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So I've been eyeing those Warhammer 40K models for awhile now, and have been tossing around the idea of possibly getting into the game, although I will wait until the rules come out, of course. I don't know a ton about the background or 'fluff' of the Warhammer 40K factions. Are there any 'good guys'? What I mean by that is in fantasy games there are always evil, undead, zombie, grotesque creature armies, think... the opposite of that. Obviously Chaos and Demon stuff is totally out.

Thanks!

Yes. Individual people are "good guys". Factions are not.

Obligitory mention of Caiphas Cain, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM.

He's probably one of two commissars who realized that not being an ass to people tend to be better in the long run.

There are "good guy" factions like Space Marines, Grey Knights and others. They are the opposite of the evil, corrupted character types you mentioned, at least in appearance. However, in reality, the Imperium as a whole is an intolerant, ignorant nightmare bureaucracy that sacrifices countless individuals to meet its aims.

There's none at all cause grimdark; only very questionable and pure evil. Anyone capable of saying a certain faction are the good guys without question doesn't know that faction in depth really.

The Tau.

Also Salamanders.

 pumpinchimp wrote:
The Tau.

Also Salamanders.

The Tau are good guys for sure... or at least you'll believe so after you emerge from their reeducation camps and brainwashing. For the greater good, komrade!

I'm not sure any faction as whole can. Salamanders and farsight enclaves probably qualify, though the latter we still don't know a ton of detail about. Space wolves and grey knights might as well.

40k takes storytelling to it logical conclusion. The 'Good Guys' are always the most boring part of a story, so why include them at all?

All the factions have motivations for what they are doing and are pretty ruthless in pursuing their goals.
I would say the closest to good guys you could get are the Tau, as they are effectively techno-communist fishmen. But of course they are trying to rule over humanity so they aren't exactly goodies!

Anyone who thinks the Tau are totally benevolent and righteous would make a promising Gulag guard.

The Craftworld Eldar have relatively benevolent goals as it goes: they basically just want to survive and secondarily they'd like to stop the inexorable advance of Chaos. However, they'll toss anyone and everyone under the bus to achieve it. Not terribly bad guys on the whole, and they won't kill you merely for being a non-Eldar (usually...), but they care not one fig for you - whomever you might be.

Tau? Again, mostly benevolent goals, not overtly xenocidal, they'll generally be civil at least to your face, they don't go around stomping folks for smelling funny, etc. However, they're kinda like the Eldar in their monomania. It's less species-focused and more ideological - you decide if that's good or bad. Kinda depends on whether you're the one getting pounded to dust because of it.

Necrons? I'd never call them good, but some of them manage to be solidly non-evil. Others, though, are nothing more or less than omnicidal maniacs. So, bad guys, though at least they'll do you the courtesy of killing you quick and clean.

Orks? They just want to fight. But, to achieve that, they butcher anyone and everyone in their way unless you butcher them first. Not as malevolent as some of the others, but certainly destructive. Destruction incarnate, even.

Imperium? Like the Eldar but worse. Oh, sure, there are some nice guys within the Imperium: the Salamanders are some stand-up guys and the Space Wolves are, if nothing else, mostly honorable too. While we're at it, the Ultramarines, Iron Hands and Imperial Fists aren't exactly wantonly mean-spirited either, if maybe a little too beholden to the rules. The Inquisition runs the gamut from genuinely well-intentioned to outright evil. Seriously, even Asdrubael Vect thinks Inquisitor Karamazov is needlessly ruthless.

Actually, the Imperium might be summed up with that one word: ruthless.

So, yeah, no good guys exactly, but there are some lighter shades of grey.

luvdiscgolf wrote:
So I've been eyeing those Warhammer 40K models for awhile now, and have been tossing around the idea of possibly getting into the game, although I will wait until the rules come out, of course. I don't know a ton about the background or 'fluff' of the Warhammer 40K factions. Are there any 'good guys'? What I mean by that is in fantasy games there are always evil, undead, zombie, grotesque creature armies, think... the opposite of that. Obviously Chaos and Demon stuff is totally out.

Thanks!

A big fundamental part of what makes 40k what it is is that there are no real "good guys", only those that will allow you to live or not.

The Imperium of Man fights for the survival of the human race against aliens and daemons...but is a brutal, corrupt, xenophobix highly militant theocratic neofascist/quasifeudal state that is an abysmal place to live for the majority of its inhabutants.

The Space Marines are the central protagonists, but are not "good guys". Even the "nicest" of them will have no problems committing mass murder of civilian populations for what we would consider "thought crimes" or the like.


Even the Tau, and their "greater good", are just "good" by the standards of the 40k universe. By our modern standarda they're awful. They are an ideologically driven, manipulative and aggressive expansionary empire built around a strict and unyielding inherited caste system that brings the "greater good" to others under the threat of orbital bombardment and invasion if they dont join willingly.

40k has no "good guys" really, it has protagonists.

There are no Good Guys in 40k. Even those with the best intentions have to do evil to make things right. Grey Knights kill innocents in order to hold the tide of evil back one more day. Even a shop keeper in a hive city that sells clockwork toys knows that hiding a mutant is illegal yet inherently unsafe for everyone, while turning in a mutant is immoral yet necessary for the survival of the race. 40k is the dark times, time of evil people doing evil things so that humanity survives while good people doing good things ushers in corruption and rot. There is a readon why it's called the Grimdark.

SJ

Imperium as a whole will look at a planet that might have a xenos infestation and determine it needs to be bathed in fire. This is without any care for the inhabitants. Their navigators move through space by the 'light' of the emperor. He gives off light by consuming the souls of 1000 unsanctioned psychers a day.

So, this then leave you with Xenos or Chaos.

Chaos are corrupted by the demons of the warp.

Xenos -- Tyranid (bugs that eat everything), T'au (fighting for the greater good in a stalinist kind of way), Orks (Breaking stuff for fun and excitement), Eldar (a dying race that knows the future and is trying to prevent it), Necron (undead robots)

"Good guys" as a faction tend to be incredibly dull; when you define your faction as uncomplicated, inoffensive, and unconflicted you take away anything cool or interesting.

Even if you're talking motives who the "good guys" are in 40k is pretty much dependent on whose propaganda you buy into.

The Imperium may be a corpse-empire of blind, ignorant monkeys causing immense destruction in their flailing attempts to save themselves. They may instead be the heroic defenders of humanity, holding the line against innumerable horrors from beyond at great cost.

The Eldar may be a scattered group of arrogant pirates smashing things at random for their own amusement. They may instead be a dying remnant of a great people struggling to survive and rebuild in a galaxy full of ignorant barbarians.

The Orks may be a pestilent wave of screaming madmen swarming across the galaxy just to smash things. They may instead be the only people who really understand the universe running about krumpin' 'eads and having a good time.

Chaos may be the Great Destroyer out to smoosh everything. They may instead be the only honest people around, trying to protect the Warp from material incursions and trying to tear down the horrifying bloated mess that is the Imperium.

Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Frankly, this thread is disappointing. People who argue "good guys are boring" are, themselves, boring and unimaginative.

Furthermore, "HAHAHA SPILL THE BLOOD OF THE INNOCENT TO SUMMON DEMONS HAHAHA!" is just as one-dimensional and boring as "We are the good guys and we win all the time!", and that's the level of "complexity" a lot of 40k "evil" lore is at.

Complex and interesting characters happen regardless of good and evil. Or they don't happen, regardless of good and evil.

The Salamanders. They still kill xenos and all of that, is a world of war, but they are, as a organization/faction, the best intentionated and more emphatical thing in all of 40k. The fact that when they aren't in combat, they live n Nocturne with their old families, or as political figures, helping people with their day-to-day problems, etc... is a nice things. And why is it nice? Because is soo rare in 40k.

Plus: Harlequins. They want to destroy Chaos, they are emphatic, and neutral even with Humans. They don't want to kill people if that doesn't help to destroy Chaos. And not in the Grey Knight "Kill everyone that has seen us" way of fight against Chaos.

To me Tau are also "good" guys, but they have shades of grey, and some dark grey in the mix, so, at least to me, the only pure good guys in 40k are Harlequins and Salamanders. And to me thats great. You can't have a full dark universe, you need a spark of goodhood to constrat with all the corruption and savagery in the universe.

To me Tau are more a parody of the typical Sci-fi Republic (Star Wars/Star Trek), naiveté and ironically leaded by aliens instead of humans.

EDIT: Oh, I forgot about Farsight Enclaves. Those pesky traitors... they take all the good things about Tau and eliminate all the darker shades of grey they have. They even destroy the Caste sistem!

 Melissia wrote:
Complex and interesting characters happen regardless of good and evil. Or they don't happen, regardless of good and evil.

QFT

 Melissia wrote:
Frankly, this thread is disappointing. People who argue "good guys are boring" are, themselves, boring and unimaginative.

Furthermore, "HAHAHA SPILL THE BLOOD OF THE INNOCENT TO SUMMON DEMONS HAHAHA!" is just as one-dimensional and boring as "We are the good guys and we win all the time!", and that's the level of "complexity" a lot of 40k lore is at.

...Yes and no? "Who are the good guys?" is kind of a silly question to start this whole discussion off on; "the good guys" is a really narrow/reductionist classification that doesn't really mean anything unless you oversimplify things to an insane degree. I'm not saying that "good guys are boring", I'm saying that a faction that can be usefully described by saying "these are the good guys" are boring. And yes, a faction that can be usefully described by saying "these are the bad guys" is exactly as boring for exactly the same reasons.

Harlequins are definitely worth tossing up, kinda forgot about them.

So of the goodish races (imperial, eldar, and tau) we have a sub faction for each that mostly qualifies as overall good (salamanders, harlequins, and farsight enclaves).

To paraphrase a line from [i[Wreck-It Ralph[/i]: "You are a bad guy, but that doesn't mean you are a bad guy."

Most of each of the factions have different sub-factions that have different motivations and characteristics. Not all Space Marines view humanity in identical ways; Iron Hands view fleshy humans as weak, while Salamanders and Space Wolves go out of their way to help protect normal citizens. Somce Traitor Space Marines go to Chaos, others just turn their back on the Imperium to do their own thing.

The opportunities presented by having different Chapters, Warbands, Clans, Craftworlds, Kabals, Hivefleets, Septs, Regiments, Dynasties, and others gives tremendous opportunities to have different ways that a faction can view a particular issue or enemy or tactics.

SilverAlien wrote:
Harlequins are definitely worth tossing up, kinda forgot about them.

So of the goodish races (imperial, eldar, and tau) we have a sub faction for each that mostly qualifies as overall good (salamanders, harlequins, and farsight enclaves).

Yeah, to me, if someone in Warhammer has to have the pin of "Good guys", are those 3 factions. And it doesn't mean that they aren't gonna go here and kill people, but you can kill people and still be a "good guy"

 Melissia wrote:
Frankly, this thread is disappointing. People who argue "good guys are boring" are, themselves, boring and unimaginative.

No, you are!

Furthermore, "HAHAHA SPILL THE BLOOD OF THE INNOCENT TO SUMMON DEMONS HAHAHA!" is just as one-dimensional and boring as "We are the good guys and we win all the time!", and that's the level of "complexity" a lot of 40k "evil" lore is at.

Is it? Or are Chaos illuminated by truth and knowledge, liberating souls from the ignorance of material existence and the false worship of the corpse emperor?

Complex and interesting characters happen regardless of good and evil. Or they don't happen, regardless of good and evil.

The dichotomy of good and evil lacks complexity and nuance by its very nature. It makes everything into an objective binary and precludes interpretation or being open-ended. How is that interesting?

 Luciferian wrote:

Complex and interesting characters happen regardless of good and evil. Or they don't happen, regardless of good and evil.

The dichotomy of good and evil lacks complexity and nuance by its very nature. It makes everything into an objective binary and precludes interpretation or being open-ended. How is that interesting?

Lord of the Rings has to be the most Manichean fantasy setting out there, and it doesn't make it less interesting in any shape or form. Is just another way to construct a universe/present races/factions, etc...
Is just a tool, and as any tool it can have a good use or a bad use. The same aplies at the inverse, not a universe is interesting for the only fact of not having "good guys" and "bad guys"

 Galas wrote:

Lord of the Rings has to be the most Manichean fantasy setting out there, and it doesn't make it less interesting in any shape or form.

I disagree. I personally loathe The Lord of the Rings and its clones and find them very uninteresting. In my eyes, once you break everything down into who is "good" and who is "evil", the only question left is how long the "good" people are going to obstruct themselves and each other through weakness of character and pointless bickering until they get their gak together and claim their inevitable triumphant victory.

The same aplies at the inverse, not a universe is interesting for the only fact of not having "good guys" and "bad guys"

I'm certainly not claiming that, merely that it leaves a lot more options on the table.

Harlequin player and enthusiast here, and, er... nope. They're definitely not 'good guys' as a whole. There are masques like the Frozen Stars who are as bad as they come.

If you're looking for an Eldar faction you can reasonably call 'good guys', look at the Exodites.

 Luciferian wrote:

 Galas wrote:

Lord of the Rings has to be the most Manichean fantasy setting out there, and it doesn't make it less interesting in any shape or form.

I disagree. I personally loathe The Lord of the Rings and its clones and find them very uninteresting. In my eyes, once you break everything down into who is "good" and who is "evil", the only question left is how long the "good" people are going to obstruct themselves and each other through weakness of character and pointless bickering until they get their gak together and claim their inevitable triumphant victory.

The same aplies at the inverse, not a universe is interesting for the only fact of not having "good guys" and "bad guys"

I'm certainly not claiming that, merely that it leaves a lot more options on the table.

Well, it comes down to tastes and personal oppinions. I can see why you don't like or find interesting the Lord of the Rings Premises. Personally I have no problem with it. It doesn't mean that I don't like a dark-grey world as 40k. After many years I have realized that to me is very hard to not liking something I like things in different degrees, but the point of "No no, this just utter garbage" has never happened with anything. The least I can like something is more like "Nah, it just doesn't interest me"

there are no good guys in the 40k universe, it is a field of gray and black. you have the full on monocle and mustache twirling tzeench followers, the psychopath khorne on the one end, and then the tau, salamanders, and probably ultramar on the other end where if you lived in the 40k univers you would be lucky to end up on. all are bad by our societal standards which is why it is called grimmdark

Horus is the real hero. He who made the ultimate sacrifice of soul and body to dethrone a tyrannical despot. This ancient monster had fixated on enslaving all of humanity with the diabolic plan of evolving the whole race into witches.

Sadly Horus' sacrifice was in vain, and the zombie liche continues to contrive his fickle plans against humanity's future.

It is only Horus' greatest son, Ezekiel, that can see how his father failed and how to avenge humanity and permanently kill the zombie king.

I guess it depends on your view if their are good guys. Some people might say swashbuckling pirates were the epitome of heroics and the people's champions, but you probably won't find many people saying that about Dark Eldar

nareik wrote:
Horus is the real hero. He who made the ultimate sacrifice of soul and body to dethrone a tyrannical despot. This ancient monster had fixated on enslaving all of humanity with the diabolic plan of evolving the whole race into witches.

Sadly Horus' sacrifice was in vain, and the zombie liche continues to contrive his fickle plans against humanity's future.

It is only Horus' greatest son, Ezekiel, that can see how his father failed and how to avenge humanity and permanently kill the zombie king.

Maybe Horus should have done a better job and not been out-Generaled by Rogal Dorn, the true hero of the setting.