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https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rgdgaming/plastic-injection-mold-for-32mm-fantasy-faun-minia/comments

Saw a cool project on Kickstarter. I am not affiliated with it but am backing it.


This project is designed to fund the production of a plastic injection mold, which will enable us to mass produce 32mm fantasy table top fauns.

Summary

After rgdgaming's first initial production runs with the Ghoul King and the Minotaur Brute, we wanted to create our first ten man box set, featuring our faun renders in plastic.

Our goal is to provide a ten man box set so players have the option to field tribal archers, javelin throwers, and miscellaneous warriors using fauns.


Initial Sketches of Fauns Initial Sketches of Fauns

Based off our sketches, our renderer proposed that we use a 3 in 1 pose for the torso, which allows the faun to be armed with a bow, a javelin, or a sword and shield. We initially played with the idea of rocks underneath, but for the convenience of the player we eliminated them. We loosely based the fauns off the idea of thracians, whom were valued for their skirmish warfare.

Faun Faun



Faun without Rock Faun without Rock

The project was promising, but we knew that modelers would eventually want a variety of options to choose from. We started with some different heads and a female counterpart. This led to some sketches below.

Faun Add Ons Faun Add Ons

Females are sorely under represented in many tribal type armies, so we tried to combine huntress concepts, such as the cloth along the thighs, longer hair, and agile frame. We are looking for multiple head types to go with the torso, and a new female torso to match the male counterpart and weapons

Proposal for the Sprue

We have been given multiple quotes for the .CAD design and we have two options: a simple sprue featuring two torsos, with all the options for bow, javelins, shield, heads and accessories for around $200-$300 designed, or we can try one sprue with ten times the amount of accessories for around 2k. The larger we make the design, the more we have to account for the mold design. One sprue with ten models would be ideal.

Who are We Making These For?

The faun box set is intended to offer Kings of War players the ability to field tribal archers and javelin throwers for their Herd army. Though the other is the apparent lack of faun miniatures on the market.

We wanted to open up an opportunity later for a new box set, which would allow the fauns to adapt the thracian Rhomphaia, the miniature version of the deadly falx. With the lack of armor they would make an ideal spirit walker. Put this together, and you have an incredible table top army in the works.

How are These Being Made?

When weighing resin vs plastic we had to pick and choose the option that allows us to provide a great model set at a price that people appreciate. Resin is cheaper to make a mold for, but costs several times more material wise than ABS plastic for example. So we decided to shoot for an injection mold.

Injection molds allow machines to make plastic impressions at a rate that is far faster than resin casting. As a result, it is far less labor intensive. This makes it relatively cheap to use no matter which country you enlist to make the product
• To design the mold blue print, we are enlisting a .cad designer from http://camppixel.com/.
• To make the injection mold and miniatures, we are working with http://www.kamings.com/ (has done work with previous kickstarters, and work for our minotaurs)
• A professional renderer and 3D sculptor.

To avoid wasting the funds on a bad mold, we will be testing the .cad design with a rapid prototype in the US, giving us a good clue to the viability of the sprue. From here we can refine the mold.

What Do We Need?

$2900-$4000 for the mold

$200-$2000 for the .cad design

$500-$800 for the option of extra bits, heads, and torsos

Cost of materials and shipping of the product will be handled by RGD GAMING LLC to satisfy the minimum order needed to make this project happen.

What Do You Get?

For a $1 or $5 contribution

Personal credit will be given in this products production

For a $25 contribution

1 10 Model Faun Box Set (Retail SRP 34.99) (separate shipping and handling applies).

For a $50 contribution

3, 10 Model Faun Box Set (separate shipping and handling applies).

For a $100 Contribution

6, 10 model Faun box set (separate shipping and handling applies).

Availability of Shipping

If we can mail it, we will try for you, whether you are in Canada, or Cambodia. Do note that postal performance varies from country to country and tracking may not be available for lower end shipping. Customs may be required.

Mainland US and territories $6

Canada $16

Europe and rest of the world

Per Quote

Timeline

A realistic estimate is somewhere between 4-6 months. We have cut down the time it takes with our initial renders, but we have to take into account production time of models, changes, and revisions of the mold. There will also be the communications and forwarding of shipments.




Risks and challenges

Our biggest challenge is funding the initial plastic injection mold for this project. Plastic injection molds are cheaper than steel molds but offer comparable precision, is ideal for mass production, and pairs well with plastic models. Resin offers cheaper molding opportunities, but is not ideal on a cost per model basis.

What we have done to make this project relatively easy is carefully vetting companies and partners for quality. As a result, we have many of the crucial elements a wargaming company needs.

A concept artist
A professional 3D sculptor (for the renders)
A .CAD designer (blue print for the mold)
A production company who can make the injection mold and produce the miniatures
Initial renders and sketches paid for in advance
Most importantly, a retail company who is dedicated to timely results

To insure funds for the mold are not squandered, we will be prototyping the .cad files with local production companies, before green lighting the injection mold. The process is cheap and offers a quick turn around (5-7 days).

We estimate the project will take 4-6 months to allow time for the design and production of the mold, add ons for the miniature sprue and shipping from mainland china to the US. From here we can label and ship products from the United States. A lot of the time will be cut down because of the initial time and investment we have already committed toward the faun project.

Pics from the kickstarter page and first update

Ah Fauns meaning Satyrs.

Did anyone other than CS Lewis ever call them Fauns?

Spanish for them is Fauna I believe....so yeah I think that exists in a few other places. Not sure though.

Well, (take this for what its worth) Wikipedia says Satyr is Greek and Faun is Roman. I always thought fauns were female Satyrs.

I asked about armor/clothing/weapon themes in the comments and the creator said "The background of the fauns is loosely based off of tribal concepts of the thracians. They were known to use light armor elements so they could run fast, hence you will see wicker shields (other concepts use animal fur for shields). As was the area, you will see javelins, spears, bows, and the rhomphaia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhomphaia). The females sport a small close combat knife on the leg.

Females are not a stretch goal, we are adding them with the male counterpart pose so we can interchangeably swap out the parts. My job here is to vary them enough so people don't just see one pose.

We have an artist working up concepts for everyone as we speak."

EDIT:- Never mind, figured out I was just being dumb.

This is really neat.

Oh man now I'm sad they never made more Narnia movies.

Females made me pledge! We will see how it goes!

A minotaur was added for free to everyone at $25 or over.

Assuming a discounted value of $10 for the minotaur, the $50 level gives you 3 boxes at basically $13.33 each. That is a super value. $1.33 per beastman. I am surprised people aren't jumping in by the fistful...

Here is a pic of the minotaur and some more concept art of the Beastmen.

another pic of the minotaur

 Smokestack wrote:
I am surprised people aren't jumping in by the fistful...

Personally, while I like the designs, I'm leery of a company I don't know promising cheap plastic kits.

Fair enough. I don't really know them either so wont say "they are the greatest and will definitely fufill and everything will be wonderful." I did that once with Torn Armor.. and that turned out... well...

They do have a website. http://rgdgaming.com/ The minotaur and a Ghoul king were made and are on pre-order.

I am in for $50. Its not a huge amount, so the risk is kind of mitigated. Plus I want to see more little companies like this succeed and have a billion kits like this spring up.

 Nostromodamus wrote:

 Smokestack wrote:
I am surprised people aren't jumping in by the fistful...

Personally, while I like the designs, I'm leery of a company I don't know promising cheap plastic kits.

That's ok. I would rather prove our company's worth through action, instead of empty promises. Though nothing about the project is cheap. The reason we can offer them at a respectable level is that we are using the economy of scale through a chinese manufacturer. What costs the most is the intelligence required to manufacture these models. One man has to make sure the parts line up, another has to put those parts into another software to accommodate the design, and another team has to make the bulky frame so they can pour the plastic into it. After that cost of materials is fairly low.

Hello RD. I love the designs, hope you'll get these guys and gals done. There's a real lack of modern beastmen-type creatures on the market.

It's a great touch to have them take artistic cues from the real-life Thracian (and Dacian?) culture (will we see a Spartacus-esque (Faunacus?) hero perhaps ). Would look pretty cool to have a fantasy-historical mashup of an army of these versus a roman army.

Good to see you here to answer some questions.

What kind of plastics are we talking about here? Is it the same kind of HIPS used in kits by GW, Rendera etc? It sounds like you're planning to cast in-house but I though injection molding plastic required a large million dollar monster of a maching. (The reason for why a lot of companies have their plastic kits made through Rendera)

If it is the HIPS, hard plastic variety, $7K looks like a rather low estimate to me. I've heard quotes of around $20K for a HIPS kit coming from other manufacturers. (Although that 's probably for two or more sprues for a kit so I could see it being cheaper if you're going for just one)

Good questions Zywus, but just to note, he specifically said they'd be made in China.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Good questions Zywus, but just to note, he specifically said they'd be made in China.

I initially read it as the molds were to be made in China but that the actual casting were to be done in-house by rgdgaming, but as I re-read it you're probably correct and the whole production will be done in China

In that case, be vary careful with quality control and mis-communications RD. I'm sure you're aware of some of the cautionary tales of companies doing business in China. Like the infamous Mantic Goblins and men-at-arms.

Make sure that you're not put in a position where you've paid all the money and get presented with the sprues "fait-accomply" only to realize they're all messed up because someone didn't convert the CAD files properly and have no leverage to demand a re-do. It's my impression (without being a insider of any kind) that you can get quality work done in the chinese casting facilities, but there can sometimes be a somewhat lackadaisical attitude to quality control unless the contractee takes a hands on approach and is very clear on specifications.

My favorite China story is when Void did their plastics around 2002 or so they sent the 3 ups and...

The factory made some nice 75mm models for them.

January 2018 for estimated delivery?

With a Chinese factory that you've never done business with before?

You know that January delivery to backers means you need to be SENDING them in December/January. Which means they need to be in hand with you in December. Probably before Christmas/New Years assuming you'll take at least a week of to spend time with your families.

Which in turn means the sprues need to be sent from China in late October/Early November (being very optimistic), and even that allows for no time to clear customs?

Your campaign had 36 days to go. It's now April 24, so the campaign will complete at the very end of May. You do know that Kickstarter can take a good 30 days to pass the money onto creators, don't you? So let's say July 1st you get the cash in hand.

So between July 1st (approx) and Mid October (3.5 months) you're going to get a production slot with a quality manufacturer, QA prototypes, and have full production and shipping in China completed ready to freight to your offices in Washington?

You're setting yourselves up for huge failure and backer disappointment there. While the renders look nice, and I applaud your ambition, you clearly have not done your homework and looked at other companies trials and tribulations and time blowouts. Mantic aren't huge, but they're a decent size now and they've got a hell of a lot more Kickstarter experience, and yet they still struggle to get their plastic kits made with any quality.

You're also using the "nation-friendly shipping" badges incorrectly. They're used by companies to denote that their project backers will not be getting charged any additional taxes (VAT, GST) as the items will be shipping from local hubs, so they will not be hit by additional costs at the border. I'll assume a complete lack of malicious intent there, but it points to more inexperience with how Kickstarter actually works and is a further red flag to backing this project.

Sorry guys, I love the renders, but this project is doomed to huge time/cost blowouts and terrible disappointment. Maybe look at doing them in resin, boutique style?

 Azazelx wrote:
January 2018 for estimated delivery?

With a Chinese factory that you've never done business with before?

You know that January delivery to backers means you need to be SENDING them in December/January. Which means they need to be in hand with you in December. Probably before Christmas/New Years assuming you'll take at least a week of to spend time with your families.

Which in turn means the sprues need to be sent from China in late October/Early November (being very optimistic), and even that allows for no time to clear customs?

Your campaign had 36 days to go. It's now April 24, so the campaign will complete at the very end of May. You do know that Kickstarter can take a good 30 days to pass the money onto creators, don't you? So let's say July 1st you get the cash in hand.

So between July 1st (approx) and Mid October (3.5 months) you're going to get a production slot with a quality manufacturer, QA prototypes, and have full production and shipping in China completed ready to freight to your offices in Washington?

You're setting yourselves up for huge failure and backer disappointment there. While the renders look nice, and I applaud your ambition, you clearly have not done your homework and looked at other companies trials and tribulations and time blowouts. Mantic aren't huge, but they're a decent size now and they've got a hell of a lot more Kickstarter experience, and yet they still struggle to get their plastic kits made with any quality.

You're also using the "nation-friendly shipping" badges incorrectly. They're used by companies to denote that their project backers will not be getting charged any additional taxes (VAT, GST) as the items will be shipping from local hubs, so they will not be hit by additional costs at the border. I'll assume a complete lack of malicious intent there, but it points to more inexperience with how Kickstarter actually works and is a further red flag to backing this project.

Sorry guys, I love the renders, but this project is doomed to huge time/cost blowouts and terrible disappointment. Maybe look at doing them in resin, boutique style?

Actually we have done business with the Chinese manufacturer, they are very friendly, and the staff is very attentive to the needs of projects. Their latest work was on our Minotaur in resin, and accomplished it in a quarter of the time it took us to get a small number of resin models with other companies. They also did some work for x-wing, previous card game kickstarters for other companies, and come highly recommended. If you were to try to do something like what I asked them to do, with small resin house companies like Zealot Miniatures, or places like Trenchworx, we would be fighting for small spots. Adepticon showed how backed up resin house companies are to us.

Chinese companies prefer shipping express, like DHL or Fedex, whom help clear the customs times down. It's very friendly in that regards, not so much if you have to have a boat do it.

We have funds to access between money transition times, and are already helping with concept art, material costs and shipping from our manufacturer.

We would be using Wayland Games to help UK and EU member states. People respect them. We were waiting to see how the backers were divided to see which company would benefit the project the most.

Rapid prototypes are available as soon as we get the .CAD design.

Kickstarters of the past we really took an interest in was the Mantic flops. We support the company, know it has strengths and weaknesses, roll with its quirks, and we know that because we sell their products. The Adventures companion suffered the same fate that the initial rule books from Kings of War second edition did, typos, misreferences etc which required reprints. Dungeon Saga had its own fair share of critiques. Mantic also had delivery issues and missing shipments. We hear about it on the forums, their facebook pages, and through their corrective emails. I am accounting for it. They were good enough to act however.

So we are using ABS plastic, which will likely be coated with a gray pantone. Idea is to produce 1-2 sprues, which is why the budget seems lower. In the event that it balloons, we are stepping in to back the difference. The type of plastic seems to offer affordability with a comparative degree of quality to resin (though resin will outshine the details). If there is an issue with the injection, it will be because of a bad .CAD design, and if not, the company would rather save our relationship to correct errors then to leave us hanging. Chinese business is face. We can also turn to live inspectors before agreeing to the quality, a feature made easy in light of amazon.

To give an idea on the method,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYD8Inw0XTA

This method speeds up the time greatly.

 Nostromodamus wrote:

 Smokestack wrote:
I am surprised people aren't jumping in by the fistful...

Personally, while I like the designs, I'm leery of a company I don't know promising cheap plastic kits.

This.. even with a somewhat established company like Shieldwolf there are a lot of mixed feelings on their plastics.. (I'm currently not happy with the size thing) so that for me anyway.. is carrying over into trusting others.. I currently have at least a half dozen late or disappointing kickstarters I have backed and am watching slowly turn into bigger and bigger disasters.. so.. as neat as this is.. I have to hope for an eventual retail release.

EDIT: After reading the RDG post right above mine, add in "trying a new process" to my reasons for apprehension.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
My favorite China story is when Void did their plastics around 2002 or so they sent the 3 ups and...

The factory made some nice 75mm models for them.

That's pretty hilarious.. I am part of a Scotia Grendel group on FB so I see some of the anecdotes but had not heard this one.

rgdgaming wrote:

So we are using ABS plastic, which will likely be coated with a gray pantone.

Is this the "regular" sprue plastic used for models? (i.e will our normal polystyrene cement glue be functional?)

Nice of you to reply, and I'm not going to address every point since I'm not actually here to tear you down - but you're insanely optimistic, and it's not going to all go to plan. We've now seen many, many times how much "face" makes a difference in the face of, you know - money and hardcore Chinese capitalism. Of course, the company's relationship with you is more important than any other example we could provide - like Mantic (a far bigger fish) with multiple factories, or people's experiences with Panda, or....

There's no chance of fulfilment in January (yes, I know - your Kickstarter will be different - different to every other one where the creators says that they've done all their homework and theirs will be different.) Still, best of luck to you! And to your backers especially!

 Zywus wrote:

rgdgaming wrote:

So we are using ABS plastic, which will likely be coated with a gray pantone.

Is this the "regular" sprue plastic used for models? (i.e will our normal polystyrene cement glue be functional?)

ABS sounds interesting. asides from GW Bases i dont think iv ever seen a mini made in it.

but speaking of GW Bases plastic glue does work on it so i assume it should be ok.

(assuming im correct about it being ABS)

im in it for 25 and im probably going to forget about it by next year lol

 Zywus wrote:

rgdgaming wrote:

So we are using ABS plastic, which will likely be coated with a gray pantone.

Is this the "regular" sprue plastic used for models? (i.e will our normal polystyrene cement glue be functional?)

No. It's the plastic used in Lego and occasionally some KS projects. It doesn't like plastic glue. You need to use super glue (there's ABS cement, but that's toxic hardware store stuff). I think it was Wrath of Kings that used ABS for weapons and restic for the regular models. HIPS (High Impact Polystyrene) is what is used in most sprued plastic traditional wargaming kits, such as those from GW, Renedra, Warlord, etc, along with most model kits from Tamiya, Revell, Italieri, etc.

 Desubot wrote:

ABS sounds interesting. asides from GW Bases i dont think iv ever seen a mini made in it.
but speaking of GW Bases plastic glue does work on it so i assume it should be ok.
(assuming im correct about it being ABS)
im in it for 25 and im probably going to forget about it by next year lol

GW bases are not ABS. More HIPS

 Azazelx wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

ABS sounds interesting. asides from GW Bases i dont think iv ever seen a mini made in it.
but speaking of GW Bases plastic glue does work on it so i assume it should be ok.
(assuming im correct about it being ABS)
im in it for 25 and im probably going to forget about it by next year lol

GW bases are not ABS. More HIPS

I recall older bases have ABS molded on the bottom side.

i can check later.

 Zywus wrote:
Hello RD. I love the designs, hope you'll get these guys and gals done. There's a real lack of modern beastmen-type creatures on the market.

It's a great touch to have them take artistic cues from the real-life Thracian (and Dacian?) culture (will we see a Spartacus-esque (Faunacus?) hero perhaps ). Would look pretty cool to have a fantasy-historical mashup of an army of these versus a roman army.

Good to see you here to answer some questions.

What kind of plastics are we talking about here? Is it the same kind of HIPS used in kits by GW, Rendera etc? It sounds like you're planning to cast in-house but I though injection molding plastic required a large million dollar monster of a maching. (The reason for why a lot of companies have their plastic kits made through Rendera)

If it is the HIPS, hard plastic variety, $7K looks like a rather low estimate to me. I've heard quotes of around $20K for a HIPS kit coming from other manufacturers. (Although that 's probably for two or more sprues for a kit so I could see it being cheaper if you're going for just one)

Thrace comprised a lot of tribes. Some were confused for Scythians, others for celts etc. The Daco-thracian tribes shared a common interest in the Falx for instance and the Scytho-thracian tribes took to a love of horsemanship, and gold. Other tribes were notorious mercenaries, or just savage, like the Getae. The idea of a skirmishing javelin man didn't really sink well into Greek minds until the thracians were employed to take down spartan hoplites. So you would see them in nearly every major army in ancient history. Greece, Persia, and in Rome as auxiliaries (the contribution thought to have made Spartacus decisive against romans). And latest findings found that the Trojan war may have been over large deposits of Thracian silver.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Azazelx wrote:
Nice of you to reply, and I'm not going to address every point since I'm not actually here to tear you down - but you're insanely optimistic, and it's not going to all go to plan. We've now seen many, many times how much "face" makes a difference in the face of, you know - money and hardcore Chinese capitalism. Of course, the company's relationship with you is more important than any other example we could provide - like Mantic (a far bigger fish) with multiple factories, or people's experiences with Panda, or....

There's no chance of fulfilment in January (yes, I know - your Kickstarter will be different - different to every other one where the creators says that they've done all their homework and theirs will be different.) Still, best of luck to you! And to your backers especially!

Just responding to you, no offense has been taken. Plans will change, companies can screw up, and shipping times can change. But what we have are some measures in place to help us overcome the hurdles we will inevitably come across. Thank you for the good luck. If something does come up, we plan on speaking up about it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Azazelx wrote:

 Zywus wrote:

rgdgaming wrote:

So we are using ABS plastic, which will likely be coated with a gray pantone.

Is this the "regular" sprue plastic used for models? (i.e will our normal polystyrene cement glue be functional?)

No. It's the plastic used in Lego and occasionally some KS projects. It doesn't like plastic glue. You need to use super glue (there's ABS cement, but that's toxic hardware store stuff). I think it was Wrath of Kings that used ABS for weapons and restic for the regular models. HIPS (High Impact Polystyrene) is what is used in most sprued plastic traditional wargaming kits, such as those from GW, Renedra, Warlord, etc, along with most model kits from Tamiya, Revell, Italieri, etc.

 Desubot wrote:

ABS sounds interesting. asides from GW Bases i dont think iv ever seen a mini made in it.
but speaking of GW Bases plastic glue does work on it so i assume it should be ok.
(assuming im correct about it being ABS)
im in it for 25 and im probably going to forget about it by next year lol

GW bases are not ABS. More HIPS

On the money.

Just a general thing that might help with future planning..
Front end analysis (FEA) is done in numerous ways. A lot of the contracting I was involved in used Gantt Charts to figure stuff out but you could also use (or combine with) Pert charts. I don't know if you have or have not done these steps.. but establishing a baseline delivery date off of any established method would also allow a optimistic, pessimistic, and best guess as well as opportunities to build in slippage. Is it boring and take the fun out of the spirit of jumping in both feet and cares to the wind? Yeah absolutely.. but I watched a small company that was in the red by almost 2mil turn it around when they integrated FEA into their process for taking on new projects.. they stopped missing deadlines too.

 MLaw wrote:
Just a general thing that might help with future planning..
Front end analysis (FEA) is done in numerous ways. A lot of the contracting I was involved in used Gantt Charts to figure stuff out but you could also use (or combine with) Pert charts. I don't know if you have or have not done these steps.. but establishing a baseline delivery date off of any established method would also allow a optimistic, pessimistic, and best guess as well as opportunities to build in slippage. Is it boring and take the fun out of the spirit of jumping in both feet and cares to the wind? Yeah absolutely.. but I watched a small company that was in the red by almost 2mil turn it around when they integrated FEA into their process for taking on new projects.. they stopped missing deadlines too.

Those are extremely helpful. We are basing the timeliness off of phases in the project. For example, the amount of parts needed for the .CAD design requires 2 1/2 weeks to a month, and that was discussed prior to this project. If we are adding more torsos, heads and weapon renders, we have to give a good two months to be safe for the renderer, and the biggest time sink is the actual injection mold production, and prototyping itself 2-3 months. Production between 30 and 45 days.

As the project is being discussed we are narrowing the assets for the renderer to make. Luckily we have some torso combinations made up to cut that time down.

I'm definitely interested in throwing $50, as I love all things beastman.

I'm a little worried about the ABS though. The ABS pieces on my Wrath of Kings models are significantly lower detail than the PVC the rest of the models are made of. Do you have an example of a 28mm miniature made from ABS from the same manufacturer to put my mind at ease?