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With the release of the Tyranid faction focus we get a good indication at how brutal close combat is going to be.

After the outcry of giving certain T'au () units the ability to disengage and still shoot, it sorta makes sense for them now, considering that alot of CC stuff is going to be in charge range T1, T2 max. Its only fair that if anything survives it gets a chance of retribution.

A swarmlord buffed squad of 20 genestealers is 80A on the charge, -4 rend on 6's, with an 8"+D6+8"+2D6+1" 1st turn threat range, meaning at worst 6" on 2D6 charge from the enemy front line T1. That will mulch almost anything it touches, and thats just 1 squad from 1 army.

Scary

KDK and Space wolves are the other two fast CC armies, BA and Harlequins arent slouches either, now that vehicles can charge in soaking overwatch. Slaanesh have lots of fast beasts with rend. Heck even Crons can be quick.

What do we think frands? This edition is going to be bloody.

Sounds strategically hollow.

 Talamare wrote:
Sounds strategically hollow.

I'll take hollow over absent.

Eh... I don't think they fixed any fundamental assault issues.

Yes, there will be assault powerhouses, but those exist in 7E too.

I think overwatch needs to be closer to sw:a overwatch. Otherwise i think they fixed a ton of issues with assault.

They've retained random charge range, they've made it harder to use transports to get into charge range, and they've made heavy weapons more deadly than ever...

So no, from what we've seen so far I have no real confidence that assault armies are going to be any more viable in 8th edition. Yes, they will hypothetically kick butt if they make it into combat. It's the 'if' that's the issue. Make it too hard for armies to do what they are designed to do, and people just won't bother.

It's going to be 60 attacks with scytal more than likely. They have been +1A for a long time.

I still think it's a bit early to be calling it one way or the other. We have snippets here and there of a bit of core rules, but not enough to see all of the interactions yet. We also have some tidbits of info on a few factions, each one showing just how 'awesome' that particular faction is going to be, but again, we don't have all the pieces to the puzzle yet.

When they focus on singular aspects of the rules, without a bigger picture, it's just hard to see how it's all going to fit together.

It looks to me like GW also buffed shooting quite a bit (lots of overwatch, twin-linked getting twice the number of shots, multiple damages on weapons).
I think the plan is to make everything more deadly, so you remove way more models and end up playing faster games.

But without point costs and standard deployment information (if you deploy 6" closer than in 7th, you will usually charge one turn earlier), it's hard to tell anything about the balance between shooting and assaulting.

fresus wrote:
It looks to me like GW also buffed shooting quite a bit (lots of overwatch, twin-linked getting twice the number of shots, multiple damages on weapons).
I think the plan is to make everything more deadly, so you remove way more models and end up playing faster games.

But without point costs and standard deployment information (if you deploy 6" closer than in 7th, you will usually charge one turn earlier), it's hard to tell anything about the balance between shooting and assaulting.

I dunno, a lot of the stuff that got buffed was pretty underwhelming in 7th. did anyone ever look at the land raider and go "OMG! SO MUCH FIREPOWER!" ?

Not enough information to say one way or another, CC looks strong but so do the changes to twin linked and shooting in general. My hope is that shooting and CC will be close enough in effectiveness that armies that can do both, will find that bringing both is a viable strategy.

I do agree that random charge ranges are BS. We have a M attribute. Everyone could just charge M. In fact, it's easy enough to just house rule that if you are all so inclined. ( I am). I am also inclined to say advance is 1/2 M (rounded up) instead of roll a d6. I think it would work much smoother and cut down all the random crap.

 Klowny wrote:
A swarmlord buffed squad of 20 genestealers is 80A on the charge, -4 rend on 6's, with an 8"+D6+8"+2D6+1" 1st turn threat range, meaning at worst 6" on 2D6 charge from the enemy front line T1. That will mulch almost anything it touches, and thats just 1 squad from 1 army.

If I see such a unit of Genestealers, I'm not going to put my guys right at the front of my deployment zone, because that would be asking for it. I might put a chaff unit up there, but my good stuff is going to stay back and hopefully get a turn of shooting in. Don't get me wrong; I think Genestealers and Tyranids in general are going to be pretty good, but there are counters to them (as there should be).

One problem I see is that with the Swarmlord having such a great ability, he's going to probably be an auto-include unless some of the other big bugs are just as good. Auto-include type units were the bane of 7th edition armies' internal balance (Scatbikes and Warp Spiders, anyone? ), as it made tournament armies very samey. I really hope this isn't where armies in 8th end up. I'd like to see some variety, instead of every army I face from a particular faction being a slight variation on the same thing.

I do have high hopes that melee will be as good or better than shooting in 8th edition. This will make some units and armies that suck in 7th edition actually able to compete. Again, more variety in what is played never hurt anyone.

Swarmlord with guard cost about as much as a knight. It's a huge investment in points.

1-st turn charges aren't that frightening. So, genestealers buffed with a swarmlord will wipe a squad they charge. And than? They're alone in the enemy deployment zone. Killed a rhino. Next turn they're out of synapse range and within rapid fire and flamer range of pretty much the whole enemy army.

Don't forget that plain forward rush only works with unkillable deathstars from recent editions. And for as much as we know, the age of unkillable deathstars is over. It can still be tactically useful to capitalize on the opponent's deployment mistake. Or to mulch through an ork horde before it can do anything. But than if you're fielding an ork horde and you see 20 genestealers and a swarmlord, why don't you place, say...a bunch of grots in front?

genestealers don't need synapse.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Eh... I don't think they fixed any fundamental assault issues.

Yes, there will be assault powerhouses, but those exist in 7E too.

Not being able to assault out of most transports was an issue in 7th, changed for 8th
Not being able to assault out of deepstrike was an issue in 7th, changed for 8th
Having low initiative for a melee army (orks) was an issue in 7th, changed for 8th
Being unable to reach combat due to low move stats was an issue in 7th, changed for 8th

What were the two best CC armies in 7th? Space wolves (by far the best) and KDK. Why were they so good? they had incredible speed and could survive until combat.

Now the slower CC armies can stay relatively safe in transports until they have positioned, then disembark, let the transport charge in soaking the overwatch, then let the unit charge and chop much more effectively.

Or they can deepstrike without scatter (granted 9" away) but they need an 8" charge on 2D6, with command points allowing a re roll.

Or they will have tremendous move speeds, meaning less time running and more time chopping.


Ork and necron CC has been buffed due to the removal of initiative and sequencing of combats
Tyranid CC has been buffed due to increased M values, while they lost the higher than average I values, they have a higher M, so if the general is good they'll be charging more often, allowing more damage.
SM CC has been buffed due to the removal of I (powerfist squads anyone?) and being allowed to charge after deepstrike (terminators)
Harlequin and Ork CC has been buffed now that units wont explode when the transport does, only on a 1 and not the way it was in 7th.

I'm not saying that CC will be king this edition, but I think its shaping up to be a lot more balanced between the two, enabling a choice of army style without penalty to performance.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
1-st turn charges aren't that frightening. So, genestealers buffed with a swarmlord will wipe a squad they charge. And than? They're alone in the enemy deployment zone. Killed a rhino. Next turn they're out of synapse range and within rapid fire and flamer range of pretty much the whole enemy army.

Don't forget that plain forward rush only works with unkillable deathstars from recent editions. And for as much as we know, the age of unkillable deathstars is over. It can still be tactically useful to capitalize on the opponent's deployment mistake. Or to mulch through an ork horde before it can do anything. But than if you're fielding an ork horde and you see 20 genestealers and a swarmlord, why don't you place, say...a bunch of grots in front?

I agree there is ways around it, but specifically on the tyranid example, so the genestealers might be dead, but they might have taken out a critical unit from your army, and now your facing down the rest of the army that is bearing down on you and ready or incredibly close to being ready to charge (CC oriented troop choices having 8", deepstriking trygons(?) opening up a tunnel that lets more gaunts jump out).

Dont forget, that units that fall back cant shoot (for the most part, some T'au units can) so even getting 1/2 your army in combat T2 means around 1/2 their army not shooting next turn.

 koooaei wrote:
1-st turn charges aren't that frightening. So, genestealers buffed with a swarmlord will wipe a squad they charge. And than? They're alone in the enemy deployment zone. Killed a rhino. Next turn they're out of synapse range and within rapid fire and flamer range of pretty much the whole enemy army.

Stealers never had Instinctive Behavior, so they just act like every other unit in the game outside of Synapse range. They're not chuffed about being alone. And most Nid players have plenty of Flyrants, though we don't know how good they'll be anymore. They still have a Synapse bubble.

We seem to be forgetting the Trygon announcement saying that when it pops up, another unit comes with it in an 3" bubble around that massive base. That's easily 10+ models strong charging when they arrive. One unit of Stealers is the first punch, the Trygon's friends are the second, and the Trygon itself is third. If Nids have Hive Commander available on all Tyrants, as it is available currently, then Flyrants cross the table, get a Trygon to babysit and some more Genestealers to throw into the mix.

Or a bit less guaranteed, Lictors have always been the beast to lead others in. A Lictor hiding through whatever new rules for cover is available to lure in a unit of Deep Strikers, be it Gargoyles, Flyrants, Winged Warriors with Boneswords and Lashwhips because we know those are a good thing to carry, or Raveners with their own Rending Claws.

My point for the game at large though is that there should be ways for an army that can accomplish a Turn 1 charge to continue to apply pressure, either through Outflank or tricks. Anything that has that in their toolbox should have the other tools needed to keep that style of play going and just looking at the current codecies of Assault armies, the tools are always there. Blood Angels descending from the skies, Dark Angels teleporting in some Deathwing after a Ravening Turn 1 charge, Nid options I mentioned above, Dark Eldar and Eldar fast vehicles and stuff, Space Wolves having Acute Senses. No not every army needs these options, but fixing the pitiful options available should bump up the effect.

Too early to tell

BrianDavion wrote:
genestealers don't need synapse.

*didn't

We have no idea how things will function. Anywayz, it's not that hard to down a bunch of t4 wounds with mediocre armor saves up close. So, i'd save the genestealers for something more important rather than a rhino or two.

 koooaei wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
genestealers don't need synapse.

*didn't

We have no idea how things will function.

It's a safe bet they still won't, Genestealers not having synapse is a biiig part of the unit.

I think KDK is dead.

GW responded in Facebook to someones question with "you can certainly use the same miniatures to play in 8th edition" when the guy inquired about the fate of KDK.

I atleast interpret it as "the faction is dead, but the miniatures can be used to make another army" since they did not answer with a simple "Yes."

Forward defensive units will be a thing. Charge them genestealers into these spread out firewarriors. Then retaliate with stronger, better protected ranged units. If anything it shows you need to think about weaponry to also take down hordes. I hope assault armies will be a thing

Regarding initiative in 7th, that was not the issue with my orks, getting shot up bad on the way in was the issue, or facing tough units with 3+ saves and re-rolls.

In AoS there have been tests with units deploying very close to the enemy, to the point of snaking between enemy units, which IMO is a mess. I'm say anything is possible at this point as we have not seen the rules.

 Runic wrote:
I think KDK is dead.

GW responded in Facebook to someones question with "you can certainly use the same miniatures to play in 8th edition" when the guy inquired about the fate of KDK.

I atleast interpret it as "the faction is dead, but the miniatures can be used to make another army" since they did not answer with a simple "Yes."

KDK was always basicly a hybrid faction anyway, if they go with grand alliancesque stuff, and keywords, I imagine KDK will simply be an army made of chaos marines and chaos demons, with the Khrone keyword.

Seeing how Blades of Khorne was just released with heavy inspiration from KDK, it's odd to throw KDK away. It could go on vacation though.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Runic wrote:
I think KDK is dead.

GW responded in Facebook to someones question with "you can certainly use the same miniatures to play in 8th edition" when the guy inquired about the fate of KDK.

I atleast interpret it as "the faction is dead, but the miniatures can be used to make another army" since they did not answer with a simple "Yes."

KDK was always basicly a hybrid faction anyway, if they go with grand alliancesque stuff, and keywords, I imagine KDK will simply be an army made of chaos marines and chaos demons, with the Khrone keyword.

Waaargh wrote:Seeing how Blades of Khorne was just released with heavy inspiration from KDK, it's odd to throw KDK away. It could go on vacation though.

I think its gone because previously, the only way to mix and match Khorne Daemons and Khorne Marines was to ally them, which came with restrictions and their own drawbacks. KDK was there to give a fully-fleshed out Khorne army. Originally I thought this was a test-run for the later Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaaneshi versions, and although T-sons got a release, I now believe it was test-fitting how people feel about mix-matching units in 40k.

It's actually a little better than before as it means you can fully mix CSM and Daemon units. All the Khorne keyword units will get a benefit (for example, X character gives Khorne units +1A within 12" bubble" would effect Daemons and mortals alike, and then you can have Daemon-only buffs and still include your Daemonettes and Horrors without worrying about funky wording that prevents your Slaaneshi Daemon Prince benefitting from X special rule because you took it from the CSM codex or the Daemon codex.

Imperials did it for years without the Keyword, just by being entirely Battle Brothers and the increasingly lower restrictions on that. It does open some nasty combinations, or counters. For example, Deathwatch might get a Xenos hunter special rule that gives bonuses against all Xenos keyword units, but it also means that you can mix Drukhari (love that name vs Dark Eldar) and Aeldari with ease, or have a Nid/Ork/Imperial triple-threat match.

fresus wrote:
It looks to me like GW also buffed shooting quite a bit (lots of overwatch, twin-linked getting twice the number of shots, multiple damages on weapons).
I think the plan is to make everything more deadly, so you remove way more models and end up playing faster games.

I think you have hit the nail squarely on the head here. Add in extra casualties from Battleshock and you are going to need a dustpan and brush to remove units.

Also units are no longer trapped in CC so even if those Nids do make it the opponents quickly, there is still no guarantee they won't still be facing firepower.

We will have to see exactly how it all shakes out in gameplay terms. The thing that makes me cautiously optimistic is that there seems to be a lot less of the game "playing itself", Previously once CC started, both players just rolled dice until one side either died or fled. Now that units have the option to retreat from combat in good order, players have more choice. Choice is good because it means more tactics and more possibilities.

I dunno melee has gotten much worse since 4th edition at the very least. If 8th has a great return i might like to see it. In old WHFB it was much more tactical than just shooting an opponent off the board. Of course that game had a lot of crazy movement shenanigans. Shooting meant turtling and turtling didn't allow for tactics whereas assault was a constant maneuvering game.

In 40k it's more basic and i wouldn't mind seeing melee have a bigger focus as melee armies have been in a bad spot for a while.

BrianDavion wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
genestealers don't need synapse.

*didn't

We have no idea how things will function.

It's a safe bet they still won't, Genestealers not having synapse is a biiig part of the unit.

They have never been synapse. They just didn't have instinctive behavior. So, i'd expect them to not be fearless but have solid ld. Like 8.

As this is all speculation until there is a meta, I'm very hesitant to make any predictions, but transports seem more important due to abolishing AV, being able to assault out of vehicles, and the extra wounds taken from Morale checks. E.g., footslogging it with the DG looks like it may cause you a lot of additional wounds.

Without having played a game, I think 8th will make for bloodier games with a lot less survivors (if that was even possible for anyone bar Necrons in 7th).