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Most army lists for Flames of War specify Sd Kfz 250 or 251 models throughout.
Now the Sd Kfz 250 was normally intended for recon and only appears in recon lists, but is there any harm in mixing up the different halftracks for variety. Both use identical stats and can carry exactly the same specialised loadouts. I want to place some command units and the mortar teams in the smaller halftracks, it sounds reasonable for senior units like Panzergrenadiers to get whatever equipment they can, but did this actually happen? Ks there evidence of Sd Kfz 250 and Sd Kfz 251 models being used in the same company sized unit.

Most people would not even notice, and even if they do most people would not care. The sort of "bolt counter" historical gamer who argues about such details probably isn't playing FOW anyway.

Using the wrong vehicle isnt truly rivet counter over attention.
Wrong unit markings, wrong exhaust type, yeah that gos too far, but wrong vehicle becomes relevant for the most part. I wonder if any panzerwaffe history buffs know the answer.

Research on the details is worthwhile, nt just for histry but becaus it can make things easier for gamers. When I assembled my M4A3 Shermans for my US armoured Company there were enough turrets PSC 76mm Sherman set for 5x 75mm and 5x 76mm turrets, but only chassis and turret butles for fie vehicles.. However research showed that turret bustles were almost entirely interchangable, with photo evidence of real field repaired tanks from the Normandy period, so I could use some spare 'wrong' turret bustles mixed in and have all ten turrets for five chassis while keeping historically accurate. My 76mm turrets are drop in options and the tanks are historically accurate despite the kitbsh.

Al i really need is one firm instance of company level interchangability and I am free to mix them up. I would prefer to buy one box of 250's and three boxes of 251's for my Pnazergrenardiers rather than four boxes all the same.
However 250's are intended for recon units, and I have no idea how strict the organisation was in this regard.

 Orlanth wrote:
Using the wrong vehicle isnt truly rivet counter over attention. Wrong unit markings, wrong exhaust type, yeah that gos too far, but wrong vehicle becomes relevant for the most part.

We are not talking about using Panzer II models as King Tigers here, or using a mix of Sherman V and Firefly V tanks in an all Sherman platoon. Two German armored halftracks, very similar in appearance on the tabletop. Yes, you should properly use one or the other, depending on the unit involved, but anyone who actually complains about it is IMO being rather petty. Even if they realize the difference between the two, in gamer terms they are the same so its not like it causes confusion for your opponent.

Research on the details is worthwhile, nt just for histry but becaus it can make things easier for gamers.

I agree... for myself. I enjoy digging into the history of the units I am playing, making sure I have proper markings and use the right equipment. Not everyone is as interested in the history aspect of the game, however, and that's alright.

Orlanth

The 250 was always scarce (more so than 251s) and would rarely be used outside the recce companies as it carried less men.

However I have seen on occasion some German recce battalions being issued 251s to replace 250s but it's not a common occurrence.

All German SPWs were scarce so tended to be used as intended on the whole.

But no reason your 'kampfgruppe' couldn't have a mix of troops from one of the Panzer-Grenadier battalions and the recce battalion working together.

 mdauben wrote:


..... Even if they realize the difference between the two, in gamer terms they are the same so its not like it causes confusion for your opponent.

Ok, my concern here is that I am not using 250's as 251's for a scenario for convenience, that would be absurdly petty to complain about. I would be happy for someone to even have the models to be reasonably say 'I can field Panzerpioneer for your mission' getting the exact models would just be icing.

I am looking to purposely mix in 250's and 251's for variety at point of purchase.

Big P wrote:
Orlanth
The 250 was always scarce (more so than 251s) and would rarely be used outside the recce companies as it carried less men.

The way FoW works the infantry are allocated to specific vehicles. So Gepanzete Panzergrenardier platoon has eight men in each half track but only three in the command vehicle.
That seems ok, as the stands of infantry would probably in actuality be evened out between th four. But at Company command level having huge 251's for a couple of three man stands seems odd. I wonder if I could use 250's for command vehicles, or for say the mortar section partly for variety and partly to identify them.

Big P wrote:

All German SPWs were scarce so tended to be used as intended on the whole.

Which is why I dont like the all or nothing army lists in FoW. Outside of Panzer Lehr no unit had a full allocation of halftracks. The rules allow Kfz 70 trucks for isolated platoons in Gepanzerte companies, I went as far as to buy plastic Opel Blitz instead, only one list the Devils Charge 2nd division Panzergrenardiers allow Opel Blitz mounted Panzergrens in a halftrack list., however it was known to be common method of bringing up reinforcement platoons. There is no difference in game between Kfz 70 and Opel Blitz, and I take them and for theme used two vehicles rather than the full four.

By 1945 elite units were robbing servicable equipment from other units to keep mobile or maintain combat effectiveness, mixing halftracks in 1945 scenarios needs no explanation. But I am wondering if I can extend that to Normandy lists



But no reason your 'kampfgruppe' couldn't have a mix of troops from one of the Panzer-Grenadier battalions and the recce battalion working together.

A Kfz 70 and Blitz are roughly the same size.

A 250 is about 50-60% the length of a 251.

I have no problems if you want to give your recon troops 251s instead of 250s or if you want to mix and match 251Cs and 251Ds. You could even add in a pilfered M2/M3/M5 halftrack. Once you start trying to use 250s for 251s though, one or 2 would be ok for variety/flavor, but if you're doing it extensively you've not got a unit with a smaller footprint which is easier to hide behind cover.

didnt think of that, using 251C's as the variety sounds like a plan, Atlantic Wall forces could well have older equipment mixed in with newer, and it means variety amongst 20 halftracks without having to use the 250 chassis.

cannonfodr wrote:
A Kfz 70 and Blitz are roughly the same size.

A 250 is about 50-60% the length of a 251.

I have no problems if you want to give your recon troops 251s instead of 250s or if you want to mix and match 251Cs and 251Ds. You could even add in a pilfered M2/M3/M5 halftrack. Once you start trying to use 250s for 251s though, one or 2 would be ok for variety/flavor, but if you're doing it extensively you've not got a unit with a smaller footprint which is easier to hide behind cover.

I remembered it's much more than 50%. Measured little more than 80%.

Since proxying smaller vehicles with larger ones seems to be unpopular wht not start with the Gepanzete Aufklarungs list and swap out 250s for 251s.

The Gepanzete Aufklarungs list is almost identical to the Gepanzete Panzergrenadier one anyhow.

I have decided to buy 3x Sd Kfz 251 D boxsets and 1x Sd Kfz 251 C boxset. This means of my 20 Hanomags, five a different, this consitutes a sufficient level of distinction. I might buy a seperate sprue Sd Kfz 250 and use it for the CO as a way of distinguishing it. Using 250's as command vehicles is historical.

My list

Company HQ
OC, 2iC and Panzershreck, 3x Sd Kfz 251

2x Panzergrenardier platoons
Command, 6x MG infantry, 1x Sd KFz (3,7), 3x Sd Kfz 251

Heavy Platoon
Commnd, 4x HMG infantry, 3x Sd Kfz 251, 2x Sd Kfz (7,5)

Flamethrower Platoon
2x 3x Sd Kfz 251 (flamm)

AT Platoon
Command, 2x Pak 40, 2x Sd Kfz 251
- According to the basic list I can buy up to the number of transports equal to the number of stands, I think a separate command transport is a waste and don't buy it.

As a general rule I would like the command units to travel with the troops, the 3,7cm gun armed halftracks are an exception as they have a clear function of themselves.

The above core list will have extra including an Opel Blitz carried reserve panzergrenardier platoon, four Stg III's, and some Pumas and a Tiger.

I can mix this up some more if I make a specialist list. .2 Division from Devils Charge looks good, but there is an awful lot of 'codex creep' beyond the generic lists. there is a lot to cater for.

Functionally, the 251 was substituted in for the 250 in the field a lot of the time (ah, in those rare cases the guys weren't unarmoured trucks or horse drawn carts...), with production gearing up to discontinue the 250 at the factories as well. However, both models were about to be transitioned out near the end of the war any way (in the form of various 38(d) carriers, or the sWS Schwerer Wehrmachtschlepper).

Yes, if you're running an infantry unit a 251 would be more common. If it includes an armoured element then those could be 250s, but not necessarily. For a commander you could get away with a 250, as on the battlefield it'd be less useful due to its size, as would it presumably have a decent radio as standard (at least if it were kitted out for a recce role, rather than out of the factory as an ammunition carrier, etc - but the same would go for the 251 I guess ...barring late time production where anything goes).

The Germans did use some converted French half tracks which had a similar look to the 251, along with the aforementioned sWS Schwerer Wehrmachtschlepper. The latter didn't get a personnel carrier variant in time for the end of the war however, though chucking some guys in the back of the supply version plus some bolted on armoured plates would work. ...I guess that might be a bit too much work for the scale however.

I have problems with command 251's in late war. Its an extravagence the Third Reich couldn't afford and is against the doctrines of the army. Radio variants, yes, cannon variants yes, but just a 251/1 as a command vehicle. No, I just don't think so, they would fill it with soldiers and add the CO and aide on top of that.

From what I've stirred up the 251 was issued as a command variant to more specialized units, like AA gunners. There was one made in the early part of the war which seems to have been intended for wider use. Late in the war you'd be seeing all sorts of things, and well, besides the trucks there were also unarmoured busses, field cars, etc chucking about. The 250 is probably more of the stereotypical commander's vehicle (Rommel used one...), but well, other than if you're going for a historical unit, there's no reason not to say that the force sourced the vehicle from x, y, z location (hell there were plenty of interwar tanks still serving on the Eastern Front and secondary areas like Normandy by 1944).

One thing about German units... none of them seem to be typical or following the KtsN tables for the proscribed issue of vehicles!

Even the returns are not always reliable as units didn't have to count vehicles they deemed 'obselete'...

 Wyrmalla wrote:
There was one made in the early part of the war which seems to have been intended for wider use. Late in the war you'd be seeing all sorts of things, and well, besides the trucks there were also unarmoured busses, field cars, etc chucking about.

Frankly Panzergrenardiers should be allowed to mix gepanzerte and lorried platoons.

Well yeah, wargaming rules can be overly stringent. Bolt Action is the same with its theatre selectors. In the modern world Western Armies are a bit stricter on what they use (..sort of), but back 70 years ago anything went. "Hey that Panzer II there's obsolete, sorry you're going to have to throw it away" - three years later and the thing's still chugging along with some poor sods.

Though I really can't have an opinion on this when I'm posting fictional tanks in my own thread.

Well that Panzer II would likely be turned into a Luchs or a Wespe.

Germans were good at recycling obsolete vehicles and making good use of them.

Wespes werent rebuilt Panzer IIs... they had an extra wheel for a longer hull. Like the Luchs they were production vehicles.


That Panzer II could still be a Panzer II...

And that Hetzer is a Hetzer. Nice picture.

I love the Hetzer, pity I cant find it in any lists. When I was at Salute some of the guys I was sitting with told me why they hate FoW, mainly because in their opinion Battlefront airbrushed out vehicles they did not sell models for. I have been thinking about this and wonder that it may be a fair critique.

No Hetzer?

But... Its in so many formations. Some Volksgrenadier Divisions had them in their Panzerjager.

How odd not too include them.

To find lists for a specific tank go to https://forces.flamesofwar.com (register for free if not registered) and click on the "Find Companies for a given item".
There is quite a number of lists for Hetzer.