Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Inceptor vs Rubric Marines

Movement: 10" vs 5"

Effective range: 28" vs 29"

Shots at 12"/18"/24": 18/18/0 vs 9/4/4

Wounds: 6 vs 5

Mortal wounds per game: 3 vs 4

Wounds lost per 20 regular bolter shots: 1.47 vs 1.09

Wounds lost per 20 regular bolter shots in cover: .71 vs 1.09

Fire power lost at 2/4/6 rounds: 33%/100%/100% vs 44%/88%/100%

Fire power lost at 2/4/6 rounds in cover: 0%/33%/66% vs 44%/88%/100%

Deployment options: anywhere 9" away from enemies vs regular deployment.

MEQ killed in single round of shooting 12"/18"/24": 3.92/3.92/0 vs 1.96/0.87/0.87

Melee wounds per turn vs MEQ: .76 vs 1.29

Melee wounds taken vs 10 MEQ: .718 vs 1.09 (.545?)

Power level: 8 vs 8

Strait up fight: Rubrics lose after 2 rounds of fighting doing 1-2 wounds. Even if they don't deep strike.

So basically if you can manage to find cover Inceptors are somewhere between 1.5 and 1.75 times better then Rubrics, but are the same power level...right.

Edit:

Plz do not try to add "context" anything you add to one side you would have to add to the other to equal it out. Making it a fruitless effort.

Keep in mind that adding more Rubricae would not decrease the problem it would increse the problem. Inceptors have a clear advantage add more units multiplies the gap it does NOT shrink it.

(Chaos) God(s) forbid anyone stand in the way of GW's shiny new toys...

Are you comparing two fully kitted-out squads? Because that's what power level assumes.

 Formerly Wu wrote:
Are you comparing two fully kitted-out squads? Because that's what power level assumes.

Unless you want the rubrics using warpflamers which.... won't really help....

Previously I assumed the psychic power would even things out. However, seeing a peril happens 1/18 times and, if it occurs, will wipe out at minimum half the rubircs squad, including psyker.... that's not really something you want to spam.

Weirdly, the rubrics are much better in melee, with the pistols and single force weapon. But the primaris can likely disengage easily due to fly, assuming it's similar to the tau rule.

SilverAlien wrote:

Unless you want the rubrics using warpflamers which.... won't really help....

It's not clear if the calculations in the OP include a soulreaper cannon, and we don't know what effect an Icon of Flame has.

 Formerly Wu wrote:
Are you comparing two fully kitted-out squads? Because that's what power level assumes.

I am comparing both data sheets all you could do is add warp flamers to the Rubrics. Simple fact is the interceptors have about a 25% chance of wipong the Rubrics out in 1 turn.

Yeah, that's how you compare things...
In a big giant vacuum.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

I am comparing both data sheets all you could do is add warp flamers to the Rubrics. Simple fact is the interceptors have about a 25% chance of wipong the Rubrics out in 1 turn.

Derp, missed the fact that soulreaper cannons are only for units of 10. And again, we don't know the effect of the Icon.

 Formerly Wu wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

Unless you want the rubrics using warpflamers which.... won't really help....

It's not clear if the calculations in the OP include a soulreaper cannon, and we don't know what effect an Icon of Flame has.

A squad of 5 rubrics do not get a soulreaper cannon, a squad of 10 do, but then that's 14 power, not equivalent to the 8 an interceptor squad costs. We could compare the 14 power rubrics to two squads of 8 power, but that's 16. And if the 14 vs 16 is somehow much better than 8v8, that really again just shows power isn't even a rough measure and most players could eyeball it better than using power.

Though, worth mentioning.... unless you want the rubrics to charge the interceptors... 14 power rubrics are a better match to 16 points of interceptors than 8 power rubrics vs 8 power interceptors.

So yeah, narrative looks like it'll be unbalanced enough to be dead on arrival.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Inceptor vs Rubric Marines

Movement: 10" vs 5"

Effective range: 28" vs 29"

Shots at 12"/18"/24": 18/18/0 vs 9/4/4

Wounds: 6 vs 5

Mortal wounds per game: 3 vs 4

Wounds lost per 20 bolter shots: 1.47 vs 1.09

Wounds lost per 20 bolter shots in cover: .71 vs 1.09

Fire power lost at 2/4/6 rounds: 33%/100%/100% vs 44%/88%/100%

Fire power lost at 2/4/6 rounds in cover: 0%/33%/66% vs 44%/88%/100%

Deployment options: anywhere 9" away from enemies vs regular deployment.

MEQ killed in single round of shooting 12"/18"/24": 3.92/3.92/0 vs 1.96/0.87/0.87

Melee wounds per turn vs MEQ: .76 vs 1.29

Melee wounds taken vs 10 MEQ: .718 vs 1.09 (.545?)

Power level: 8 vs 8

Strait up fight: Rubrics lose after 2 rounds of fighting doing 1-2 wounds. Even if they don't deep strike.

So basically if you can manage to find cover Inceptors are somewhere between 1.5 and 1.75 times better then Rubrics, but are the same power level...right.

are you accounting for rubrics having 2+ armor saves vs those assault bolters?

 McGibs wrote:
Yeah, that's how you compare things...
In a big giant vacuum.

Should we list out the fact the interceptors are more flexible, have better mobility, can deploy where needed, and are generally going to have a much easier time being where they need to be and doing their job?

In a vacuum favors rubrics. How sad is that.

 McGibs wrote:
Yeah, that's how you compare things...
In a big giant vacuum.

What would you like to add? Cover makes things much worse for the Rubrics. Any sort of support you give the Rubrics Marines are going to have something similar available. So comparing them in a vaccum makes no difference.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Inceptor vs Rubric Marines

Movement: 10" vs 5"

Effective range: 28" vs 29"

Shots at 12"/18"/24": 18/18/0 vs 9/4/4

Wounds: 6 vs 5

Mortal wounds per game: 3 vs 4

Wounds lost per 20 bolter shots: 1.47 vs 1.09

Wounds lost per 20 bolter shots in cover: .71 vs 1.09

Fire power lost at 2/4/6 rounds: 33%/100%/100% vs 44%/88%/100%

Fire power lost at 2/4/6 rounds in cover: 0%/33%/66% vs 44%/88%/100%

Deployment options: anywhere 9" away from enemies vs regular deployment.

MEQ killed in single round of shooting 12"/18"/24": 3.92/3.92/0 vs 1.96/0.87/0.87

Melee wounds per turn vs MEQ: .76 vs 1.29

Melee wounds taken vs 10 MEQ: .718 vs 1.09 (.545?)

Power level: 8 vs 8

Strait up fight: Rubrics lose after 2 rounds of fighting doing 1-2 wounds. Even if they don't deep strike.

So basically if you can manage to find cover Inceptors are somewhere between 1.5 and 1.75 times better then Rubrics, but are the same power level...right.

are you accounting for rubrics having 2+ armor saves vs those assault bolters?

Assualt Bolters are AP -1 they get 3 + save

Assualt Bolters are AP -1 they get 3 + save

Given that you have

Wounds lost per 20 bolter shots: 1.47 vs 1.09

Wounds lost per 20 bolter shots in cover: .71 vs 1.09

You didn't calculate that they'd get +1 armor save back due to cover.

Like, are they just all alone fighting each other on an empty table? Who's going first? The Rubriks are troops for TSons, so are there 4 more squads backing them up in a gunline? Are they in a Rhino like they should be? What about how they synergize with other tson characters?
Comparing units like this has so little value when there's so many other factors going on in any given game.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 McGibs wrote:
Yeah, that's how you compare things...
In a big giant vacuum.

What would you like to add? Cover makes things much worse for the Rubrics. Any sort of support you give the Rubrics Marines are going to have something similar available. So comparing them in a vaccum makes no difference.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Inceptor vs Rubric Marines

Movement: 10" vs 5"

Effective range: 28" vs 29"

Shots at 12"/18"/24": 18/18/0 vs 9/4/4

Wounds: 6 vs 5

Mortal wounds per game: 3 vs 4

Wounds lost per 20 bolter shots: 1.47 vs 1.09

Wounds lost per 20 bolter shots in cover: .71 vs 1.09

Fire power lost at 2/4/6 rounds: 33%/100%/100% vs 44%/88%/100%

Fire power lost at 2/4/6 rounds in cover: 0%/33%/66% vs 44%/88%/100%

Deployment options: anywhere 9" away from enemies vs regular deployment.

MEQ killed in single round of shooting 12"/18"/24": 3.92/3.92/0 vs 1.96/0.87/0.87

Melee wounds per turn vs MEQ: .76 vs 1.29

Melee wounds taken vs 10 MEQ: .718 vs 1.09 (.545?)

Power level: 8 vs 8

Strait up fight: Rubrics lose after 2 rounds of fighting doing 1-2 wounds. Even if they don't deep strike.

So basically if you can manage to find cover Inceptors are somewhere between 1.5 and 1.75 times better then Rubrics, but are the same power level...right.

are you accounting for rubrics having 2+ armor saves vs those assault bolters?

Assualt Bolters are AP -1 they get 3 + save

ok, next question, did you factor in the icon of flame, if so you have info I don't please share. did you factor in Death to the false emperor? (which Naftkia reports as being an additional attack whenever you roll a 6 in melee)

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Assualt Bolters are AP -1 they get 3 + save

Given that you have

Wounds lost per 20 bolter shots: 1.47 vs 1.09

Wounds lost per 20 bolter shots in cover: .71 vs 1.09

You didn't calculate that they'd get +1 armor save back due to cover.

Those are supposed to be regular bolters not assualt bolters edited for clarification.

If I am reading it right, power level is not 100% equivalent kind of thing, more just in general.

 McGibs wrote:
Like, are they just all alone fighting each other on an empty table? Who's going first? The Rubriks are troops for TSons, so are there 4 more squads backing them up in a gunline? Are they in a Rhino like they should be? What about how they synergize with other tson characters?
Comparing units like this has so little value when there's so many other factors going on in any given game.

In order:

Factors like going first can benefit either, has nothing to do with the units. The fact they won't fight in a vacuum is again, irrelevant, what we are seeing is if the rubrics can hold their own, or if they are over costed. If the rubric has a gunline, the interceptors have additional squads (and given they have the mobility to dictate when combat starts, this doesn't help rubrics at all, as an entire unit may get shot down before doing anything).

The rhino is not an upgrade, and costs additional power. So unless the rhino is unbalanced power wise, irrelevant.

Similarly, unless the tsons have much better synergy than the primaris marines, and we have no reason to think this is the case, the character question is irrelevant.

Everything you said wasn't considered for extremely obvious reasons, except that you pointed out rubrics can be taken as troops. That will give a small advantage in CP to a tsons army. But that's really it. And it still means rubrics aren't particularly useful outside a tsons army.

Those are supposed to be regular bolters not assualt bolters edited for clarification.

Ah whoops my bad then!

Though given the Warpflame I wonder if the intention is that the power is meant for what they are able to beat better rather then something that counters them.

 McGibs wrote:
Like, are they just all alone fighting each other on an empty table? Who's going first? The Rubriks are troops for TSons, so are there 4 more squads backing them up in a gunline? Are they in a Rhino like they should be? What about how they synergize with other tson characters?
Comparing units like this has so little value when there's so many other factors going on in any given game.

Any context you add to one side you can add to another. Context is irrlevent here.

 thekingofkings wrote:
If I am reading it right, power level is not 100% equivalent kind of thing, more just in general.

At 14 power, a 10 strong squad of rubrics is much better of against 2 units of 8 power interceptors (for 16 power total) than a 5 man 8 power rubric squad is against 8 power worth of interceptors.

It isn't that they aren't 100% on the mark, it is that they aren't even vaguely close to lining up correctly.

To be fair, the problem is kinda obvious if you look. The Aspiring Sorcerer has a force weapon, which is driving the power up, despite the rubrics both not being particularly good in close combat as well as the rubrics not being able to easily get into combat due to a low move speed. The sorcerer also has a psychic power which drives the price up... but using it gives you a 1/18 chance of destroying most of your unit. And you aren't even likely to hurt other units, again given rubrics slow plodding nature.

These problems will likely carry over into points as well.

SilverAlien wrote:

 thekingofkings wrote:
If I am reading it right, power level is not 100% equivalent kind of thing, more just in general.

At 14 power, a 10 strong squad of rubrics is much better of against 2 units of 8 power interceptors (for 16 power total) than a 5 man 8 power rubric squad is against 8 power worth of interceptors.

It isn't that they aren't 100% on the mark, it is that they aren't even vaguely close to lining up correctly.

To be fair, the problem is kinda obvious if you look. The Aspiring Sorcerer has a force weapon, which is driving the power up, despite the rubrics both not being particularly good in close combat as well as the rubrics not being able to easily get into combat due to a low move speed. The sorcerer also has a psychic power which drives the price up... but using it gives you a 1/18 chance of destroying most of your unit. And you aren't even likely to hurt other units, again given rubrics slow plodding nature.

These problems will likely carry over into points as well.

Yes the disparity is alarming but its unique so far. Comparing Tac Marines to Rubrics you get a 9 vs 8 in favor of tac Marines which would end up winning just barely which with 1 power point difference you would expect. But tac marines aginst inceptors pssssshhh dont even waste your times you would lose the entire squad in a single round due to morale.

Well if you play with points Inceptors will allegedly be 53pts/model: 39 for the base model and 14 for the two mini-HBs they come with.

So a squad of three of them will weigh in at 159 points.

 ross-128 wrote:
Well if you play with points Inceptors will allegedly be 53pts/model: 39 for the base model and 14 for the two mini-HBs they come with.

So a squad of three of them will weigh in at 159 points.

Where are you getting the point values from?

Oh wow the value system for casual games that doesn't even bother to account for the difference in weapon loadouts doesn't give you an exact and equal representation of a unit's power?

What a surprise....

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

 thekingofkings wrote:
If I am reading it right, power level is not 100% equivalent kind of thing, more just in general.

At 14 power, a 10 strong squad of rubrics is much better of against 2 units of 8 power interceptors (for 16 power total) than a 5 man 8 power rubric squad is against 8 power worth of interceptors.

It isn't that they aren't 100% on the mark, it is that they aren't even vaguely close to lining up correctly.

To be fair, the problem is kinda obvious if you look. The Aspiring Sorcerer has a force weapon, which is driving the power up, despite the rubrics both not being particularly good in close combat as well as the rubrics not being able to easily get into combat due to a low move speed. The sorcerer also has a psychic power which drives the price up... but using it gives you a 1/18 chance of destroying most of your unit. And you aren't even likely to hurt other units, again given rubrics slow plodding nature.

These problems will likely carry over into points as well.

Yes the disparity is alarming but its unique so far. Comparing Tac Marines to Rubrics you get a 9 vs 8 in favor of tac Marines which would end up winning just barely which with 1 power point difference you would expect. But tac marines aginst inceptors pssssshhh dont even waste your times you would lose the entire squad in a single round due to morale.

But, shouldn't this be exactly opposite? Shouldn't the warp-power infused demonically enhanced Rubrics best a standard 10,000 year old geneseed vanilla tacmarine squad?
Given the (old) cost, and the notion of them being empty suits of unfeeling death, shouldn't the rubrics be something like mini terminators?

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
Well if you play with points Inceptors will allegedly be 53pts/model: 39 for the base model and 14 for the two mini-HBs they come with.

So a squad of three of them will weigh in at 159 points.

Where are you getting the point values from?

it's been leaked.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
Well if you play with points Inceptors will allegedly be 53pts/model: 39 for the base model and 14 for the two mini-HBs they come with.

So a squad of three of them will weigh in at 159 points.

Where are you getting the point values from?

Rules leak in a different thread.

The issue isn't that PL ain't perfect-it's that it's so drastically bad.

Well even if thats the case all that means is that Rubric marines will probably be 150 to 160 as well.