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Once again, I am very excited about the upcoming 8th edition release. We now know that AV is a thing of the past, and that both vehicles and MCs alike are going to have toughness values. Dreadnoughts are going to be T 7, 8 wounds and 3+ armor.

They have not yet released the stats for drop pods and rhinos, but I don't think that this would be too difficult to figure out, since the current relevant stats of rhinos, drop pods and dreadnoughts aren't all that dissimilar.

I think it would be reasonable to expect a rhino that's anywhere from T6-8, 6-9 wounds and probably 3+ armor as well. The drop pod will probably be slightly tougher.

Here is my question:

Is the prospect of a significantly more durable rhino enough to shift the space marine meta away from drop pods?

Depends on what the rules actually are =D

GodDamUser wrote:
Depends on what the rules actually are =D

Assuming that drop pods and rhinos had a stat line equivalent to the dreadnought stat-line that they released, which would you be more likely to use?

 Traditio wrote:

Assuming that drop pods and rhinos had a stat line equivalent to the dreadnought stat-line that they released, which would you be more likely to use?

What I mean.. is that what are the special rules associated with these two..

Rumor is you will be able to charge out of a Rhino... But if you can also charge out of a drop pod.. then I cant see a reason why you would pick a Rhino over a drop pod..

But my assumption is still based on current ruleset

Wont know more until 8th ed is actually released

GodDamUser wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Assuming that drop pods and rhinos had a stat line equivalent to the dreadnought stat-line that they released, which would you be more likely to use?

What I mean.. is that what are the special rules associated with these two..

Rumor is you will be able to charge out of a Rhino... But if you can also charge out of a drop pod.. then I cant see a reason why you would pick a Rhino over a drop pod..

But my assumption is still based on current ruleset

Wont know more until 8th ed is actually released

This is a fair point. To be clear, I'm assuming in advance that rhinos retain the ability to allow troops to embark on them and fire out of them, whereas drop pods force you to disembark troops immediately upon deep striking.

I think the fact that rhinos will have greater durability might make "drive around and shoot" a more viable option.

And even for assaults, you can't re-embark an assault unit into a drop pod. You can, however, re-embark an assault unit into a rhino.

 Traditio wrote:


This is a fair point. To be clear, I'm assuming in advance that rhinos retain the ability to allow troops to embark on them and fire out of them, whereas drop pods force you to disembark troops immediately upon deep striking.

I think the fact that rhinos will have greater durability might make "drive around and shoot" a more viable option.

And even for assaults, you can't re-embark an assault unit into a drop pod. You can, however, re-embark an assault unit into a rhino.

meh if you can charge straight away.. depending on your list there is no point to stay in them.. It would likely see marine lists become more assault focused as you are pretty much garneted first hit in assault if you charge

Well, they won't be free, so I think we will see a decrease in their use if only for that fact alone. They also won't have a dreadnought stat line, they have lower armor so you can expect them to be lower toughness in the new edition, and probably a lower armor save. If they are T6 with a 4+ save, even bolters will be able to take them down with relative ease, assuming a -1 rend on bolters. Still too much unknown to really say one way or another yet.

Unless you're not allowed to shot when hopping out of a DP or you can scatter off the board... not sure how gameplay rules or stats would effect the utility of Dropods...

So that leaves only cost... which I have no clue how that will work in 8E

 Grimgold wrote:
Well, they won't be free, so I think we will see a decrease in their use if only for that fact alone.

This is a good point. On the other hand, the skyhammer was also a popular formation.

They also won't have a dreadnought stat line, they have lower armor so you can expect them to be lower toughness in the new edition, and probably a lower armor save. If they are T6 with a 4+ save, even bolters will be able to take them down with relative ease, assuming a -1 rend on bolters. Still too much unknown to really say one way or another yet.

Even at T6 and 4+ base armor save, assuming the current damage chart, that's still only wounding on 6s, and it still needs to bypass a 5+ armor save.

10/1 X 2/3 X 1/6 X 2/3 = 40/54 or 20/27 unsaved wounds per 10 bolter shots.

Then the question is: how many wounds will a rhino have?

I'm thinking that this presents a relatively safe/durable method of transporting marines across the field, at least for a couple of turns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, has anybody here considered the impact that these changes are going to have on Ork trukk spam?

 Grimgold wrote:
Well, they won't be free, so I think we will see a decrease in their use if only for that fact alone.

Says what? Has GW said no more free unit formations? GW isn't likely to remove formations all together from 8th seeing they are pushing them all the time in AOS and help them sell models so...

tneva82 wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
Well, they won't be free, so I think we will see a decrease in their use if only for that fact alone.

Says what? Has GW said no more free unit formations? GW isn't likely to remove formations all together from 8th seeing they are pushing them all the time in AOS and help them sell models so...

AoS pays points for their formations. You can easily expect 40k to start doing the same

 CrownAxe wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
Well, they won't be free, so I think we will see a decrease in their use if only for that fact alone.

Says what? Has GW said no more free unit formations? GW isn't likely to remove formations all together from 8th seeing they are pushing them all the time in AOS and help them sell models so...

AoS pays points for their formations. You can easily expect 40k to start doing the same

Is price of formation though same as drop pods? I don't think so. Especially since amount of units isn't fixed. Plus don't think rhino/razorback/drop pod costed same price either(albeit don't have SM codex)

It might add some extra tax but it will still be huge discount

There aren't any free unit formations in AOS, they pay for formations as well. Also, drop pods and rhinos are indeed the same price currently.

 Grimgold wrote:
Well, they won't be free, so I think we will see a decrease in their use if only for that fact alone. They also won't have a dreadnought stat line, they have lower armor so you can expect them to be lower toughness in the new edition, and probably a lower armor save. If they are T6 with a 4+ save, even bolters will be able to take them down with relative ease, assuming a -1 rend on bolters. Still too much unknown to really say one way or another yet.

Actually, they're better armoured than a dread. Dreads are 12/12/10 while drop pods are 12/12/12 (but open topped and immobile). T6 with a 4+ isn't going to be easy to put wounds on with bolters at all, even with -1 rend. 40 shots, hitting on 3's, wounding on 6's, saving on 5's gives ~3 unsaved wounds and pods are probably going to have more than 3 wounds if dreads have 8.

 Drasius wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
Well, they won't be free, so I think we will see a decrease in their use if only for that fact alone. They also won't have a dreadnought stat line, they have lower armor so you can expect them to be lower toughness in the new edition, and probably a lower armor save. If they are T6 with a 4+ save, even bolters will be able to take them down with relative ease, assuming a -1 rend on bolters. Still too much unknown to really say one way or another yet.

Actually, they're better armoured than a dread. Dreads are 12/12/10 while drop pods are 12/12/12 (but open topped and immobile). T6 with a 4+ isn't going to be easy to put wounds on with bolters at all, even with -1 rend. 40 shots, hitting on 3's, wounding on 6's, saving on 5's gives ~3 unsaved wounds and pods are probably going to have more than 3 wounds if dreads have 8.

So, which do you think you would find more strategically viable? Drop pod or rhino?

Gosh I hope rhinos are viable in new edition .

 Rippy wrote:
Gosh I hope rhinos are viable in new edition .

Me too!

Tactical marines are supposed to ride around in metal boxes.

Assault marines have the option to ride around in metal boxes.

Other genetically altered super soldiers wearing power armor (e.g., Khorne Berserkers) have the option to ride around in metal boxes.

Metal boxes need to be viable.

 Traditio wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
Gosh I hope rhinos are viable in new edition .

Me too!

Tactical marines are supposed to ride around in metal boxes.

Assault marines have the option to ride around in metal boxes.

Other genetically altered super soldiers wearing power armor (e.g., Khorne Berserkers) have the option to ride around in metal boxes.

Metal boxes need to be viable.

I feel like they're so basic and self-evidently a part of how marines get around that they should come free with certain units, and other units should have free drop pods.

 Traditio wrote:

 Drasius wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
Well, they won't be free, so I think we will see a decrease in their use if only for that fact alone. They also won't have a dreadnought stat line, they have lower armor so you can expect them to be lower toughness in the new edition, and probably a lower armor save. If they are T6 with a 4+ save, even bolters will be able to take them down with relative ease, assuming a -1 rend on bolters. Still too much unknown to really say one way or another yet.

Actually, they're better armoured than a dread. Dreads are 12/12/10 while drop pods are 12/12/12 (but open topped and immobile). T6 with a 4+ isn't going to be easy to put wounds on with bolters at all, even with -1 rend. 40 shots, hitting on 3's, wounding on 6's, saving on 5's gives ~3 unsaved wounds and pods are probably going to have more than 3 wounds if dreads have 8.

So, which do you think you would find more strategically viable? Drop pod or rhino?

Depends on points, stats and how you run the rest of your army. Given that we know absoutely nothing about any of these things, any speculation is just that - pure guesswork that has no basis in reality. Are drop pods currently too cheap? Probably. Will they get balanced in points or ability? Possibly. Will rhinos and pods have the same carry capacity? Will you be able to charge out of both, one or neither? Will they be the same points? WIll they have the same armour? Will pods still have drop pod assault? Will being outside a transport be a death sentance like it is now? Will marines be worth taking over scouts, therefore negating the entire argument? Will there be a formation/warscoll/whatever that makes one or the other a better choice for certain army compositions? Until we know these things, we can't really say one way or the other.

Having said all that - If pods retain their DPA rules, there will almost always be a reason to take one since putting models down somewhere with absolute certainty T1 is almost always going to be useful. Hopefully they're a bit more balanced than they are currently without going too far the other direction as, personally, the drop pod is such an iconic marine thing that I'd hate to see them disappear due to overnerfing.

 Purifier wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
Gosh I hope rhinos are viable in new edition .

Me too!

Tactical marines are supposed to ride around in metal boxes.

Assault marines have the option to ride around in metal boxes.

Other genetically altered super soldiers wearing power armor (e.g., Khorne Berserkers) have the option to ride around in metal boxes.

Metal boxes need to be viable.

I feel like they're so basic and self-evidently a part of how marines get around that they should come free with certain units, and other units should have free drop pods.

So the same with all other armies transports right?

So Aspect Warriors get free Falcons / Wave Serpents
Sisters get free Immolators
Orks Speed Freaks get free Trukks

etc

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
Gosh I hope rhinos are viable in new edition .

Me too!

Tactical marines are supposed to ride around in metal boxes.

Assault marines have the option to ride around in metal boxes.

Other genetically altered super soldiers wearing power armor (e.g., Khorne Berserkers) have the option to ride around in metal boxes.

Metal boxes need to be viable.

I feel like they're so basic and self-evidently a part of how marines get around that they should come free with certain units, and other units should have free drop pods.

So the same with all other armies transports right?

So Aspect Warriors get free Falcons / Wave Serpents
Sisters get free Immolators
Orks Speed Freaks get free Trukks

etc

Trukks, yeah. Immolators aren't primarily a transport vehicle. It's a weapon's platform. It's the Sister Razorback. While iconic, it is its own weapon, not a self evident part of a sisters unit. A standard Sister unit doesn't even fit in it. Maybe as a free include to an expensive elite unit, sure.

 Purifier wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
Gosh I hope rhinos are viable in new edition .

Me too!

Tactical marines are supposed to ride around in metal boxes.

Assault marines have the option to ride around in metal boxes.

Other genetically altered super soldiers wearing power armor (e.g., Khorne Berserkers) have the option to ride around in metal boxes.

Metal boxes need to be viable.

I feel like they're so basic and self-evidently a part of how marines get around that they should come free with certain units, and other units should have free drop pods.

So the same with all other armies transports right?

So Aspect Warriors get free Falcons / Wave Serpents
Sisters get free Immolators
Orks Speed Freaks get free Trukks

etc

Trukks, yeah. Immolators aren't primarily a transport vehicle. It's a weapon's platform. It's the Sister Razorback. While iconic, it is its own weapon, not a self evident part of a sisters unit. A standard Sister unit doesn't even fit in it. Maybe as a free include to an expensive elite unit, sure.

So Sisters get free Rhinos - right?
Guard free Chimera's

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
Gosh I hope rhinos are viable in new edition .

Me too!

Tactical marines are supposed to ride around in metal boxes.

Assault marines have the option to ride around in metal boxes.

Other genetically altered super soldiers wearing power armor (e.g., Khorne Berserkers) have the option to ride around in metal boxes.

Metal boxes need to be viable.

I feel like they're so basic and self-evidently a part of how marines get around that they should come free with certain units, and other units should have free drop pods.

So the same with all other armies transports right?

So Aspect Warriors get free Falcons / Wave Serpents
Sisters get free Immolators
Orks Speed Freaks get free Trukks

etc

Trukks, yeah. Immolators aren't primarily a transport vehicle. It's a weapon's platform. It's the Sister Razorback. While iconic, it is its own weapon, not a self evident part of a sisters unit. A standard Sister unit doesn't even fit in it. Maybe as a free include to an expensive elite unit, sure.

So Sisters get free Rhinos - right?
Guard free Chimera's

No, only for SM desu

I would assume that non-walkers would omit a Strength characteristic, or at least have 0 attacks in CC. Possibly a tank-shock or Ram would include something to do with the vehicles Str vs T.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
Gosh I hope rhinos are viable in new edition .

Me too!

Tactical marines are supposed to ride around in metal boxes.

Assault marines have the option to ride around in metal boxes.

Other genetically altered super soldiers wearing power armor (e.g., Khorne Berserkers) have the option to ride around in metal boxes.

Metal boxes need to be viable.

I feel like they're so basic and self-evidently a part of how marines get around that they should come free with certain units, and other units should have free drop pods.

So the same with all other armies transports right?

So Aspect Warriors get free Falcons / Wave Serpents
Sisters get free Immolators
Orks Speed Freaks get free Trukks

etc

Trukks, yeah. Immolators aren't primarily a transport vehicle. It's a weapon's platform. It's the Sister Razorback. While iconic, it is its own weapon, not a self evident part of a sisters unit. A standard Sister unit doesn't even fit in it. Maybe as a free include to an expensive elite unit, sure.

So Sisters get free Rhinos - right?
Guard free Chimera's

An argument could be made that a full strengh squad could qualify for a free transport. Perhaps limitations or qualifiers could be in place for free transports. Such as, the unit must be a Troops choice, must be at full strength, must cost over a certain total value, may only choose X and Y as the free transport, must remove Jump Packs (a la Assault Squads in 5th Ed)


Edit: Obviously, where a unit's max size exceeds the transport's capacity (Ork Boyz, 10-30 models, Trukks carry 12) the qualifier would change to something like "If the unit has 12 or less models and X, they may take a Trukk for free, otherwise must pay"

Ok as long as its not just another

"marines get free stuff screw everyone else"

- again

Drop Pods with Dreadnaughts are my favorite way of taking the heat off my TWC and other mobile units.
Rhinos being able to dump charging infantry on the enemy's doorstep is definitely something I'm definitely looking forwards to but they still don't have the impact of a pair of Dreads saying G'day on the first turn.
If the Pod formations go belly up I'll happily nab the sales on ebay.

I think the scatter dice is gone?

Wonder how they are going to balance out deep strike placement. Obvs. this could have major impacts on drop pods.

I'd like to see the humble rhino get a boost - I have three.

Drop Pods were simply the most undercosted transports in the whole game.

So, as GW said they're going to recost everything, it's quite clear that Drop Pods will not remain vastly better than Rhinos for the same price.

As they said, no more "riptides", so clearly, no more 100%hit-AV12/3HP-AutoComeInTurnOne-35point transports.

 Purifier wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
Gosh I hope rhinos are viable in new edition .

Me too!

Tactical marines are supposed to ride around in metal boxes.

Assault marines have the option to ride around in metal boxes.

Other genetically altered super soldiers wearing power armor (e.g., Khorne Berserkers) have the option to ride around in metal boxes.

Metal boxes need to be viable.

I feel like they're so basic and self-evidently a part of how marines get around that they should come free with certain units, and other units should have free drop pods.

Why free? I can see an argument for a mandatory transport, but not for a free one.
Many units in the game come with a sergeant option, but many others always come with one. And this mandatory sarge isn't free. If certain units always come with a transport (the codex entry listing a 5-man squad + a rhino as the basic composition), then they should definitely cost 5x the price of a guy + the price of the transport when it's taken by itself. Or the codex entry could just say "this unit must buy a dedicated transport".

You know after it arrives the Drop Pod is a 35 point, fragile, short-ranged turret right? Move away from them and they're unlikely to chase you.

Once Skyhammer goes the way of the dodo half rounded up arriving first will be literally the only thing they will have going for them.