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Made in lu
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought






https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/24/new-warhammer-40000-a-forge-world-datasheet-may24gw-homepage-post-4/

WEEE finally we get in on the leviathan train and omfg lol
That thing sounds insane Oo.
Another thing of note is the mark of chaos keyword and legion affiliation.
The rubric marines did NOT have the mark key word and before our vehicles didn't benefit of legion rules due to not having VotLW, it seems now they do.
I suppose it might take the form naming a god though. Rubrics simply have Tzeentch listed, which might well be an instance of a mark.
Could just as well be Mark of * though and we get rules affecting models with the mark of * and actual cult troops are treated differently?

What a glorious day to be a traitor
Although this being ForgeWorld, it doesn't necessarily mean we will get a new model.
Can't wait for conversions of these things either way, thgouh I might simply splurge for a decimator. Always liked the model, but the rules were a bit iffy.

*edit - Added Yarium's post to OP, includes the datasheet I forgot *
Spoiler:
 Yarium wrote:
This gives us some insight into what Grav might do! Here's what I think will stay and what will go based on the datasheet.



If you look at the weapon options, you'll see that the Hellforged Leviathan Dreadnaught brings the option for a Grav-flux bombard. First off, wow, this is a CHAOS unit, which means Chaos might be getting access to those grav weapons they "lost" from the Heresy. But, also importantly, is the note about the weapons power and abilities. Here's the breakdown and what you can expect to stay, and what you can expect to go;

18" range - (GO) - this is pretty short range, however, I don't expect this to stick around for all the grav weapons. We could be seeing a drop off in their range overall, but I doubt they'll all be this severe.

Heavy D3 - (GO) - this weapon has a variable number of shots, which means that it would previously have been a small blast. Since none of the regular grav weapons have blasts, I bet that this won't be the case with them either. Given how powerful the things I think will stay are going to be, I'm guessing a severe reduction in the number of shots is going to happen.

S9 - (GO) - While I think Grav Cannons might keep this strength, I don't think the Pistol or Gun are going to have this high a strength level. While Grav put the hurt to vehicles due to immobilization, you still needed a 6 to get you there, and this was seen as an intrinsically broken part of the weapon. Without the immobilization effect, Grav weapons weren't actually too good at taking down vehicles, but of course the Grav Cannon + Amp simply had enough shots to still be the best choice against Super Heavies. At S9, this is very good at wounding anything, and that shouldn't be the case with the smaller versions.

AP-5 - (STAY) - I think we're going to see every Grav weapon have this insanely high AP value. AP2 stuff is now -3, AP1 is now -4, so this is like AP0, which is quite an upgrade from before! Still, Grav was always about ignoring armour, so I guess this -5 is to make it impossible to get saves out of it. The weird thing about this is that, with cover now being an armour-save modifier, this now effectively "ignores cover" (unless you're a terminator standing in cover, and then your Inv save is still better). Still, in order to ignore armour, Grav needed a very high AP, and this does the trick, so I think we'll see that as the go-to AP for all grav weapons.

D2 - (STAY) - Unlike the lascannon's or Melta's variable damage, grav is going to likely have the solid 2 damage, which means it often underperforms the amount of wounds that a single hit from those weapons can do (especially in Melta's half-range case), but will do a reliable amount of damage. This also means that these weapons will melt Terminators and Primaris Marines in their armour, and be wasted wounds of little grubblies, but will be very potent against multi-wound models.

D2 becomes D5 against Vehicles, Monsters, and Titans - (STAY) - Wow. This is a powerful boost against these things. The crazy thing on this vehicle is that its own weapon, if it rolled a 3 for the number of shots, would potentially do enough wounds to kill itself in a single turn (and failing your three 5+ Inv saves in that case isn't terrible unlikely, as you will fail all three about a third of the time). Still, Grav is the domain of the monster-killer, and I'm guessing these weapons are going to do just that.

+D3 shots per 5 models in target unit - (GO) - I'm not 100% sure on this. We haven't seen this rule mentioned on any other blasts yet, which suggests that it's part of the Grav rather than part of the blast, but that's not for sure either (range, AP, and shots suggest that it might be more like a Torrent Grav weapon). Still, I think this is specific to the bombard, rather than any Grav weapon, so I don't think we'll be seeing Grav get more shots at bigger units like this does.



Conclusion: I think Grav's going to stay a big part of the game, and will be a limiting factor in how many vehicles/monsters you're going to see on the table. While it'll still be very good at killing anything, the number of shots these things are probably going to go down, making them much less effective at dealing with hordes of models, even ones in Terminator armour. Since many other rules in the game help out infantry, this should put grav in the right spot of being the right weapon for the right job, and not "spam 'em till you bleed" levels of OP.


This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/05/24 15:41:52


 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Canada

All of the awesome rules (and he looks awesome on paper) aside, the real story is the key words at the bottom.

<Mark of Chaos> so optional mark and ... ... <LEGION> so they basically confirmed Chaos Space Marines will have Legion rules in 40K again

 
   
Made in us
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord




Inside Yvraine

Strength 16 close-combat weapons.

It's happening lads. It's happening.
   
Made in lu
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought






I wonder if you can give this thing disgustingly resilient. That would make it nigh impossible to take down XD. 14 wounds on T8 while also healing itself and coming with invulnerable saves stock, that only get better in melee.
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

Jesus this thing got...well, a humongous boost.

Feeling more and more like the Russ got a raw deal the more vehicles we see. This thing was AV13 HP4, Russ was AV14 HP3, now this thing and the Russ are both T8, but the leviathan gets W14 and a 2+ save, the Russ is W12 with a 3+ save, meaning against something like a Lascannon the Leviathan is about 50% more resilient than the Russ, where they were roughly equal with a slight advantage to the Russ before (not counting Invuls).


Russ tanks better be dirt fething cheap at this point

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/24 15:40:28


IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





This gives us some insight into what Grav might do! Here's what I think will stay and what will go based on the datasheet.



If you look at the weapon options, you'll see that the Hellforged Leviathan Dreadnaught brings the option for a Grav-flux bombard. First off, wow, this is a CHAOS unit, which means Chaos might be getting access to those grav weapons they "lost" from the Heresy. But, also importantly, is the note about the weapons power and abilities. Here's the breakdown and what you can expect to stay, and what you can expect to go;

18" range - (GO) - this is pretty short range, however, I don't expect this to stick around for all the grav weapons. We could be seeing a drop off in their range overall, but I doubt they'll all be this severe.

Heavy D3 - (GO) - this weapon has a variable number of shots, which means that it would previously have been a small blast. Since none of the regular grav weapons have blasts, I bet that this won't be the case with them either. Given how powerful the things I think will stay are going to be, I'm guessing a severe reduction in the number of shots is going to happen.

S9 - (GO) - While I think Grav Cannons might keep this strength, I don't think the Pistol or Gun are going to have this high a strength level. While Grav put the hurt to vehicles due to immobilization, you still needed a 6 to get you there, and this was seen as an intrinsically broken part of the weapon. Without the immobilization effect, Grav weapons weren't actually too good at taking down vehicles, but of course the Grav Cannon + Amp simply had enough shots to still be the best choice against Super Heavies. At S9, this is very good at wounding anything, and that shouldn't be the case with the smaller versions.

AP-5 - (STAY) - I think we're going to see every Grav weapon have this insanely high AP value. AP2 stuff is now -3, AP1 is now -4, so this is like AP0, which is quite an upgrade from before! Still, Grav was always about ignoring armour, so I guess this -5 is to make it impossible to get saves out of it. The weird thing about this is that, with cover now being an armour-save modifier, this now effectively "ignores cover" (unless you're a terminator standing in cover, and then your Inv save is still better). Still, in order to ignore armour, Grav needed a very high AP, and this does the trick, so I think we'll see that as the go-to AP for all grav weapons.

D2 - (STAY) - Unlike the lascannon's or Melta's variable damage, grav is going to likely have the solid 2 damage, which means it often underperforms the amount of wounds that a single hit from those weapons can do (especially in Melta's half-range case), but will do a reliable amount of damage. This also means that these weapons will melt Terminators and Primaris Marines in their armour, and be wasted wounds of little grubblies, but will be very potent against multi-wound models.

D2 becomes D5 against Vehicles, Monsters, and Titans - (STAY) - Wow. This is a powerful boost against these things. The crazy thing on this vehicle is that its own weapon, if it rolled a 3 for the number of shots, would potentially do enough wounds to kill itself in a single turn (and failing your three 5+ Inv saves in that case isn't terrible unlikely, as you will fail all three about a third of the time). Still, Grav is the domain of the monster-killer, and I'm guessing these weapons are going to do just that.

+D3 shots per 5 models in target unit - (GO) - I'm not 100% sure on this. We haven't seen this rule mentioned on any other blasts yet, which suggests that it's part of the Grav rather than part of the blast, but that's not for sure either (range, AP, and shots suggest that it might be more like a Torrent Grav weapon). Still, I think this is specific to the bombard, rather than any Grav weapon, so I don't think we'll be seeing Grav get more shots at bigger units like this does.



Conclusion: I think Grav's going to stay a big part of the game, and will be a limiting factor in how many vehicles/monsters you're going to see on the table. While it'll still be very good at killing anything, the number of shots these things are probably going to go down, making them much less effective at dealing with hordes of models, even ones in Terminator armour. Since many other rules in the game help out infantry, this should put grav in the right spot of being the right weapon for the right job, and not "spam 'em till you bleed" levels of OP.

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

One thing I am not happy about is that this kind of shows the issue with power levels that all the anti-narrative pro-matched only people were harping on: The claw is worse in every way to the drill, and with narrative not requiring you to pay for individual upgrades, there is literally zero reason to ever not take the drill since it's "free", since the claw is flat-out worse.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/24 15:42:21


- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






The most important reason, on the other hand - because that's what you put on the model because it looks good.
   
Made in us
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord




Inside Yvraine

Wayniac wrote:
One thing I am not happy about is that this kind of shows the issue with power levels that all the anti-narrative pro-matched only people were harping on: The claw is worse in every way to the drill, and with narrative not requiring you to pay for individual upgrades, there is literally zero reason to ever not take the drill since it's "free", since the claw is flat-out worse.
If you're playing narrative then you're likely going to bring what you think looks cool or sounds cool, not what increases your chances of winning the game.
   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle






Oh ho hoooo man, Grav weapons are going to be GREAT!

 
   
Made in lu
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought






If that bombard is indicative of other grav weapons, they still seem very good, but at least all other weapons also got a buff in the sense of being useful vs everything so they're not quite as stupidly good as they were before in comparison.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/24 15:50:51


 
   
Made in us
Second Story Man





Astonished of Heck

Some of the Bombard may be part of how they are converting Barrage, too, considering what a bombard normally is.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in gb
Fully-charged Electropriest



UK

30k and 40k grav have always been different so it could be nothing like normal grav turns out to be.

 
   
Made in lu
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought






I wonder how hades autocannons compare to butcher cannons in 8th. The butcher cannons seem to be an excellent choice versus infantry. Morale seems to have dropped across the board and with battle shocks this is going to tear chunks out of infantry units.
They filled the same role in the lore and on the table top, so I wonder how they will make them perform differently. The hades shoots phosphorous ammo so I'm guessing the hades versions will have less shots but better Ap and/or damage.
   
Made in us
Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker





Pittsburgh, PA

Loopstah wrote:
30k and 40k grav have always been different so it could be nothing like normal grav turns out to be.


These are 40k rules, not 30k. There are no marks in 30k (yet), and the name implies that it's not a 30k era datasheet
   
Made in lu
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought






Oh, another interesting thing is Dark fury. I'm guessing gaining extra attacks for multiple CCWs is definitely out now, unless you have a specific rule that allows it.
   
Made in ie
Norn Queen






Dublin, Ireland

That things stats look like a total wrecking machine.
They were pretty expensive though in 7th no? Heres hoping they cant be spammed in 8th or welcome to the power creep even before release date

Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be

By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.

"Feelin' goods, good enough". 
   
Made in lu
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought






 Bi'ios wrote:
Loopstah wrote:
30k and 40k grav have always been different so it could be nothing like normal grav turns out to be.


These are 40k rules, not 30k. There are no marks in 30k (yet), and the name implies that it's not a 30k era datasheet

This is 40k, presumably from the new IA book. ForgeWorld seems to be digging out the heresy tech for CSM, so looking at how tech in 40k and 30k differs is a valid approach.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ratius wrote:
That things stats look like a total wrecking machine.
They were pretty expensive though in 7th no? Heres hoping they cant be spammed in 8th or welcome to the power creep even before release date


They weren't available for chaos at all in 7th. Only marines had them. They were 300ish points before. The rules are online actually:https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/PDF/Datasheets/LeviathanSiegeDreadnoughtRules.pdf

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/24 16:13:44


 
   
Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick





The thing to stands out the most to me is that grav-flux bombard.

D3 per five models with no ceiling is some pretty steep scaling, against a 50-model blob that's 11d3 (1d3 base plus 10d3 for 50 models). Hitting on 2+, that's a lot of murder.

And then on top of that a flat 5 damage against anything with a "big stuff" keyword? There's quite a few things that can one-shot, especially if it rolls more than one hit.

And as written, you can double up on those. 22d3 shots against blobs, 2d3 5-damage shots against big stuff, all hitting on 2+. That's one heck of an anti-everything cannon, it makes the meltagun and claw it can replace look like toys.
Even the butcher cannon with its penalty to morale and the soulburner with its mortal wounds seem to be a whole tier below it.

That thing better cost the Emperor's left toe to equip. Its only redeeming feature (from the perspective of someone going up against it) is that it's 18" range and Heavy, so most things will at least get one chance to shoot it before it can murder them and it'll be at -1 to hit if it tries to do so on the move. It's definitely something you better hope you can deny any chance of firing.
   
Made in se
Glorious Lord of Chaos






The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer

'Any turn'

Does this mean you can heal with with malifica every turn?

Normally you'd just expect them to write that it automatically uses malifica every turn if so, but the fact that using malifica disables other sources of healing makes the choice meaningful.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/24 16:22:42


I should think of a new signature... In the meantime, have a  
   
Made in cn
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian




Nobody going to mention that the Soulburner is pretty much 3 or 4 autokills against most things a turn?
Or that the butcher cannon is going to kill roughly 3 meq a turn, then even more on the break test on average due to its rule?
This thing is absolutely LETHAL!
Also, since 2 close combat weapons don't add further attacks anymore, why would you ever just leave it with both claws/drills? Or why would you upgrade both to drills if you only need one for it to make a difference and if it will cost extra points to upgrade the second? This has me a tad confused.
Lastly, it looks like the Dreads extra 2 attacks from last year's FAQ hasn't carried over.

Edit: Somehow missed 'Dark Fury'.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/24 16:28:01


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Northridge, CA

 Ashiraya wrote:
'Any turn'

Does this mean you can heal with with malifica every turn?
Seeing as you can fight in melee in "any turn", I don't see why not.
   
Made in lu
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought






 ross-128 wrote:
Spoiler:
The thing to stands out the most to me is that grav-flux bombard.

D3 per five models with no ceiling is some pretty steep scaling, against a 50-model blob that's 11d3 (1d3 base plus 10d3 for 50 models). Hitting on 2+, that's a lot of murder.

And then on top of that a flat 5 damage against anything with a "big stuff" keyword? There's quite a few things that can one-shot, especially if it rolls more than one hit.

And as written, you can double up on those. 22d3 shots against blobs, 2d3 5-damage shots against big stuff, all hitting on 2+. That's one heck of an anti-everything cannon, it makes the meltagun and claw it can replace look like toys.
Even the butcher cannon with its penalty to morale and the soulburner with its mortal wounds seem to be a whole tier below it.

That thing better cost the Emperor's left toe to equip. Its only redeeming feature (from the perspective of someone going up against it) is that it's 18" range and Heavy, so most things will at least get one chance to shoot it before it can murder them and it'll be at -1 to hit if it tries to do so on the move. It's definitely something you better hope you can deny any chance of firing.


Holy smokes, I just realized you get an additional d3 per 5. I initially read it as a singular additional d3 Oo
   
Made in ie
Norn Queen






Dublin, Ireland

Where do you get double bombards from though? It says it may replace one melta/claw with one of the following. Not both meltas/claws.

Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be

By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.

"Feelin' goods, good enough". 
   
Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick





 Ratius wrote:
Where do you get double bombards from though? It says it may replace one melta/claw with one of the following. Not both meltas/claws.

Ah, I missed the "claw and melta cannot take the same upgrade" part. That's a small relief at least, so it can't double up on anything.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/24 16:29:39


 
   
Made in cn
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian




You reckon they playtested this thing?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Northridge, CA

 Ratius wrote:
Where do you get double bombards from though? It says it may replace one melta/claw with one of the following. Not both meltas/claws.
Good catch. You can only have one MASTER BLASTER, not two. Keeps the thing somewhat in line but still a very powerful centerpiece to any army.

Me? I'ma hit it with me axe.
   
Made in lu
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought






 Ashiraya wrote:
'Any turn'

Does this mean you can heal with with malifica every turn?

Normally you'd just expect them to write that it automatically uses malifica every turn if so, but the fact that using malifica disables other sources of healing makes the choice meaningful.


The rules leak appretnly makes a difference between turns and player turns. Player turns being battle rounds and turns being, well, turns.
So not according to what I've heard, but that does't make any sense with the way malifica is worded imo.
Not impossible but that would make it a bit of an awkward mechanic if you ask me.
   
Made in ca
Bounding Assault Marine






Is that Chaos only?? I want for my spas marines
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Northridge, CA

 benlac wrote:
Is that Chaos only?? I want for my spas marines
It used to be loyalist only, now it is most likely both.
   
 
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