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Made in it
Crazed Zealot





While i often try to avoid using the "loyalists from a traitor legion" gimmick (since it's already been used a lot), i ended up wanting to make a loyalist word bearers chapter, being my favourite traitor legion. I wanted to ask you guys if some of you had some cool ideas to suggest me. as of now, these are my ideas for a name, either by themselves or attached to another word:

  • The iconoclasts, a rarely spoken nickname given to the early XVIIth legion for their zealotry in destroying everithing that went against the imperial truth;
  • the flagellants (probably with another word before or after it, like "marines flagellant" or stuff like that), since the chapter might feel guilty for their previous sins and seek redempion;
  • the orphans (again, accompanied by another word), since the chapter's founders might have known their primarch's identity and repudiated him, considering themselves to have no father;
  • a name based on a canon pre-heresy chapter, the most probables being the sundered tower chapter and the perpetual spiral chapter.


  • After the name, it's also necessary to think where to this marines come from. So far, my best ideas have been:

  • they're survivors from the sundered tower chapter, a chapter consisting of mainly terran recruits and, after the humiliation of Monarchia, purposefully sent on suicidal missions until their destruction;
  • they're loyalist from the perpetual spiral chapter, a chapter known to reject views of the Emperor as a God, eventually indoctrinated by the ruinous powers;
  • they're a chapter that, for some reason, got separated from the legion during the Heresy, mantaining their belief in the God-Emperor.


  • What do you think could work? Do you have name/colour scheme/chapter badge to suggest? Let me know.

    "For the Emperor, for the Gallant Cove and for holy Connachta! Death to our enemies, sisters. Let none survive your righteous wrath!" Lumen Laus, missionary of the schola progenium of 'Our Mother Mhaol' on Connachta. 
       
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    I think a big obstacle is that even Forge World, who are pretty lenient on having your guys as whatever allegiance you want, more or less disallowed Word Bearers from being Loyalist, as far as I see. This is because Lorgar had plenty of time to kill off all the loyalists in his Legion, did so very early on, and generally could hold sway over them rather fanatically.

    The only Word Bearer who opposes Lorgar is Narek, who just didn't like the whole daemon worship aspect - however, he was still more loyal to the legion than to the Imperium.


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    The Dog-house

    Smudge is right on that one. Lorgar said he purged the Loyalists a long time before the Heresy.

    If you did do Loyalists, they'd have to have been cut off from Lorgar and crew for a long time.

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    The thing is it is kind of the Word Bearer thing to be Loyal. They worshiped the IoM and the Emperor. They were the most loyal of any Legion.

    but their loyalty went through Lorgar. And their loyalty to the Emperor was in thinking that he was the one and only god. When they found out he wasnt a god, and that there were 4 beings of immeasurably more power, and that their Primarch had turned against the Emperor and started worshiping the Chaos gods, they would follow suit.

    On one hand, a preHeresy Word Bearer transported to the year 40k might find the veneration of the Emperor as a god and all the theology/theocracy of the current IoM comforting, but when they learned the Lorgar had found REAL gods, along with Big E being laid low by a mere mortal. They would head for the eye of terror to rejoin their legion.

    Think about it. Of all the legions, the Word Bearers are the most cohesive in the year 40k. They are all loyal to Lorgar to this day. Loyalty is there thing.

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    Made in it
    Crazed Zealot





    Yes, i know well that the word bearers are extremely loyal to their primarch and that the loyalist were purged way before Isstvan III.

    Howerer, the fact that loyalists existed to begin with proves that their fealty to Lorgar is not absolute. Furthermore, characters like Barthusa Narek and Volkhar Wreth, which were still loyal to the God-Emperor even after Monarchia, exists. And while i have only Lexicanum's article and not the actual book, Narek's article says that:
    Narek resolved to hunt down Grammaticus and obtain the fulgurite so he could use it to kill Lorgar and save the Word Bearers from damnation.
    Even adding the novel "Vulkan lives" as source of the information. Even if he wasn't successful, this fact proves that even a word bearer is capable of betraying his primarch.

    Another thing is that, while Lorgar had much more time than the other traitor primarchs to purge his legion, the possibility that loyalist forces survived still exist. The sundered tower chapter was sent, after the events of Monarchia, on suicidal missions for being composed of terran recruits instead of recruits from Colchis. This also means that they were never corrupted to begin with. Also, the fact that they were just sent to die leaves the plausibility that some of them might have survived, maybe breaking the honour code of the word bearers by retrating from battle.

    Another plausible option is the perpetual spiral chapter, which, always quoting Lexicanum's article:
    was known to reject views of the Emperor as a God
    Which was a sentiment most evident in chapter master Balas Silak which, again quoting lexicanum's article of the chapter:
    Balas Silak later died in the Drop Site Massacre, and some say this was orchestrated by Lorgar himself due to his lack of reverence for their New Gods.
    Not only the chapter didn't worshipped the Emperor as a God, but their chapter master even lacked of respect for the new gods of the legion. I believe that this fact makes plausible the possibility that a small part of the chapter, maybe more loyal to Silak's belief than Lorgar's, decided to separate from the legion, somehow.

    I think there are enough possibilities to make a loyalist word bearers chapter plausible.

    "For the Emperor, for the Gallant Cove and for holy Connachta! Death to our enemies, sisters. Let none survive your righteous wrath!" Lumen Laus, missionary of the schola progenium of 'Our Mother Mhaol' on Connachta. 
       
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     Missionary Lumen Laus wrote:
    Yes, i know well that the word bearers are extremely loyal to their primarch and that the loyalist were purged way before Isstvan III.

    Howerer, the fact that loyalists existed to begin with proves that their fealty to Lorgar is not absolute.
    Yes, but these Loyalists were taken care of far before the Heresy even reached Horus.
    Furthermore, characters like Barthusa Narek and Volkhar Wreth, which were still loyal to the God-Emperor even after Monarchia, exists. And while i have only Lexicanum's article and not the actual book, Narek's article says that:
    Narek resolved to hunt down Grammaticus and obtain the fulgurite so he could use it to kill Lorgar and save the Word Bearers from damnation.
    Even adding the novel "Vulkan lives" as source of the information. Even if he wasn't successful, this fact proves that even a word bearer is capable of betraying his primarch.
    You're missing an important part of Narek which I mentioned. Yes, he isn't fond of the Word Bearers, but that is purely because he didn't like the influence the daemons had on them. He hated the Emperor like any other Word Bearer. It would be more fitting to have him as a Blackshield.
    He wants to kill Lorgar, but that doesn't mean he likes the Emperor.

    Another thing is that, while Lorgar had much more time than the other traitor primarchs to purge his legion, the possibility that loyalist forces survived still exist. The sundered tower chapter was sent, after the events of Monarchia, on suicidal missions for being composed of terran recruits instead of recruits from Colchis. This also means that they were never corrupted to begin with.
    They may not have been corrupted, but it doesn't mean they were any less loyal to Lorgar. Lorgar didn't trust them, but that doesn't mean they felt the same.
    Also, the fact that they were just sent to die leaves the plausibility that some of them might have survived, maybe breaking the honour code of the word bearers by retrating from battle.
    Possible, but they didn't seem to have any issues with Lorgar. Why would they rebel against their Primarch, who they had all reason to trust?

    Another plausible option is the perpetual spiral chapter, which, always quoting Lexicanum's article:
    was known to reject views of the Emperor as a God
    Which was a sentiment most evident in chapter master Balas Silak which, again quoting lexicanum's article of the chapter:
    Balas Silak later died in the Drop Site Massacre, and some say this was orchestrated by Lorgar himself due to his lack of reverence for their New Gods.
    Not only the chapter didn't worshipped the Emperor as a God, but their chapter master even lacked of respect for the new gods of the legion. I believe that this fact makes plausible the possibility that a small part of the chapter, maybe more loyal to Silak's belief than Lorgar's, decided to separate from the legion, somehow.
    Absolutely - this is similar to Narek. However, even so, this doesn't make them Loyalist. They may still have wanted to be in Legion, but didn't like who they worshipped. Lorgar, on the other hand, wanted rid, and disposed of them. It makes them most likely to be Blackshield instead of flat out Loyalist.

    I think there are enough possibilities to make a loyalist word bearers chapter plausible.
    It takes a lot of work, I'd say - far more so than any other Traitor Legion. Given that FW pretty much said "there are no Loyalist Word Bearers", there's a lot of weight against it.


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    *As a way to cull the legion of loyalists, One unit is sent to Terra (or some other major loyalist planet), it ends up fighting on side of Imperium. Allowed to form a new chapter.

    *Heck make them a word bearer band that has taken over a planet as their own and is defending it-all the enemies of the IOM are theirs as well in terms of defending the system or such.

    *Alternatively completely different chapter, but it studied then uses their battletactics.

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    You could always do the Dorian Heresy and just say "4th degree warp fethery" is your explanation for why they're fighting loyalist Blood Angels

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/12 19:40:53


       
    Made in it
    Crazed Zealot





    Sgt_Smudge i see your point. However:
    It's true that the loyalist word bearers, like you said, were purge even before Horus was corrupted, yet there are characters like Narek, who decides to kill Lorgar to save the legion. This should prove either that some of the marines could change their minds or that Lorgar's purge was not fully successful.

    He hated the Emperor like any other Word Bearer. It would be more fitting to have him as a Blackshield.
    He wants to kill Lorgar, but that doesn't mean he likes the Emperor.
    I've read something slightly different, but i'll admit it's possible that part of my sources are wrong, since i haven't read the actual books and, instead, i am using lexicanum's articles for my research. Lexicanum's article for Narek says that he was secretly "loyal to the Emperor" and the one about Wreth says that "Wreth never stopped worshiping the Emperor as a god" (which is a big deal, considering the events of his story happen after the burning of Monarchia) and was even disgusted when he found out what Lorgar was doing. Once again i haven't read the books from which this data come (which are "Vulkan lives" for Narek and the novella "The purge" for Wreth) so i can't be sure, but usually Lexicanum is always pretty accurate in its informations.
    But, even if Narek himself wasn't loyal to the Emperor, the fact that he survived the initial purge despite wanting to kill Lorgar leaves the possibility that other word bearers of questionable loyalty to the primarch might have survived the purge.

    Possible, but they didn't seem to have any issues with Lorgar. Why would they rebel against their Primarch, who they had all reason to trust?
    It is possible that, if any of them survived, they might not follow the Lorgar after finding out his betrayal, in a similar way to Wreth, who was horrified by Lorgar's actions. And speaking of Wreth, they might also still believe in the Emperor's godhood, like Wreth, even after Monarchia. They might also realise that their mission was only a trap for them to die, and turn their back on Lorgar in response.

    Absolutely - this is similar to Narek. However, even so, this doesn't make them Loyalist. They may still have wanted to be in Legion, but didn't like who they worshipped. Lorgar, on the other hand, wanted rid, and disposed of them. It makes them most likely to be Blackshield instead of flat out Loyalist.
    To be fair, the choice of being either loyalists or blackshields would entirely depend on the marines themselves, with their opinions and personalities. Some of them might consider unacceptable the idea of going back to the Imperium after Monarchia, but others might consider it preferable to other options. Once again, the fact that Narek survived the purge proves that not all the surviving marines were loyal to Lorgar and some of them might have found acceptable going back.

    In the end, i think that the fact that Wreth still worshipped the Emperor as a god even after Monarchia was destroyed means that other word bearers might have decided to do the same, maybe considering the humiliation to be a test to their faith, and the fact that Narek survived the purge even if he wanted to kill his primarch means that other marines not loyal to Lorgar might have survived as well.

    "For the Emperor, for the Gallant Cove and for holy Connachta! Death to our enemies, sisters. Let none survive your righteous wrath!" Lumen Laus, missionary of the schola progenium of 'Our Mother Mhaol' on Connachta. 
       
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    'Straya... Mate.

    Sorry mate, the fluff doesn't support what you are after.

    You can always do it anyway, say they were cut off from the warp etc.

    But let's face it, due to the Emperor having god like status, there are many chapters that are like the word bearers pre-heresy (ironically). So you can always have a godly worshipping chapter that isn't word bearers, or ignore the fluff and do it anyway because rule of cool.

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/13 00:44:08


     
       
    Made in it
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    Okay, let's put aside my initial ideas, for the moment. Then what about a chapter just made from the word-bearers' geneseed reserve on Terra? It would be similar to the sons of Antaeus' geneseed, which is thought to come from the still pure death guard geneseed reserve on Terra. Since the traitor legions' gene-seed on Terra was not destroyed but only put on stasis they still have the word bearer's gene-seed in M41. Someone could think to use it to make a chapter that, like the pre-heresy word bearers, was totally loyal to the God-Emperor, with the difference that, in the 41st millenium, the Imperium actually agrees with them and there's no one to tell them that the Emperor is no god.

    "For the Emperor, for the Gallant Cove and for holy Connachta! Death to our enemies, sisters. Let none survive your righteous wrath!" Lumen Laus, missionary of the schola progenium of 'Our Mother Mhaol' on Connachta. 
       
    Made in us
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    Okay, let's put aside my initial ideas, for the moment. Then what about a chapter just made from the word-bearers' geneseed reserve on Terra? It would be similar to the sons of Antaeus' geneseed, which is thought to come from the still pure death guard geneseed reserve on Terra. Since the traitor legions' gene-seed on Terra was not destroyed but only put on stasis they still have the word bearer's gene-seed in M41. Someone could think to use it to make a chapter that, like the pre-heresy word bearers, was totally loyal to the God-Emperor, with the difference that, in the 41st millenium, the Imperium actually agrees with them and there's no one to tell them that the Emperor is no god.


    Honestly I think you shouldn't put aside your idea if you want to commit to a loyalist Word Bearers army, and you've inspired me to think and maybe even create my own small loyalist section .

    The galaxy is an enormous place and saying there are no WB loyalists is far too simplistic in my opinion, I think of it as there is a very very small fraction of said potential legionaries left, most of which are neutral by the start of the heresy. Lorgar, while having purged the legion before the heresy, still was purging his legion during Calth (where he said he sent the legionaries who didn't worship chaos enough for his tastes/ were too narrow minded on getting vengeance against the emperor). To me this implies the legion at this point was mostly loyal but not completely. Besides Narek, who was already mentioned, Sol Talgron was a legionary of the WB who did not believe in the chaos gods until well after the purge, kept because Lorgar thought him useful. If we have this example who's to say another captain somewhere felt the same, was spared from the purge and after seeing the work of chaos decided he had had enough of this haha. one Idea might be a single cruiser at Calth, operated by some aethist/unsure WB like Sol Talgron who then tilted the other way instead of being convinced and fled like Nathaniel Garro did at Isstvan. So I see no reason why you couldn't easily field an IC or even a few small squad/s, though probably not at full strength for fluff reasons to represent perhaps a few legionaries who did not want to defect from Lorgar's ideas and/or casualties that resulted from the WB rebelling. For me personally I would make an army of dark compliance which could easily represent the mix of a small cadre of loyalists with what ever crewman and mechanicum forces as allies to represent the increasing number of ship crew and support that is recruited to fill in gaps. Heck you could take survivors of the dark age and give them rhinos and landraiders, saying the legionaries let them use the equipment because the crew proved their worth by turning from the primarch they despised, and also you know there aren't enough legionaries to man all the vehicles they would probably have in their motor pool so why not use them?

    Second idea is one of a loyalist faction that was campaigning with a loyalist legion like the IF. Given a galaxy wide crusade its hard for every detachment to respond to a summons, so maybe a small detachment of legionaries was out of reach of Lorgar's purging hand when the time came? This would keep legionaries who were pre-disposed of staying loyal, but again I would make it a smaller force as otherwise if its too big it makes it hard to believe Lorgar would just straight up forget or not take the time to purge the force, as obviously an entire chapter would probably force his hand to make sure they were loyal when the time came.

    Thirdly we know Lorgar dealt with some loyalists by sending them on suicide missions. So its possible that an entire chapter was sent on some mission by themselves. The easiest method is the common warp shenanigans, went into the warp and came out in the middle of the heresy, but it doesn't have to be. What if the campaign they sent on was a cruel slog-fest for a couple of decades or devolved to guerilla warfare because, you know, the WB would probably have been sent against a far superior foe with little to no support. As zealous as the WB are I like to believe some captains were very pragmatic, and instead of charging in and being slaughtered maybe the captain decided to borrow some RG or AL or even WS tactics and play cat and mouse with the enemy, refusing to give up until they were victorious some 20-40 years later, which by then the Heresy could have started (either they finished the campaign or got news their brothers were traitors and peeled off for a good smack-down of vengeance). This lends itself to making a lighter and quicker force by their background because they were used to that method, and would work rather well for them in the actual heresy because they would have an uphill battle proving their loyalty to the loyalists. Also hit and run tactics would help preserve their numbers when fighting the enemy, which could be how the few remaining squads of loyal WB survive the heresy in one piece. Though again an entire chapter's worth of equipment could easily still be present even if the number of men was not, so you could use any normal legion equipment really.

    Of course you could make them blackshields, rather make them a force of Word Bearers who might not like the Emperor for destroying Monarchia, but be like Sol Talgron and not be particular fond of the chaos gods. Like my previous example maybe the captain saw some worship and decided that's not the route he wanted to go so he became rogue in the sense of leaving Lorgar's worship but not necessarily leaving the side of Horus (kinda like how Mortarion felt before his corruption).

    Those are a few ideas, I know in the fluff none are mentioned and many don't believe any exist but in a galaxy wide conflict I find it hard to believe there is not a single loyalist WB left somewhere. All the examples I gave seem reasonable to me within the fabric of the fluff so I don't see any reason why you should be worried about someone saying: "wait no loyal WB exists!". As someone who took too many years of science, you can't prove something does not exist XD! The key is to weave it into the fabric of the fluff in a way that is reasonable, ie I don't think there will be a fleet of loyal WB anywhere but a ship or two why not! Again its a galaxy wide conflict, it's presumptuous to assume there are no loyal "traitor" legionaries as well any traitor "loyal" legionaries like the white scars.

    Hope that helped!
       
    Made in it
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    Thanks for the suggestions, R0bcrt. You've been very helpful. I think i'll try to use the sundered tower chapter, since they seem the best source of potentially loyalist marines to me.

    "For the Emperor, for the Gallant Cove and for holy Connachta! Death to our enemies, sisters. Let none survive your righteous wrath!" Lumen Laus, missionary of the schola progenium of 'Our Mother Mhaol' on Connachta. 
       
     
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