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Just found out some awful news, our FLGS is closing on the 30th. The owner had been in operation for 3 years and it had been such an amazing place to hang out, meet people, and play games. We're in a city of about 200,000 people with about another 200,000 in neighboring areas (less than 40 minutes in any direction). This was the only location that really supported wargaming, board games, and RPGs. Our only other option is a generic MTG-centered store. It sounds like he got stuck in a bad tax situation and thanks to a miscalculation, he owed a significantly larger sum than he was originally anticipating...

Guess it's time to box up the models/games and hope a new store shows up soon? Anyone else had their only LGS just close on them? What did you end up doing to scratch your hobby itch once there wasn't really a place to go to anymore?

That sucks. I would say that game stores are one of the highest closure-rate ventures you can even attempt...moreso than Restaurants (which have like a 70% failure rate in the first year or something).

I've seen numerous game stores close up shop everywhere I've lived. Sucks that he didn't have the taxes planned on properly - that's a kick in the teeth.

Are there any venues you can hire in your city? Or do any of the folk who frequent the store have a back room or a basement or a garage you can meet up in?

Is there not some official body he can engage with, to arrange a repayment scheme?

Surely it's in governmental interest to keep businesses open?

Sorry to hear it.

One option we looked at years ago in NY was subletting space from another organization, letting us put in a locker and folding tables and use twice a week. Either for rent or (with luck) buying snacks etc.

Is that possible?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And of course if most people have space you can go decentralized, a FB group or something and meet in houses. Might be a better way to start.

Definitely look into setting up a club.

My local one meets in the Working Men's Club - which keeps costs down. We can even use their facilities at weekends, and there's a quiet basement bit well suited to Apocalypse games.

Church Halls offer much the same, as might Community centres.

The key here I'd say is to at least try. A club can help keep the community together - and an active community could help bring about a new games store (and depending on your local demographic, allow them to set up shop in a smaller unit, as the club can offer the main gaming venue?)

Local libraries are about as close as you'll get in the US to finding a small decent conference room or space for gaming. Tough though.

I honestly think taxes have been the bane of more store closures that I know of than poor sales. The poor sales ones generally had crap service to point to as well. Taxes though...local shop keep starts out and thinks it will be like his 1040EZ was and boom..store closed. Even knew a couple that were open one day and locked tight the next with a large notices on the door and player's armies and terrain locked up inside.

Church halls, Knights of Columbus/ELKS/men's groups, local library, school districts, university, fire/police depts...all usually have a mechanism for gaining access to a large room where 4-6 tables could be set up to play. Problem is, it will take planning. You can't just get an itch on Thursday and be playing on Sat. Many require a rental (usually low cost, but can vary) fee along with some kind of refundable security deposit and several weeks of planning to get approval. My local church has a lovely hall they rent out for about 50 bucks with a similar sized security deposit....you need about 2 months of planning to make sure their elders board can approve your using the room. My cub scouts have no issues gettting space there...not sure they would rent to my gaming club.

The biggest issue though is keeping communication with the group open. Set up a FB group asap. Even if its only 2-3 guys with enough space in a basement to throw down every third weekend, its better than nothing and easier than starting from scratch.

Branch out. Apoc is probably done for awhile, but Inifinty, Necromunda, Malifaux, Warmahordes, Xwing takes less space so can accommodate more people at a limited venue.

Approach that MTG shop. There -has- to be at least one night a week he is slow and can put up with some dice rollers for an hour or two. Be respectful. Buy his snacks. Buy a Commander starter. Bring your own terrain and pick up after yourself. Show him that its worth his while to let you in for an hour or two a week. He might discover with the lack of competition it is now worth his while to expand into a new revenue stream.

I had facebook for years and never used it until I realized how excellent it was for gaming groups and the local game scene. now I unsubscribe to the few friends/family on there and simply use it as a place to share hobby info. It's a good idea.

If there isn't a local gaming facebook group - make one!

 Elbows wrote:
I had facebook for years and never used it until I realized how excellent it was for gaming groups and the local game scene. now I unsubscribe to the few friends/family on there and simply use it as a place to share hobby info. It's a good idea.

If there isn't a local gaming facebook group - make one!

I was going nuts from the crossed streams and created a new FB just for geek stuff. I might have to split again and have one just for work 'friends' too.

I should clarify...I'm facebook's worst user. I cramp down every security feature, turn off every single notification, and seriously unsubscribe from every single person on my friends list (if I want to know what they're doing...I'll text or call them). I just keep them on there as a kind of address book.

So my facebook page is 100% feeds from the 5-6 hobby/gaming groups I'm part of, lol.

 Elbows wrote:
I should clarify...I'm facebook's worst user. I cramp down every security feature, turn off every single notification, and seriously unsubscribe from every single person on my friends list (if I want to know what they're doing...I'll text or call them). I just keep them on there as a kind of address book.

So my facebook page is 100% feeds from the 5-6 hobby/gaming groups I'm part of, lol.

In that case you better get the email addresses of as many local gamers as possible or you may be out of luck. Are there any local wargamer forums?

I'm not on facebook at all, but about 7 years ago I started a small club of local wargamers after a short time we abandoned FLGS's almost entirley in favor of gaming in member's homes. We started our own blog and forum. Honestly, the group has shrunk to a pretty small size now but we've had 7 years of gaming every other week and having a great time and we're still going.

The owner of the store started up a local Warhammer Facebook group, we have about 30 people in it as of this morning, he's very much interested in keeping the community alive, even if his store is closed.

I'm sure the community will continue along, but it's still pretty sad to lose the primary area where we had events, tournaments, monthly meet ups, all the new products. :(

If possible he might want to keep his wholesale account, maybe operating a webstore or something.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Is there not some official body he can engage with, to arrange a repayment scheme?

Surely it's in governmental interest to keep businesses open?

In America it's strictly sink or swim, unless your business is big enough to have major Congressional support. For the little guy? Not a chance, the IRS is relentless. Going under is the only way the owner is going to keep his personal possessions from being seized to pay the taxes.

 Vulcan wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Is there not some official body he can engage with, to arrange a repayment scheme?

Surely it's in governmental interest to keep businesses open?

In America it's strictly sink or swim, unless your business is big enough to have major Congressional support. For the little guy? Not a chance, the IRS is relentless. Going under is the only way the owner is going to keep his personal possessions from being seized to pay the taxes.

yeah California taxs and laws are death knells for small businesses along with the increase of minimum wage, bah California is just plain anti business, as to the FLGS they must have had some really serious tax issues since the IRS is willing to work with businesses and even small businesses.

I just heard that Trump is trying to get his new tax plan pushed through, it would reduce small business taxes from a staggering 38.5% down to a more reasonable 15%.

Too little, too late in this case. The US is very small-business unfriendly, sadly. I don't even know how the hell any of them stay open. Between that insane tax levels, plus paying tax on their personal income from the store, and the super low profit margin (I think most stuff he sold, only about 30% of the sale was actual "profit") so in order to JUST cover his montly rent for his small store (over $2000/month) he'd have to sell at least $6000 of product. That doesn't even cover his taxes, the utilities, or paying himself to keep a roof over his own head.


EDIT: Example:

He sells a $60 games workshop kit, the kit costs him $40 wholesale, he makes $20 profit, 38.5% of that is then taken away by the IRS, so he's left with $12.30 to divide up between operating costs, new stock, and whatever he can scrape together to pay himself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was a bit wrong on the tax rate, it's actually 39.1

Per wiki's entry on the US Corporate tax rates:

"In 2014 the United States had the third highest general top marginal corporate income tax rate in the world at 39.1 percent (consisting of the 35% federal rate plus a combined state rate), exceeded only by Chad and the United Arab Emirates."

Sadly, as if in tune with this thread the nearby gameshop here just announced it's closing doors in two weeks as well. Shame, I didn't even get to visit it (never new it was here till a few weeks ago).

 Elbows wrote:
Sadly, as if in tune with this thread the nearby gameshop here just announced it's closing doors in two weeks as well. Shame, I didn't even get to visit it (never new it was here till a few weeks ago).

Ah man, that sucks. I'm sorry, Elbows. This is why I get mad at those people who champion buying stuff off Amazon over the FLGS just to save a few bucks. Then those same ding-dongs are shocked when they don't have a place to play anymore.

Man i went through a flg closing once that suuuuuuuuuuucked

keep your friends close and try to game at one of your houses. or otherwise start a club and rent some space out.

always sucks when people flake on dues though. gamers can be soo cheap.

 HunterEste wrote:
I just heard that Trump is trying to get his new tax plan pushed through, it would reduce small business taxes from a staggering 38.5% down to a more reasonable 15%.

Too little, too late in this case. The US is very small-business unfriendly, sadly. I don't even know how the hell any of them stay open. Between that insane tax levels, plus paying tax on their personal income from the store, and the super low profit margin (I think most stuff he sold, only about 30% of the sale was actual "profit") so in order to JUST cover his montly rent for his small store (over $2000/month) he'd have to sell at least $6000 of product. That doesn't even cover his taxes, the utilities, or paying himself to keep a roof over his own head.


EDIT: Example:

He sells a $60 games workshop kit, the kit costs him $40 wholesale, he makes $20 profit, 38.5% of that is then taken away by the IRS, so he's left with $12.30 to divide up between operating costs, new stock, and whatever he can scrape together to pay himself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was a bit wrong on the tax rate, it's actually 39.1

Per wiki's entry on the US Corporate tax rates:

"In 2014 the United States had the third highest general top marginal corporate income tax rate in the world at 39.1 percent (consisting of the 35% federal rate plus a combined state rate), exceeded only by Chad and the United Arab Emirates."

yeah in some small business now a days around California if they have employees sometimes the employees are making more then the owner is, problem is people want to stick it too the large corporations but it is usually the smaller store and such that suffer.

but on the other hand when it comes to FLGS's miniature games are a side line business, they don't make a whole lot on those to keep their business open, as it goes the only game store left open in my town is in a hole in the wall downtown in a bad neighborhood, so I usually don't go there in fact think i've only been there twice since they opened years ago but then again I can be like that since this is my game room:



but anywhoo I digress, game stores money maker is MTG or whatever flavor of the month card game is going on, thats where game stores make their money, problem is with taxs going up, minimum wage going up, space rental going up and health insurance going up and so on and so on most games stores cannot survive and are doomed to failure, not because of lack of sales or bad business, but because they got nickled and dimed out of business. many of the game stores that do stay open are only able to do so, because they have a thriving online business too.

Asterios wrote:

 HunterEste wrote:
I just heard that Trump is trying to get his new tax plan pushed through, it would reduce small business taxes from a staggering 38.5% down to a more reasonable 15%.

Too little, too late in this case. The US is very small-business unfriendly, sadly. I don't even know how the hell any of them stay open. Between that insane tax levels, plus paying tax on their personal income from the store, and the super low profit margin (I think most stuff he sold, only about 30% of the sale was actual "profit") so in order to JUST cover his montly rent for his small store (over $2000/month) he'd have to sell at least $6000 of product. That doesn't even cover his taxes, the utilities, or paying himself to keep a roof over his own head.


EDIT: Example:

He sells a $60 games workshop kit, the kit costs him $40 wholesale, he makes $20 profit, 38.5% of that is then taken away by the IRS, so he's left with $12.30 to divide up between operating costs, new stock, and whatever he can scrape together to pay himself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was a bit wrong on the tax rate, it's actually 39.1

Per wiki's entry on the US Corporate tax rates:

"In 2014 the United States had the third highest general top marginal corporate income tax rate in the world at 39.1 percent (consisting of the 35% federal rate plus a combined state rate), exceeded only by Chad and the United Arab Emirates."

yeah in some small business now a days around California if they have employees sometimes the employees are making more then the owner is, problem is people want to stick it too the large corporations but it is usually the smaller store and such that suffer.

but on the other hand when it comes to FLGS's miniature games are a side line business, they don't make a whole lot on those to keep their business open, as it goes the only game store left open in my town is in a hole in the wall downtown in a bad neighborhood, so I usually don't go there in fact think i've only been there twice since they opened years ago but then again I can be like that since this is my game room:

Spoiler:

but anywhoo I digress, game stores money maker is MTG or whatever flavor of the month card game is going on, thats where game stores make their money, problem is with taxs going up, minimum wage going up, space rental going up and health insurance going up and so on and so on most games stores cannot survive and are doomed to failure, not because of lack of sales or bad business, but because they got nickled and dimed out of business. many of the game stores that do stay open are only able to do so, because they have a thriving online business too.

Yeah he supported Pokemon TCG, some MTG, Star Wars Destiny, Dice Masters, as ongoing customization game systems that seemed to sell fairly well. He also supported Board Games, RPG systems, Hobby Supplies, Miniatures (basically all the major lines you could think of), and had food and drink sales on site. I just think getting slapped with a "oh by the way you owe the IRS 10,000 more than what your CPA told you" was the final straw.

His business was fairly diverse, every weekend it was basically filled with people who were buying stuff.

 HunterEste wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 HunterEste wrote:
I just heard that Trump is trying to get his new tax plan pushed through, it would reduce small business taxes from a staggering 38.5% down to a more reasonable 15%.

Too little, too late in this case. The US is very small-business unfriendly, sadly. I don't even know how the hell any of them stay open. Between that insane tax levels, plus paying tax on their personal income from the store, and the super low profit margin (I think most stuff he sold, only about 30% of the sale was actual "profit") so in order to JUST cover his montly rent for his small store (over $2000/month) he'd have to sell at least $6000 of product. That doesn't even cover his taxes, the utilities, or paying himself to keep a roof over his own head.


EDIT: Example:

He sells a $60 games workshop kit, the kit costs him $40 wholesale, he makes $20 profit, 38.5% of that is then taken away by the IRS, so he's left with $12.30 to divide up between operating costs, new stock, and whatever he can scrape together to pay himself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was a bit wrong on the tax rate, it's actually 39.1

Per wiki's entry on the US Corporate tax rates:

"In 2014 the United States had the third highest general top marginal corporate income tax rate in the world at 39.1 percent (consisting of the 35% federal rate plus a combined state rate), exceeded only by Chad and the United Arab Emirates."

yeah in some small business now a days around California if they have employees sometimes the employees are making more then the owner is, problem is people want to stick it too the large corporations but it is usually the smaller store and such that suffer.

but on the other hand when it comes to FLGS's miniature games are a side line business, they don't make a whole lot on those to keep their business open, as it goes the only game store left open in my town is in a hole in the wall downtown in a bad neighborhood, so I usually don't go there in fact think i've only been there twice since they opened years ago but then again I can be like that since this is my game room:

Spoiler:

but anywhoo I digress, game stores money maker is MTG or whatever flavor of the month card game is going on, thats where game stores make their money, problem is with taxs going up, minimum wage going up, space rental going up and health insurance going up and so on and so on most games stores cannot survive and are doomed to failure, not because of lack of sales or bad business, but because they got nickled and dimed out of business. many of the game stores that do stay open are only able to do so, because they have a thriving online business too.

Yeah he supported Pokemon TCG, some MTG, Star Wars Destiny, Dice Masters, as ongoing customization game systems that seemed to sell fairly well. He also supported Board Games, RPG systems, Hobby Supplies, Miniatures (basically all the major lines you could think of), and had food and drink sales on site. I just think getting slapped with a "oh by the way you owe the IRS 10,000 more than what your CPA told you" was the final straw.

His business was fairly diverse, every weekend it was basically filled with people who were buying stuff.

sounds like his CPA was at fault and should be looked into, since if it was the CPA who failed to inform him or such, then the CPA is responsible for issues, not your guy.

Yeah it's possible the CPA was at fault, or honestly, the owner may have just misunderstood something. I wasn't there so I can't say for sure who was at fault, but there was a miscommunication somewhere :(

 HunterEste wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Sadly, as if in tune with this thread the nearby gameshop here just announced it's closing doors in two weeks as well. Shame, I didn't even get to visit it (never new it was here till a few weeks ago).

Ah man, that sucks. I'm sorry, Elbows. This is why I get mad at those people who champion buying stuff off Amazon over the FLGS just to save a few bucks. Then those same ding-dongs are shocked when they don't have a place to play anymore.

Eh, I'm iffy on that. If a store is clean, helpful and I game there...I'll buy stuff there, even if it's just dice or paint every time I swing by. But if the store sucks, screw em. I have a huge gaming store near here which has been around forever. However they charge over MSRP and the place is pretty smelly. I feel no compulsion to support them. I can always game at a person's house. I like supporting a good local game store, but I don't blindly support them unless they earn my business. If I was perhaps much more wealthy than I am at the moment that might change a bit, but not likely!

I just find it hard to justify buying at full price if I can get lower prices on the internet. The last time I made major purchases for a new army, those "few bucks" at 20%ish off equated to over $100 saved (aka $100 worth of additional models, or with the discount actually more like $125 of additional models, aka a free knight or wraightknight or 2-4 free squads). Game stores would see at least some of those profits if they were willing to say "hey, if you place your order through me I'll match internet prices as long as you pick them up within a couple days of arrival".

I've asked every store I frequent, and those that have been willing to do that result in me not purchasing on the internet as long as I live in that area. Regardless of their response the store I go to still gets the one off purchases, paint purchases, and miscellaneous others.

 Vulcan wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Is there not some official body he can engage with, to arrange a repayment scheme?

Surely it's in governmental interest to keep businesses open?

In America it's strictly sink or swim, unless your business is big enough to have major Congressional support. For the little guy? Not a chance, the IRS is relentless. Going under is the only way the owner is going to keep his personal possessions from being seized to pay the taxes.

As a small business owner, this is not true.

There are plenty of easy ways to keep your business and personal assets seperate that are relatively inexpensive. The Small Business Admin, Chamber of Commerce, or local small business incubator will gladly sort you out. If you do not have one of thsoe, your state State Department or Deptartment of Commerce can provide you with additional booklets to help you.

Also, many small businesses run afoul of Sales tax. You see, your first year you can choose how you want to pay them. Monthly, Quarterly, or Annually. many try to do it annually and then do not have the money at the end of the year because sales taxes add up really fast! After your first year, you typically have to change format based on your sales collected to monthly or quarterly. This can also change by state. However, if this is the case, it is not the IRS but the State that is after the money.

 HunterEste wrote:
Just found out some awful news, our FLGS is closing on the 30th. The owner had been in operation for 3 years and it had been such an amazing place to hang out, meet people, and play games. We're in a city of about 200,000 people with about another 200,000 in neighboring areas (less than 40 minutes in any direction). This was the only location that really supported wargaming, board games, and RPGs. Our only other option is a generic MTG-centered store. It sounds like he got stuck in a bad tax situation and thanks to a miscalculation, he owed a significantly larger sum than he was originally anticipating...

Guess it's time to box up the models/games and hope a new store shows up soon? Anyone else had their only LGS just close on them? What did you end up doing to scratch your hobby itch once there wasn't really a place to go to anymore?

I would see it as an opportunity to start a gaming club, and internally buy sell and trade within the cultivated local community.

How do you make a small fortune as a game store owner- start with a large one...

 HunterEste wrote:

Guess it's time to box up the models/games and hope a new store shows up soon?

Sorry to hear that your store is unfortunately closing, but it might be worth your while to get the phone numbers of the guys you've really enjoyed gaming with (and encourage them to do the same) so you can still catch up at each others' places for a game. It's not the same as an open venue like a store or club, but it doesn't mean you can't ever game again until a new club opens up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 HunterEste wrote:

Ah man, that sucks. I'm sorry, Elbows. This is why I get mad at those people who champion buying stuff off Amazon over the FLGS just to save a few bucks. Then those same ding-dongs are shocked when they don't have a place to play anymore.

Depends. If you play there, then you should buy at least a large proportion of your stuff there. If not, then there should be not (social) obligation to do so.

 troa wrote:
I just find it hard to justify buying at full price if I can get lower prices on the internet. The last time I made major purchases for a new army, those "few bucks" at 20%ish off equated to over $100 saved (aka $100 worth of additional models, or with the discount actually more like $125 of additional models, aka a free knight or wraightknight or 2-4 free squads). Game stores would see at least some of those profits if they were willing to say "hey, if you place your order through me I'll match internet prices as long as you pick them up within a couple days of arrival".

I've asked every store I frequent, and those that have been willing to do that result in me not purchasing on the internet as long as I live in that area. Regardless of their response the store I go to still gets the one off purchases, paint purchases, and miscellaneous others.

I had a local store at one point - a few years ago. I didn't (ever) actually play there but would stop past to chat, buy WD, dice, Reaper models, etc to support him a bit. I mentioned the price-match-internet thing to him after awhile but he demanded that I'd need to be ordering at least $500 worth of stuff at a go for it to be "worth his time". He was a bit of a dick and would do things like put customer orders immediately onto the shelf when they arrived (because someone else might buy it before you get there, and if that happens he can just order another one for you). Not a king of customer service. Then he moved his store in one direction and I moved in the other direction. Last time I stopped by there to buy some sprays (like $100-odd worth) and he sat there behind the counter changing the prices on some of them to the "new" price since a later batch had a higher price. I've never gone there since, and he's lost many thousands of dollars in potential business from me.

He's still in business (just checked online) so good luck to him. I won't be back, though...

I'm a firm believer of paying where i play, going back to my CCG days. My local store, where i used to game, hase become less friendly. The casual game night folks became cliquish, the new till monkeys have gotten pushy with sales, and they lave less GW stock than ever.

I have no guilt about switching to buying from Reesius at Front Line Gaming.