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Any tips or tricks from those who have used this formation?
I assume it's best with Daemon Princes rather that E-Sorcerers.

What do you put on them? I would assume wings, armour and spell familiar at the very least (and the ML3 is required)
What powers do you roll? Rolling on Malefic until you get Curse Earth seems mandatory. Maybe Telepathy and Biomancy after that?

What do you add to a list after the War Sect?
I am thinking of using a Disc Herald with some Blue Horrors. I would make the Herald the WL and try to roll the +1 invul trait for all Tz Daemons in 9"
Even though this would make the list use the Warp Storm, the Tzeentch WS is actually pretty good.

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With regard to the Daemons: I'd give your Herald some Screamers or Flamers to fly with, if you're investing in mobility for your WL and intend to get them a support Trait then a T2 Infantry unit seems like a ball and chain.

Definitely recommend the Warpflame Host, all of the units are strong and for a nine unit formation it's very affordable.

Telepathy's not bad, if you Summon a Nurgle Herald with Sacrifice and give them the bell of -1Ld for the enemy army then three of it's powers will benefit. (And the Sacrifice can pop a Horror to create a wee WC battery unit)

Biomancy is good for making a CC monster but if you can go Invisible and get a re-rollable 2++ (using the polytheist Incursion formation) then the only thing you really have to fear is Guilliman.

What toys you got in mind for the WL Herald? I'm a fan of the tome of knowing every spell and the locus of stronger witchfire, myself.

 lindsay40k wrote:
With regard to the Daemons: I'd give your Herald some Screamers or Flamers to fly with, if you're investing in mobility for your WL and intend to get them a support Trait then a T2 Infantry unit seems like a ball and chain.

Definitely recommend the Warpflame Host, all of the units are strong and for a nine unit formation it's very affordable.

The Rehati Warsect with 3 kitted out DPs and Magnus is over 1500pts. So adding a big enough unit of Screamers to the list is not possilble, much less the Warpflame host.

 lindsay40k wrote:

What toys you got in mind for the WL Herald? I'm a fan of the tome of knowing every spell and the locus of stronger witchfire, myself.

Ideally, I want him to be ML3, which means he cannot use that Tome. Your WL must roll all his spells on Change, which means he'd have to be ML1, or taken as part of an Incursion detachment (see above comment) in order to be able to roll all his powers on Change .
Having Magnus in the list and all the Horrors that I can summon will be more than I need of the Change lore.
My Herald would be ML3 with Disc & Paradox. If I do roll the +1 invul trait, I will be looking to summon some Screamers (or Flamers from Magnus) for him to join and keep up with the FMCs, but it should be easy enough for keep all the FMCs in range of him on turn 1.

If he doesn't roll the +1 trait or Cursed Earth, then there is no need for him to keep up with the FMCs and he will be fine to hide in the backfield with the Horrors, summoning more Horrors to join.

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I run a War Sect having Magnus, 2 Flying DP, and 3 Exalted Sorcerers all with Spell Familures. This comes in at 1830 pts, which usually leaves me 20 points to try out different options.

the Daemon Princes are used for Summoning, and the Exhalted Sorcerers are used for whatever support I'm feeling that day. Sometimes I'll try and get Invisibility, others I just got straight Txeentch for unit blasting fun.

The problem people have with this army is two fold. One, unless they can kill Magnus before I get my first turn, he's not going to die. I usually keep a daemon Prince near him (which ever one got Cursed Earth), and then either fly him around or put invisibility on him. Needing a 6 to hit him and have a 2+ rerollable invulnerable save pretty much shuts down your opponents desire to even try and kill him.

The other problem when dealing with this army, is that it really does have such a low model count, its easy to hide your models out of LoS during deployment, and even when the Sorcerers are being shot at, they still take some time to kill. Keeping them close to Magnus means they draw LoS on anything for Psychic powers. This means they can ususally stay hidden pretty well and still cast.

By turn 2 or 3, I usualy have so many summoned units on the table, the game is mine, it's just a matter of time. Horrors help with warp charges, and putting bodies out there to block LoS, Screamers are great for dealing with tanks and harder units, Flamers and Exhalted Flamers deal with hoards nicely, and Heralds just make summoning matters worse. I end up running out of models to put on the table if the game ever get's to turn 4.

Yeah, I only have 1 Burning Chariot and 6 Flamers, so I'll probably have to put them in situations where they might die so I can summon them again. Magnus summoning on 2+ is awesome

So... the DP...

You roll once for Tz, then roll Malefic to get Cursed Earth... if not, take summoning?

For the 3rd power, what do you roll on? Telepathy for Shriek? Or, the new powers??

I'm intrigued with Maggie, 2x Esorc and 2x DP....

I was thinink roll each DP 1 at a time.
1st DP rolls Tz then 2 from Malefic. If CE is acquired from either roll, the next DP can go BIomancy or Telepathy.

 Galef wrote:
I was thinink roll each DP 1 at a time.
1st DP rolls Tz then 2 from Malefic. If CE is acquired from either roll, the next DP can go BIomancy or Telepathy.

That's a good idea.

In a weird way, this demon/Esorc list idea may "play faster" since the initial model counts is low. Summoning things that you'd only need as the game progresses.

The key, as Ravingbantha mentioned, is surviving a turn if you don't go first...

I'd try to fit in a VSG or something like this if possible. (not sure if viable in an 1850 list tho).

Curious, I've been watching a few of these threads related to this. You mention having to roll one time on the Tz table, is this a requirement? Am I missing something?

The way I read it is that you would get the Primaris from your chosen Discipline due to Chaos Focus, you can roll on the discipline you'd like and if you rolled from the same you would get the primaris for that?

So essentially a Tz Daemon Prince ML 3 would have 5 powers potentially. Am I reading it wrong?

I follow most of these Tz threads to see what I can learn. I know the forums aren't a substitution for the rulebook so if you have a page number that would be helpful too. I had a blast my first game playing Tz but I found it funny having to sort through four different books.

Also I like the idea of using a Rehati War Sect with DP's. Seems to be the most efficient way to get Magnus on the board though it feels like no matter what you do if you're bringing Magnus your model count is going to hurt.

 digital-animal wrote:
Curious, I've been watching a few of these threads related to this. You mention having to roll one time on the Tz table, is this a requirement? Am I missing something?

The way I read it is that you would get the Primaris from your chosen Discipline due to Chaos Focus, you can roll on the discipline you'd like and if you rolled from the same you would get the primaris for that?

So essentially a Tz Daemon Prince ML 3 would have 5 powers potentially. Am I reading it wrong?

I follow most of these Tz threads to see what I can learn. I know the forums aren't a substitution for the rulebook so if you have a page number that would be helpful too. I had a blast my first game playing Tz but I found it funny having to sort through four different books.

Also I like the idea of using a Rehati War Sect with DP's. Seems to be the most efficient way to get Magnus on the board though it feels like no matter what you do if you're bringing Magnus your model count is going to hurt.

Sadly CSM faction Psykers must actually roll 1 power on their patron's lore. That means they can never have Psychic focus. And normally they can only roll up to half the powers of their Patron
They'll always have 2 powers from Tz (1 roll, 1 Chaos Focus) and 2 powers from another discipline.

Tsons Psykers can roll all their power on Tz if they want (but why?) however that will still only mean 4 powers tops.

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 Galef wrote:
Yeah, I only have 1 Burning Chariot and 6 Flamers, so I'll probably have to put them in situations where they might die so I can summon them again. Magnus summoning on 2+ is awesome

There is still no official FaQ on this issue, but the general consensus is that Magnus only has the powers of 'Change' and 'Tzeentch' plus 'The Gaze of Magnus'. He doesn't have the ability to generate powers from any other source. Which means that the only power he has that allows him to summon is 'Boon of Flame' from the 'Change' Discipline. Given that's all you have the models for, it should be fine.

 lindsay40k wrote:

..............

Biomancy is good for making a CC monster but if you can go Invisible and get a re-rollable 2++ (using the polytheist Incursion formation) then the only thing you really have to fear is Guilliman.

What toys you got in mind for the WL Herald? I'm a fan of the tome of knowing every spell and the locus of stronger witchfire, myself.

Why you have to fear Guilliman? You can just keep flying and StrD anything to death. Guillium can do nothing against FMC.

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:

..............

Biomancy is good for making a CC monster but if you can go Invisible and get a re-rollable 2++ (using the polytheist Incursion formation) then the only thing you really have to fear is Guilliman.

What toys you got in mind for the WL Herald? I'm a fan of the tome of knowing every spell and the locus of stronger witchfire, myself.

Why you have to fear Guilliman? You can just keep flying and StrD anything to death. Guillium can do nothing against FMC.

Indeed, and the fact that Magnus refuse to come down and fight him is the proof that he is very afraid indeed of the Sword that is perfectly fine with only hitting on 6's because that's the hits that are going to smash through 2+++

Back to tactica. I'm not convinced that it's a good idea to stop rolling Malefic spells when you get one guy with Cursed Earth. I mean, that's, what, a single 6 your opponent has to roll on their Warp Charge to bring your save back down to 4++ before taking their shots and swinging their blows?

Seems to me that, with a low model count both demanding that you get Conjurations out in short order, and also giving your opponent a pretty clear target priority for their heavy weapons, there's a strong argument to heavily invest in Daemonology.

 lindsay40k wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:

..............

Biomancy is good for making a CC monster but if you can go Invisible and get a re-rollable 2++ (using the polytheist Incursion formation) then the only thing you really have to fear is Guilliman.

What toys you got in mind for the WL Herald? I'm a fan of the tome of knowing every spell and the locus of stronger witchfire, myself.

Why you have to fear Guilliman? You can just keep flying and StrD anything to death. Guillium can do nothing against FMC.

Indeed, and the fact that Magnus refuse to come down and fight him is the proof that he is very afraid indeed of the Sword that is perfectly fine with only hitting on 6's because that's the hits that are going to smash through 2+++

Back to tactica. I'm not convinced that it's a good idea to stop rolling Malefic spells when you get one guy with Cursed Earth. I mean, that's, what, a single 6 your opponent has to roll on their Warp Charge to bring your save back down to 4++ before taking their shots and swinging their blows?

Seems to me that, with a low model count both demanding that you get Conjurations out in short order, and also giving your opponent a pretty clear target priority for their heavy weapons, there's a strong argument to heavily invest in Daemonology.

Guilliman may blow through Magnus' armor, but it's fairly easy to get Magnus a 2+ invulnerable save, and since he's a Daemon of Tzeentch, it becomes rerollable.

Invisibility doesn't matter. 2+++ doesn't matter. If Guilliman rolls a 6 to hit, it's a Destroyer hit. If that rolls a 6 to wound, it smashes D6 + 6 wounds and disallows the invulnerable save. With PE and 6A, he's getting 1.17 D hits every round, and they have a 19.4% chance of rolling a 6 to wound. Does Magnus have FNP? Because if not, that's a 23% chance of Grandad Smurf killing him, every round.

In return, Magnus gets three hits, 2.5w, 0.83 not saved, 0.56 not FNP'd. He can barely outpace Roboute's IWND. Charge him on turn one, dodge every blow, and you still won't kill him in seven full turns.

Be afraid of him. Be very, very afraid of him. Stay in the air and do not come down until he is ash, or sufficiently softened up that Magnus can down him before he strikes (which you won't without HEAVY buffs). If you must duel him (which you should never ever do ever), get a Biomancer buddy to give you FNP - in fact, I suspect this would be more effective than Invisibility, as it will give you a MODERATE chance of surviving the FIRST killer blow.

Underestimate him at your peril.

Me thinks someone needs to take a long hard look at their math...also, feel no pain is nullified by destroyer hits.

Whoops, I missed that. Not a lot of FNP or D in my meta and I've not seen the two clash. Okay, Magnus is dead meat if Guilliman gets within slapping distance, regardless of what buffs he can get. Unless you could show me where there's an error in my maths?

I'm not familiar with Guilli's rules...but if I underatand right he has 6 attacks, any 6 to hit results in a strength D hit, right? A six followed by another 6 is a 1/36 chance...so 6 chances at that would be 1/6, or roughly 17% chance of Guilli gibbing Magnus in one round.

Ultimately I agree though...Magnus has no business fighting Guilli...or anyone with the possibility of putting out D strength hits.

That's all correct, but you also have to factor in Preferred Enemy: Chaos. Guilliman is re-rolling 1's to hit and to wound throughout this duel.

This means that each of his 6 attacks have a 7/36 chance of hitting an Invisible Chaotic foe; 1/6 score a natural 6, 1/6 score a natural one and 1/6 of those re-roll to a 6. 7/36 = 0.1944; x 6 attacks = 1.166 hits in each round. Each of his hits also has a 7/36 chance of rolling a killing blow; 1.166 (number of hits) x 0.1944 (chance of hit being KB) = 0.2268. So, when you take into account his re-rolls, Guilliman has a 23% chance of getting *at least* one hit that will smash *at least* 7W past every defence Magnus can possibly conjure up.

Hit him with D nukes and Psychic Shrieks until he's a just greasy stain. And even then, be prepared to do it again the next turn.

That's fair. I didn't factor in PE.

Think I'd skip Shriek myself. Guilli is LD 10 and it can't be modified right? So on average it won't do any wounds to him. Does he have an invuln save? Without Fateweaver to swing the 3d6 into your favor I think you're better off just sending D his way.

Oh yeah, definitely focus on D. Shriek is a gamble but even with perfect Ld it's still kind of like a Str 6 AP1 that does D3W, for a Primaris that's not a terrible backup for a Sorcerer to throw down when Magnus has thrown everything at him and he's still standing. If the 3D6 rolls moderately high, then that's a lot of invulns he's got to make.