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I could see this being true, at least to start the game off for 8th. I'm interested to see how often and how well GW handles the rebalancing of points over time, and how Power Level works as a metric for army construction.
I will be creating an azyr comp version of 40k upon release to gauge just how accurate the power levels are and how the points are to find how undercosted some units may be.
auticus wrote: I will be creating an azyr comp version of 40k upon release to gauge just how accurate the power levels are and how the points are to find how undercosted some units may be.
Given that there exist both squads with no costed options at all (Necron Warriors) and squads that can easily quadruple their cost with upgrades (Deathwatch Veterans) I don't think an approximate points equivalent for the 'power level' thing is going to be possible.
Though it'd be kind of hilarious if GW gave Deathwatch Veterans a 'power level' cost based on the baseline 22ppm and you could get storm shields, frag cannons, and thunder hammers for free (65pts of stuff per dude under the current book).
We know for sure that equipment and upgrades do no affect Power Level, only more models seems to add to PL. This likely will mean the units no upgrade (like Necron warriors) might suffer in the PL system more than units that have loads of upgrades. Unless this was accounted for as mentioned above.
What I really like about the PL system is that is can be used as a "check" for the Points system (or vice versa) If you and I want to play a 1500pt Matched play game, but for some reason your army is 120PL, but mine is only 100PL, then maybe that is a good indicator of which side is stronger. I suspect attempting to build lists that adhere to same points AND power level is a much better way to have a balanced army and a "fair" game So both players build armies that are 1500pts and 100PL
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/19 18:12:24
Galef wrote: We know for sure that equipment and upgrades do no affect Power Level, only more models seems to add to PL.
This likely will mean the units no upgrade (like Necron warriors) might suffer in the PL system more than units that have loads of upgrades. Unless this was accounted for as mentioned above.
What I really like about the PL system is that is can be used as a "check" for the Points system (or vice versa)
If you and I want to play a 1500pt Matched play game, but for some reason your army is 120PL, but mine is only 100PL, then maybe that is a good indicator of which side is stronger.
I suspect attempting to build lists that adhere to same points AND power level is a much better way to have a balanced army and a "fair" game
So both players build armies that are 1500pts and 100PL
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...What?
PL doesn't take into account upgrades.
A 1,500pt Necron army is going to be, almost by definition, rather a lot more PL than a 1,500pt Deathwatch army because they can't purchase as many upgrades.
Trying to make people build to the same points and same PL isn't going to solve any problems, it's just going to make things more confusing.
Galef wrote: We know for sure that equipment and upgrades do no affect Power Level, only more models seems to add to PL.
This likely will mean the units no upgrade (like Necron warriors) might suffer in the PL system more than units that have loads of upgrades. Unless this was accounted for as mentioned above.
What I really like about the PL system is that is can be used as a "check" for the Points system (or vice versa)
If you and I want to play a 1500pt Matched play game, but for some reason your army is 120PL, but mine is only 100PL, then maybe that is a good indicator of which side is stronger.
I suspect attempting to build lists that adhere to same points AND power level is a much better way to have a balanced army and a "fair" game
So both players build armies that are 1500pts and 100PL
-
I believe I saw somewhere that the power level ratings assumed taking optimal equipment load out (if points were not an issue). As such it may not be a great check on points. I would assume though that Necron units with no upgrades would have a lower power level than similar units that have upgrades.
Galef wrote: We know for sure that equipment and upgrades do no affect Power Level, only more models seems to add to PL. This likely will mean the units no upgrade (like Necron warriors) might suffer in the PL system more than units that have loads of upgrades. Unless this was accounted for as mentioned above.
What I really like about the PL system is that is can be used as a "check" for the Points system (or vice versa) If you and I want to play a 1500pt Matched play game, but for some reason your army is 120PL, but mine is only 100PL, then maybe that is a good indicator of which side is stronger. I suspect attempting to build lists that adhere to same points AND power level is a much better way to have a balanced army and a "fair" game So both players build armies that are 1500pts and 100PL
-
...What?
PL doesn't take into account upgrades.
A 1,500pt Necron army is going to be, almost by definition, rather a lot more PL than a 1,500pt Deathwatch army because they can't purchase as many upgrades.
Trying to make people build to the same points and same PL isn't going to solve any problems, it's just going to make things more confusing
.
I see what you are saying. I was thinking from an equal PL standpoint, not equal points. But I still think trying to match both is a good way to gauge a "true" equality. Will it be easy? probably not. Will players do it? again, probably not.
My hope is that there is a close equivalent like 1PL=15pts. So if both players build a list that is no more than 1500pts AND at least 100PL, then it creates a better balance. If you can't reach the PL, you have to drop some upgrades to add more models, thus staying at the right points level If you've reached the PL, but your points are too high drop some upgrades. Or if the points are too low, then add some upgrades
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/05/19 18:59:30
I think power level is the dumbest thing I've seen come out of this so far. It seems like a noble attempt at balancing the game but it's not going to work.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: I think power level is the dumbest thing I've seen come out of this so far. It seems like a noble attempt at balancing the game but it's not going to work.
I mean neither did points really. But points are supposed to be most balanced, power level is supposed to be ball park. i.e. not points but not nothing. So if you think AOS when it had no points it will be a guide so one guy doesn't show up with 8 bane blades and the other guy shows up with 1500 points of tactical marines. While being less granular and easier to pick up then points. Also for things like Apocalypse I think it is good because sides can be approximately equal without spending time worrying about buying upgrades etc which are largely meaningless when both sides have 10k+ points worth of models.
Xenomancers wrote: I think power level is the dumbest thing I've seen come out of this so far. It seems like a noble attempt at balancing the game but it's not going to work.
I don't think Power level is meant to balance anything. it is just a very rough estimate for players to use if they want to put models on the board without micro-managing their units. It is only meant to prevent games from being overly lopsided (like AoS was in the beginning) There is still going to be a player with more points than the other if just using PL, but the idea is that they won't have too many more points. (hopefully less than 10-20% variance)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/19 19:20:33
Just as a small update, I now believe power levels are looking more like 20pts.
The new poxwalkers are PL3 for a 60pt squad, the intercessors are PL6 for a 120pt squad. Inceptors are PL8 for a 159pt squad, and captain with gravis armour is PL7 for a 148pt model.
I am confused with the hellblaster squad though, it appears to be PL12, but their points only add up to 200 from the leaks.
Fully Painted Armies: 2200pts Orks 1000pts Space Marines 1200pts Tau 2500pts Blood Angels 3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades and 1700pts Daemons 450pts Imperial Knights
auticus wrote: I will be creating an azyr comp version of 40k upon release to gauge just how accurate the power levels are and how the points are to find how undercosted some units may be.
To be honest, I think you'd be wasting your time. People who care about balance are going to be playing Matched anyway.
Xenomancers wrote: I think power level is the dumbest thing I've seen come out of this so far. It seems like a noble attempt at balancing the game but it's not going to work.
Yeah, they're not really there to balance the game. Power levels are just a guideline for people who balance their own game. Saves on intergroup playtesting' which was actually Sigmar's big problem at first; i.e. you had to play the same 2 armies against each other for like 3 months to know roughly how good everything was.
Technically speaking points aren't really there for balance either. They're more for giving competitive players a system to break that the designers can tweak over time.
DoomMouse wrote: Just as a small update, I now believe power levels are looking more like 20pts.
The new poxwalkers are PL3 for a 60pt squad, the intercessors are PL6 for a 120pt squad. Inceptors are PL8 for a 159pt squad, and captain with gravis armour is PL7 for a 148pt model.
I am confused with the hellblaster squad though, it appears to be PL12, but their points only add up to 200 from the leaks.
Then those Sniper Drones better be able to get some serious buffing most of the time, since at PL3 for 3, that's 20 points a Drone. At their statline, even with their (now no longer psuedo-rendless) longer range Pulse weaponry, they seem exceptionally fragile for so little output... and basically meaningless in terms of actually taking out characters like Gravis Captains and the like.
We'll have to wait and see! If I had to guess, I'm thinking they figure out the point cost range (minimum and maximum), get the mean of that range, and round up or down to the closest PL. Its quick, its easy, its inevitably unbalanced compared to the more precise Point values, but we'll have to see if it ends up being sufficient (for a given definition of sufficient) for the task it is assigned.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/28 22:02:41
Maybe there will be additional rules that make power level make sense over using points in the advanced rules or scenarios. Surely there is a better reason for it to exist than to save 10 seconds on a calculator during list building.
I don't understand the aversion or complication of adding up the same old points that the game has used for decades.
Then don't use them.
See how easy that is?
I don't intend to.
Which, you know, did nothing to address that I have no clue the purpose behind power levels, or in the case of this thread, trying to reverse engineer the formula.
But I'm glad you took the time to point out the obvious that I could just not use them. Thanks for that, I was under the impression I was forced to use them.
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress
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The Eldar, their power level...It's over NINE THOUSAND!!! Now that that's out of the way, I find it interesting that GW haven't managed to make a balanced game with one rating system so they're trying two.
Must be hoping to double their odds and strike it lucky.
I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go.
1000pts Space Marines 
1200pts Tau 
2500pts Blood Angels 
3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades 
and 1700pts Daemons 
450pts Imperial Knights 
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress 
