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Hey guys,

if you take a mixed Deathwatch Kill Team unit of let's say 5 Deathwatch Veteran, 1 Deathwatch Terminator, 1 Deathwatch Vanguard Veteran and 1 Deathwatch Biker, this unit would gain the Terminator, Jump Pack, and Biker keywords.

Now how much space does this unit take up in a transport such as the Corvus Blackstar? In it's entry it says it has a transport capacity of 12 infantry models. Each Terminator or Jump Pack model takes up 2 slots and each Biker model takes up 3. Since the entire unit now has all 3 keywords, how does this work? Physically this unit is taking up only 5+2+2+3 slots aka 12.

No, go look in the index for this type of unit, you have only the keywords mark there.

LinkXx wrote:
Hey guys,

if you take a mixed Deathwatch Kill Team unit of let's say 5 Deathwatch Veteran, 1 Deathwatch Terminator, 1 Deathwatch Vanguard Veteran and 1 Deathwatch Biker, this unit would gain the Terminator, Jump Pack, and Biker keywords.

Now how much space does this unit take up in a transport such as the Corvus Blackstar? In it's entry it says it has a transport capacity of 12 infantry models. Each Terminator or Jump Pack model takes up 2 slots and each Biker model takes up 3. Since the entire unit now has all 3 keywords, how does this work? Physically this unit is taking up only 5+2+2+3 slots aka 12.

It is unknown for sure until GW FAQs it. Until then, I think most people will let you play it where you only pay the space penalty for the individual models that you upgrade regardless of the RAW. However, you also gotta be prepared for people to not be okay with this and want you to play more by the RAW, which in my mind means taking the biggest hit of all the keywords (3 spots for every model if you have the 'BIKER' keyword).

Does anyone have the actual stats for the black star?

For some reason electronic version is showing 14 T and 14 W.

Also showing it gets 3 attacks in the small box but 8 Attacks normally.

Here you go.

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
For some reason electronic version is showing 14 T and 14 W.

What I have says Toughness 7 and 14 wounds

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Also showing it gets 3 attacks in the small box but 8 Attacks normally.

You're looking at its Leadership. The stat line has an asterisk for its Attack stat as its always dependent on the number of wounds the model has remaining.

Electronic bugs. Figured it wasn't quite that good.

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Electronic bugs. Figured it wasn't quite that good.

what a beast

Back to the OP query, if you note it states the UNIT gets those keywords, not the models in the unit. For transports it lists which models can or cannot be in the transport and also how many spaces each model takes up based upon the model's keyword(s).

Pedroig wrote:
Back to the OP query, if you note it states the UNIT gets those keywords, not the models in the unit. For transports it lists which models can or cannot be in the transport and also how many spaces each model takes up based upon the model's keyword(s).

That is the issue. Mixed unit doesn't say those models have the keywords; it says the unit gains the keywords.

Unit entry keywords apply to all models in the unit.

RAW, they all take up the space for the most restrictive model(2 or 3 per model)

RAI(probably) and HIWPI; only the actual models take up the additional space.

In either instance, the kill-team gains the abilities for the special troopers(fall back and shoot as if they had fly for having a single jump pack, fall back and charge for having a single biker, can teleport with a single terminator and an active homer, and auto-pass moral for a single termi); so taking the hit in transport capacity by RAW is not such a bad comprimise.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Pedroig wrote:
Back to the OP query, if you note it states the UNIT gets those keywords, not the models in the unit. For transports it lists which models can or cannot be in the transport and also how many spaces each model takes up based upon the model's keyword(s).

That is the issue. Mixed unit doesn't say those models have the keywords; it says the unit gains the keywords.

Unit entry keywords apply to all models in the unit.

RAW, they all take up the space for the most restrictive model(2 or 3 per model)

RAI(probably) and HIWPI; only the actual models take up the additional space.

In either instance, the kill-team gains the abilities for the special troopers(fall back and shoot as if they had fly for having a single jump pack, fall back and charge for having a single biker, can teleport with a single terminator and an active homer, and auto-pass moral for a single termi); so taking the hit in transport capacity by RAW is not such a bad comprimise.

I haven't seen the highlighted red portion anywhere in the rules. Could you please tell me which page this is on.

Also, RAW, each model would take up 8 spaces as it is simultaneously an infantry model, a jump pack model, a terminator model and a biker model. As I could also not find in the rules anywhere that it says use the most restrictive keyword when determining a models transport capacity.

But it does say that certain models "takes the space of x number of models" since it cannot take its own space away, those spaces must be taken away from other models. Therefor any model that has "infantry" and "jump pack" really uses up three spaces as it takes it's own space and takes the space of two others.

It even becomes more complicated when figuring this out. As it doesn't say which model it actually takes the place of. What if all the places taken are from bikes? Do you factor in the spaces that would have also been taken away by those bikes when figuring out how many spaces to take?

These rules are a travesty and completely unintelligible, there is no way to figure this out!!!!!!!! WE NEED A FAQ


or each model with the actual gear takes up the space allotted for a model with that gear.

Call me silly.

Unit entry keywords apply to all models in the unit.

Where is this specified?

The Corvus can hold terminators, bikes, and vanguard vets it states it in its rules. So you can take a squad of 4 bikes and toss it in the Corvus and all those keywords are included with that kill team and it doesn't change a single thing with how the Corvus transports except capacity.

LinkXx wrote:

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Electronic bugs. Figured it wasn't quite that good.

what a beast

Only problem is that it starts with 3 Wounds, then is immediately reduced to 1 wound after looking at the chart.

Pedroig wrote:

Unit entry keywords apply to all models in the unit.

Where is this specified?

There are a few datasheets that split out keywords (like the Genestealer Cult Magus, for example), but the Deathwatch Kill Team is not one of them. Plus their rule is pretty crystal clear:

'Whilst the unit includes any Deathwatch Terminators it has the TERMINATOR keyword; whilst it includes any Deathwatch Bikers, it has the BIKER keyword; whilst is includes any Deathwatch Vanguard Veterans, it has the JUMP PACK keyword.'

 Idolator wrote:
I haven't seen the highlighted red portion anywhere in the rules. Could you please tell me which page this is on.

Also, RAW, each model would take up 8 spaces as it is simultaneously an infantry model, a jump pack model, a terminator model and a biker model. As I could also not find in the rules anywhere that it says use the most restrictive keyword when determining a models transport capacity.

But it does say that certain models "takes the space of x number of models" since it cannot take its own space away, those spaces must be taken away from other models. Therefor any model that has "infantry" and "jump pack" really uses up three spaces as it takes it's own space and takes the space of two others.

It even becomes more complicated when figuring this out. As it doesn't say which model it actually takes the place of. What if all the places taken are from bikes? Do you factor in the spaces that would have also been taken away by those bikes when figuring out how many spaces to take?

These rules are a travesty and completely unintelligible, there is no way to figure this out!!!!!!!! WE NEED A FAQ


or each model with the actual gear takes up the space allotted for a model with that gear.

Call me silly.

As I pointed out above with the Magus, there are precedents for units having split out keywords for each model, so GW clearly wanted the Kill Team to be different, because the entire unit gets pretty nifty abilities if even a single 'specialty' model of that type is in the unit. So its possible (although unlikely, I grant) to believe that they might have wanted a mixed unit like that to take up extra transport space as a trade-off for these abilities.

@yakface You still haven't described nor shown where the Unit keyword applies to all models within the unit, mix it with WYSIWYG and you have some very hefty problems.

You would need to model your mixed Kill Team as a Terminator, on a BIke, with a Jump Pack, every single model. Clearly that is not the intent. Each model would then get a a move of 14", ability to take TAC, extra wounds, 2+/5+ save, and twin linked bolters. After all, if one must take all the penalties, surely one would get all the benefits of the keywords as well, not just certain, specified benefits and penalties listed on the datasheet...

Pedroig wrote:
@yakface You still haven't described nor shown where the Unit keyword applies to all models within the unit, mix it with WYSIWYG and you have some very hefty problems.

What? I did exactly that. Look at the wording for the kill team rule again: it says Whilst the unit has X model it has the Y keyword.

So the rule literally says that the UNIT is getting the keyword if you have that type of model in the unit.

And then I pointed out a unit that has keywords actually split between the models to show you the difference between the two types (the Magus unit, but there's lots of others too if you want me to point those out as well).

You would need to model your mixed Kill Team as a Terminator, on a BIke, with a Jump Pack, every single model. Clearly that is not the intent. Each model would then get a a move of 14", ability to take TAC, extra wounds, 2+/5+ save, and twin linked bolters. After all, if one must take all the penalties, surely one would get all the benefits of the keywords as well, not just certain, specified benefits and penalties listed on the datasheet...

No you wouldn't, why do you say that? The keywords do nothing except provide the unit different abilities and/or affect the unit in certain situations. The 14" move a biker gets is because that's his profile, not because he has the BIKER keyword. I mean, there are plenty of situations where GW has mixed units but has chosen to give them keywords different than what you'd traditionally consider their keywords to be. For example, Ragnar Blackmane comes with his two pet Fenrisian Wolves, yet his unit (including them) still only has the INFANTRY keyword, not BEAST, even though the normal Fenrisian Wolves unit are BEASTs, not INFANTRY.

So clearly GW wanted Leman Russ and his wolves to be able to board transports, climb ruins, etc, even though he has 2 wolves with him.

I'm not saying the rules for the Kill Team with all those keywords is clear, far from it...I don't think GW came close to thinking about the implications of the way they wrote it. But I do definitely think if you read the way its written and compare it to other units that do have split-out keywords for different models then it sure looks like GW wanted the Kill Team to be a unit that has a mishmash of different keywords.

Datasheet breakdown in the core rules and the indexes.

You know, the page no one ever reads and then start making wild claims?

#9, middle of the paragraph: "The former can be used as a guide to help decide which models to include in your army, but otherwise both sets of keywords are functionally the same. Sometimes a rule will say that it applies to models with a specific keyword. For example , a rule might say that it applies to all Adeptus Astartes models'. This means it would only apply to models that have the Adeptus Astartes keyword on their datasheet."

So there you have keywords on a unit's datasheet are for all the models in the unit unless otherwise specifed.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Datasheet breakdown in the core rules and the indexes.

You know, the page no one ever reads and then start making wild claims?

#9, middle of the paragraph: "The former can be used as a guide to help decide which models to include in your army, but otherwise both sets of keywords are functionally the same. Sometimes a rule will say that it applies to models with a specific keyword. For example , a rule might say that it applies to all Adeptus Astartes models'. This means it would only apply to models that have the Adeptus Astartes keyword on their datasheet."

So there you have keywords on a unit's datasheet are for all the models in the unit unless otherwise specifed.

AH yes, I see right there in the text that you highlighted, where it clearly says "Use the most restrictive keyword". Wait-a-minute....it must be hidden behind the line that boldly states "Unit entry keywords apply to all models in the unit.".......erm.....well...

Bonus: List entry in Deathwatch doesn't state that all models in a unit have the keyword, just that the unit does. There are several examples of units with mixed models having different keywords that apply to the different models in the unit. Such as a Unit of Nobz that contain ammo runts. All have the "Orks" and "(klan)' key word , but the Nobz have "Infantry" and "Nobz" and the Ammo Runts have "Infantry","Gretchin", and "ammo runts". Giving you a prime example of units having the key word but specific models not having such a connection to the key word. If those two statements were to exist in the rule book, then both the Nobz and the Ammo Runts would simultaneously both count and be ignored when determining morale.

Since there is no requirement to have a mixed unit and a unit can contain several different types of models, this entry in the data sheet is the separation of the differing models. Just because you do not like the way that this separation is written does not make it any less clear.

One has to go out their way to find fault in this. Otherwise, every model in the unit gains all the keywords for every model and that doesn't change even if the actual model that has gear is removed. It only works, at all, if they are separate entries...which they are

No one has addressed the statement that I made about the Corvus Blackstar transport entry. The fact that it only states that xxxxx models takes the space of two/three other models while never stating which models those are. Applying the "logical assertion" that all models in the mixed unit have all keywords (along with all the restrictions) then you would never be able to place a Deathwatch Kill Team in a Corvus Blackstar if it contained Terminator, Jump Pack, or Biker key words.

Which is equally ridiculous. No FAQ is needed here. It's rather plain on its face. Each model imparts the keyword to the unit but only has those abilities and restrictions applied to itself, unless otherwise noted. Terminator and Jump Pack models take the space oft two infantry models, while Biker models take the space of three infantry models.

If anyone were to try to play me any differently, I would point out the fact that they were not rolling dice as required by the rules, that they were in fact throwing or casting dice which tumble, this is not allowed according to the rules. (unless they actually had round dice and started with the dice in contact with a plane)