Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup

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**FunJohn**

Hello fellow guard players, I just wanted to start a thread to collect everything we know about the Guard in 8th so far.

So far we've only seen the faction focus, which really didn't reveal much besides an, to some, underwhelming battlecannon and the fact that orders are now automatically.
As SoB has been leaked somebody has the Imperium II book which contains guard, so maybe it's only a matter of time.

So if you know anything please post it here and we can collect everything.

Index leak

Spoiler:

From 4Chan

Spoiler:

**Trickstick**

Well there are a couple of things floating about. A few from http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2017/05/misc-army-rules-for-new-edition-of.html

Demolisher Cannon: 24" Heavy d3 (d6 against 5 or more models) S10 Ap-3 d6 damage.

Commissars: Gives his LD to each AM unit within 6". Those units also can't lose more than 1 model from a failed battleshock test.

IG/Astra Militarum has regiment keyword and Orders are given automatically to same regiment kw unit within 6".

**FunJohn**

Finally some stuff, not much, updated top
I think i'd rather tanke a battlecannon then ever taking a vanquisher

**SeraphimXIX**

>vanquisher is heavy 1 72" s8 ap-3 d6, roll 2 dice for damage and discard the lower

I refuse to believe the vanquisher could be this awful. How does re-rolling the d6 damage make up for being single shot on a BS3 model?

It is literally just a battlecannon with less shots and a re-roll. People were already speculating that the battlecannon Russ was going to be the budget variant to make up for its underperforming main weapon, so where does that place this thing?

Hope these rumors are false.

**ross-128**

SeraphimXIX wrote:
>vanquisher is heavy 1 72" s8 ap-3 d6, roll 2 dice for damage and discard the lower

I refuse to believe the vanquisher could be this awful. How does re-rolling the d6 damage make up for being single shot on a BS3 model?

It is literally just a battlecannon with less shots and a re-roll.

Didn't the battle cannon only do d3 damage?

**paladinknight62**

SeraphimXIX wrote:
>vanquisher is heavy 1 72" s8 ap-3 d6, roll 2 dice for damage and discard the lower

I refuse to believe the vanquisher could be this awful. How does re-rolling the d6 damage make up for being single shot on a BS3 model?

It is literally just a battlecannon with less shots and a re-roll. People were already speculating that the battlecannon Russ was going to be the budget variant to make up for its underperforming main weapon, so where does that place this thing?

Hope these rumors are false.

man that is super bad, I was expecting at least AP-4 as well. I've been really disappointed with the Leman Russ weapons so far :( I hope they are dirt cheap

**Shadelkan**

SeraphimXIX wrote:
>vanquisher is heavy 1 72" s8 ap-3 d6, roll 2 dice for damage and discard the lower

I refuse to believe the vanquisher could be this awful. How does re-rolling the d6 damage make up for being single shot on a BS3 model?

It is literally just a battlecannon with less shots and a re-roll. People were already speculating that the battlecannon Russ was going to be the budget variant to make up for its underperforming main weapon, so where does that place this thing?

Hope these rumors are false.

While I do agree, I'm 99% certain orders will apply to vehicles.

**SeraphimXIX**

Oooooh, I checked the profile and you're right. Also the battlecannon is pen 2 vs the vanquisher's pen 3!

edit- It doesn't change its performance much though. :(

It's statistically worse against both T7 4+sv targets and T8 3+sv targets then the battlecannon. I decided to see what its average would look like with +1 BS as well and it doesn't improve much.

**Trickstick**

Vanquisher cannon is pretty much just a mutlimelta. I can get on board with all these Russ changes if they are cheap and you can make a decent sized tank company, but I get the feeling they are going to be expensive, decent durability but meh guns.

Maybe if we take it as an entire package of turret + 3 guns it will be worth the points. However, not only do we need to know the points but we need to know all the other points in the game to see how they measure up.

**ross-128**

It does seem like missile launchers are going to vastly outclass the Vanquisher cannon simply because the launcher itself is way cheaper, and it can be fielded on a much cheaper platform. So you can actually put enough of them on the table to be threatening.

**FunJohn**

So far every vehicle has gone up in points, i think the Russes will either stay their 7th points (technically gone down) or increase in price. If the latter is the case it's rather fethed. The battlecannon isen't great and neither is the vanquisher.
Veterans have gone down 1 point like space marines.

Man i hope bullgryns and ogryns have gone way down in points, cos their stats haven't changed since 7th.

I wonder if we can still shoot out of the chimera. Open topped now allow for models to shoot so maybe you can't shoot out of closed transports anymore.

**Vaktathi**

From what we have seen thus far, their durability wont even be that good, they'll have 1pt of T and 1 extra wound over a Predator, they dont appear to be functionally any more resilient than they are now, which isnt great.

12 wounds and a 3+ looks great on paper, but when weapons like Lascannons are doing D6 wounds and stripping most of that armor away and they're going from AV14 (effectively T10 that's immune to anything below S8) to T8 and vulnerable to even S1, they arent any better off than being AV14 HP3.

**jaxor1983**

The annihilator variant would be simply better than the vanquisher variant at all times, especially with orders. This vanquisher with these rules would need to be the cheapest one to warrant its existence.

Also, what's the deal with the exorcist becoming better both offensively and defensively than a leman russ battle tank?

**Trickstick**

jaxor1983 wrote:
The annihilator variant would be simply better than the vanquisher variant at all times, especially with orders. This vanquisher with these rules would need to be the cheapest one to warrant its existence.

Which is really weird, as the annihilator is supposed to be a cheap alternative to the super-powerful-rare-can't-be-made-anymore vanquisher.

**paladinknight62**

it seemed like it was implied that the punisher cannon won't have as many shots as before, because of a post on fb someone made about having twin-linked punisher cannons and the response was "if it still has that many shots"

we have yet to see anything about the exterminator autocannon or the executioner plasma cannon

but it looks like the meditocore battle cannon or executioner autocannon might be what I should run my leman russes as, if the Executioner is still really prone to killing itself.

We still have hope in the form of the Forgeworld version of the vanquisher cannon with the co-axle for increased accuracy, also maybe Beast-Hunter shells will still be a thing!

**ross-128**

What's funny is the exterminator autocannon might become one of the best Russ guns, if its Heavy 4 Twin Linked turns into Heavy 8.
72" Heavy 8 S7 AP-1 D3 is not too shabby, especially for what is currently the cheapest Russ gun...

**jaxor1983**

We still have hope in the form of the Forgeworld version of the vanquisher cannon with the co-axle for increased accuracy, also maybe Beast-Hunter shells will still be a thing!

I've got two of those Ryza Pattern Vanquisher turrets, I really hope beast hunter shells still exist in the form of mortal wounds or something.

**FunJohn**

jaxor1983 wrote:
We still have hope in the form of the Forgeworld version of the vanquisher cannon with the co-axle for increased accuracy, also maybe Beast-Hunter shells will still be a thing!

I've got two of those Ryza Pattern Vanquisher turrets, I really hope beast hunter shells still exist in the form of mortal wounds or something.

it's pretty bad if Guard have to rely on forgeworld every damn edition.

**Kommissar Kel**

SeraphimXIX wrote:
Oooooh, I checked the profile and you're right. Also the battlecannon is pen 2 vs the vanquisher's pen 3!

edit- It doesn't change its performance much though. :(

It's statistically worse against both T7 4+sv targets and T8 3+sv targets then the battlecannon. I decided to see what its average would look like with +1 BS as well and it doesn't improve much.

BS is exactly the same. .5 hits per shot fired.

The battle cannon averages 3.5 shots per turn netting 1.75 hits vs t8, with an average d3 damage of 2, that is 1.75 damage to be saved at ap-2.

The vanguisher huts half the time, wounding 1/4 of the time vs t8. Average damage of 2d6 pick high is 4.47 damage if 1.1175 damage to be saved.

Against t7, both get the same # of hits, with 1.1666wounds doing 1.3333 damage on the battle cannon and .6666 wounds doing 1.48888 damage on the vanquisher.

T9 goes the opposite way with .744999 damage to be saved from the vanquisher and 1.1666 damage from the battle cannon

So, yes it is worse against t8, but it is better against t7 or lower. Well, single model multi-wound targets anyways. The battle cannon damages multiple-model units better that the vanquisher(but it is supposed to).

Also the current vanquisher is a single shot on a bs3 model with a better armor penetration rate. The new one can also hurt mcs and gmcs. It is an upgrade .

**master of ordinance**

Can someone please confirm that the Russ stats are either bull or the cost has dropped to almost nothing, because those look horrible. Being no more survivable than a Predator that also happens to heavily outgun it, the Russ is not in a good place. And that Vanquisher stat line is an outright insult to what was THE iconic tank hunter of 40K.

**Vaktathi**

The Vanquisher has been an awful tank hunter, in actual practice, since...ever, sadly, and that doesnt look to change.

However, the stats for T, W and Sv are straight from GW's website, the Russ was one of the first vehicles profiled, to show "how much stronger" they supposedly are...

**Martel732**

They are much stronger. But that's mostly due to removal of mechanics like grav.

**Zewrath**

The changes to the LR are atrocious. Anyone hoping that the will be reduced in points or stay the same will be deeply disappointed. The Chaos Vindicator with the demolisher cannon became nearly 50+ points more expensive, I'm 100% convinced that according to GW's mindset, because the LR no longer has to snapshot after shooting with ordinance and multi damage is "super good" and got a "huge boost to its survivability", that they have now convinced themselves to believe that that now warrants massive increases in points.

If I had to take a guess, then I'd say the Exterminator variant will now see massive table time and Pask will be on an Executioner variant. If you compare how other multiple small blast template weapon got treated, the Executioner will likely have 3d3 shots along with 2d3 sponsons shots, which isn't really that bad. Assuming I'm correct of course.

**SeraphimXIX**

Kommissar Kel wrote:
SeraphimXIX wrote:
Oooooh, I checked the profile and you're right. Also the battlecannon is pen 2 vs the vanquisher's pen 3!

edit- It doesn't change its performance much though. :(

It's statistically worse against both T7 4+sv targets and T8 3+sv targets then the battlecannon. I decided to see what its average would look like with +1 BS as well and it doesn't improve much.

BS is exactly the same. .5 hits per shot fired.

The battle cannon averages 3.5 shots per turn netting 1.75 hits vs t8, with an average d3 damage of 2, that is 1.75 damage to be saved at ap-2.

The vanguisher huts half the time, wounding 1/4 of the time vs t8. Average damage of 2d6 pick high is 4.47 damage if 1.1175 damage to be saved.

Against t7, both get the same # of hits, with 1.1666wounds doing 1.3333 damage on the battle cannon and .6666 wounds doing 1.48888 damage on the vanquisher.

T9 goes the opposite way with .744999 damage to be saved from the vanquisher and 1.1666 damage from the battle cannon

So, yes it is worse against t8, but it is better against t7 or lower. Well, single model multi-wound targets anyways. The battle cannon damages multiple-model units better that the vanquisher(but it is supposed to).

Also the current vanquisher is a single shot on a bs3 model with a better armor penetration rate. The new one can also hurt mcs and gmcs. It is an upgrade .

You roll for saves before rolling for damage- you only roll damage for unsaved wounds.

So in the case of T7, the battlecannon is averaging 1 unsaved wound (2 damage total) and the vanquisher is averaging .33 unsaved wounds (0 damage total).

**usmcmidn**

Can the guard still get carapace armor???

**FunJohn**

Spoiler:

Wow so unless it's cheap it's rendered useless by the battlecannon.

**Shadelkan**

Just a minor FYI, the land raider has T8 as well, so that part represents AV 14. The land raider getting a 2+ sv while the Russ gets a 4+ save likely has to do with a translation of rear AV values.

That said, Narthicium heals wounds, and Ill bet you 20$ that techpriest engineseers will also heal wounds.

**FunJohn**

usmcmidn wrote:
Can the guard still get carapace armor???

No idea if characters and units can, but I assume Scions still have it

**Trickstick**

Let's hope that the keywords don't let medics heal tanks. That would be silly.

**Chris521**

The knight pages were leaked. As expected, the rapid fire battle cannon is a 2D6 version of ours. Unfortunately, they seem to think that its worth 100 points which isn't promising for the Russ