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I am a Daemon player and want to try fitting Magnus in a list, but I am having a hard time deciding.
Theme-wise I will not be playing "Magnus" but rather just using his rules to represent a powerful Lord of Change (similar to the 999pt FW LoC)

So the 2 lists I am torn between are here:
This list has a respectable 21+D6 Warp Charges, and the DPs all cast on 3+ while near Magnus. With the Spell familiars, it should be pretty reliable to get off spells. The only downside is the DPs themselves.
As I am a Daemon player first, I am used to using Greater Rewards and being able to roll all the powers where I want (rather than being forced to roll on the patron gods table)
I also feel like they really need the 3+ armour even though it makes them vulnerable to Grav.

This list has 25+D6 WC and is much more in my comfort zone. Not only do I get way more rolls on Malefic for an near guaranteed chance for Cursed Earth, but having a regular LoC with Robes makes a much better Warlord than anything in the first list. I can roll on the Tz WL table with a CAD re-roll. Getting +1 invul for all Daemons of Tz within 9" would be EPIC!
Add in the Blessing of Tz benefit from the Tsons CAD and all my FMCs have a really good chance at having 2++ re-rolling 1s all game. Which also means I am more comforatbel dropping the 3+ armour off the CSM DP.

So, which list is better?

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w/o kairos warp storm can kill you...you can imagine lost magnus with a bad dice on warp storm...any list i saw with Magnus runs also kairos

I'm still green on this but I would say your second list looks best and most versatile and takes advantage of army specific rules.

 blackmage wrote:
w/o kairos warp storm can kill you...you can imagine lost magnus with a bad dice on warp storm...any list i saw with Magnus runs also kairos

I've actually only run FateWeaver in like 1-2 games in the past 4 years and I've never really had any issues with the Warp Storm. Most of the time it helps me.
And Magnus does not have Instability, so the worst Warp Storm result that could affect him is -1 invul save (because the 2 & 3 results require the models to have Instability). That is hardly enough to lose Magnus over, especially since he can buff himself back up to a 3++

I wouldn't mind getting Magnus and an Omniscient Oracles formation in the same list, but I only have 2 Tz FMCs and a generic Daemon Prince model to use.
Another downside is that once FW is in the list, I'll want Grimiore in the list and a unit to cast it on, like Screamers. That's a ton of points. I don't see how all of it can fit in a list and still be Battle Forged.

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Couldn't you cast the Grimoire on Magnus?

 digital-animal wrote:
Couldn't you cast the Grimoire on Magnus?

Yes, but I feel like the risk vs reward on that isn't worth it. Magnus can get a 3++ just by casting a Blessing on himself. And even with FW's re-roll, Grimoire can still fail
But having a Screamer unit is a much bigger reward with a much lower risk (as they can still Jink with zero consequence if Grim fails)

I have a list that uses the Oracles formation, Heralds formation, Belakor and a Screamer Star with a Grimiore Herald. I just want a way to get Magnus to work in an all Daemon list (with minimum cultist troops)

omniscent oracle
kairos
LOC lev 3 the impossible robe

CAD
tz herald lev1
the masque
11 brimstone
2x10 brimstone

DP mark TZ the black mace wings
2x10 chaos cultist mark of Tz
Magnus
this is a list going fine at adepticon

Which FAQ rule set are you likely to be playing. I believe that one of them has already capped Thousand Sons at 3++ because of their blessing rule.

If I'm not mistaken the Tzeentch Princes are not forced to roll on the Tzeentch table as that is a requirement of models with the *Mark* of Tzeentch rule not the *Daemon* of Tzeentch rule.

 astro_nomicon wrote:
If I'm not mistaken the Tzeentch Princes are not forced to roll on the Tzeentch table as that is a requirement of models with the *Mark* of Tzeentch rule not the *Daemon* of Tzeentch rule.

CSM princes are required to do so because the CSM psychic section also tells Daemons of X to do so as well

 astro_nomicon wrote:
If I'm not mistaken the Tzeentch Princes are not forced to roll on the Tzeentch table as that is a requirement of models with the *Mark* of Tzeentch rule not the *Daemon* of Tzeentch rule.

Its a CSM codex rule that applies to all their psykers that follow a diety (which all DPs must do).

Correct me if I'm wrong but the warp storm wont affect list 1 as the primary detachment is CSM not daemons?

I would say list 1 is the better list. The magnus formations means the princes and anything else in range is casting on a 3+ with rerolls from familiar. That's better than casting on a 2+.

Depending on how risk adverse you are, i would consider dropping the horrors and taking the Heralds Anarchic formation in list 1 aswell, then just summon horrors and other daemons as needed.

Depends on who he chooses as the warlord. Both lists can have the Daemon CAD as primary if he wanted which means the normal warp storm table will effect them as they have the daemon rule. In additional both armies could go with the Tzeentch warp storm table which generally throws random psychic stuff around the place for every one.

i saw too much times warp storm punish demon players i wont play without fateweaver...

 blackmage wrote:
i saw too much times warp storm punish demon players i wont play without fateweaver...

But as I have said, I truly believe FW is NOT a requirement for competitive Daemons. He is more of a crutch for players who aren't that familiar with how to play Daemons.
I have been playing Daemons since they got their own codex in 5th and have my fair share of victories in competitive circles. The worst thing that has ever happened to me is losing a Khorne Herald on turn 1 to the '3' result, but I still won that game by a significant margin.
If FW had any measure of melee ability, I would change my tune immediately, but he often ends up being 300pts of too much random.

Don't get me wrong, FW is a great tool, but since you can now mitigate the Warp Storm with the Incursion Detachment or by simply taking your Warlord in a non-Daemon detachment, or even using the Tzeentch Warp Storm table which is much less risky. I feel even more justified not taking FW.
The extended Lore of Change has made him better for sure and I am not entirely opposed to fielding him, just never in a list with Magnus because FW just becomes 300pts for 4 WC and 1 re-roll. Magnus will be using most of the WC in the list, making FW kinda garbage. Or at the very least, the only 2 Psykers using WC will be Magnus and FW. I'd like a few other to be able to cast.

It is the same reason I never take FW with my Tetrad. Not only does the Tetrad NEED to have the Warlord trait (thereby taking it away from FW) but FW is a WC hog and those DPs really need the buffs. Belakor is a much better fit alongside the Tetrad

As for my lists, I am leaning heavily towards the second list. If nothing else that it has more WC and more ObSec bodies on the ground. I also wouldn't have to proxy the Princes as Tzeentch.
I own 6 FMCs that can be used as such:
1) Nurgle Prince/ GUO
2) Slaanesh Princess/ Keeper of Secrets
3) Khorne Prince/ Thirster
4) Belakor / generic Prince
5) Tzeetch Prince / Fateweaver / Lord of Change (60mm base)
6) Lord of Change / Magnus (100mm base)

So as you can see, I can have a list with 3 Tzeenth FMCs (using my Belakor model as a Tz prince), but I cannot have more than 3 without proxying (so list 1 was just a though experiment).

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He is more of a crutch for players who aren't that familiar with how to play Daemons
I m sure Nick Nanavati (best general with magnus demon list at last adepticon) and Dan Platt (overall winner with same kind of list) wont agree
when you play a piece like magnus and 3 DP do you need any other melee unit? i dont think so...

btw where can i find TZ warp storm table? tysm

Guessing both of their lists had screamers stars that use FW reroll for grimoire rather than his warlord trait for warp storm manipulation.

Tzeentch table is in the magnus book at the back with the daemons section.

 blackmage wrote:
He is more of a crutch for players who aren't that familiar with how to play Daemons
I m sure Nick Nanavati (best general with magnus demon list at last adepticon) and Dan Platt (overall winner with same kind of list) wont agree
when you play a piece like magnus and 3 DP do you need any other melee unit? i dont think so...

btw where can i find TZ warp storm table? tysm

The Tzeentch Warp Storm table is in the Wrath of Magnus book. You only need to have a Daemon of Tzeentch as your Warlord to use it.
I don't think it has results as good as the regular WS, but it also doesn't have results as bad either.

I get that FW is amazaballs for many players, he just forces a playstyle that just does not work for me. He has no versatility and MUST be played a certain way
I'll use him in an Omniscient Oracles Formation, but that is because of all the re-rolls is gives, not for FW alone. And I don't have the models to run FW, a LoC AND Magnus at the same time.

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 Galef wrote:

The Tzeentch Warp Storm table is in the Wrath of Magnus book. You only need to have a Daemon of Tzeentch as your Warlord to use it.
I don't think it has results as good as the regular WS, but it also doesn't have results as bad either.

I get that FW is amazaballs for many players, he just forces a playstyle that just does not work for me. He has no versatility and MUST be played a certain way
I'll use him in an Omniscient Oracles Formation, but that is because of all the re-rolls is gives, not for FW alone. And I don't have the models to run FW, a LoC AND Magnus at the same time.

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I don´t know about that many good results!

You can do D3 wounds to a random character no saves allowed.
Turn your opponents magnus into a LoC for you (or just remove it from the board) or turn your herald in to a LoC. (your choice)
Cast psychic powers on 3s
reduce casting values by 1 (but peril if you fail)
gain D3 rerolls for the turn

They have some lovely ones on there and few negatives as they generally target non daemons only.

Here's the jist of the Tz Warp Storm copy/pasted from 4-chan:

Thats a pretty fair run down of how I feel about them aswell. Playing a tournament in a few weeks in UK an the TO has said that with FW as my warlord I can choose game by game which warp storm I can use. It really helps when against daemons that I can choose the normal one but against most other people and magnus I can roll on that one with the hope of getting him removed from the table with a lucky 12.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To mitigate a nasty roll of 12 against non daemons I will summon a unit of horrors second only to cursed earth in my first psychic phase. Don´t want to have to choose FW or my LoC otherwise.

I know you've already decided against it, but Fateweaver would be better than the LoC HQ.

ML4, All Change Spells, all the other spells, he's simply an infinitely better gunboat than a LoC, and costs essentially the same once you've kitted out a LoC.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I know you've already decided against it, but Fateweaver would be better than the LoC HQ.

ML4, All Change Spells, all the other spells, he's simply an infinitely better gunboat than a LoC, and costs essentially the same once you've kitted out a LoC.

absolutely right, FW power is not just the re roll or warp storm manipulation but the fact he knows 10 spells and all Tz sphere, always nice shoot that D bolt at something annoying or summon those pesky exalted on chariot

 blackmage wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I know you've already decided against it, but Fateweaver would be better than the LoC HQ.

ML4, All Change Spells, all the other spells, he's simply an infinitely better gunboat than a LoC, and costs essentially the same once you've kitted out a LoC.

absolutely right, FW power is not just the re roll or warp storm manipulation but the fact he knows 10 spells and all Tz sphere, always nice shoot that D bolt at something annoying or summon those pesky exalted on chariot

But I don't want a better gunboat, I have Magnus for that. I want a better beatstick (that is also versatile). And a kitted out LoC is way better at that than either FW or a Tz DP.
A robed LoC is likely to be rocking a 2++, without having to fit Grimiore in the list and it gets 3 rolls on Malefic, thus a higher chance for Cursed Earth, Incursion or Sacrifice.
A LoC may not be able to "magic" as well as FW, but he is still pretty good at it and is a much bigger threat than FW, especially with all the null-psychic stuff coming out.
In my meta, durability is king and FW just doesn't have that.

I might be pressured to squeeze FW into a hard core tourney list with Magnus, but I would NEVER trade a LoC for FW.
Magnus has all those same powers as FW, yet can cast on 2+. For me is will always be Magnus or FW, but not both. And Magnus just wins in that contest.

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Saying it's "a much bigger threat" than FW does not make it so.

If you want to use it due to personal opinion, that's fine. It just isn't the best choice.

A LoC with Robes is a fine model, but it is not as good as FW, and can be one shot to a single unlucky wound if it fails a leadership check.

Make your own choice, recognizing it is a worse choice you're making due to personal decision is important, instead of trying to tell others it's better, when it is not.

Magnus has access to all the powers, and casts on a 2+, for sure. However, it's a force MULTIPLIER to have additional units that also have access to the same spells, allowing you to make use of your better, more important spells more often.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I can already tell based on your previous replies that you're going to continue to disagree, which is fine.

Play how you wish.

You can say "I want a melee unit, and am deciding to use a LOC for fluff reasons", but that is not the same as "I'm using a great melee unit for melee reasons", because what you're actually saying is "I am paying 280ish points for a t6, 5w model that I need to land to melee with, and could then likely die that turn to bolters if i'm not lucky".

A LoC with Robes is a fine model, but it is not as good as FW, and can be one shot to a single unlucky wound if it fails a leadership check.


that is another reason why FW rocks, you fail a leadership with a robed LOC well you can re roll a dice and probably pass it...there is a reaso if pratically every demon list play FW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 blackmage wrote:
A LoC with Robes is a fine model, but it is not as good as FW, and can be one shot to a single unlucky wound if it fails a leadership check.

that is another reason why FW rocks, you fail a leadership with a robed LOC well you can re roll a dice and probably pass it...there is a reaso if pratically every demon list play FW
btw next tournament i cant play Magnus (max 500pts model playable) so i ll play oracles+herald anarchy+CAD with belakor and blue horrors about 23CW fast and durable.

I will gladly concede that FW is the best choice...for what he does. Which is being a model that must cast powers to be useful. That isn't always something that is reliable, even if it is very powerful.
But he is not "the best choice period, no exceptions". It does not matter that I am in the minority here. It is the way I feel and I will not "accept that I am choosing the inferior choice for fluff reasons".
You also must remember that I played back when you could cast ALL your powers as long as you passed the LD test. The change to 7th effectively halved the powers you can cast per turn and that has left a bad taste in my mouth and forever flavored what units I consider "the best".
I always ask myself during list building "If I am unsuccessful at casting any powers at all for even 1 turn, would my list still do ok?" FW doesn't always make that answer a 'yes', but a LoC does.

I have always felt the LoC is a better all-round choice and that FW has only become an appealing choice due to the expanded Change Lore and Oracles formation.
And I have been proven correct (at least to my own satisfaction) in the dozens of competitive games I have played over the years

Speaking of, what do you think is better ***if you had to chose*** Between a list with Magnus, or a list with the Oracles?
I'd probably go with the Oracles and field a similar list what Blackmage just described
Like this:



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quite close to mine i just play 3x11 blue horrors and i give to one herald the locus of metamophosis (kinda useful into a large formation 9 screamers+3 heralds) and locus of conjuration, plus just one exalted, im short of 25 point like that
28 WC good melee tons of tricks and summon power, fast and durable, i like this list and i will play at my next tournament april 30th, I guess after the Magnus list this one gets a similar power.

Nick Nanavati just brought the screamer star back to the top. Undefeated at adepticon with a DOUBLE Screamer Star lol.

Fatey
Be'Lakor

3x 10 Brimstones

8 Screamers
7 Screamers

Heralds Anarchic

5x Heralds all ML3 one each with Paradox, Oracular Dais, It will not Die locus, and Grimoire

Worth noting adepticon has un-nerfed invis though, yeah?

Makes Be'Lakor better in that format as a result.