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Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine






Hello folks, just wanted to run a few thoughts by you. The recent U.S. Politics thread was locked for reasons all too clear by those participating over the months and years, but it was left all too opaque by the mod shutting it down. I have just a few questions I hope will elicit a response and garner some discussion in the ranks. Is this forum a discussion forum with the idea that people of similar interests (wargaming) come together to discuss their thoughts about various different topics? Or is this a discussion forum about the similar interest?

If it is about the similar interest (wargaming), then why have a discussion section at all about non wargaming stuff?
If it is for people who have a similar interest (wargaming) who may have differing opinions about the world at large, what standard criteria are you basing viable/nonviable discussions upon?

I get that the us poli forum is rife with heated debate, discussion, disagreements and general nastiness. So is American life and discussion. The question arises though, why does the U.K. Thread, or the French thread still remain open? Because it is less offensive to people reading it? Because it is less filled with vile and hate? Fair enough. Ban the users who do that. Simple. You have a code of conduct, use it. Be judicious.

It just seems to me, if you are going to have a forum where politics are being discussed, don't jump around it. Either cut it off entirely (ala Bolter and Chainsword) or allow it. If you don't have people who want to mod it for whatever reason, either hire them, or shut down the non wargaming discussion entirely.

Please take all I have said here under a bit of consideration (I know you have been discussing this already) and not as any offense.

One other question I had: yakface, do you still wargame or keep up with the revolving circle of it? I don't see you here much and I would like to.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/24 19:55:17


Help me, Rhonda. HA! 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






New Orleans, LA

I'm thinking because of this: "Because it is less filled with vile and hate"


DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
 
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine






 kronk wrote:
I'm thinking because of this: "Because it is less filled with vile and hate"



Says every thread ever on the interwebs. Just look at the edition change stuff. Not much difference. On the other hand, if you want to carve out a spot without it, fine. Just make sure you apply it across the board.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/24 20:06:21


Help me, Rhonda. HA! 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






San Jose, CA

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

Says every thread ever on the interwebs. Just look at the edition change stuff. Not much difference.
As a mod, I can assure you there is substantial difference. As worked up as people get over their toy soldiers, it's almost nothing compared to what happens in the US Politics thread.

Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? 
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine






 Janthkin wrote:
 Gordon Shumway wrote:

Says every thread ever on the interwebs. Just look at the edition change stuff. Not much difference.
As a mod, I can assure you there is substantial difference. As worked up as people get over their toy soldiers, it's almost nothing compared to what happens in the US Politics thread.


Fair enough, apply the same rules to posters ther as you would elsewhere. Is a matter of manpower? Can the mods simply not keep up with the discussion and moderate it appropriately? I really don't see the difference. We are passionate about what we are passionate about. IF those passions go beyond proper decorum, nix the offenders accordingly, like you would be doing on any other thread. Is the difference when you check in to do your daily mod work that there are more yellow triangles there that you have to take care of? Is the difference that the mods themselves don't care about/like the discussion so they don't want to bother with it? Please explain.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/04/24 21:01:56


Help me, Rhonda. HA! 
   
Made in gb
Keeper of the Holy Orb of Antioch





avoiding the lorax on Crion

Because they have so far remained calmer and less delved into the darkest off topic dens of dakka.

France and UK had momments but they are far less regular than US thread.

Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

"May the odds be ever in your favour"

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.

FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.  
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





Well, to be honest, I understand the moderators. To spend so much time on a topic that has actually nothing to do with the main subject of this forum, it's not worth it. That's the main reason other wargame forums don't allow Politics as a topic.

Wouldn't be actually annoyed if the whole Off Topic sub-section completely disappeared. That way, we may focus again on toy soldiers. It's already hot like this, after all.
   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 Sarouan wrote:
Wouldn't be actually annoyed if the whole Off Topic sub-section completely disappeared. That way, we may focus again on toy soldiers.


Strongly agree. There is no really good reason for the best site on the internet for miniature wargames to have a forum where limited moderator time and bandwidth is constantly drained by locking threads about abortion and guns.

There is no shortage of places on the internet people can go to discuss these things.

Opening the "geek media" thread so people can discuss off-topic stuff without being exposed to the open sewer that the OT had become was admitting there was a problem, but taking a half-measure to address it.

The entire OT should be closed and never re-opened.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






New Orleans, LA

I would love the improved productivity at work if OT died.

DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
 
   
Made in gb
Keeper of the Holy Orb of Antioch





avoiding the lorax on Crion

OT also keeps all that stuff nicely isolated away from rest of boards.

It keeps those topics in one place, and prevents it blurring into other areas.

Plus there's been some pretty cool and interesting topics in there to. Its not all a open sewer of hate and angorn grade rage.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/24 23:44:52


Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

"May the odds be ever in your favour"

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.

FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.  
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Savage Minotaur




Baltimore, Maryland

 Ouze wrote:
 Sarouan wrote:
Wouldn't be actually annoyed if the whole Off Topic sub-section completely disappeared. That way, we may focus again on toy soldiers.


Strongly agree. There is no really good reason for the best site on the internet for miniature wargames to have a forum where limited moderator time and bandwidth is constantly drained by locking threads about abortion and guns.

There is no shortage of places on the internet people can go to discuss these things.

Opening the "geek media" thread so people can discuss off-topic stuff without being exposed to the open sewer that the OT had become was admitting there was a problem, but taking a half-measure to address it.

The entire OT should be closed and never re-opened.


Damn, and thats coming from a dude with 10K posts in OT!

And I agree. It sadly took me a long time to realize that most of my OT posts, and those that I responded to, were not to have a discussion, but to 'win' a discussion. Constant antagonism.

Aside from posting goofy posts and starting silly threads, I've taken great pains to participate less in the OT and more in other sections of the forum as of late. Really made me like the site much more and appreciate all that it has to offer.

If I were ADMIN for a day, I'd turn OT into a "funnies" section, where we could all laugh at silly gak like goofy headlines, wacky news, Kronk, and other assorted weirdness.

"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
 
   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 jhe90 wrote:
OT also keeps all that stuff nicely isolated away from rest of boards.

It keeps those topics in one place, and prevents it blurring into other areas.


So, I've heard this line of thought before from a few people, and it's a neat analogy, but I think it's got some problems.

1.) You can't functionally corral bad posters into someplace like they have a communicable disease. If you remove the OT, it's not like YMDC will suddenly be full of abortion arguments - and if they were, they could be swiftly locked, just as they would be right now if that happened.

2.) You don't have "bad posting topics" - you have bad posters. People who are problem posters in the OT either are going to behave badly elsewhere (or they would have been banned), or they don't really participate elsewhere. By and large you see a lot of people who once were active in the community elsewhere, who lost interest in 40K or Infinity or whatever, and now hang around to bitch about politics. Losing those people is a net value gain for the forum in my opinion. I mean, I will readily admit that the mods and admin have more information that I do in terms of this but I feel like it's pretty anecdotally correct.

Gawd almighty, when can Motyak be free? Please God, let Motyak move on!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/24 23:55:28


 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Secret Squirrel






Leerstetten, Germany

 Ouze wrote:
By and large you see a lot of people who once were active in the community elsewhere, who lost interest in 40K or Infinity or whatever, and now hang around to bitch about politics.


That's pretty much me right there...

I'll be done with my Masters soon, and then it will be hobby time again...I hope.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
-






-

Can...


...many...some...any of the OT REGULARS actually be...redeemed?!?

I wasn't sure before, but now...

...maybe?


   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

I've probably been one of the more regular users of OT over the years, as well as one of the problematic ones who needs the Mods to slap him down with semi-regularity. I've more or less quit political discussions on OT because they infuriate me too much to maintain the facade of civility that is the norm of most of OT's political threads but is particularly the norm in the US politics threads. I use the term "facade of civility" quite literally. I think Nels1301 is completely correct. Very little happens in the political realm of OT to have an actual discussion. It's nothing but endless games of gotcha, goal post moving, whining about semantics, righteous indignation, declaring how little you care if people disagree, and sniping against grudges. Not a single one of those things is productive conversation. It's endlessly frustrating. I'm abstaining from politics threads simply because all they do is frustrate me until I do something impulsive. I've gone so far as to not log in when doing my usual gallery/painting blog browsing since I hardly ever post in the other sections of the board I use. The US politics mega threads are easily the worst and might as well be renamed "annual goal post moving/gotcha gaming/grudge sniping/straight up insulting comments that slide under the radar because they're low key" thread.

Which just goes to the other major problem with OT: some people just need to be banned from it. They're toxic and they drag other users into the muck with them. There are some users in OT who are so problematic I'm not sure why they're even allowed to post anymore. As many times as I've been temp banned why am I still allowed to post there? I can think of two persons whose been involved in nearly every lock of the US politics mega threads, and another who has induced more moderate warnings than everyone else combined. Another does little more than pass judgement on other users in incredibly hypocritical displays of righteous indignation, often entering a thread solely to snipe at the same 2 or 3 posters they really don't like. For some reason beyond me those persons are still allowed to post. I don't think there's that many people in this category. There's three or four specific users whose activities on the board just drag everything down to the lowest level, making otherwise decent posters angry and frustrated. I remember a time when I was a happy and cheerful poster in politics threads. Now I've got a picture of a guy who wanted to initiate a nuclear holocaust just to get back at a family squirrels as my avatar. I've withdrawn from politics threads because I'm fairly sure I'm one of problems at this point. I've devolved to little more than sniping at the posting habits I loathe whenever they prop up, which isn't productive.

I don't think the whole of OT needs to be banned. Non US politics threads with some exceptions manage to maintain civility most of the time. Fun threads for fun or silly topics pop up here and there, and they're fun where even the posters I find irritating in politics discussions enjoyable to converse with (looking at you threads about Australian wildlife *fond memories*). These topics don't really fit anywhere but in the OT and they're not the problem. Do we seriously need another annual "cop shot unarmed guy" thread? I could act that one out on my own at this point. Just log me into everyone's accounts and I could probably produce their responses of the usual participants perfectly! It's that damn repetitive and that to me defines probably 90-95% of US politics related threads at this point.

I think the simple solution is to just stop treating OT like a current events board (especially if some of the people I'm thinking of aren't going to be removed permanently for the sake of everyone else). It's not. It's the off topic board for things that don't fit anywhere else.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/25 04:38:13


   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine






@Lordofhats: that was really well said and, honestly, mostly convinced me of why it shouldn't come back. A lot of what you said about yourself and your reaction to the thread really sums up my own habits that I hadn't really noticed I had developed until you put your finger on it. Thanks for the perspective and thoughts.

Help me, Rhonda. HA! 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






IMO, create a Official Dakka Sewer forum for all the religion and politics threads, ignore moderation (except for spambots, illegal activities, etc), and just let the problem resolve itself. Anyone who posts there knows what they're getting into, and the moderators don't have to waste time on it.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in gb
Keeper of the Holy Orb of Antioch





avoiding the lorax on Crion

 Peregrine wrote:
IMO, create a Official Dakka Sewer forum for all the religion and politics threads, ignore moderation (except for spambots, illegal activities, etc), and just let the problem resolve itself. Anyone who posts there knows what they're getting into, and the moderators don't have to waste time on it.


Thought that was US thread...

The French one even had someone aplogize even when a conflict arose from misreading.
UK one had not needed a mod for ages.

Honestly. Somehow that US one manages to attract far worse than the others. Even thr circular arguments of the Japan offensive action thread where not as bad as US by any means.

Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

"May the odds be ever in your favour"

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.

FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.  
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






IMO the real problem is that, under dakka's moderation policy, it's more important to be superficially polite than to be right. You can post all the blatantly terrible arguments you like, over and over again, post-and-run clickbait from fringe sources, advocate whatever appalling political positions you like, etc, but as long as you don't use any bad words nothing will ever happen. But if someone gets frustrated with your terrible arguments and posts something a bit insulting suddenly that's "rude" and bans start getting handed out and the thread gets locked. Contrast that with the first forum I ever paid attention to, where the moderation policy was the exact opposite and the standard of discussion was much higher. Trolls and people with nothing to offer but terrible arguments were met with profanity, escalating to being banned for stupid and annoying if they didn't reform their behavior. Yeah, sometimes threads got hostile between legitimate posters, but things mostly handled themselves outside of banning the trolls. Dakka really needs to move in that direction.

(One example of this is when someone posted awful transphobic garbage and I, entirely accurately, called them a bigoted . I got a temp ban, the garbage remained untouched, and the admin response was that the garbage was the position of US politicians and so wasn't a violation of any forum rules. On the other forum the bigot would have been permanently banned for what they said, and the view of everyone involved would have been that a few " YOU"s on their way out was entirely justified.)

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in se
Glorious Lord of Chaos






The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer

It's a pity it went down the drain. I actually found following that thread somewhat informative, at least when I wasn't busy dodging the acid bombs being thrown about.

I should think of a new signature... In the meantime, have a  
   
Made in us
Thane of Dol Guldur




Just a thought: the US Politics threads get so heated, because there is alot in US politics to get heated about. I've never been alive in a time in the US where the citizenry has been so divided over so many issues.

I agree with the posters who have mentioned that actions should be take at the individual level. Usually it is just one or two people who drag the conversation outside the bounds of civility and forum rules. Otherwise, I have gotten alot out of US Politics threads and been exposed to ideas and points of view I would have otherwise not considered.

I also agree that these threads serve a function to remove or reduce all the bile from modern US politics out of other unrelated threads, and I suspect that if the outlet is removed, the acrimony will find its way back into other threads, which IMO would be a worse problem than the one we are discussing here.

Food for thought more than anything else. I realize this forum in its entirety is dedicated to wargaming, and a Politics thread, or even an Off Topic board, are not necessary to meet the forum's primary reason to exist.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/25 13:05:12


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






San Jose, CA

 Peregrine wrote:
IMO the real problem is that, under dakka's moderation policy, it's more important to be superficially polite than to be right.
"We both have truths; are mine the same as yours?"

Yakface's policy on moderation is pretty straightforward: he doesn't require users to have the same beliefs as he does, but he does require them to be polite to the other people in his virtual living room, even if it is just superficially. There will never be an "anything goes" thread, as that's not a forum he cares to operate. They do exist out there. Similarly, if you want a forum where people with views distasteful and counter to your own are not allowed to post, those too exist.

You will almost never convince someone who is arguing with you on the internet that you are Right. There is no combination of debate skill and eloquence that will suddenly inspire someone with a completely opposite position to understand that they have been completely wrong all the time. The medium is not conducive to the sort of gradual shift in positions that characterize actual change - everything is in the moment, except when we dig up quotes from N years ago to remind someone that they aren't allowed to change their positions. The best you can hope for is that someone not currently arguing with you finds your position to be closer to something they can agree with than the other guy's.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/25 17:23:08


Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? 
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





Well, I can understand people who want to talk with others about Real Life stuff that has nothing to do with toy soldiers. That often happens on other forums as well - the human mind isn't set on one thing only all the time, we're not machines (yet).

On the other side, blowing up the US Thread for good may be necessary to set an example in the minds of some posters. It's also some kind of drawing the line once and for all. It's indeed like punishing the whole classroom because of the behaviour of a few pests, but that's also part of human psychology after all.

I found myself being drawed too much in the heat of some "debates" (it was indeed more like trying to rub "the Right Truth" in the face of others who don't agree, actually). Now that's it's not there, I believe it's not such a huge loss. Better to spend more time on miniatures and chatting about my true passion, not trying to convince "Right Wingers" to become "Red Socialists". Not only it's bound to fail, but it's just not worth it. Losing my time, losing your time, losing the time of everyone else watching and losing the time of moderators. Better to drop that dead horse for good.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/25 17:01:23


 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




Building a blood in water scent

I enjoy Politics in the OT because people from all over the various social spectrum are drawn to this site via our shared hobby. Close to 100% of my exposure to intelligent discussions online with persons from the "other side", so to speak, have been in the Dakka OT. Reddit, FB, etc seem to filter users into echo chambers where we all sit around and agree how much issue X sucks and the other side are fething morons for embracing it.

My own (perhaps minor?) interactions with the BANEHAMMER have been fair and in one case even pleasant.

We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".

“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'” 
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

 Janthkin wrote:
"We both have truths; are mine the same as yours?"


While this is fair, I think we all know there are more than a few posters in the OT, particularly in the US politics threads, who are so banal they can't even follow their own posts let alone anyone elses. Not that many people mind you but they're there and they're so disruptive it doesn't become a matter of "truth vs truth" but "concise posting vs gibberish that looks like posting."

It is unrealistic to have a policy of "act civil but don't be civil." We're not stupid. It's clear when someone is being aggressive, argumentative for the sake of argumentation, and disingenuous with others. The facade of civility will never hold for long. It's a ticking time bomb waiting to be locked/bans handed out, and why should the community indulge such a thing? While the mods have done an excellent job of not picking sides as happens with so many forums where politics get discussed I think the underlying issue is deeper than that. The community itself on the OT when it comes to politics, especially US politics, is broken. Adhering to the letter of the forum rules while their spirit is dragged through the muk isn't productive.

Which I don't say to agree with Peregrine. I think he's wrong. The annual grudge matches in their current state reduce the board to pettiness and are not worth having without a stricter standard of quality to drag the bar back up to something where people can have conversation that won't end in constant anger and frustration with tfg (for lack of a better term) who posts flame bait and makes any higher level discussion beyond that of a fifth grader impossible. Constant talking past each other. Reiteration of already established points of disagreement ad naseum. They just go on and on until participants quit out of irritation and many posters can just move on with that but many others take that irritation into the next topic and just because they're maintaining a sadly low standard of civility doesn't mean we're too stupid to pick up on the passive aggressiveness in the post. Some topics probably need a blanket ban anyway because again "cop shot unarmed guy" threads are so repetitive at this point they're a cliche.

At this point nothing short of actual debate moderation (which I don't think any of the mods became mods to do) will make US politics in the OT feasible, and does anyone seriously want to do that much work just to improve one particular topic area?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/25 17:59:26


   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






New Orleans, LA

 Peregrine wrote:
IMO the real problem is that, under dakka's moderation policy, it's more important to be superficially polite than to be right.


0% agreement. Nah, you are over the top caustic too often and get away with too much gak to get to say that. Take this feedback as a chance to grow. Breathe in, breathe out, read the latest private pilot book or something. When was the last time you studied rules/regulations about traffic patterns at mid-sized airports like St. Louis?

 Peregrine wrote:
(One example of this is when someone posted awful transphobic garbage and I, entirely accurately, called them a bigoted . I got a temp ban, the garbage remained untouched, and the admin response was that the garbage was the position of US politicians and so wasn't a violation of any forum rules. On the other forum the bigot would have been permanently banned for what they said, and the view of everyone involved would have been that a few " YOU"s on their way out was entirely justified.)


50/50 agreement: You deserved a few days off to cool off. However, that guy was being a dick and needed a few days or longer off these genteel forums.


 Peregrine wrote:

but things mostly handled themselves outside of banning the trolls. Dakka really needs to move in that direction.


100% agreement that more temp/perma bans need to be handed out for some of the vile crap that gets posted. I'll be happy to make that list for the Mods! I'm a contributor.

DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
 
   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

The idea of being more generous with OT bans* I think has merit - as it stands now you need to engage is some pretty extreme behavior to get banned from the OT - and the problematic users tend to be long-time posters who are adept at skirting up to the edge of the rules.

Banning from the OT* alone might allow some of these problem users to still partake in the purpose of Dakka while cleaning the forum up for users who are capable in participating in these discussions without being disruptive.

I still think it's a half measure of course but I do agree with LordofHats, the OT used to be kind of fun for weird news stories and the like.



*Or hell, even just start baning people from the US politics thread if it is allowed to reopen.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/25 19:44:44


 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






New Orleans, LA

 Ouze wrote:

Banning from the OT* alone might allow some of these problem users to still partake in the purpose of Dakka while cleaning the forum up for users who are capable in participating in these discussions without being disruptive.


I can think of 1 name off-hand where this specific thing happened (3 or 4 years ago?) and he was able to contribute to other 40k threads.

DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Losing the politics thread is no loss. I would just note that in the subforum rules: no politics, no religion, movie/Tv in the Geek side, no cat lovers-ok I guess cat lovers might be ok-etc.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

 Frazzled wrote:
no cat lovers-ok I guess cat lovers might be ok-etc.


Viva la resistance!




   
 
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