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So I'm doing a HH event at Warhammer World in a few months. If it follows the format of previous events I have done at Warhammer World the ranking will be primarily based on how my favorite game of the tournament ratings you get from your opponent with VPs being used as the secondary ranking.

With that in mind I do not plan on taking my Knights as everybody always moans about playing Knights (unless they play mechanicum) so I will be taking my Ultramarines. I want to avoid taking any units that are *considered* broken rather than units that are actually broken.

My list to avoid already has Typhons and Quad Launchers, what else should I be avoiding?

 Looky Likey wrote:
So I'm doing a HH event at Warhammer World in a few months. If it follows the format of previous events I have done at Warhammer World the ranking will be primarily based on how my favorite game of the tournament ratings you get from your opponent with VPs being used as the secondary ranking.

With that in mind I do not plan on taking my Knights as everybody always moans about playing Knights (unless they play mechanicum) so I will be taking my Ultramarines. I want to avoid taking any units that are *considered* broken rather than units that are actually broken.

My list to avoid already has Typhons and Quad Launchers, what else should I be avoiding?

Suzerains are on the strong tier, although I doubt I'd call them broken. They're the obligatory "AP2 at initiative 2+ armour deathstar" unit that pretty much every legion has.

Quad Launchers are pretty much fine, if you don't take Phosphex too.
Sicarans are always taken, as far as I see, but that just because they're pretty dang effective, not broken.
Leviathan Dreadnoughts in a Drop Pod is also on that strong side.

Really, in my experience, from doing WHW tourneys, the people tend to be rather chill, and just talking to your opponent is usually very good. I was beaten by some pretty nasty lists, but I liked the guy who played it, and it was fun. Regardless what you take, if you can make it fun, then you should probably get some benefits.
Source: myself, who won a "best sportsman" award of some kind about four years ago at WHW.

If you're trying to land that, just try and interact, talk and try not to netlist.

I have a personal distaste for Firedrakes, just because the layers of saves and multiple wounds make them a headache to efficiently remove.

Lightning with 6 penatrators is a usual auto-include cause it can reliable delete Spartans and even some superheavies

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Quad Launchers are pretty much fine, if you don't take Phosphex too.

The only thing in all of 40k that Quad Launchers without Phosphex are worse than is Quad Launchers with Phosphex.

Quad Launchers are the problem, no matter what ammo they are using.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Suzerains are on the strong tier, although I doubt I'd call them broken. They're the obligatory "AP2 at initiative 2+ armour deathstar" unit that pretty much every legion has.

Please do share how night lords can get "AP 2 at initiative 2+ armour deathstar".

Ghorgul wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Suzerains are on the strong tier, although I doubt I'd call them broken. They're the obligatory "AP2 at initiative 2+ armour deathstar" unit that pretty much every legion has.

Please do share how night lords can get "AP 2 at initiative 2+ armour deathstar".

Ditto that for Iron Warriors

agurus1 wrote:

Ghorgul wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Suzerains are on the strong tier, although I doubt I'd call them broken. They're the obligatory "AP2 at initiative 2+ armour deathstar" unit that pretty much every legion has.

Please do share how night lords can get "AP 2 at initiative 2+ armour deathstar".

Ditto that for Iron Warriors

Or Sons of Horus&lloood angels.

tneva82 wrote:

agurus1 wrote:

Ghorgul wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Suzerains are on the strong tier, although I doubt I'd call them broken. They're the obligatory "AP2 at initiative 2+ armour deathstar" unit that pretty much every legion has.

Please do share how night lords can get "AP 2 at initiative 2+ armour deathstar".

Ditto that for Iron Warriors

Or Sons of Horus&lloood angels.

Or simple: most legions

Do Surizans have void hardened armor?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Looky Likey wrote:
So I'm doing a HH event at Warhammer World in a few months. If it follows the format of previous events I have done at Warhammer World the ranking will be primarily based on how my favorite game of the tournament ratings you get from your opponent with VPs being used as the secondary ranking.

With that in mind I do not plan on taking my Knights as everybody always moans about playing Knights (unless they play mechanicum) so I will be taking my Ultramarines. I want to avoid taking any units that are *considered* broken rather than units that are actually broken.

My list to avoid already has Typhons and Quad Launchers, what else should I be avoiding?

Suzerains are on the strong tier, although I doubt I'd call them broken. They're the obligatory "AP2 at initiative 2+ armour deathstar" unit that pretty much every legion has.

Quad Launchers are pretty much fine, if you don't take Phosphex too.
Sicarans are always taken, as far as I see, but that just because they're pretty dang effective, not broken.
Leviathan Dreadnoughts in a Drop Pod is also on that strong side.

Really, in my experience, from doing WHW tourneys, the people tend to be rather chill, and just talking to your opponent is usually very good. I was beaten by some pretty nasty lists, but I liked the guy who played it, and it was fun. Regardless what you take, if you can make it fun, then you should probably get some benefits.
Source: myself, who won a "best sportsman" award of some kind about four years ago at WHW.

If you're trying to land that, just try and interact, talk and try not to netlist.

I did a 40k one recently, and did ok. You could see those who had cheesed up on their list get zero or close to game of the day but a huge number of VP. I'm keen to avoid that with 30k if I can as I tend to play stronger lists in 30k due to my local meta.

I'm a bit gutted if Surizans are disliked as I use mine as a bodyguard for RG. They are pretty solid though. One idea I had was sticking RG, Surizans, rad/phosphex destroyers, and a pair of dreads in a Mastodon then assaulting my opponents back line.

What do people think of the grav and las rapiers?

Grav and las rapiers are fine

The only unit I have problems with on the table is the Rapier Weapons Battery with Phosphex Canisters. It doubles the points of the unit, and you have to take a Siege Break Consul "tax". The effectiveness of the unit is just insane. A unit of three of these in a 2,500 point game is enough to ruin any enjoyment you get out of the game.

After that, I'm not a big fan of artillery. The ability to field multiple field pieces in a squad means you could be facing an entire army of artillery. In 30K, really the only thing that can deal with artillery is... artillery. The few pieces I've played against always get parked in the corner behind some terrain, and they ALWAYS make back their points. It sucks when your opponent has a weapon that can shoot just about anywhere on the table, doesn't require line of sight, can kill infantry and most light vehicles with ease, and cause pinning tests- and when you don't have ATSKNF, that's a pretty big deal. I really feel that artillery is way under costed for what it does in 30K. Dealing with one or two models is a hassle. Multiple squads of artillery? Bleh.

On a personal army note- my Reaver Squads for the Sons of Horus. They got a much needed boost last year (+1 BS with bolt weapons within 12"), but they are still over shadowed by Veterans- which got that same +1 BS rule. The actual models themselves were made in true scale 28mm... which means they are smaller then the 28mm "Heroic Scale" Space Marines that GW currently makes. I love the look of the models, but the scale and rules really turn them off to me.

Do you mean artillery as in T7 gun with attendant crew members or any unit with barrage weapons?

Don't worry about your list, make sure that your army is painted as best as you can, go into every game wanting to have fun without trying to force the fun to happen, remind your opponent of rules they forget that will impact negatively on you (i.e. Rerolling blast saves on breachers), and don't be negative if things don't go your way. I'd rather play someone like that and receive a turn one tabling, than win a game against someone who had dumbed down their list to curry favour with me for a prize.

I'm going to the same event I think (Aug. 19th?) - taking Magnus and Sekhmet - yeah they're strong, but my 2k army is like 16 models so easy come easy go.

If I get smashed well my fault for bringing a tiny army, if Magnus destroys everything well I'll just be friendly.

agurus1 wrote:
Do you mean artillery as in T7 gun with attendant crew members or any unit with barrage weapons?

I'm talking the Solar Auxilia player that maxes out on Artillery in their Heavy Support slots (the local player did 3 Medusa's, 3 Basilisks, and a Whirlwind) Primary Detachment, and then adds an Allied Detachment of Iron Warriors with three more Medusa's. Yeah, that was a fun game when I lost on turn two after being shot off the board. After turn 1, he took out all my anti-armor vehicles, leaving me with no way to hurt his artillery outside of a couple melta bombs, p-fists, and occasional combi-melta. I was faced with foot slogging across the board to engage his artillery in the far back of his deployment zone, or move to objectives and hope to last until the end of the game. Turns out I didn't even last another turn. Now, if I had a flyer, it would have been a totally different game. Or maybe some out flankers. But I didn't. So... yeah. Gave me a sour taste in my mouth for that particular style of army.

The T7 gun with two Space Marines parked in cover isn't much fun either. An Alpha Legion player did come up with a pretty cool solution to that problem though. A Predator with Execution Plasma Destroyer. If it doesn't take out the gun, it'll probably take out the crew which is just as good. Because it's a Predator, it's not considered as much of a threat as other vehicles until it starts popping those MSU units...

Hmmm what type of game were you playing and what about terrain? If that's his all comers list he could have a hard time with objective based games especially if there is multi-story terrain for your men to hide in. I think barrage still stops at the highest level of s building that is hit yes? So Infantry on the ground floor is safe? Sucks that you had a sour game though :(

agurus1 wrote:
Hmmm what type of game were you playing and what about terrain? If that's his all comers list he could have a hard time with objective based games especially if there is multi-story terrain for your men to hide in. I think barrage still stops at the highest level of s building that is hit yes? So Infantry on the ground floor is safe? Sucks that you had a sour game though :(

3000 points, Shatter Strike, "typical" terrain. Had a mix of stuff, couple ruined buildings that where just ruins (and not buildings per the rules).

I've looked through the entire rule book and can't find that rule about blast/barrage/artillery stopping at the top level of a building. If you count the battlefield terrain as a building, then you should be using the building ruins- it has an AV value, can only hold so many models, and even worse, the building damage table that can be just as unforgiving as the Stomp table. If you treat it as ruins, then multiple levels and all that don't matter... unless I can find that stupid rule!

Anyways. There is always "That Guy" in every gaming club, and this was him.

I'm pretty sure the safety from barrages on lower levels was removed between 6th-7th.

I hate Sekhmet Terminators over everything. Resilient, mobile, good at combat, good in melee, easily buffed with psychic Praetors, they're just too good at everything. It's comical that they're cheaper than the much, MUCH worse Varangyr Terminators.

 Eldarain wrote:
I'm pretty sure the safety from barrages on lower levels was removed between 6th-7th.

That's a shame, I found it to be extremely fluffy and cap on the power of barrage weapons. Personally I play IW with several basilisks and I still play that building levels block cover. Didn't know it had been removed :(

agurus1 wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
I'm pretty sure the safety from barrages on lower levels was removed between 6th-7th.

That's a shame, I found it to be extremely fluffy and cap on the power of barrage weapons. Personally I play IW with several basilisks and I still play that building levels block cover. Didn't know it had been removed :(

Well, do you play this multilevel models as Buildings using the full rules of Buildings, or do you play them as Battlefield Ruins? Seems most people play "buildings" as some kind of house rules combining rules from previous editions and whatever else makes sense, which is fine, play the game the way you want! Just be aware that you are not using the rules from the rule book.

Varangyr Terminators are probably some of the worst named unit terminators in 30K. I'd rather take a generic unit of Terminators in Tartarous. Why make a named unit that can't benefit from most of the Space Wolves Special Rules AND can't benefit from the the same rules as regular terminators? Oh, and don't forget that they are priced as if they had two wounds. Varangyr Terminators make no sense rules wise or fluff wise. You are better off taking Veterans, a Command Squad, or Tartarous pattern terminators. I'd say Varangyr are the most disappointing unit in 30K.

Rampagers. They're just too good. Sick of them showing up all the time and they're just deadly.


Sarcasm.

tneva82 wrote:

agurus1 wrote:

Ghorgul wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Suzerains are on the strong tier, although I doubt I'd call them broken. They're the obligatory "AP2 at initiative 2+ armour deathstar" unit that pretty much every legion has.

Please do share how night lords can get "AP 2 at initiative 2+ armour deathstar".

Ditto that for Iron Warriors

Or Sons of Horus&lloood angels.

Don't forget about the Seventeenth!

I would say the only units I hear come up on a regular basis are

Phosphex rapiers & Sekhmet terminators.

 AaronWilson wrote:
I would say the only units I hear come up on a regular basis are

Phosphex rapiers & Sekhmet terminators.

I have played against rapiers, and basically the easiest way to get rid of them is to infiltrate right up to them (if you happen to have Raven Guard) and/or deep strike a CC unit right up next to it. The guys tending the guns only have bolt pistols, so they'll die quite easily to veterans with a power sword or two, claws termies, pretty much all the legion-specific CC units or even bolt pistol/chainsword tacs.

And as a TSons player, I will most definitely NOT tell you how to defeat my sekhmet.

 EmberlordofFire8 wrote:

 AaronWilson wrote:
I would say the only units I hear come up on a regular basis are

Phosphex rapiers & Sekhmet terminators.

I have played against rapiers, and basically the easiest way to get rid of them is to infiltrate right up to them (if you happen to have Raven Guard) and/or deep strike a CC unit right up next to it. The guys tending the guns only have bolt pistols, so they'll die quite easily to veterans with a power sword or two, claws termies, pretty much all the legion-specific CC units or even bolt pistol/chainsword tacs.

And as a TSons player, I will most definitely NOT tell you how to defeat my sekhmet.

Problem with deep strikers being apart from not that common you are looking at turn 3 assault earliest so 2-3 rounds of shooting. That's quite a lot of damage they get to do in time.

tneva82 wrote:

 EmberlordofFire8 wrote:

 AaronWilson wrote:
I would say the only units I hear come up on a regular basis are

Phosphex rapiers & Sekhmet terminators.

I have played against rapiers, and basically the easiest way to get rid of them is to infiltrate right up to them (if you happen to have Raven Guard) and/or deep strike a CC unit right up next to it. The guys tending the guns only have bolt pistols, so they'll die quite easily to veterans with a power sword or two, claws termies, pretty much all the legion-specific CC units or even bolt pistol/chainsword tacs.

And as a TSons player, I will most definitely NOT tell you how to defeat my sekhmet.

Problem with deep strikers being apart from not that common you are looking at turn 3 assault earliest so 2-3 rounds of shooting. That's quite a lot of damage they get to do in time.

A quick way to do some damage to Raper batteries is to drop some units with graviton guns next to them. Land Speeders can grab them, the Leviathin can Pod in and hit them with the grav bombard, etc, etc. The graviton weapons force the enemy unit to make a Str test or take a wound. Well, the Raper batteries don't have a Str value so they automatically lose and take a wound. I know it's not much but at least it's one possible way to deal with the rapers.

There is no effective, or even good way to deal with a Rapier Battery. Most of the time, these things are parked behind cover, or right on the edge of the board. A smart player will have another unit deployed within 12" towards the opposing player to prevent infiltration shenanigans. Deep strike... so many variables, and far too easy to mess up. Deep Strike- earliest it could come in is turn two, and assault turn 3. You could do a Drop Pod Assault RoW, but that list just sucks, and everyone has some kind of Interceptor. Mortis Contemptor with Kheres Assault Cannons is too cheap not to take for this exact role.

No, the best defense against a Phosphex Rapier is to keep all your models mounted up as long as possible until you are close enough to deal with them. If you have to dismount, or you are foot slogging, spread out to the max extent possible to minimize hits, and stay in cover for the initial hit, it's up to you if you want to make dangerous terrain tests for the rest of the game. Suck up the shots, try to get within 12", use 2+ armor saves to get there. All easier said then done for a unit that has far, far under-costed for what it has. Should be a maximum two shots.

Oh, another way to deal with them that just hit me: Flyers. I don't use flyers, and not many in my group do because they are pretty fragile and any dedicated AAA will take them out easily. They could be a very effective counter to Rapiers and Artillery in general. Might be time to invest in a Colonial Viper MK IV... errr... I mean a Xiphon Interceptor. Or a Lightning. Both cost about the same, and on paper, they both look about equal.