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I've seen this in severa threads as a response to people who've had their current list invalidated in some way by rules changing for 8th. Couple issues with this response:
1) Is there anybody who considered Narrative a real thing? Personally I consider it the shallow kiddie pool. "Oh, you've got some army that doesn't fit into 8th or you just have random models? BE BANISHED TO NARRATIVE LAND! You should've been psychic to know your army would be invalidated when you bought it and spent hours painting it months or years ago!"
Matched is functionally, for most, the only game mode. It's designed to be the most balanced, tournaments use it, almost everyone is used to having points.
2) It's very dismissive. It sends the message of, "You can't play for real (Matched), but there's this inferior alternative for you. Or just go buy and model and paint new stuff or buy a new army."
Not saying there's a better alternative. It's just this particular comment reads as "Sorry, but you can still play. Just not for real."
(I don't know the difference between Open and Narrative, they seem the same to me. If that's the case, then they're both DoA.)
The invalidation of reserve-based lists is ridiculous. The cliche "oh play Narrative and BEG AT YOUR OPPONENT'S FEET FOR CONSESSIONS AND HOUSERULES" comment is even worse.
Peregrine - If you like the army buy it, and don't worry about what one random person on the internet thinks.
If you thought they could balance the game and still leave every single person's netlist as strong as it was before the big remake, you're naive and you need a huge reality check.
Yes, you might have to buy some stuff to get the strongest list again. You're going to have to buck up and live with that. Whining about it is pointless.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/18 13:53:05
"The strongest list" is irrelevant. Tau or Eldar armies with 3 Riptides or 90 Scatterbikes or whatever is broken now will work just fine in this edition. It's the fluff lists that are hurting, such as Marine drop pod lists and Guard AirCav. The entire Elysian army list has effectively been invalidated by these changes, unless there's a specific consession in their rules that allows unlimited reserves.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/18 13:55:21
Peregrine - If you like the army buy it, and don't worry about what one random person on the internet thinks.
The way I look at it is that if you purchased a bunch of drop pods, then this won't matter to you. Either;
#1 - You bought a bunch because you love the idea of Space Marines falling to the surface to bring sweet death to their enemies. In this case, you care about the fluff, and I'd be absolutely willing to play a Narrative or Open game with you so you can experience that.
#2 - You bought a bunch because you wanted to win. In this case, you probably buy lots of stuff because you want to win. Now you will buy new stuff as you always had and the pods will not be used every time.
Either way, I don't think people that have a lot of pods should really feel bad about not using all of them in tournaments.
Galef wrote: If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
1.)What armies have been invalidated? What has been confirmed as being invalidated?
2.)When has there been a time where a single list was not potentially invalidated at any time. Every edition change invalidates some lists, every codex release invalidates others.
It is becoming more and more clear that if you want to not get completely screwed by change you have 2 options.
1.) Army hop, always buy the new hotness.
2.) Collect a faction, not a list. That way your "army" can evolve and change with the rules.
Verviedi wrote: "The strongest list" is irrelevant. Tau or Eldar armies with 3 Riptides or 90 Scatterbikes or whatever is broken now will work just fine in this edition. It's the fluff lists that are hurting, such as Marine drop pod lists and Guard AirCav. The entire Elysian army list has effectively been invalidated by these changes, unless there's a specific consession in their rules that allows unlimited reserves.
No they haven't. You just have to field half of them. The only thing stopping you is that it isn't strong
Verviedi wrote: "The strongest list" is irrelevant. Tau or Eldar armies with 3 Riptides or 90 Scatterbikes or whatever is broken now will work just fine in this edition. It's the fluff lists that are hurting, such as Marine drop pod lists and Guard AirCav. The entire Elysian army list has effectively been invalidated by these changes, unless there's a specific consession in their rules that allows unlimited reserves.
No they haven't. You just have to field half of them. The only thing stopping you is that it isn't strong
So I need to violate the fluff of my army by deploying ground troops in a list themed around ing paratroopers? Or take half of my army on the ground in a Drop Pod rapid strike list, violating the fluff as well?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/18 14:00:56
Peregrine - If you like the army buy it, and don't worry about what one random person on the internet thinks.
Verviedi wrote: "The strongest list" is irrelevant. Tau or Eldar armies with 3 Riptides or 90 Scatterbikes or whatever is broken now will work just fine in this edition. It's the fluff lists that are hurting, such as Marine drop pod lists and Guard AirCav. The entire Elysian army list has effectively been invalidated by these changes, unless there's a specific consession in their rules that allows unlimited reserves.
We have no idea whether these units will give you exceptions to the rules just like in 6e. Further full reserve lists are a huge advantage in game if they have reliable delivery. All pod armies look cool, but are frequently not a good play experience for the opponent. I'm willing to sacrifice the idea of all pod, to create more enjoyable games for both players.
Would like to note that Narrative play can still be Matched Play. Narrative simply means you're playing some kind of story or scenario beyond "my guys go here and hold this point for a turn"
Open play lets you play however you want with what ever you want.
That being said, my guess is that given the change to reserves GW is expecting most games to only last between 4-5 games
Verviedi wrote: "The strongest list" is irrelevant. Tau or Eldar armies with 3 Riptides or 90 Scatterbikes or whatever is broken now will work just fine in this edition. It's the fluff lists that are hurting, such as Marine drop pod lists and Guard AirCav. The entire Elysian army list has effectively been invalidated by these changes, unless there's a specific consession in their rules that allows unlimited reserves.
We have no idea whether these units will give you exceptions to the rules just like in 6e. Further full reserve lists are a huge advantage in game if they have reliable delivery. All pod armies look cool, but are frequently not a good play experience for the opponent. I'm willing to sacrifice the idea of all pod, to create more enjoyable games for both players.
My only statement pertaining to that is they'd better. Otherwise you'll be compromising the fluff for "reasons" (I cannot think of a single good reason for forcing half your army to stay on the board).
Peregrine - If you like the army buy it, and don't worry about what one random person on the internet thinks.
1) Drop pod assault is something they've STRONGLY hinted is going to have some sort of mitigation to the rule. If you need to field a couple land speeder storms and maybe a scout bike in order to field 6-7 drop pod units, or if they have a variant of the current pod assault rule where they don't count towards the limit but have to do the "1/2 come in" rule rather than all showing up at once, your list isn't invalidated. You just have to adjust it a little bit for the new edition, something that most people will have to do.
2) If your army is so shoved into a specific structure that it requires a formation, a character's special rules, a particular relic, and a particular unit special rule to go unchanged for it to function at all, then yeah, expect your army list to be invalidated. The guy who currently plays a full gladius with 10 HB razorbacks is proooooobably going to have a few useless razorbacks, and we don't see someone trying to drum up sympathy for him. I know a guy who really hopes that his Imperial Guard blob+Hunters Eye Cataphractii Terminator Chapter Master+Rad and Psychotroke Inquisitor+Priest with Litanies+Chapter Master Azreal army setup will still work in 8th. It won't. I'm sorry. Something in there's going to change - probably multiple things!
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Everyone is going to have to adjust their lists. I am sorry, but that should be the very nature of an edition change. I think it was best said that between 4th and 7th you didn't really have edition changes. You could pretty much use the previous editions codex with the new rules without actually having a huge issue.
I started playing this game under Rogue trader. The jump to 2nd edition resulted in everyone having to learn to use set lists. Then the jump to 3rd required a FOC. This means some armies were invalidated completely.
So, yes, your current army may be invalidated. It doesn't mean your army cannot be reconfigured into the new FOCs. You just like everyone else is going to have to figure out what works for you.
On narrative and open play. Open play is literally a method of teaching someone how to actually play the game. Nothing more then that. You toss some models onto the table and play. Without worrying about points or balance. Narrative play is when you want to play a campaign or story. It's not meant to be a match play. That is why they made match play in the first place.
You won't find tournaments run by narrative play. What you might find though is a campaign run by narrative play involving a large number of people.
Verviedi wrote: "The strongest list" is irrelevant. Tau or Eldar armies with 3 Riptides or 90 Scatterbikes or whatever is broken now will work just fine in this edition. It's the fluff lists that are hurting, such as Marine drop pod lists and Guard AirCav. The entire Elysian army list has effectively been invalidated by these changes, unless there's a specific consession in their rules that allows unlimited reserves.
No they haven't. You just have to field half of them. The only thing stopping you is that it isn't strong
So I need to violate the fluff of my army by deploying ground troops in a list themed around ing paratroopers? Or take half of my army on the ground in a Drop Pod rapid strike list, violating the fluff as well?
Because it is completely unthinkable that half your army has already paratrooped in and are holding the ground while waiting for the reinforcements of their brothers?
Don't give me that fluff bull. There is nothing stopping you from playing your army, you just want there to be because you can't play it in exactly the one way that you want to play it. I'm sorry, but balancing means things change. Get over it.
Verviedi wrote: "The strongest list" is irrelevant. Tau or Eldar armies with 3 Riptides or 90 Scatterbikes or whatever is broken now will work just fine in this edition. It's the fluff lists that are hurting, such as Marine drop pod lists and Guard AirCav. The entire Elysian army list has effectively been invalidated by these changes, unless there's a specific consession in their rules that allows unlimited reserves.
No they haven't. You just have to field half of them. The only thing stopping you is that it isn't strong
So I need to violate the fluff of my army by deploying ground troops in a list themed around ing paratroopers? Or take half of my army on the ground in a Drop Pod rapid strike list, violating the fluff as well?
The game's starting point is where some of the Paratroopers or Drop Pods have already landed on the board.
1) Drop pod assault is something they've STRONGLY hinted is going to have some sort of mitigation to the rule. If you need to field a couple land speeder storms and maybe a scout bike in order to field 6-7 drop pod units, or if they have a variant of the current pod assault rule where they don't count towards the limit but have to do the "1/2 come in" rule rather than all showing up at once, your list isn't invalidated. You just have to adjust it a little bit for the new edition, something that most people will have to do.
2) If your army is so shoved into a specific structure that it requires a formation, a character's special rules, a particular relic, and a particular unit special rule to go unchanged for it to function at all, then yeah, expect your army list to be invalidated. The guy who currently plays a full gladius with 10 HB razorbacks is proooooobably going to have a few useless razorbacks, and we don't see someone trying to drum up sympathy for him. I know a guy who really hopes that his Imperial Guard blob+Hunters Eye Cataphractii Terminator Chapter Master+Rad and Psychotroke Inquisitor+Priest with Litanies+Chapter Master Azreal army setup will still work in 8th. It won't. I'm sorry. Something in there's going to change - probably multiple things!
Hinted where? Show me.
Those "super specific character stacking" lists need to die. I have no issue with that. My primary issues with the new edition are this:
Failure to mitigate enough randomness. Running and charging is still random. You say "But what about the models with 15" moves?!" I say make a patch in their datasheet that they run an extra/charge an extra X", instead of an extra 15".
The blast rules suuuck. Especially for artillery. No more teamkilling with scattered blasts, or hitting multiple bunched enemy units.
Depth created by vehicle armor facings, as shallow as it was, is gone. Now, shooting from every angle is equally effective.
Death of USRs, now I need to remember a hundred differently worded bespoke rules for my army.
Verviedi wrote: "The strongest list" is irrelevant. Tau or Eldar armies with 3 Riptides or 90 Scatterbikes or whatever is broken now will work just fine in this edition. It's the fluff lists that are hurting, such as Marine drop pod lists and Guard AirCav. The entire Elysian army list has effectively been invalidated by these changes, unless there's a specific consession in their rules that allows unlimited reserves.
No they haven't. You just have to field half of them. The only thing stopping you is that it isn't strong
So I need to violate the fluff of my army by deploying ground troops in a list themed around ing paratroopers? Or take half of my army on the ground in a Drop Pod rapid strike list, violating the fluff as well?
Because it is completely unthinkable that half your army has already paratrooped in and are holding the ground while waiting for the reinforcements of their brothers?
Don't give me that fluff bull. There is nothing stopping you from playing your army, you just want there to be because you can't play it in exactly the one way that you want to play it. I'm sorry, but balancing means things change. Get over it.
Dropped in INTO MY DEPLOYMENT ZONE? Taking away my freedom as a player to move the Valkyries/transports around and drop things where I choose, instead of conforming with gamey garbage?
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/05/18 14:10:53
Peregrine - If you like the army buy it, and don't worry about what one random person on the internet thinks.
Verviedi wrote: "The strongest list" is irrelevant. Tau or Eldar armies with 3 Riptides or 90 Scatterbikes or whatever is broken now will work just fine in this edition. It's the fluff lists that are hurting, such as Marine drop pod lists and Guard AirCav. The entire Elysian army list has effectively been invalidated by these changes, unless there's a specific consession in their rules that allows unlimited reserves.
We have no idea whether these units will give you exceptions to the rules just like in 6e. Further full reserve lists are a huge advantage in game if they have reliable delivery. All pod armies look cool, but are frequently not a good play experience for the opponent. I'm willing to sacrifice the idea of all pod, to create more enjoyable games for both players.
My only statement pertaining to that is they'd better. Otherwise you'll be compromising the fluff for "reasons" (I cannot think of a single good reason for forcing half your army to stay on the board).
"reasons" is having a more fun game. Allowing armies to start off the board, often means that you can deny a meaningful first turn for your opponent, while guaranteeing yourself to always have an alpha strike. So essentially you always get the advantage of going first, while also being able to have the advantage of going second. There is little to know compromising of fluff, just a limited view of it from the standpoint of the player.
Dropped in INTO MY DEPLOYMENT ZONE? Taking away my freedom as a player to move the Valkyries/transports around and drop things where I choose, instead of conforming with gamey garbage?
This reads like, I don't care about fluff, I care about the neat trick my list had.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/18 14:15:02
Verviedi wrote: "The strongest list" is irrelevant. Tau or Eldar armies with 3 Riptides or 90 Scatterbikes or whatever is broken now will work just fine in this edition. It's the fluff lists that are hurting, such as Marine drop pod lists and Guard AirCav. The entire Elysian army list has effectively been invalidated by these changes, unless there's a specific consession in their rules that allows unlimited reserves.
We have no idea whether these units will give you exceptions to the rules just like in 6e. Further full reserve lists are a huge advantage in game if they have reliable delivery. All pod armies look cool, but are frequently not a good play experience for the opponent. I'm willing to sacrifice the idea of all pod, to create more enjoyable games for both players.
My only statement pertaining to that is they'd better. Otherwise you'll be compromising the fluff for "reasons" (I cannot think of a single good reason for forcing half your army to stay on the board).
"reasons" is having a more fun game. Allowing armies to start off the board, often means that you can deny a meaningful first turn for your opponent, while guaranteeing yourself to always have an alpha strike. So essentially you always get the advantage of going first, while also being able to have the advantage of going second. There is little to know compromising of fluff, just a limited view of it from the standpoint of the player.
Reserves also allows me to mitigate a devastating alpha strike that would deprive me of my enjoyment in the game, due to my army being annihilated. My Tau suit drop list is severely hurt by this.
Dropped in INTO MY DEPLOYMENT ZONE? Taking away my freedom as a player to move the Valkyries/transports around and drop things where I choose, instead of conforming with gamey garbage?
This reads like, I don't care about fluff, I care about the neat trick my list had.
This neat trick is fluffy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/18 14:15:55
Peregrine - If you like the army buy it, and don't worry about what one random person on the internet thinks.
The key defense to an Alphastrike is to Castle or null. If null is mitigated, so is Alphastrike, with betastrike being reduced to piece-trading. Thus the game devolves into bigger castles and bigger gunlines (aka why Free People Gunlines are a thing in AOS, etc)
You have no idea what that means. And he's completely right.
"DROPPED INTO MY DEPLOYMENT ZONE!?" Because you can't see anything but a gaming table. If you actually thought about it fluffy, why are they there specifically? The deployment zone isn't some magical ground. It's just where your troops happened to be when they saw the enemy and had to scramble into positions to face the threat. Those guys dropped hours ago and have been securing the cityscape. They're one of several such troops moving in different directions. They recently saw the enemy as they were advancing, dug in and called for the support that was in the air for just this scenario, to put more men on the ground where they were needed.
If you see it as a game board and not as a piece of a larger area, then you're not trying to play fluffy. You're sad that your cool gaming trick isn't fully 100% viable anymore.
Verviedi wrote: "The strongest list" is irrelevant. Tau or Eldar armies with 3 Riptides or 90 Scatterbikes or whatever is broken now will work just fine in this edition. It's the fluff lists that are hurting, such as Marine drop pod lists and Guard AirCav. The entire Elysian army list has effectively been invalidated by these changes, unless there's a specific consession in their rules that allows unlimited reserves.
We have no idea whether these units will give you exceptions to the rules just like in 6e. Further full reserve lists are a huge advantage in game if they have reliable delivery. All pod armies look cool, but are frequently not a good play experience for the opponent. I'm willing to sacrifice the idea of all pod, to create more enjoyable games for both players.
My only statement pertaining to that is they'd better. Otherwise you'll be compromising the fluff for "reasons" (I cannot think of a single good reason for forcing half your army to stay on the board).
"reasons" is having a more fun game. Allowing armies to start off the board, often means that you can deny a meaningful first turn for your opponent, while guaranteeing yourself to always have an alpha strike. So essentially you always get the advantage of going first, while also being able to have the advantage of going second. There is little to know compromising of fluff, just a limited view of it from the standpoint of the player.
Reserves also allows me to mitigate a devastating alpha strike that would deprive me of my enjoyment in the game, due to my army being annihilated. My Tau suit drop list is severely hurt by this.
Dropped in INTO MY DEPLOYMENT ZONE? Taking away my freedom as a player to move the Valkyries/transports around and drop things where I choose, instead of conforming with gamey garbage?
This reads like, I don't care about fluff, I care about the neat trick my list had.
This neat trick is fluffy.
Reserving half your army also allows you to mitigate an devastating alpha strike. The neat trick is not any more fluffy than saying as was previously noted that part of your force already dropped in pre-game to secure a position. So you want the neat trick of being able to always alpha strike your opponent while always denying the opposing alpha strike. Also else do you fluff justify the pod v pod match up where one guy drops in on nothing, allowing the other to pick him apart. TO me null deploy is actually less fluffy outside of a pre-arranged scenario where one player is a defender.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MagicJuggler wrote: The key defense to an Alphastrike is to Castle or null. If null is mitigated, so is Alphastrike, with betastrike being reduced to piece-trading. Thus the game devolves into bigger castles and bigger gunlines (aka why Free People Gunlines are a thing in AOS, etc)
Depends on terrain, being able to hide out of LOS with some units while others are reserved is also a means to mitigate alpha strike.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/18 14:25:50
Verviedi wrote: "The strongest list" is irrelevant. Tau or Eldar armies with 3 Riptides or 90 Scatterbikes or whatever is broken now will work just fine in this edition. It's the fluff lists that are hurting, such as Marine drop pod lists and Guard AirCav. The entire Elysian army list has effectively been invalidated by these changes, unless there's a specific consession in their rules that allows unlimited reserves.
No they haven't. You just have to field half of them. The only thing stopping you is that it isn't strong
So I need to violate the fluff of my army by deploying ground troops in a list themed around ing paratroopers? Or take half of my army on the ground in a Drop Pod rapid strike list, violating the fluff as well?
There is a large difference between "air cavalry" and "paratroopers". One operates in tandem with their transports while the others jump out the back and are done.
And Elysians, fluffwise, have ground based forward elements that scout out insertion points.
Same thing goes for the Drop Pod rapid strike lists. It's always been a thing, in the fluff, that Astartes Scouts prep the landing zone and survey the enemy's numbers before the actual insertions begin.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
HaussVonHorne wrote: I've seen this in severa threads as a response to people who've had their current list invalidated in some way by rules changing for 8th. Couple issues with this response:
1) Is there anybody who considered Narrative a real thing? Personally I consider it the shallow kiddie pool. "Oh, you've got some army that doesn't fit into 8th or you just have random models? BE BANISHED TO NARRATIVE LAND! You should've been psychic to know your army would be invalidated when you bought it and spent hours painting it months or years ago!"
Matched is functionally, for most, the only game mode. It's designed to be the most balanced, tournaments use it, almost everyone is used to having points.
2) It's very dismissive. It sends the message of, "You can't play for real (Matched), but there's this inferior alternative for you. Or just go buy and model and paint new stuff or buy a new army."
Not saying there's a better alternative. It's just this particular comment reads as "Sorry, but you can still play. Just not for real."
INB4:
The whole "well you can always play narrative..." thing is less a dismissal of lists being invalidated and more a dismissal of concerns about the game taking a heavy tournament bend.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/18 14:29:15
That sounds more like a function of certain units abilities/combos rather than "who gets to reserve". Be it Warp Spiders getting Battle Focus to mitigate Deepstrike and Flickerjump to defend against Intercept, Tau with Rapid Insertion forces and Interceptor, even the fringe Decurion list (Jon Camacho's Living Tomb + Deathmark support).
Rather than artificially restricting Reserve, perhaps rework Overwatch period?
You have no idea what that means. And he's completely right.
"DROPPED INTO MY DEPLOYMENT ZONE!?" Because you can't see anything but a gaming table. If you actually thought about it fluffy, why are they there specifically? The deployment zone isn't some magical ground. It's just where your troops happened to be when they saw the enemy and had to scramble into positions to face the threat. Those guys dropped hours ago and have been securing the cityscape. They're one of several such troops moving in different directions. They recently saw the enemy as they were advancing, dug in and called for the support that was in the air for just this scenario, to put more men on the ground where they were needed.
If you see it as a game board and not as a piece of a larger area, then you're not trying to play fluffy. You're sad that your cool gaming trick isn't fully 100% viable anymore.
That works in one case. What if my narrative is a sudden Apocalypse Now style helicopter assault, or coordinated deep strike with drop pods, or a Mont'ka with two squads of bait Pathfinders on the board and twenty Crisis suits dropping in? Then your argument fails utterly, because AT MOST, only one squad of Scouts would be on the board, providing recon for the strike.
Verviedi wrote: "The strongest list" is irrelevant. Tau or Eldar armies with 3 Riptides or 90 Scatterbikes or whatever is broken now will work just fine in this edition. It's the fluff lists that are hurting, such as Marine drop pod lists and Guard AirCav. The entire Elysian army list has effectively been invalidated by these changes, unless there's a specific consession in their rules that allows unlimited reserves.
We have no idea whether these units will give you exceptions to the rules just like in 6e. Further full reserve lists are a huge advantage in game if they have reliable delivery. All pod armies look cool, but are frequently not a good play experience for the opponent. I'm willing to sacrifice the idea of all pod, to create more enjoyable games for both players.
My only statement pertaining to that is they'd better. Otherwise you'll be compromising the fluff for "reasons" (I cannot think of a single good reason for forcing half your army to stay on the board).
"reasons" is having a more fun game. Allowing armies to start off the board, often means that you can deny a meaningful first turn for your opponent, while guaranteeing yourself to always have an alpha strike. So essentially you always get the advantage of going first, while also being able to have the advantage of going second. There is little to know compromising of fluff, just a limited view of it from the standpoint of the player.
Reserves also allows me to mitigate a devastating alpha strike that would deprive me of my enjoyment in the game, due to my army being annihilated. My Tau suit drop list is severely hurt by this.
Dropped in INTO MY DEPLOYMENT ZONE? Taking away my freedom as a player to move the Valkyries/transports around and drop things where I choose, instead of conforming with gamey garbage?
This reads like, I don't care about fluff, I care about the neat trick my list had.
This neat trick is fluffy.
Reserving half your army also allows you to mitigate an devastating alpha strike. The neat trick is not any more fluffy than saying as was previously noted that part of your force already dropped in pre-game to secure a position. So you want the neat trick of being able to always alpha strike your opponent while always denying the opposing alpha strike.
That's the entire role of most drop lists. Strong alpha strike, fragile, effectiveness is lowered after the first turn. That is how drop lists work in fluff, that's how they work in the books, and that's how they would work ingame if The Sacred GW in their infinite wisdom had not neutered them.
Peregrine - If you like the army buy it, and don't worry about what one random person on the internet thinks.
Full drop-pod lists are still fluffy and playable. It's just that now the game starts after half of your troops already landed (and landed in your deployment zone, thank-you-very-much).
First off, chasing the most powerful army list is always going to cost money after an edition change. Anyone that plays that way should know upfront that is how it works. Player that whine about their super powerful, netlist army becoming invalidated sound like someone who built the most powerful computer last year and now it is not. The best is always going to change and if you want that prepare to always put effort into it.
Secondly, I am actually going to do my best to stay away from matched play. I am still not convinced that 8th edition is going to a worthwhile venture for a challenging, hard choice on the actual tabletop game. I suspect 8th with be more accessible, but still offer limited actual decision points after the army lists have met and are actually on the table.
I am planning to mostly play narrative style. Which to me more of a player building army lists for both sides tailored to be as evenly matched to each other for the custom scenario that also tells a story. Which is quite common for historical gaming and works well since the outside variables are controlled better. It also makes the game more about the players decisions at the table rather than at the list building stage.
I know not every player wants play this way. In fact, few players do, but enough I can get in games. It takes extra work as the scenario designer, game master, has to have a list of both players lists (bonus points if they know what units the other player likes fielding) and very good knowledge of how the game works. I done it many times with other games to include full campaigns. It was some work but worth it to me. I want an interesting (read: close, action packed) game when I play. I also want the game to tell a story.
I think the OP has it in their mind that narrative play is just push dudes around the table making pew, pew sounds with the outcome pre-determined. Done right, that couldn't be further from the truth. When a narrative game has two balanced [-ish] forces for the scenario mission, it can be some the toughest, no holds barred gaming you can get as you know you and your opponent started the game on relatively equal footing.
That works in one case. What if my narrative is a sudden Apocalypse Now style helicopter assault, or coordinated deep strike with drop pods, or a Mont'ka with two squads of bait Pathfinders on the board and twenty Crisis suits dropping in? Then your argument fails utterly, because AT MOST, only one squad of Scouts would be on the board, providing recon for the strike.
And what if my narrative is that we're floating in weghtless space so I get to set up anywhere on the map as our models have no control!
And what if my narrative is that I win the game and you lose it so we just set up and then you lose!
you don't get to restrict the narrative in matched play to only the exact storyline you want it to be. Unlike what you said from the start, it is fully supported by the fluff that you have half your army on the board so the "fluff"-argument is nonsensical.
And if you just have to have it be your specific narrative... then just play narrative play.
That sounds more like a function of certain units abilities/combos rather than "who gets to reserve". Be it Warp Spiders getting Battle Focus to mitigate Deepstrike and Flickerjump to defend against Intercept, Tau with Rapid Insertion forces and Interceptor, even the fringe Decurion list (Jon Camacho's Living Tomb + Deathmark support).
Rather than artificially restricting Reserve, perhaps rework Overwatch period?
No it is a reserves issue unless they are entirely random. If I can reserve my whole army giving you nothing to shoot at and then come on reliably and get my pick of shots, I always get the alpha strike while denying yours. It has nothing to do with combos of units. It has been this way for a long time. They tried to fix it in 6e with the must deploy unless special rules state other wise, and losing at the end of a game turn if nothing is on the table. Unless you limited reserves to only bad units can reserve then it or make it very random (like 5e or worse) it is always strong. Then things like pods mitigate that randomness, or bonuses to rolls, etc. So if you want full reserves lets have it be, if you have nothing on the table at the end of your turn you lose. Nothing auto arrives. Turn 1 your units come in on a 6+, Turn 2 5+, turn 3 4+ etc. super random, meaning you have no assurance of getting an alpha strike.
ing paratroopers? Or take half of my army on the ground in a Drop Pod rapid strike list, violating the fluff as well?
