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Made in es
Fresh-Faced New User




Hello!
So today I was playing an 8000 points game in teams (me playing nids, allied with astra militarum, vs ultramarines and space wolves, 2000 points each player), and the ultramarines player got VoD. So he started spamming it all around and then, it got flyers under the template, so we told him flyers weren't affected by templates. But he insisted as the vortex rule says ALL MINIATURES under the template get hit. So, which one is right? Can VoD hit flyers? Or are they unnafected as it is a template?
Thanks!
Edit: Also, the same but for Monstuous Flying Creatures, as it does not implicitly say in the rulebook that they can't get hit by them, only says that firing at them against them will always be with bs1.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/29 20:58:42


 
   
Made in us
Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar




SwarmHead wrote:
Hello!
So today I was playing an 8000 points game in teams (me playing nids, allied with astra militarum, vs ultramarines and space wolves, 2000 points each player), and the ultramarines player got VoD. So he started spamming it all around and then, it got flyers under the template, so we told him flyers weren't affected by templates. But he insisted as the vortex rule says ALL MINIATURES under the template get hit. So, which one is right? Can VoD hit flyers? Or are they unnafected as it is a template?
Thanks!
Edit: Also, the same but for Monstuous Flying Creatures, as it does not implicitly say in the rulebook that they can't get hit by them, only says that firing at them against them will always be with bs1.


Here is the issue.
You are required measure the template range from the models base.
The flyer isn't actually on the models base, like an Infantry would be, it is above its base.

So if you measure 3" from the vortex on the flyers base, do they touch?
Nope.

Since you have to measure from the base, or as close to the base as possible, is the flyer UNDER the template?
Nope.

There are multiple reasons why it wouldn't hit the flyer without even talking about hard to hit.
   
Made in es
Fresh-Faced New User




Even if it is a hive tyrant with wings? It is in contact with its base.
   
Made in us
Second Story Man





Astonished of Heck

SwarmHead wrote:
Hello!
So today I was playing an 8000 points game in teams (me playing nids, allied with astra militarum, vs ultramarines and space wolves, 2000 points each player), and the ultramarines player got VoD. So he started spamming it all around and then, it got flyers under the template, so we told him flyers weren't affected by templates. But he insisted as the vortex rule says ALL MINIATURES under the template get hit. So, which one is right? Can VoD hit flyers? Or are they unnafected as it is a template?
Thanks!
Edit: Also, the same but for Monstuous Flying Creatures, as it does not implicitly say in the rulebook that they can't get hit by them, only says that firing at them against them will always be with bs1.

Vortex of Doom is a Blast Weapon. Vortex does nothing for changing which models are hit.

Flyers with Hard To Hit cannot be hit by Blast Weapons. If we go by the GW FAQ, Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures cannot be hit with Blast or Template Weapons which do not target them. Unless you have Skyfire, you cannot even target a Swooping or Zooming Flyer with a Blast Weapon.

So, looks like it is safe.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Q: Do Blast weapons hit Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures?
A: No.


Hard to Hit
Zooming Flyers are incredibly difficult targets for troops without suitably calibrated weapons and scopes. Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule). Template and Blast weapons, and any other attacks that don’t roll To Hit, cannot hit Zooming Flyers.
   
Made in us
Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar




SwarmHead wrote:
Even if it is a hive tyrant with wings? It is in contact with its base.


The key difference, which I don't see that you pointed out, I may have missed it.

Is whether said flyer was swooping/zooming or hovering.
If you are not swooping/zooming then you can be hit by a template.
Hovering counts as a skimmer, which can be hit by them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/29 22:03:50


 
   
Made in es
Fresh-Faced New User




Ceann wrote:
SwarmHead wrote:
Even if it is a hive tyrant with wings? It is in contact with its base.


The key difference, which I don't see that you pointed out, I may have missed it.

Is whether said flyer was swooping/zooming or hovering.
If you are not swooping/zooming then you can be hit by a template.
Hovering counts as a skimmer, which can be hit by them.


Yep, it was swooping/zooming, that was why I told him he couldn't hit me with blasts. At the first turn, he used it against a Hive Tyrant that wasn't swooping so I didn't have any problem then. The problem came when I was swooping (and my allie's Vendetta zooming) and he insisted he could hit both of us with the VoD.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ceann wrote:


Here is the issue.
You are required measure the template range from the models base.
The flyer isn't actually on the models base, like an Infantry would be, it is above its base.

So if you measure 3" from the vortex on the flyers base, do they touch?
Nope.

Since you have to measure from the base, or as close to the base as possible, is the flyer UNDER the template?
Nope.


Ceann,

are you retracting the answer above? The answer you supplied above is misinformation.

As you now note, templates and blasts can hit gliding/hovering flyers. The arrangement of a flyer model on a base has nothing to do with whether or not the flyer can be hit by templates/blasts.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/29 22:12:54


 
   
Made in us
Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar




SwarmHead wrote:
Ceann wrote:
SwarmHead wrote:
Even if it is a hive tyrant with wings? It is in contact with its base.


The key difference, which I don't see that you pointed out, I may have missed it.

Is whether said flyer was swooping/zooming or hovering.
If you are not swooping/zooming then you can be hit by a template.
Hovering counts as a skimmer, which can be hit by them.


Yep, it was swooping/zooming, that was why I told him he couldn't hit me with blasts. At the first turn, he used it against a Hive Tyrant that wasn't swooping so I didn't have any problem then. The problem came when I was swooping (and my allie's Vendetta zooming) and he insisted he could hit both of us with the VoD.


The issue ultimately is that blast weapons have to roll to hit.
You cannot snapshoot blast weapons.
So you cannot shoot them at a flyer.
Which is why a flyer cannot be hit by them.

VoD makes a shooting attack and has blast profile.
Since it is making a shooting attack and you can't snapshoot it.
You can't fire at flyer.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ceann wrote:


The issue ultimately is that blast weapons have to roll to hit.
You cannot snapshoot blast weapons.
So you cannot shoot them at a swooping/zooming flyer.
Which is why a swooping/zooming flyer cannot be hit by them.


FTFY.


Just apply the rules below.

Q: Do Blast weapons hit Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures?
A: No.

Hard to Hit
Zooming Flyers are incredibly difficult targets for troops without suitably calibrated weapons and scopes. Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule). Template and Blast weapons, and any other attacks that don’t roll To Hit, cannot hit Zooming Flyers.
   
Made in us
Second Story Man





Astonished of Heck

Ceann wrote:
The issue ultimately is that blast weapons have to roll to hit.
You cannot snapshoot blast weapons.
So you cannot shoot them at a flyer.
Which is why a flyer cannot be hit by them.

Snapshot only helps if you are trying to target them. Blasts and templates can hit units that they are not targeting due to scattering or the template going past the target.

Zooming Flyers' Hard To Hit rule specifically states that Blast and Template Weapons cannot hit them, period, targeted or not, Skyfire or not.

The Swooping Flyers' Hard To Hit rule leaves that line out, so without using a judgement that the GW FAQ provides, a Blast or Template can hit them if it was targeted at something else or if it was fired by something with Skyfire. Even then, the GW FAQ does not address a Blast/Template Weapon with Skyfire that actually targets the Swooper.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/29 22:23:06


Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Charistoph wrote:


The Swooping Flyers' Hard To Hit rule leaves that line out, so without using a judgement that the GW FAQ provides, a Blast or Template can hit them if it was targeted at something else or if it was fired by something with Skyfire. Even then, the GW FAQ does not address a Blast/Template Weapon with Skyfire that actually targets the Swooper.


The FAQ addresses this.

Q: Can a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature or Zooming Flyer be targeted by a Blast or Template weapon with the Skyfire special rule?
A: No.
   
Made in us
Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar




 Charistoph wrote:
Ceann wrote:
The issue ultimately is that blast weapons have to roll to hit.
You cannot snapshoot blast weapons.
So you cannot shoot them at a flyer.
Which is why a flyer cannot be hit by them.

Snapshot only helps if you are trying to target them. Blasts and templates can hit units that they are not targeting due to scattering or the template going past the target.

Zooming Flyers' Hard To Hit rule specifically states that Blast and Template Weapons cannot hit them, period, targeted or not, Skyfire or not.

The Swooping Flyers' Hard To Hit rule leaves that line out, so without using a judgement that the GW FAQ provides, a Blast or Template can hit them if it was targeted at something else or if it was fired by something with Skyfire. Even then, the GW FAQ does not address a Blast/Template Weapon with Skyfire that actually targets the Swooper.


Per the weapon profiles...

"Remember that weapons with the Blast special rule cannot fire Snap Shots."

Hard to hit requires you to snapshoot.

The only real place with wiggle room would have been the rules for vortex, but it still has a blast profile and rolls to hit when it scatters.

And that was addressed actually.

Q: Can a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature or Zooming
Flyer be targeted by a Blast or Template weapon with the Skyfire
special rule?
A: No.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/29 22:28:59


 
   
Made in us
Second Story Man





Astonished of Heck

Ceann wrote:
Per the weapon profiles...

"Remember that weapons with the Blast special rule cannot fire Snap Shots."

Hard to hit requires you to snapshoot.

Snapshooting only happens if you are targetting the Vehicle. If it scatters, its not targeting what gets hit. That's why you can hit your own units when a Blast scatters, which you can no more target with a Blast Weapon than a target you have to snapshoot.

It is one of the methods of hitting Invisible units with Blast and Template Weapons. A challenge to set up, and may not always works as planned, but it does work.

Ceann wrote:The only real place with wiggle room would have been the rules for vortex, but it still has a blast profile and rolls to hit when it scatters.

You do not roll to hit when it scatters. You roll to see how far it scatters. With the exception of Zoomer and FAQ'd Swoopers, they hit everything under the marker.

Ceann wrote:And that was addressed actually.

Q: Can a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature or Zooming
Flyer be targeted by a Blast or Template weapon with the Skyfire
special rule?
A: No.

That's the GW FAQ I mentioned.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in us
Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar




 Charistoph wrote:
Ceann wrote:
Per the weapon profiles...

"Remember that weapons with the Blast special rule cannot fire Snap Shots."

Hard to hit requires you to snapshoot.

Snapshooting only happens if you are targetting the Vehicle. If it scatters, its not targeting what gets hit. That's why you can hit your own units when a Blast scatters, which you can no more target with a Blast Weapon than a target you have to snapshoot.

It is one of the methods of hitting Invisible units with Blast and Template Weapons. A challenge to set up, and may not always works as planned, but it does work.

Ceann wrote:The only real place with wiggle room would have been the rules for vortex, but it still has a blast profile and rolls to hit when it scatters.

You do not roll to hit when it scatters. You roll to see how far it scatters. With the exception of Zoomer and FAQ'd Swoopers, they hit everything under the marker.

Ceann wrote:And that was addressed actually.

Q: Can a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature or Zooming
Flyer be targeted by a Blast or Template weapon with the Skyfire
special rule?
A: No.

That's the GW FAQ I mentioned.


Not sure what you mean...

This is what you originally stated "Even then, the GW FAQ does not address a Blast/Template Weapon with Skyfire that actually targets the Swooper."

That Q/A is addressing a Swooper being targeted by a blast/template with skyfire.
Unless I am misunderstanding something here.
Was under the impression you were not aware of the FAQ, so I provided it, if you were then my apologies.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/29 23:08:02


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ceann wrote:

Here is the issue.
You are required measure the template range from the models base.
The flyer isn't actually on the models base, like an Infantry would be, it is above its base.

So if you measure 3" from the vortex on the flyers base, do they touch?
Nope.

Since you have to measure from the base, or as close to the base as possible, is the flyer UNDER the template?
Nope.

There are multiple reasons why it wouldn't hit the flyer without even talking about hard to hit.


To be clear, no one should follow this advice from Ceann. This is simply wrong information.
   
Made in us
Second Story Man





Astonished of Heck

Ceann wrote:
Not sure what you mean...

This is what you originally stated "Even then, the GW FAQ does not address a Blast/Template Weapon with Skyfire that actually targets the Swooper."

That Q/A is addressing a Swooper being targeted by a blast/template with skyfire.
Unless I am misunderstanding something here.
Was under the impression you were not aware of the FAQ, so I provided it, if you were then my apologies.

Nah, just goofed up a little. Happens here and there. I was looking at the one where where it talks about scattering.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
 
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