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2017/05/09 19:30:48
Subject: How - to - break Age of Sigmar - returning to competitive play
So my area is pretty strong in the competitive mindset and while I do push narrative very hard, its a hard sell (often culminating with one of the tournament players telling us to "git gud"). As such, I'm going to go back to "gittin gud". Its been about ten years since my last tournament after I played a solid decade of nothing-but, and I'm ready to dust off the gittin gud crown and start busting the game again.
So in breaking Age of Sigmar, I note that there are four main power lists. Kunnin Rukk, the skyfire tzeentch list, stormcast mortal wound spamming units, and the ogre beastclaw mortal wound spamming units.
I am a staunch chaos player and have most of the tzeentch stuff already. I've got 18 skyfires on order. What are some premutations of that list that keep its power coefficients maxed?
2017/05/09 20:51:37
Subject: How - to - break Age of Sigmar - returning to competitive play
I hope this is temporary or a side thing, and you aren't abandoning the narrative approach as you are one of the largest proponents of it. Or should I insert the Anakin/Obi-Wan dialogue (the "You were the chosen one!" one).
I seem to recall the typical lists have a Tzaangor Shaman to give +1 to hit, minimum Marauder squads to fill Battleline, and I think typically a Lord of Change (I know one list had Kairos, but I'm not sure why).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/09 20:52:28
- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame
2017/05/09 21:06:04
Subject: How - to - break Age of Sigmar - returning to competitive play
Mind you with GH2 right around the corner, the meta can be expected to shift some. I'd also argue you weren't noting the most broken of lists, while others aren't much to be feared.
The Beastclaw Raiders meta is mostly over. Experienced players figured out that only a few wounds on each dramatically reduces their offense, and they do not have the models needed to succeed in nearly any scenario. Anyone showing up to tournaments with them not is behind the curve, and will likely get shut out if competition is of a high tier.
The real competitive thing to keep an eye out for is any flavor of the alpha-striking, super-synergy combo. Necropolis Knights from Tomb Kings are innately excellent, but given the wealth of buffs which perfectly marry with them, its entirely possible for many TK players to remove a majority of their opponents army from the table, from very nearly across said table, right away.
Likewise any null deploying army may cause issues, and it is something to keep in mind. Really learning about bubble-wrapping, and spacing should help you weather that storm, and possibly answer with your armies own devastating counter-punch.
Also, if you do go a less typical Chaos route, I will echo what everyone hear advised me, and suggest buying Sayl the Faithless from Forgeworld. His movement spell is soooo disruptive to your opponent's strategy as turning anything on your list into a fearsome alpha-strike will throw many gamers for a loop.
At the highest levels of play, encouraging those kinds of misplays from your opponent can be a game changer. A lot of players panic when ANY unit is suddenly too close to them and whatever their plan was.
11527pts Total (7400pts painted)
4980pts Total (4980pts painted)
3730 Total (210pts painted)
2017/05/10 01:22:48
Subject: How - to - break Age of Sigmar - returning to competitive play
auticus wrote: So my area is pretty strong in the competitive mindset and while I do push narrative very hard, its a hard sell (often culminating with one of the tournament players telling us to "git gud"). As such, I'm going to go back to "gittin gud". Its been about ten years since my last tournament after I played a solid decade of nothing-but, and I'm ready to dust off the gittin gud crown and start busting the game again.
So in breaking Age of Sigmar, I note that there are four main power lists. Kunnin Rukk, the skyfire tzeentch list, stormcast mortal wound spamming units, and the ogre beastclaw mortal wound spamming units.
I am a staunch chaos player and have most of the tzeentch stuff already. I've got 18 skyfires on order. What are some premutations of that list that keep its power coefficients maxed?
One thing I would note is that depending on what your local area is like, if you are going to go the Skyfire bro path, a Kharadron Overlord Barak Zilfin list will basically ruin your day. They can do a null deploy, first turn deepstrike with enough firepower to take off all of your 18 Skyfires, and still have enough left in the tank to give everything else a bit of a kicking.
2017/05/10 01:58:32
Subject: How - to - break Age of Sigmar - returning to competitive play
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2017/05/10 02:19:00
Subject: How - to - break Age of Sigmar - returning to competitive play
Breaking the game is kind of pointless when the yearly GHB and shadow edits will nerf whatever you come up with into the dirt.
Kunnin Rukk is trash the second you have shooting and drop the boss.
The Hammerstrike stormcast list is matter of having chaff units
Tzeentch is tough but far from unstoppable. Its just a highly mobile good damage dealing army.
Personally Ive noticed that no one knows whats going on in the game yet and new builds are coming out all the time. So how about instead of doing this ITC stupid gak you go out and make your own thing? My Death army has rocked all these net listing goons.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/10 02:20:47
2017/05/10 02:28:24
Subject: How - to - break Age of Sigmar - returning to competitive play
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Mind you with GH2 right around the corner, the meta can be expected to shift some. I'd also argue you weren't noting the most broken of lists, while others aren't much to be feared.
The Beastclaw Raiders meta is mostly over. Experienced players figured out that only a few wounds on each dramatically reduces their offense, and they do not have the models needed to succeed in nearly any scenario. Anyone showing up to tournaments with them not is behind the curve, and will likely get shut out if competition is of a high tier.
The real competitive thing to keep an eye out for is any flavor of the alpha-striking, super-synergy combo. Necropolis Knights from Tomb Kings are innately excellent, but given the wealth of buffs which perfectly marry with them, its entirely possible for many TK players to remove a majority of their opponents army from the table, from very nearly across said table, right away.
Likewise any null deploying army may cause issues, and it is something to keep in mind. Really learning about bubble-wrapping, and spacing should help you weather that storm, and possibly answer with your armies own devastating counter-punch.
Also, if you do go a less typical Chaos route, I will echo what everyone hear advised me, and suggest buying Sayl the Faithless from Forgeworld. His movement spell is soooo disruptive to your opponent's strategy as turning anything on your list into a fearsome alpha-strike will throw many gamers for a loop.
At the highest levels of play, encouraging those kinds of misplays from your opponent can be a game changer. A lot of players panic when ANY unit is suddenly too close to them and whatever their plan was.
The all-Beastclaw meta may be over but it was superficial anyways; only the Beastclaw characters are OP, and their troops are actually kinda bad. What we do see is Beastclaw heroes leading Moonclan Grots* or Beastclaw Heroes with Kunnin Rukk doing well at tournaments. I agree that TK are another OP power-player, and would add that 'Tzeentchaeon' using Tzeentch allegiance and Archaon (for general OPness and fate dicing his hit rolls to instant-kill things) is a Chaos build doing well. On the Order side, Stormcast mortal wounds and buffed dracoth cavalry are still good even though their deep strike has been nerfed, while Sylvaneth also make a strong showing using kurnoth Hunter spam with or without Allarielle. Generic Chaos monster mash with warpfire stormfiends + Sayl is also still strong, as is Order gunline using the hurricanum.
As for specific advice to you Auticus, I don't have much for Tzeentch but I did theory-craft a Khorne tournament that is quite strong in theory, and I know you have a decent sized Khorne force.
*To toot my own horn a little, Auticus you may remember me predicting this build shortly after the Beastclaw battletome hit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TheIronCrow wrote: Breaking the game is kind of pointless when the yearly GHB and shadow edits will nerf whatever you come up with into the dirt.
Kunnin Rukk is trash the second you have shooting and drop the boss.
The Hammerstrike stormcast list is matter of having chaff units
Tzeentch is tough but far from unstoppable. Its just a highly mobile good damage dealing army.
Personally Ive noticed that no one knows whats going on in the game yet and new builds are coming out all the time. So how about instead of doing this ITC stupid gak you go out and make your own thing? My Death army has rocked all these net listing goons.
Have you rocked people who just copied the net list and had little skill or have you rocked tournament players who use these lists and do well?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/10 02:30:50
TheIronCrow wrote: Breaking the game is kind of pointless when the yearly GHB and shadow edits will nerf whatever you come up with into the dirt.
Kunnin Rukk is trash the second you have shooting and drop the boss.
The Hammerstrike stormcast list is matter of having chaff units
Tzeentch is tough but far from unstoppable. Its just a highly mobile good damage dealing army.
Personally Ive noticed that no one knows whats going on in the game yet and new builds are coming out all the time. So how about instead of doing this ITC stupid gak you go out and make your own thing? My Death army has rocked all these net listing goons.
Have you rocked people who just copied the net list and had little skill or have you rocked tournament players who use these lists and do well?
Both.
I was fighting against kunnin rukk and sayl stupidity before it became a thing. The only one that popped up was the stupid beastclaw list from the GT, but I quickly adapted. The internet is hung up on mournguls but our store sees them as hilarious point sinks, its typical internet, whine and be lazy rather than adapt. Shooting lists are the latest meta, hurricanums + 2 rocket batteries will be the new cats ass for awhile, well that and until the GHB limits stacking to once per rule the 20 thunders w/mortars + 5 Khemists blasting people off the table turn 1.
The only thing I haven't had a chance to fight is tomb kings. But the GHB is going to neuter that out of existence.
My point is, find your own path and stick to it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/10 03:07:55
2017/05/10 05:30:54
Subject: How - to - break Age of Sigmar - returning to competitive play
So have you been winning tournaments or have you not actually played in them? It seems very anecdotal; even the best lists will do poorly when they are run by a bad player. Certainly the tournament scene at large says that these lists have a definite edge, so either you are a much better player than most tournament winners or the people you are playing against aren't good with their lists. Considering you mentioned netlisting, I'm guessing these are the types who looked up an army list then expected it to win for them.
Wayniac wrote: I hope this is temporary or a side thing, and you aren't abandoning the narrative approach as you are one of the largest proponents of it. Or should I insert the Anakin/Obi-Wan dialogue (the "You were the chosen one!" one).
I seem to recall the typical lists have a Tzaangor Shaman to give +1 to hit, minimum Marauder squads to fill Battleline, and I think typically a Lord of Change (I know one list had Kairos, but I'm not sure why).
I'm still doing campaigns but I got really tired of the git gud guys in my area screaming git gud and this is an exercise in showing them that the army list is indeed a huge component of winning. Most of them were not around 10 years ago when I was ending my tournament career so they don't know anything about my min max powergaming days and say I'm the guy that is just horrible at the game and can't figure out how to beat min/max builds and just cry about it, so I thought it was time to remind them why I have a wall of plaques. Call it a mid-life crisis.
Something very valid is that GHB 2 will change the meta again... so I might wait for that. I can see me painting 18 skyfires and then having them introduce no shooting into combat or it be like 40k's proposed rules which would turn my 18 skyfire OP list into a middling list that is easily dealt with (from a campaign narrative perspective that'd be great since that'd be a fun army to face, but for this exercise I need a strong crutch that I can beat other OP armies over the head with). I note that as normal all of the big tournaments feature the same lists, and those same lists always seem to consistently come out on top. The argument existed 10-15 years ago as well that one does not need a netlist to win tournaments, and like back then, while true - it makes it vastly easier to come to the gun fight with a gun and not a knife. I have a bunch of armies that I enjoy but none of them can stand up to a tournament list so my own path for campaigns is definitely something I always adhere to, but if I'm going to go play tournaments against net lists I need a net list myself.
If they boost melee I do have about 10 billion khorne models though sadly I will need to rebase everything.
The null deployment armies I think may be getting boosted more simply because it allows you to control the game and makes it less random for you, which gives you a giant advantage.
The army that does that best is of course the space marines...er... stormcast eternals. So that might be the way to go, null deploy them and then drop them in front of whatever doing all of their mortal wounds.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/10 11:53:46
2017/05/10 21:06:56
Subject: How - to - break Age of Sigmar - returning to competitive play
I have a hunch they are going to remove random initiative for matched play, which would indirectly shave off the edge that shooting armies have right now.
Wayniac wrote: I hope this is temporary or a side thing, and you aren't abandoning the narrative approach as you are one of the largest proponents of it. Or should I insert the Anakin/Obi-Wan dialogue (the "You were the chosen one!" one).
I seem to recall the typical lists have a Tzaangor Shaman to give +1 to hit, minimum Marauder squads to fill Battleline, and I think typically a Lord of Change (I know one list had Kairos, but I'm not sure why).
I'm still doing campaigns but I got really tired of the git gud guys in my area screaming git gud and this is an exercise in showing them that the army list is indeed a huge component of winning. Most of them were not around 10 years ago when I was ending my tournament career so they don't know anything about my min max powergaming days and say I'm the guy that is just horrible at the game and can't figure out how to beat min/max builds and just cry about it, so I thought it was time to remind them why I have a wall of plaques. Call it a mid-life crisis.
Reading this, I was imagining this music in my head.
Go for the throat, Auticus, show them that Narrative players aren't narrative because they are "bad players"!!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/10 22:09:16
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2017/05/10 22:59:20
Subject: How - to - break Age of Sigmar - returning to competitive play
Galas wrote: Go for the throat, Auticus, show them that Narrative players aren't narrative because they are "bad players"!!
Absolutely! For yourself Auticus, and for all of us!
Anyways, it occurs to me that there is an alternate method here; swap armies. If skill is the deciding factor and it is you who needs to 'git gud' then surely they would have no trouble stomping you if the tables were turned. Further, in what I expect is the likely result that you win they can only conclude that either the list IS a significant factor or you just got lucky. And the latter is easily resolved with further matches. You could even make it a standing offer; "I'll beat you with your list, try me" sort of thing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/10 23:07:42
Swapping armies is almost universally met with "nobody touches my stuff". I've suggested that a few times on dakka as an in-built balancing mechanism.
Somehow it's always about protecting paintjobs (from non-existent paintjobs to Golden Demon apparently), the models themselves or just the principle of the thing---not allowing somebody to touch your toys.
Never has anyone admitted it could be that playing Skaven in Mordheim just might bend the game your way
Thread Slayer
2017/05/11 02:12:42
Subject: How - to - break Age of Sigmar - returning to competitive play
Yeah. I've tried the swap armies thing. In 20 years it has a 0% accepted policy lol. Mainly because the git gud guys know they are full of **** when they say army lists have nothing to do with it.
I'm a reformed power gamer. I'll tell you right now the only reason i did so well in tournaments was because my lists were busted.
Member auto break due to fear? I member. It got me 5th place out of 80 players in one of the GWGTslol. Genius on my part? Hell no. I didn't even have to roll dice.
Wayniac wrote: I hope this is temporary or a side thing, and you aren't abandoning the narrative approach as you are one of the largest proponents of it. Or should I insert the Anakin/Obi-Wan dialogue (the "You were the chosen one!" one).
I seem to recall the typical lists have a Tzaangor Shaman to give +1 to hit, minimum Marauder squads to fill Battleline, and I think typically a Lord of Change (I know one list had Kairos, but I'm not sure why).
I'm still doing campaigns but I got really tired of the git gud guys in my area screaming git gud and this is an exercise in showing them that the army list is indeed a huge component of winning. Most of them were not around 10 years ago when I was ending my tournament career so they don't know anything about my min max powergaming days and say I'm the guy that is just horrible at the game and can't figure out how to beat min/max builds and just cry about it, so I thought it was time to remind them why I have a wall of plaques. Call it a mid-life crisis.
Reading this, I was imagining this music in my head.
Go for the throat, Auticus, show them that Narrative players aren't narrative because they are "bad players"!!
Just wanted to say this is my favorite post of the year lol.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/11 02:14:00
2017/05/11 18:47:11
Subject: Re:How - to - break Age of Sigmar - returning to competitive play
Locally we have a player that takes a pretty similar list and smashes most people. It has a lot of tools for most missions and matchups. Also some room to tweak and add some things to make it your own.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/11 18:47:54
snoogums: "Just because something is not relavant doesn't mean it goes away completely."
Iorek: "Snoogums, you're right. Your arguments are irrelevant, and they sure as heck aren't going away."
2017/05/11 19:13:12
Subject: How - to - break Age of Sigmar - returning to competitive play
Locally we have a player that takes a pretty similar list and smashes most people. It has a lot of tools for most missions and matchups. Also some room to tweak and add some things to make it your own.
That looks pretty brutal, especially in the hands of an experienced player.
Kill his heroes(Hitting on 3s, wounding on 3s, d3 wounds per hit, -2 rend, 2 shots) with the spear chukkas, range 24 inches. Kill his troops with short-bows.
Use your heroes to keep battle shock from affecting the big goblin units. As long as you outnumber them 2-1, you're hitting on 2s and wounding on 4s with the short bows, hitting on 2s and wounding on 3s with the spears.
Your Nasty Skulkers cause mortal wounds on a 5+ to hit for every attack they get if they outnumber 2-1, And they get to pop up to countercharge his tough unit.
You also get a spell that allows your regular troops to get better rend.
2017/05/13 22:36:13
Subject: How - to - break Age of Sigmar - returning to competitive play
For ChAos I always have good luck using Wulfrik with like thirty Marauders. Question is do we think old compendium units will remain in the next Generals Handbook?
I also like the Chaos sorcerer combos, Sorcerer Lord on mount, Sayl, and some other General, maybe another sorcerer for a mystic shield, all to buff a couple options of choppy units like great weapon Bullgors or Khorgoraths. Backed by a hellcannon. Plague toads are also good for resilient tarpitty peskiness.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For ChAos I always have good luck using Wulfrik with like thirty Marauders. Question is do we think old compendium units will remain in the next Generals Handbook?
I also like the Chaos sorcerer combos, Sorcerer Lord on mount, Sayl, and some other General, maybe another sorcerer for a mystic shield, all to buff a couple options of choppy units like great weapon Bullgors or Khorgoraths. Backed by a hellcannon. Plague toads are also good for resilient tarpitty peskiness.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/13 22:36:53
2017/06/24 13:32:20
Subject: How - to - break Age of Sigmar - returning to competitive play
I have some newb questions. I'm looking to get better with tactics and such. What is null deployment, and bubble-wrapping? Is there a good source for strategy articles and tips?
2017/06/24 15:03:47
Subject: How - to - break Age of Sigmar - returning to competitive play
Null deployment - deploying your army... in reserve. So nothing is deployed on the table. (null)
Bubble wrapping - the counter to null deployment first turn alpha striking. The concept is... the alpha strike first turn army is going to land where he wnats and try to charge the things he wants to kill in turn 1.
You have to include cheap trash troops and "bubble wrap" them around your important units so that all the alpha strike first turn guy can do is charge trash troops.
2017/09/06 06:40:00
Subject: How - to - break Age of Sigmar - returning to competitive play
The eternal dilemma, GW games aren't designed to be competitive, players want to be competitive.
Auticus I wish you the best of luck. It annoys me on your behalf that you'll have to spend money and time on painting a bunch of new models to settle the argument.
By the way how is the project going?
With love from Denmark
2017/09/06 11:35:19
Subject: How - to - break Age of Sigmar - returning to competitive play
I waited for GHB 2017 to drop and now that skeletons are at the top of the efficiency chain I'm waiting for a Deathrattle book since I already have a huge undead horde just waiting for current rules.
11527pts Total (7400pts painted)
4980pts Total (4980pts painted)
3730 Total (210pts painted) 
