalent of "personal relationships" between Gods.


When Slaanesh was born, she royally fethed gak up and slaughtered most of the Eldar Gods. But before Slaanesh, there were also Tzeentch, Khorne & Nurgle. I wonder how the Eldar Gods dealt with these 3 dudes.

Ah, I see, apologies for that but a little bit of further exploration to enjoy


Given the complete lack of fluff I'd imagine they just ignored each other. Given Khorne was only formed during the middle ages, and I'd imagine Tzeentch in the Rennaisance/21st Century, and the Eldar predate dinosaur extinction, I'd say they probably didn't bother each other. In fact, given the Fall happened circa M30 or so, I'd imagine the Dark Gods lay low and bided their time, only really coming to power when the Eldar were decimated by Slaanesh. This makes sense given how they had to make a deal with the Emperor, how most Cults during the GC were restricted to planets like Laer and Cadia and not widespread, and how the Eldar were basically the dominant galactic race with a much greater pull on the Warp, I'd say Chaos was likely on the backfoot.

As mentioned, KNT were human gods, and as such only had humanity's wanton nature to feed on, where the Eldar actively fed the Pantheon (like how Orks feed Gork and Mork not Chaos, and Humanity feeds the Emperor with worship), they would be the weaker of the two sides. Then afternl the Fall and GC, as Eldar were decimated and Humanity on the rise, they likely grew in power and thanks to that surpassed the Eldar Gods to claim all the power.

Hmm, makes sense. I also mentioned Khaine & Khorne. I wonder if they duelled each other or something. What are your thoughts on the Eldar Gods and the Old Ones?

You've also gotten me thinking about Orky Daemons. If the Big 4 can each release a fragment of their power to produce a Daemon, could Gork & Mork do that as well, and then have that Orky Daemon manifest in realspace?

 Maximus Bitch wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Maximus Bitch wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
We are on topic, we're discussing the links between the Chaos and Eldar Gods, which is on topic, and the Greek gods, which explores the creation and out of universe links that reveal how the Eldar Gods relate to the wider 40k universe.

Sorry, my bad, because my question wasn't phrased well.


By "relationship", I mean the equivalent of "personal relationships" between Gods.


When Slaanesh was born, she royally fethed gak up and slaughtered most of the Eldar Gods. But before Slaanesh, there were also Tzeentch, Khorne & Nurgle. I wonder how the Eldar Gods dealt with these 3 dudes.

Ah, I see, apologies for that but a little bit of further exploration to enjoy


Given the complete lack of fluff I'd imagine they just ignored each other. Given Khorne was only formed during the middle ages, and I'd imagine Tzeentch in the Rennaisance/21st Century, and the Eldar predate dinosaur extinction, I'd say they probably didn't bother each other. In fact, given the Fall happened circa M30 or so, I'd imagine the Dark Gods lay low and bided their time, only really coming to power when the Eldar were decimated by Slaanesh. This makes sense given how they had to make a deal with the Emperor, how most Cults during the GC were restricted to planets like Laer and Cadia and not widespread, and how the Eldar were basically the dominant galactic race with a much greater pull on the Warp, I'd say Chaos was likely on the backfoot.

As mentioned, KNT were human gods, and as such only had humanity's wanton nature to feed on, where the Eldar actively fed the Pantheon (like how Orks feed Gork and Mork not Chaos, and Humanity feeds the Emperor with worship), they would be the weaker of the two sides. Then afternl the Fall and GC, as Eldar were decimated and Humanity on the rise, they likely grew in power and thanks to that surpassed the Eldar Gods to claim all the power.

Hmm, makes sense. I also mentioned Khaine & Khorne. I wonder if they duelled each other or something. What are your thoughts on the Eldar Gods and the Old Ones?

You've also gotten me thinking about Orky Daemons. If the Big 4 can each release a fragment of their power to produce a Daemon, could Gork & Mork do that as well, and then have that Orky Daemon manifest in realspace?

I do recall reading an in-universe theory that Orks just appear from the Warp fully formed and grown. Could be an argument and in fact there are great similarities between Orks and Daemons.

For example, in Know No Fear, the Ultramarines find the only way to fight Daemons was with "symbolic" weapons like swords and fire, as bolter and plasma was ineffective, due to their nature as metaphorical and metaphysical beings. Orks on the other hand need to be burned after death to prevent spores forming.
Furthermore, Daemons have the power to alter reality around themselves, reshaping and fething it up just by being there. Orks have their gestalt field that alters reality to their whim (although debated).
As for whether GM could do so, I wouldn't think they would if they could. They already can krump any other god with ease, so don't need Warp entity followers, and they're main collection of followers already exist in realspace. They probably can do so, but have no need.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Maximus Bitch wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Maximus Bitch wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
We are on topic, we're discussing the links between the Chaos and Eldar Gods, which is on topic, and the Greek gods, which explores the creation and out of universe links that reveal how the Eldar Gods relate to the wider 40k universe.

Sorry, my bad, because my question wasn't phrased well.


By "relationship", I mean the equivalent of "personal relationships" between Gods.


When Slaanesh was born, she royally fethed gak up and slaughtered most of the Eldar Gods. But before Slaanesh, there were also Tzeentch, Khorne & Nurgle. I wonder how the Eldar Gods dealt with these 3 dudes.

Ah, I see, apologies for that but a little bit of further exploration to enjoy


Given the complete lack of fluff I'd imagine they just ignored each other. Given Khorne was only formed during the middle ages, and I'd imagine Tzeentch in the Rennaisance/21st Century, and the Eldar predate dinosaur extinction, I'd say they probably didn't bother each other. In fact, given the Fall happened circa M30 or so, I'd imagine the Dark Gods lay low and bided their time, only really coming to power when the Eldar were decimated by Slaanesh. This makes sense given how they had to make a deal with the Emperor, how most Cults during the GC were restricted to planets like Laer and Cadia and not widespread, and how the Eldar were basically the dominant galactic race with a much greater pull on the Warp, I'd say Chaos was likely on the backfoot.

As mentioned, KNT were human gods, and as such only had humanity's wanton nature to feed on, where the Eldar actively fed the Pantheon (like how Orks feed Gork and Mork not Chaos, and Humanity feeds the Emperor with worship), they would be the weaker of the two sides. Then afternl the Fall and GC, as Eldar were decimated and Humanity on the rise, they likely grew in power and thanks to that surpassed the Eldar Gods to claim all the power.

Hmm, makes sense. I also mentioned Khaine & Khorne. I wonder if they duelled each other or something. What are your thoughts on the Eldar Gods and the Old Ones?

You've also gotten me thinking about Orky Daemons. If the Big 4 can each release a fragment of their power to produce a Daemon, could Gork & Mork do that as well, and then have that Orky Daemon manifest in realspace?

I do recall reading an in-universe theory that Orks just appear from the Warp fully formed and grown. Could be an argument and in fact there are great similarities between Orks and Daemons.

For example, in Know No Fear, the Ultramarines find the only way to fight Daemons was with "symbolic" weapons like swords and fire, as bolter and plasma was ineffective, due to their nature as metaphorical and metaphysical beings. Orks on the other hand need to be burned after death to prevent spores forming.
Furthermore, Daemons have the power to alter reality around themselves, reshaping and fething it up just by being there. Orks have their gestalt field that alters reality to their whim (although debated).
As for whether GM could do so, I wouldn't think they would if they could. They already can krump any other god with ease, so don't need Warp entity followers, and they're main collection of followers already exist in realspace. They probably can do so, but have no need.

don't Orks pop out from the ground? Like the Uruk Hai in LOTR.

I found that "symbolic" weapon stuff in Know No Fear very silly, even by 40K standards. Plasma's like fire, Bolters have fire, they are weapons just like swords. The coolest thing about 40K is using modern weapon against Daemons imho

But, back to the topic, it'd be cool to have some big ass Ork daemons. I miss the trolls of WHF.

 Maximus Bitch wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Maximus Bitch wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Maximus Bitch wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
We are on topic, we're discussing the links between the Chaos and Eldar Gods, which is on topic, and the Greek gods, which explores the creation and out of universe links that reveal how the Eldar Gods relate to the wider 40k universe.

Sorry, my bad, because my question wasn't phrased well.


By "relationship", I mean the equivalent of "personal relationships" between Gods.


When Slaanesh was born, she royally fethed gak up and slaughtered most of the Eldar Gods. But before Slaanesh, there were also Tzeentch, Khorne & Nurgle. I wonder how the Eldar Gods dealt with these 3 dudes.

Ah, I see, apologies for that but a little bit of further exploration to enjoy


Given the complete lack of fluff I'd imagine they just ignored each other. Given Khorne was only formed during the middle ages, and I'd imagine Tzeentch in the Rennaisance/21st Century, and the Eldar predate dinosaur extinction, I'd say they probably didn't bother each other. In fact, given the Fall happened circa M30 or so, I'd imagine the Dark Gods lay low and bided their time, only really coming to power when the Eldar were decimated by Slaanesh. This makes sense given how they had to make a deal with the Emperor, how most Cults during the GC were restricted to planets like Laer and Cadia and not widespread, and how the Eldar were basically the dominant galactic race with a much greater pull on the Warp, I'd say Chaos was likely on the backfoot.

As mentioned, KNT were human gods, and as such only had humanity's wanton nature to feed on, where the Eldar actively fed the Pantheon (like how Orks feed Gork and Mork not Chaos, and Humanity feeds the Emperor with worship), they would be the weaker of the two sides. Then afternl the Fall and GC, as Eldar were decimated and Humanity on the rise, they likely grew in power and thanks to that surpassed the Eldar Gods to claim all the power.

Hmm, makes sense. I also mentioned Khaine & Khorne. I wonder if they duelled each other or something. What are your thoughts on the Eldar Gods and the Old Ones?

You've also gotten me thinking about Orky Daemons. If the Big 4 can each release a fragment of their power to produce a Daemon, could Gork & Mork do that as well, and then have that Orky Daemon manifest in realspace?

I do recall reading an in-universe theory that Orks just appear from the Warp fully formed and grown. Could be an argument and in fact there are great similarities between Orks and Daemons.

For example, in Know No Fear, the Ultramarines find the only way to fight Daemons was with "symbolic" weapons like swords and fire, as bolter and plasma was ineffective, due to their nature as metaphorical and metaphysical beings. Orks on the other hand need to be burned after death to prevent spores forming.
Furthermore, Daemons have the power to alter reality around themselves, reshaping and fething it up just by being there. Orks have their gestalt field that alters reality to their whim (although debated).
As for whether GM could do so, I wouldn't think they would if they could. They already can krump any other god with ease, so don't need Warp entity followers, and they're main collection of followers already exist in realspace. They probably can do so, but have no need.

don't Orks pop out from the ground? Like the Uruk Hai in LOTR.

I found that "symbolic" weapon stuff in Know No Fear very silly, even by 40K standards. Plasma's like fire, Bolters have fire, they are weapons just like swords. The coolest thing about 40K is using modern weapon against Daemons imho

But, back to the topic, it'd be cool to have some big ass Ork daemons. I miss the trolls of WHF.

They come from Spores. This was an in-universe theory to try and explain how there are so goddamn many Orks.

The symbolic weapons actually makes sense given Daemons nature as dark reflections of the human conciousness through the Dark Gods. The embody the aspects that humans would expect Daemons to have, invulnerability, terrifying nature, otherworldliness. They also don't obey the laws of physics as they exist in a realm where such things don't exist. A bolter passes through them as their density doesn't exist and they are intangible, or rusts away within 2 feet of the creature. Swords and fire on the other hand have a symbolism like Daemons do, a reflection in the Warp. Plasma's plasma, but a sword is a sword. You are infinitely more badass with a sword, there's emphasis on traits like honour and heroism due to culture and history. Fire is the same. Its something primal and pure. There affect Daemons becaus of psychological influences, not logic like guns and plamsa

 Deadshot wrote:

 Maximus Bitch wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Maximus Bitch wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Maximus Bitch wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
We are on topic, we're discussing the links between the Chaos and Eldar Gods, which is on topic, and the Greek gods, which explores the creation and out of universe links that reveal how the Eldar Gods relate to the wider 40k universe.

Sorry, my bad, because my question wasn't phrased well.


By "relationship", I mean the equivalent of "personal relationships" between Gods.


When Slaanesh was born, she royally fethed gak up and slaughtered most of the Eldar Gods. But before Slaanesh, there were also Tzeentch, Khorne & Nurgle. I wonder how the Eldar Gods dealt with these 3 dudes.

Ah, I see, apologies for that but a little bit of further exploration to enjoy


Given the complete lack of fluff I'd imagine they just ignored each other. Given Khorne was only formed during the middle ages, and I'd imagine Tzeentch in the Rennaisance/21st Century, and the Eldar predate dinosaur extinction, I'd say they probably didn't bother each other. In fact, given the Fall happened circa M30 or so, I'd imagine the Dark Gods lay low and bided their time, only really coming to power when the Eldar were decimated by Slaanesh. This makes sense given how they had to make a deal with the Emperor, how most Cults during the GC were restricted to planets like Laer and Cadia and not widespread, and how the Eldar were basically the dominant galactic race with a much greater pull on the Warp, I'd say Chaos was likely on the backfoot.

As mentioned, KNT were human gods, and as such only had humanity's wanton nature to feed on, where the Eldar actively fed the Pantheon (like how Orks feed Gork and Mork not Chaos, and Humanity feeds the Emperor with worship), they would be the weaker of the two sides. Then afternl the Fall and GC, as Eldar were decimated and Humanity on the rise, they likely grew in power and thanks to that surpassed the Eldar Gods to claim all the power.

Hmm, makes sense. I also mentioned Khaine & Khorne. I wonder if they duelled each other or something. What are your thoughts on the Eldar Gods and the Old Ones?

You've also gotten me thinking about Orky Daemons. If the Big 4 can each release a fragment of their power to produce a Daemon, could Gork & Mork do that as well, and then have that Orky Daemon manifest in realspace?

I do recall reading an in-universe theory that Orks just appear from the Warp fully formed and grown. Could be an argument and in fact there are great similarities between Orks and Daemons.

For example, in Know No Fear, the Ultramarines find the only way to fight Daemons was with "symbolic" weapons like swords and fire, as bolter and plasma was ineffective, due to their nature as metaphorical and metaphysical beings. Orks on the other hand need to be burned after death to prevent spores forming.
Furthermore, Daemons have the power to alter reality around themselves, reshaping and fething it up just by being there. Orks have their gestalt field that alters reality to their whim (although debated).
As for whether GM could do so, I wouldn't think they would if they could. They already can krump any other god with ease, so don't need Warp entity followers, and they're main collection of followers already exist in realspace. They probably can do so, but have no need.

don't Orks pop out from the ground? Like the Uruk Hai in LOTR.

I found that "symbolic" weapon stuff in Know No Fear very silly, even by 40K standards. Plasma's like fire, Bolters have fire, they are weapons just like swords. The coolest thing about 40K is using modern weapon against Daemons imho

But, back to the topic, it'd be cool to have some big ass Ork daemons. I miss the trolls of WHF.

They come from Spores. This was an in-universe theory to try and explain how there are so goddamn many Orks.

The symbolic weapons actually makes sense given Daemons nature as dark reflections of the human conciousness through the Dark Gods. The embody the aspects that humans would expect Daemons to have, invulnerability, terrifying nature, otherworldliness. They also don't obey the laws of physics as they exist in a realm where such things don't exist. A bolter passes through them as their density doesn't exist and they are intangible, or rusts away within 2 feet of the creature. Swords and fire on the other hand have a symbolism like Daemons do, a reflection in the Warp. Plasma's plasma, but a sword is a sword. You are infinitely more badass with a sword, there's emphasis on traits like honour and heroism due to culture and history. Fire is the same. Its something primal and pure. There affect Daemons becaus of psychological influences, not logic like guns and plamsa

The IoM attaches so much symbolism and honor to its guns as well though. Just Abnett trying to create that atheist-magic divide.

 Maximus Bitch wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Maximus Bitch wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Maximus Bitch wrote:

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 Maximus Bitch wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
We are on topic, we're discussing the links between the Chaos and Eldar Gods, which is on topic, and the Greek gods, which explores the creation and out of universe links that reveal how the Eldar Gods relate to the wider 40k universe.

Sorry, my bad, because my question wasn't phrased well.


By "relationship", I mean the equivalent of "personal relationships" between Gods.


When Slaanesh was born, she royally fethed gak up and slaughtered most of the Eldar Gods. But before Slaanesh, there were also Tzeentch, Khorne & Nurgle. I wonder how the Eldar Gods dealt with these 3 dudes.

Ah, I see, apologies for that but a little bit of further exploration to enjoy


Given the complete lack of fluff I'd imagine they just ignored each other. Given Khorne was only formed during the middle ages, and I'd imagine Tzeentch in the Rennaisance/21st Century, and the Eldar predate dinosaur extinction, I'd say they probably didn't bother each other. In fact, given the Fall happened circa M30 or so, I'd imagine the Dark Gods lay low and bided their time, only really coming to power when the Eldar were decimated by Slaanesh. This makes sense given how they had to make a deal with the Emperor, how most Cults during the GC were restricted to planets like Laer and Cadia and not widespread, and how the Eldar were basically the dominant galactic race with a much greater pull on the Warp, I'd say Chaos was likely on the backfoot.

As mentioned, KNT were human gods, and as such only had humanity's wanton nature to feed on, where the Eldar actively fed the Pantheon (like how Orks feed Gork and Mork not Chaos, and Humanity feeds the Emperor with worship), they would be the weaker of the two sides. Then afternl the Fall and GC, as Eldar were decimated and Humanity on the rise, they likely grew in power and thanks to that surpassed the Eldar Gods to claim all the power.

Hmm, makes sense. I also mentioned Khaine & Khorne. I wonder if they duelled each other or something. What are your thoughts on the Eldar Gods and the Old Ones?

You've also gotten me thinking about Orky Daemons. If the Big 4 can each release a fragment of their power to produce a Daemon, could Gork & Mork do that as well, and then have that Orky Daemon manifest in realspace?

I do recall reading an in-universe theory that Orks just appear from the Warp fully formed and grown. Could be an argument and in fact there are great similarities between Orks and Daemons.

For example, in Know No Fear, the Ultramarines find the only way to fight Daemons was with "symbolic" weapons like swords and fire, as bolter and plasma was ineffective, due to their nature as metaphorical and metaphysical beings. Orks on the other hand need to be burned after death to prevent spores forming.
Furthermore, Daemons have the power to alter reality around themselves, reshaping and fething it up just by being there. Orks have their gestalt field that alters reality to their whim (although debated).
As for whether GM could do so, I wouldn't think they would if they could. They already can krump any other god with ease, so don't need Warp entity followers, and they're main collection of followers already exist in realspace. They probably can do so, but have no need.

don't Orks pop out from the ground? Like the Uruk Hai in LOTR.

I found that "symbolic" weapon stuff in Know No Fear very silly, even by 40K standards. Plasma's like fire, Bolters have fire, they are weapons just like swords. The coolest thing about 40K is using modern weapon against Daemons imho

But, back to the topic, it'd be cool to have some big ass Ork daemons. I miss the trolls of WHF.

They come from Spores. This was an in-universe theory to try and explain how there are so goddamn many Orks.

The symbolic weapons actually makes sense given Daemons nature as dark reflections of the human conciousness through the Dark Gods. The embody the aspects that humans would expect Daemons to have, invulnerability, terrifying nature, otherworldliness. They also don't obey the laws of physics as they exist in a realm where such things don't exist. A bolter passes through them as their density doesn't exist and they are intangible, or rusts away within 2 feet of the creature. Swords and fire on the other hand have a symbolism like Daemons do, a reflection in the Warp. Plasma's plasma, but a sword is a sword. You are infinitely more badass with a sword, there's emphasis on traits like honour and heroism due to culture and history. Fire is the same. Its something primal and pure. There affect Daemons becaus of psychological influences, not logic like guns and plamsa

The IoM attaches so much symbolism and honor to its guns as well though. Just Abnett trying to create that atheist-magic divide.

Deamons are kinda strange like that.
Look at one iron warriors book. A deamon, now a hero who they prayed to, even his bones.
They have the bones power to kill him because they thought that where holy etc.

In the warp, thought and reality are thr same.
If you think swords and fire are the weapons to kill them ernough, they are.