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If I put a unit with Deep Strike (or Outflank) in Reserves, and declare them to be Deep Striking (or Outflanking), are you allowed to change how they come on? Can they choose to walk on as normal after they have sat in Reserves for a turn or 2? Or are they required to come in via the method you have told your opponent?

This is a slight off-shoot of the previous thread regarding the Monolith portal and Deep Strike Reserves, and while it may have some bearing on that discussion, it was locked for a reason. So please leave that topic at the door.

Deep striking is a special rule. Read the entire rule.

It consists of starting with deep strike reserve.
And ending with you placing them, by arriving by deep strike.
I don't know of any other deploying special rules, so there would be nothing with precedence to circumvent following deep strike to the letter once you have started to use it.

Ceann wrote:
Deep striking is a special rule. Read the entire rule.

It consists of starting with deep strike reserve.
And ending with you placing them, by arriving by deep strike.
I don't know of any other deploying special rules, so there would be nothing with precedence to circumvent following deep strike to the letter once you have started to use it.

I have read the rules. My question is "If I say this unit is Deep Striking, can (when they arrive from reserves) change my mind and have them walk on?" The same question can be asked regarding Outflank, only instead of walking on, it would be arrive from their table edge instead of the side edges.

 Happyjew wrote:

Ceann wrote:
Deep striking is a special rule. Read the entire rule.

It consists of starting with deep strike reserve.
And ending with you placing them, by arriving by deep strike.
I don't know of any other deploying special rules, so there would be nothing with precedence to circumvent following deep strike to the letter once you have started to use it.

I have read the rules. My question is "If I say this unit is Deep Striking, can (when they arrive from reserves) change my mind and have them walk on?" The same question can be asked regarding Outflank, only instead of walking on, it would be arrive from their table edge instead of the side edges.

The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

Otherwise the rules are silent on the issue. So a unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.


This discussion winds up being very pertinent to Flying Monstrous Creatures since they are FAQed to have the Deep Strike special rule and have multiple choices on how to enter play.

 Happyjew wrote:

Ceann wrote:
Deep striking is a special rule. Read the entire rule.

It consists of starting with deep strike reserve.
And ending with you placing them, by arriving by deep strike.
I don't know of any other deploying special rules, so there would be nothing with precedence to circumvent following deep strike to the letter once you have started to use it.

I have read the rules. My question is "If I say this unit is Deep Striking, can (when they arrive from reserves) change my mind and have them walk on?" The same question can be asked regarding Outflank, only instead of walking on, it would be arrive from their table edge instead of the side edges.

You cannot choose to partially use a special rule.
I don't know of any circumstance where you can.

If you already initiated the rule, I would say you have to follow it through to its completion, you cannot use half or a portion of a rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

Ceann wrote:
Deep striking is a special rule. Read the entire rule.

It consists of starting with deep strike reserve.
And ending with you placing them, by arriving by deep strike.
I don't know of any other deploying special rules, so there would be nothing with precedence to circumvent following deep strike to the letter once you have started to use it.

I have read the rules. My question is "If I say this unit is Deep Striking, can (when they arrive from reserves) change my mind and have them walk on?" The same question can be asked regarding Outflank, only instead of walking on, it would be arrive from their table edge instead of the side edges.

The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

Otherwise the rules are silent on the issue. So a unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.


This discussion winds up being very pertinent to Flying Monstrous Creatures since they are FAQed to have the Deep Strike special rule and have multiple choices on how to enter play.

Being "silent" on a rule is not permission to decide what it does. It never states you have the option to bring them in another way.
Therefore you do not.

Deepstrike is a special rule, your beloved "infantry standards" have no precedence.
Neither do any other form of rule other than a special rule that contradicts deepstrike, which would have to be a labeled special rule in a codex.

Ceann wrote:


Being "silent" on a rule is not permission to decide what it does. It never states you have the option to bring them in another way.
Therefore you do not.

Incorrect. The infantry permission is there. You have to show that the permission has been explicitly eradicated by having the Deep Strike special rule, otherwise the unit simply elects to use that permission. Remember a unit that has Deep Strike and is nominating itself to Deep Strike at the beginning of the game is simultaneously in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves and so has both ways of arriving from Reserves available.

Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn.

No, because you chose to use the deep strike rule.
Deep strike is a special rule.
Deploying from reserves is not

Walking onto the board conflicts with deep striking.
Therefore you cannot walk onto the board.
The permission can be there all it wants, it doesn't have precedence and is overridden by deep strike.

Anything else you have to say on this is word soup and your normal literary sorcerer to try to bend the rules.

Ceann wrote:
No, because you chose to use the deep strike rule.
Deep strike is a special rule.
Deploying from reserves is not

Walking onto the board conflicts with deep striking.
Therefore you cannot walk onto the board.
The permission can be there all it wants, it doesn't have precedence and is overridden by deep strike.

Anything else you have to say on this is word soup and your normal literary sorcerer to try to bend the rules.

So A Flying Monstrous Creature is forced to Deep Strike onto the board?

An FMC is FAQd to have Deep Strike special rule. So this special rule overrides all other methods of arriving on the battlefield for the FMC?


Further, a unit that has Deep Strike and tells the opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike is placed in both Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves and so still has the option of arriving from Reserves.

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

Having the rule and using the rule are two different things.

If you have told your opponent that FMC will be arriving by deep strike. Then it does.

If you did not tell them it would arrive by deep strike, then it does not.

You cannot decide to change its deployment method from deep strike to something else.

 Happyjew wrote:
If I put a unit with Deep Strike (or Outflank) in Reserves, and declare them to be Deep Striking (or Outflanking), are you allowed to change how they come on? Can they choose to walk on as normal after they have sat in Reserves for a turn or 2? Or are they required to come in via the method you have told your opponent?

This is a slight off-shoot of the previous thread regarding the Monolith portal and Deep Strike Reserves, and while it may have some bearing on that discussion, it was locked for a reason. So please leave that topic at the door.

I will put it this way: Without instructions from a codex special rule that allow you to override the decision made in Reserves, I would say that you cannot change their situation. There are several indications that once you make a Reserves commitment. No rules exist allowing you to change a unit's method of Arriving from Reserves once it has been declared.

One place for precedence on this is how Independent Character rules interact with joining a unit in Reserves. Once joined, its joined until the unit is deployed and cannot leave it. However, I will note that it is a specific instruction.

Two good examples of this situation are Tau Stealth Suits and Flayed Ones with a Monolith on the board.

Tau Stealth Suits have Deep Strike as part of their Unit Type, and come with Infiltrate. So, they can Deep Strike, Outflank, or walk on from Reserves like a normal unit. Once you declare one of these methods, they have no method of changing it.

Flayed Ones have both the Deep Strike and Infiltrate Special Rules, so can do the same things in regards to Reserves. However, a Monolith can pull them out of Reserves with the Eternity Gate. This method is not mentioned as arriving from Reserves, but as Disembarking from the Monolith. It doesn't care how the original method of Reserves Arrival was announced, as it completely overrides Arriving From Reserves. Both Deep Strike and Outflank are a method of Arriving From Reserves, just as much as walking on from Reserves. The only reason it is allowed is because the Eternity Gate is in a codex and its rules take precedence over any BRB rule.

Ceann wrote:
Having the rule and using the rule are two different things.

If you have told your opponent that FMC will be arriving by deep strike. Then it does.

If you did not tell them it would arrive by deep strike, then it does not.

You cannot decide to change its deployment method from deep strike to something else.

The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via other means. Those other options are still completely available and have not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping options open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.

Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.

You have to follow the entire rule Col.

Not just the first part of it and ignore the rest.

Ceann wrote:
You have to follow the entire rule Col.

Not just the first part of it and ignore the rest.

I am free to follow whatever options the rules leave open.

Outflank removes options. Deep Strike does not. A unit that announces that it will arrive via Deep Strike is placed in both Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:
You have to follow the entire rule Col.

Not just the first part of it and ignore the rest.

I am free to follow whatever options the rules leave open.

No, you are only allowed to do what the rules give you permission to do

The rules don't tell you you can change how you come in from reserves so you do not have permission to

Please cite a rule that provides permission to do so

 CrownAxe wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:
You have to follow the entire rule Col.

Not just the first part of it and ignore the rest.

I am free to follow whatever options the rules leave open.

No, you are only allowed to do what the rules give you permission to do

The rules don't tell you you can change how you come in from reserves so you do not have permission to

Please cite a rule that provides permission to do so

Sure no problem.

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.

Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn.

Outflank takes away the above permission. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

An apple is an apple and an orange is an orange.
Outflank is it's own special rule with its own procedure.
One has nothing to do with the other.

You are deep striking, not outflanking.
Outflank tells you how to arrive, for outflank.

Deep strike has like 3 paragraphs that tell you how to arrive, for deep striking.

You are grasping at straws just so you can be "right".

You are quoting a basic rule to allow you to move on as normal.
You cannot use a basic rule, the unit has a USR on its Army List Entry called deep strike.
The basic rule is ignored.

You are TOLD by Deep Strike, how to deploy them. This is the only way they can be deployed.
Special rule has precedence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you
would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a
vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must
continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.

• Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be
placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When
the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model
touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit.

• Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.

Ceann,

Thanks for quoting the Deep Strike rules but they are not relevant here since the unit is not Deep Striking. The unit chooses to arrive by walking on battlefield when rolling for reserves. The unit is both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves at the same time and the option to walk on has not been removed.

Look at the Outflank special rule for an example of a special rule that removes the option to walk on.

Choosing to walk onto the field conflicts with the resolution of the deep strike rule. You have to follow the entire rule not just the first part of the rule.

Walking onto the field is a basic rule and is not located in the codex. Deep Strike will be on the Army List entry as a special rule.

You are told how to deploy and that is the only way you can deploy. You are reading only the first part of the rule and ignoring the rest, you cannot partially use a special rule.

The matter is settled and all you will do is ignore the rules and only read the part relevant to the outcome you desire, that is your modus operandi.

Ceann wrote:
Choosing to walk onto the field conflicts with the resolution of the deep strike rule. You have to follow the entire rule not just the first part of the rule.

Walking onto the field is a basic rule and is not located in the codex. Deep Strike will be on the Army List entry as a special rule.

You are told how to deploy and that is the only way you can deploy. You are reading only the first part of the rule and ignoring the rest, you cannot partially use a special rule.

The matter is settled and all you will do is ignore the rules and only read the part relevant to the outcome you desire, that is your modus operandi.

I am reading the entirety of the Deep Strike rule. I don't have permission to invoke portions of rules that are not invoked by the rules. When the unit chooses to walk on the battlefield instead of Deep Striking the second half of the Deep Strike special rule is simply never invoked. They explicitly made it so a unit is in both Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves at the same time, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves. If the unit somehow winds up in Ongoing Reserves it will again have the choice of Deep Striking or walking on the board.

"then deploy them as follows"

You missed that part.

Ceann wrote:
"then deploy them as follows"

You missed that part.

You are missing the part that the Deep Strike special does not remove the permission granted to all models to walk on from from Reserves. The unit simply chooses to walk on from Reserves instead of Deep Striking and therefore does not invoke the rules for Deep Striking.

Check out Outflank for a special rule that actually removes the permission to walk on from Reserves.

Wrong.

Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:

This is the entire process, you cannot bring them the field.
You must deploy them as follows.

Deploy them as follows is an absolute, not a choice.
It does not say you MAY deploy them as follows.

Ceann wrote:
Wrong.

Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:

This is the entire process, you cannot bring them the field.
You must deploy them as follows.

Deploy them as follows is an absolute, not a choice.
It does not say you MAY deploy them as follows.

The unit in question is not going to be Deep Striking. The unit is going to be walking on from Reserves. So the process for 'Deep Striking units' simply does not apply.

If you placed the unit in deep strike reserves then it will be deep striking.

If you didn't place it in deep strike reserves then the point is moot.

You cannot place it in deep strike reserves and then walk it onto the board.
Because then you are only following part of the rule. The rule is the entire process, from being put into reserves to the point the models resolve a deep strike.
Arriving by deep strike is part of the deep strike rule.

Ceann wrote:
If you placed the unit in deep strike reserves then it will be deep striking.

If you didn't place it in deep strike reserves then the point is moot.

You place the unit in Deep Strike Reserves so that it is 'able to Deep Strike'.

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

Placing the unit in Deep Strike Reserves does not lock in the unit to be Deep Striking. It merely enables the unit to be able to Deep Strike (if it so chooses).

Since the unit is in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves then the unit still retains the permission of simply walking on the battlefield.

Outflank takes away the permission to walk on the battlefield. Deep Strike does not.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

As noted in the above rule, only some units that have the Deep Strike special rule must arrive by Deep Strike. In the case of the specific case of a unit that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' then the issue is settled. But, we are not dealing with this specific case.

Oh is this another lets see how many pages we get till the thread is locked?

GodDamUser wrote:
Oh is this another lets see how many pages we get till the thread is locked?

Considering how much I know one of them doesn't bother to listen to what another says, and the other one is insistent on trying to convince them, apparently.

I know my own life has gotten quieter after setting one of them to Ignore.

GodDamUser wrote:
Oh is this another lets see how many pages we get till the thread is locked?

I simply read the rules and argue based on what the rules actually say and not on what I want them to say.

Arguments that are based purely on the Rules As Written aren't always popular and often elicit a knee-jerk response from others.

So lots of pages of back-and-forth can be used up by the action of me simply pointing to others where their counter arguments aren't supported by any rules or aren't in accordance with what they rules actually say.

If people paused and checked thoroughly on what the rules actually say before posting on any given thread then a lot of back-and-forth could be spared.

col_impact wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:
Oh is this another lets see how many pages we get till the thread is locked?

I simply read the rules and argue based on what the rules actually say and not on what I want them to say.

Arguments that are based purely on the Rules As Written aren't always popular and often elicit a knee-jerk response from others.

So lots of pages of back-and-forth can be used up by the action of me simply pointing to others where their counter arguments aren't supported by any rules or aren't in accordance with what they rules actually say.

If people paused and checked thoroughly on what the rules actually say before posting on any given thread then a lot of back-and-forth could be spared.

You are just reading the rules incorrectly though.

It's why you are always the only person to be on your side of the argument. You're the one at fault

 CrownAxe wrote:

col_impact wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:
Oh is this another lets see how many pages we get till the thread is locked?

I simply read the rules and argue based on what the rules actually say and not on what I want them to say.

Arguments that are based purely on the Rules As Written aren't always popular and often elicit a knee-jerk response from others.

So lots of pages of back-and-forth can be used up by the action of me simply pointing to others where their counter arguments aren't supported by any rules or aren't in accordance with what they rules actually say.

If people paused and checked thoroughly on what the rules actually say before posting on any given thread then a lot of back-and-forth could be spared.

You are just reading the rules incorrectly though.

It's why you are always the only person to be on your side of the argument. You're the one at fault

Feel free to point out any shortcomings in my argument. You can't just say 'you are just reading the rules incorrectly'.

You need to provide proof with rules citations or at least a compelling well-thought out argument. I am open to anything educated and substantiated you have to say about my argument.



A rules debate is not a popularity contest. The correct answer is not necessarily going to be the popular answer. In fact, since people tend to gang up on things they view as OP and tend to have uneducated opinions, the correct Rules As Writtten argument is often unpopular.

A person who is more concerned with popularity than with truth shouldn't be debating rules or acting as a judge with regards to the rules. Educated truth is more important than uneducated opinion.


I am open to anything educated and substantiated you have to offer on the issue at hand.