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News on the Shooting Phase:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/30/new-40k-shooting-phase-apr30gw-homepage-post-4/

The pistol thing makes sense fluff wise. Heavy weapons got a BIG buff. And i like the fact that cover save are gone.

What's your opinion on this?

In the new Warhammer 40,000, cover is a bonus to your armour save. Critically, this ability often only applies to certain types of unit. For example, only Infantry gain the bonus of cover from a crater.

This jumped out at me. I wish they had provided one more example to clarify.

You also can’t shoot if there is an enemy with 1″ of you. The exception to this rule is pistols. Models with these hand-held firearms can shoot at the closest enemy target in the Shooting phase, even if they themselves are locked in combat!

I assume this is over and above the hand-to-hand attacks. So dedicated CC troops should get 2 attack types. I wonder if one precludes the other. I guess we'll find out tomorrow when we see charging.

 3orangewhips wrote:

In the new Warhammer 40,000, cover is a bonus to your armour save. Critically, this ability often only applies to certain types of unit. For example, only Infantry gain the bonus of cover from a crater.

This jumped out at me. I wish they had provided one more example to clarify.

Yes me too. But i guess we will get terrain types such as ruins/building will grant a bonus to all units.

I hope theres something to mitigate the -to hit for tanks etc or the guard/orks/deldar(to a degree) and even (dare i say) tau are going to suffer a fair bit as most of there heavys are on armour of one sort or another.

The pistols in combat seems nothing more than a bone to marines of all types and sides as i cant think of an other army which routenly(spl) equips there grunts with pistols as well as main guns.

On cover there really isnt enough info to say more than they said.

Allright so no to hit modifiers but armour save modifiers like rogue trader (RPG). This I like, however we might just need those mortal wounds to kill off some cover shenanigan units ...


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Skullhammer wrote:
I hope theres something to mitigate the -to hit for tanks etc or the guard/orks/deldar(to a degree) and even (dare i say) tau are going to suffer a fair bit as most of there heavys are on armour of one sort or another.

The pistols in combat seems nothing more than a bone to marines of all types and sides as i cant think of an other army which routenly(spl) equips there grunts with pistols as well as main guns.

On cover there really isnt enough info to say more than they said.

ORKS! Slugga's are guns. : D
Also inquisition, and all sorts of other GEQ armies can equip all with guns currently.

They didn't say anything about only Infantry getting cover. They said only Infantry could gain cover from a crater. Big difference.

I like that cover is simply a modifier to your armor save. I still would have preferred a modifier on your To Hit roll, but this way still allows all units to benefit from cover, regardless of the AP/Rend of the weapon. Much better for everyone.

Plasma pistols are going to be great to have now; I may even put them on my Berzerker champions (cost depending, of course). Snap shots going away is nice, that was never a good rule. In fact, I like the idea that many aspects now have Modifiers, instead of certain actions/terrain giving you flat numbers to roll. Things are shaping up nicely for #new40k.

Also whytches. So allmost all armies use them : P

Fair enough oldzoggy but sluggers are it they dont come with a shoota at the same time i.e. marines bolt gun and pistol as to inquistion i've not read it.

Hope thats clearer.

I was hoping they would actually make players think but give them the "easy button" or even "easier button" this time around for shooting. Before when you had heavy weapons you had to think, move or shoot.

I will have to wait and see how this plays out. After all if it adds fun to the game, then no harm done but if it doesn't add fun to the game and just makes it an easier choice, we will leave the comments until then.

Davor wrote:
I was hoping they would actually make players think but give them the "easy button" or even "easier button" this time around for shooting. Before when you had heavy weapons you had to think, move or shoot.

I will have to wait and see how this plays out. After all if it adds fun to the game, then no harm done but if it doesn't add fun to the game and just makes it an easier choice, we will leave the comments until then.

It does allow for better movement of units such as Tacticals.

There are also a few weapons that ignore this bonus cover to armour effect – such as those wielded by Chaos Noise Marines

WE WILL DROWN THEM OUT!

If Tau Riptides weapons all still remain heavy then they will be nerfed a bit. SMS and HYMPs are all heavy as are the HBC and Ion. So this in and of itself is a nerf to riptides that everyone has been wanting. I think its stupid, but marker lights exist for a reason.

Termies, predators, and land raiders seem to take it up the rear on this one.

Fliers and GC taking a -1 to hit if they move was unexpected. This assumes they are firing heavy weapons.

Well, that went a direction I didn't expect, I was thinking cover would give a minus to hit, but giving a +1 to armor save changes a few things. Assuming a 1 always fails (a hopefully sane assumption) TEQ won't get much advantage from cover, unless they are hiding from heavy weapons.

As for pistols the ability to shoot out of phase is powerful since it basically means unanswered wounds, I wonder if that means they won't function as CCW to stop double dipping. Though it does give plasma pistols a new lease on life, and makes assault marines a bit cooler since their default comes with a pistol and CCW.

Presuming that Tau Battlesuits, Vehicles, and Termies aren't going to get bespoke rules matching their current "Relentless" c capabilities of firing heavy weapons on the move seems... odd.

While physical cover has been confirmed to be an addition to your armor save, GW has confirmed that some other effects will instead provide negatives to the firer's to-hit roll - the example given was Smoke.

I'm guessing that will be the track taken for units that currently have Stealth and/or Shrouded. If you had one or the other, the firer gets -1, if you had both, the firer gets -2.

I wonder if the Tau Fire Warriors (including Breachers) will be be equipped with pulse pistols officially now (they're found on the sprue, but the unit rules don't give them access).

No mention of AoS's omnipresent Split Fire - that seems like something they WOULD mention in this one, but no guarantee, I suppose.

 Grimgold wrote:
Well, that went a direction I didn't expect, I was thinking cover would give a minus to hit, but giving a +1 to armor save changes a few things. Assuming a 1 always fails (a hopefully sane assumption) TEQ won't get much advantage from cover, unless they are hiding from heavy weapons.

As for pistols the ability to shoot out of phase is powerful since it basically means unanswered wounds, I wonder if that means they won't function as CCW to stop double dipping. Though it does give plasma pistols a new lease on life, and makes assault marines a bit cooler since their default comes with a pistol and CCW.

Well, people have been talking about letting pistols shoot in CC for a while, so I guess GW caught wind of it.

Skullhammer wrote:
I hope there's something to mitigate the -to hit for tanks etc or the guard/orks/deldar(to a degree) and even (dare i say) tau are going to suffer a fair bit as most of there heavies are on armour of one sort or another.

The pistols in combat seems nothing more than a bone to marines of all types and sides as i cant think of an other army which routinely(spl) equips there grunts with pistols as well as main guns.

On cover there really isn't enough info to say more than they said.

Well mostOrk weapons are of the Assault type currently even their equivalents to other races heavy weapons. (I.e Big shoota/Rokkit launcher) so they shouldn't be overly harmed by moving and firing heavy weapons giving a -1

Dark Eldar I hope they'll adjust their weapons (Rapid fire and Heavy weapons on a maneuver based army has never made sense to me)

As for Guard I can imagine the Leman Russ getting something to counteract it slightly. Or they may just increase the base Bs to 3+ (and say only seasoned shooters get gunner positions in IG vehicles)

Davor wrote:
I was hoping they would actually make players think but give them the "easy button" or even "easier button" this time around for shooting. Before when you had heavy weapons you had to think, move or shoot.

I will have to wait and see how this plays out. After all if it adds fun to the game, then no harm done but if it doesn't add fun to the game and just makes it an easier choice, we will leave the comments until then.

I disagree. Currently with the Snap Shooting rules a heavy weapon squad like Devestators sits in cover and never moves unless they really need to run for the objective, moving completely kills their shooting. This means that people who take them just leave them in place or go for a unit that has access to Relentless. This time around it looks like whilst your ability to fire Heavy weapons on the move still takes a hit, it will actually be a viable option rather than a possibility thats so remot eit's not worth thinking about.


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 Grimgold wrote:
Well, that went a direction I didn't expect, I was thinking cover would give a minus to hit, but giving a +1 to armor save changes a few things. Assuming a 1 always fails (a hopefully sane assumption) TEQ won't get much advantage from cover, unless they are hiding from heavy weapons.

As for pistols the ability to shoot out of phase is powerful since it basically means unanswered wounds, I wonder if that means they won't function as CCW to stop double dipping. Though it does give plasma pistols a new lease on life, and makes assault marines a bit cooler since their default comes with a pistol and CCW.

From the way the article's written I think you'll be shooting your pistols in the shooting phase and hiting your opponents in the combat phase rather than doing it all in the same phase. Whilst I'd normally agree with the double dipping, I think this would depend on certain close combat units having their base attacks boosted as well. Wyches, Howling Banshees and Striking Scorpions would be useless in combat if they remain stuck on their current base 1 attacks and can't gain an extra attack for having 2 CCW (yes, I know, Wyches are already useless but we've been promised better balance so lets see).

redleger wrote:If Tau Riptides weapons all still remain heavy then they will be nerfed a bit. SMS and HYMPs are all heavy as are the HBC and Ion. So this in and of itself is a nerf to riptides that everyone has been wanting. I think its stupid, but marker lights exist for a reason.

Termies, predators, and land raiders seem to take it up the rear on this one.

This assumes that they won't be getting special rules that negate the penalty to firing heavy weapons if they move, which they do already so I see no reason they won't keep it in 8th ed.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Presuming that Tau Battlesuits, Vehicles, and Termies aren't going to get bespoke rules matching their current "Relentless" c capabilities of firing heavy weapons on the move seems... odd.

Agreed, I find it a little absured that so many people seem to think that Relentless, or what ever the equivelent these units will now have is, has been removed from the game.

Well, RIP tyranid close quarters shooting. Not a pistol to be seen, unless spinefists get a change there. Do the bugs even have a "Heavy" type weapon? I can't recall, so no real change there.

StarHunter25 wrote:
Well, RIP tyranid close quarters shooting. Not a pistol to be seen, unless spinefists get a change there. Do the bugs even have a "Heavy" type weapon? I can't recall, so no real change there.

Um...no. The rules only say you can't fire if the enemy is 1" within you, which at that point you are in close quarter combat, so they couldn't before either. Though i agree that the weapon should get a special rule that allows it to fire in CQC. And the answer is no mostly assault weapons, must likely because their weapons are physically part of their bodies and not equipment.


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One type of weapons i am wondering how this new pistol mechanic could affect are shotgun like weapons. They have always been shorter ranged weapons and the idea of using them in CQC to shot at the enemy in the shooting phase like a pistol seems like it could work though I would only make it happen in the first round of CQC instead of every round if they didn't charge.

I'm just seeing more and more good things for my orks. All my sluggas get to shoot while I'm in close combat? Not to mention no shooting if I'm within 1'' of the enemy. I'm loving all these assault buffs.

Anyone else notice that your average Space Marine will not be able to use Cover against Lascannons?

 Imateria wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
Well, that went a direction I didn't expect, I was thinking cover would give a minus to hit, but giving a +1 to armor save changes a few things. Assuming a 1 always fails (a hopefully sane assumption) TEQ won't get much advantage from cover, unless they are hiding from heavy weapons.

As for pistols the ability to shoot out of phase is powerful since it basically means unanswered wounds, I wonder if that means they won't function as CCW to stop double dipping. Though it does give plasma pistols a new lease on life, and makes assault marines a bit cooler since their default comes with a pistol and CCW.

From the way the article's written I think you'll be shooting your pistols in the shooting phase and hiting your opponents in the combat phase rather than doing it all in the same phase. Whilst I'd normally agree with the double dipping, I think this would depend on certain close combat units having their base attacks boosted as well. Wyches, Howling Banshees and Striking Scorpions would be useless in combat if they remain stuck on their current base 1 attacks and can't gain an extra attack for having 2 CCW (yes, I know, Wyches are already useless but we've been promised better balance so lets see).

Well, a lot depends on the Pistol rules, but I think that units with a CCW and pistol will be at an advantage. Units like Banshees are the ones who will be screwed the most without something more.

For example, if Pistols do not count as a CCW:
Pistol and CCW: Shoot Pistol while in Combat during Shooting Phase, so use its Strength and AP. Wack once with model's Str. in Combat. This is different from Wack twice with model's Str in Combat.

Pistol and PW: Shoot Pistol in Combat during Shooting Phase using its Str and AP. Wack once with model's Str and Weapon's AP in Combat. This is different from Wack twice with model's Str and Weapon's AP in Combat.

StarHunter25 wrote:
Well, RIP tyranid close quarters shooting. Not a pistol to be seen, unless spinefists get a change there. Do the bugs even have a "Heavy" type weapon? I can't recall, so no real change there.

Well, it's not a deathknell to tyranid close range shooting so much as a buff to Marines/eldar/ork melee ability really.

Like you said, fleshborer or spinefists (my money on spinefists!) could be switched to pistols. So a spinefist termigant could essentially get 2 melee attacks (1 for pistol shot, and 1 for biting/stabbing). It would make an interesting choice between them with the fleshborer being the better shooting option, but the spinefist being a more aggressive option. I think it actually.

On the flip side, getting out monstrous creatures shot in the face with plasma pistols even while in melee.....I dunno, that's pretty rough. That said I imagine you can only shoot on YOUR shooting phase, so if your opponent is doing this they have chosen to not move out of melee during movement, so they were probably already in an advantageous position in the melee anyways.

For all we know they might completely change the stats on all the tyranid weapons, so we may end up with heavy weapons and pistols galore.

Welcome to the age of plasma pistol.

Sounds good so far, but i wonder how will vehicules' covers be worked out. To decide whther lascanons simly shooting through the walls are any good. Heavy weapons gettjng minus one on the move (once again added a bolt action inspired rule i guess) really makes them interesting now...

I was thinking of my Devastators with 4 Heavy Bolters being able to do Advancing Fire...

I wonder how this will work for death guard. Minus movement in exchange for some form of relentless?

Ya'll think we'll really see just layered waves/walls of deployment? And marching straight forward tactics? Kinda like much of WMH is played...

edit:
nvm. I realized 40k doesn't/won't have all of its objectives in a little 1' square box like WMH. It will(/should) still utilize the entire board, so more dynamic deployment/movement tactics will still be a thing. *phew*

Liking what I have heard so far, and perfectly timed for me since Battlefront have made a hash of Flames v4.

-1 to hit when you move makes sense, you should be more accurate when halted, and better trained troops care less.

By putting the cover effect onto armour this free the 'to hit' roll for modifiers like this, nice and simple, drop a coloured bead on anything that moves, personally I'd alter RoF based on moving/stationary but a simple -1 is good enough for me.

Cover boosting armour to me makes a lot of sense, making you harder to hurt.

There are basically two sorts of cover as I see it, the system can now handle both:

1. stuff like fog, makes you harder to hit which should be a 'to hit' modifier

2. stuff like foxholes, makes you harder to hurt which should be a boost to toughness or the armour save.

By splitting cover to the armour save they allow modifiers for smoke etc to be on the to hit roll without it being very easy to make models impossible to hit with stacked modifiers.


My hope is for splitting of fire, either freely or by weapon type, freely is the preference, make it so a squad being approached by two enemy squads and a tank can focus fire on one and do serious damage or spread fire across all three at will.


Actually looking forwards to this