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Made in fi
Mindless Spore Mine





Kaarina, Finland

So I asked this already on reddit and got very mixed answers. Might aswell try my luck here.

So a question regarding Massive Scything talons on Tyranids:

I noticed the ruling on these is "If the bearer has more than one pair of massive scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights." The Trygon and Trygon prime have 3 pairs of these and 6 attacks base so 5-6 attacks with the talons (one possibly forced to go on a tail). My question is, if I attack with these, even splitting my attacks so all pairs get to attack if needed. Do I get only +1 attack, or do I get +3 attacks? Because each of these weapons have the same ruling and when "checking" for additional pairs of talons, there is always two additional pairs present when attacking with one pair. Many have said that you only get +1 and many are onboard that it is indeed +3 attacks.

So what are your thoughts on the matter? 1 or 3? I would love to get this cleared.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




You can split your attacks into each Talon and gain a bonus attack each time. So you can legitimately get 3 bonus attacks RAW with those weapons.
   
Made in gb
Sinewy Scourge




I don't think you even need to split attacks to get the extras.
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

Drager wrote:
I don't think you even need to split attacks to get the extras.


Indeed - you just need to have the weapon to gain the additional attacks - same as a Chain sword or Chopper

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

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"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




 Mr Morden wrote:
Drager wrote:
I don't think you even need to split attacks to get the extras.


Indeed - you just need to have the weapon to gain the additional attacks - same as a Chain sword or Chopper


I'm not so sure that's true. It's not 1 additional attack PER pair, it's one additional attack for HAVING more than one pair.

So if you use one pair to make attacks, you get 1 additional attack because you have two more pairs, RAW. If you split your attacks between the pairs (something that looks to be RAW but I'm personally not 100% sure is RAI so it's not how I'm playing it until it's confirmed), THEN you get more extra attacks because each time you attack with a pair, you read the description and get the extra attack for that pair due to the existence of the other pairs.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/19 15:28:55


 
   
Made in fi
Mindless Spore Mine





Kaarina, Finland

Jacksmiles wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Drager wrote:
I don't think you even need to split attacks to get the extras.


Indeed - you just need to have the weapon to gain the additional attacks - same as a Chain sword or Chopper


I'm not so sure that's true. It's not 1 additional attack PER pair, it's one additional attack for HAVING more than one pair.

So if you use one pair to make attacks, you get 1 additional attack because you have two more pairs, RAW. If you split your attacks between the pairs (something that looks to be RAW but I'm personally not 100% sure is RAI so it's not how I'm playing it until it's confirmed), THEN you get more extra attacks because each time you attack with a pair, you read the description and get the extra attack for that pair due to the existence of the other pairs.


That's a valid point, that you only get +3 attacks, if you attack with all 3 in a single fight phase. Then again it feels very stupid that you need to declare you attack with 3 different yet identical weapons, so you get the bonus. Why is there even an option not to then? Who would not want +3 attacks instead of +1?
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

"If the bearer has more than one pair of massive scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights."
#

The way I read it is that you just have to possess the weapons but yep you are right its plural ("more than one pair") in this particular case.

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




 Mr Morden wrote:
"If the bearer has more than one pair of massive scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights."
#

The way I read it is that you just have to possess the weapons but yep you are right its plural ("more than one pair") in this particular case.


Actually now I think you might be right lol.
If the bearer has more than one pair of monstrous/massive scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights.
Every time the model fights, it would then make an additional attack for the weapon because it has more than one, regardless of which weapon it chose, right? For example, if a trygon could have boneswords, and had boneswords plus 2 pairs of massive scything talons, it could attack with the boneswords and have an extra attack with each pair of scything talons, right? Or am I reading it wrong now?

Because it says "each time it fights," not "each time it attacks with this weapon" or something similar. My bad! Sorry to make anyone doubt if this is the case, which it looks to be now I've reread the rule.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/06/19 16:35:28


 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




Yeah, I don't see how this can be read except as saying that, every single time the model fights, regardless of which weapon it makes its base attacks with, it makes one free attack with each pair of scything talons provided that it has at least two pairs.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





But if those rules apply every time you fight, and you don't actually need to use the weapon, I don't see why you would read the rules as applying three separate times. You would just read them once, and get one extra attack.

But on the other hand I don't understand why any models would have three sets of 30 pt scything talons if they could only ever get an extra one attack from them.
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




Tower wrote:
But if those rules apply every time you fight, and you don't actually need to use the weapon, I don't see why you would read the rules as applying three separate times. You would just read them once, and get one extra attack.

But on the other hand I don't understand why any models would have three sets of 30 pt scything talons if they could only ever get an extra one attack from them.

I don't see where you're coming from.

So, suppose your model has three weapons: a Chainsword, a Bo-bainsword, and a Banana-fana fo-fainsword. Each weapon has an ability like: "the bearer can make one additional attack with this weapon each time it fights". Then surely what happens is that when the model fights, it gets its base attacks with the weapon of its choice -- perhaps a different weapon entirely like a power axe -- and then it gets to make one additional attack with the chainsword, one additional attack with the bo-bainsword, etc. Right? Their rules don't say anything about having to make a base attack with the weapon in order to get the additional attack. And they stack because there's nothing indicating that they don't stack.

Likewise, if a model just had three chainswords, surely they work the same. There's no uniqueness rule for weapons. If I have two melta guns I get to shoot both, and I get to roll-two-choose-one for damage on both of their attacks. I can make my base attacks with a power axe and then I get one additional attack with each chainsword.

If my model has a chainsword, with the usual rule, and a schmainsword, which says: "if the bearer also has a chainsword, it can make one additional attack with this weapon each time it fights", then surely it's going to get two additional attacks. The chainsword is going to do what it always does, and then the model gets another additional attack from the schmainsword. Its conditional rule is telling you when it gives you an additional attack; it's not just reminder text telling you to remember that chainswords give you an additional attack.

Put it all together and I think it's clear how scything talons have to work. I have three weapons. Each weapon gives me an additional attack if a condition is met. The condition is met. So I get an additional attack from each weapon.
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




I had this same discuusion with my gaming group until i spotted this.

if you read the tyranid points values page 2 it lists

Massive scything talons (two or more pairs) (Trygon and Trygon Prime)

so it listed as a single weapon not 3 weapons.

so think you only get the +1 attack for it.
   
Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




pottsye wrote:
I had this same discuusion with my gaming group until i spotted this.

if you read the tyranid points values page 2 it lists

Massive scything talons (two or more pairs) (Trygon and Trygon Prime)

so it listed as a single weapon not 3 weapons.

so think you only get the +1 attack for it.


Discounted similarly to Lightning Claws, which have a similar rule as well (difference being the lightning claws say you get an extra attack with "them" as opposed to scything talons which say "this weapon". If you have two lightning claws, you make one extra attack with them. For each pair of scything talons you possess, you make an extra attack due to the wording of "make an additional attack with this weapon." You have 3 weapons that each say that.
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard






Palm Beach, FL

Tower wrote:
But if those rules apply every time you fight, and you don't actually need to use the weapon, I don't see why you would read the rules as applying three separate times. You would just read them once, and get one extra attack.

But on the other hand I don't understand why any models would have three sets of 30 pt scything talons if they could only ever get an extra one attack from them.


You actually get all three for 60 points total, you don't have to buy them individually. I'm in the camp that the Trygon gets only 1 bonus attack, no matter how you allocate the attacks among the identical weapons.
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




i would love that to be right as i am a nid player , for now i am playing it as +1 attack only

Becasue with the lightning claws the model has the option to buy the weapon twice so you have 2 weapons purchased.
it the same argument with chainswords and even deffclaws, you purchase the weapon more then once to get bonus.

But With the trygon/prime you are only purchasing a single weapon from the weapons page which happens to be described as 3 weapons.

i doubt we will have a true anwser though until they release an FAQ as it is not written very well.

   
Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




You are purchasing 3 weapons, but are given one option and one price for all 3 - same as with paying one price for 2 lightning claws (which again, gives a discount for the second as you're just buying an extra attack). There is literally no reason for it to say that the Trygon has 3 [b]pairs[\b] of scything talons if you just simply attack with "Scything Talons." There is no weapon that is called "Massive Scything Talons (two or more pairs)." You attack with one pair of them, and read the description and think about how you have 3 pairs total.

I thought it was +1 attack until I literally just read the rule again today and it's fairly plain now that I did more than just glance at it.

I understand the hesitancy to play it this way and respect that, but after reading it again, we know that it possesses 3 of the weapon profile on its page, it's a pretty solid argument for 3 extra attacks. Or find the profile for "Massive Scything Talons (two or more pairs)"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/19 18:49:02


 
   
Made in fi
Mindless Spore Mine





Kaarina, Finland

Just a side note, I am loving the discussion this thread has sparked!
Also I respect all sides of the argument as the rule is very difficult to interpret "correctly." Personally I am one for the +3 attack camp.
Because I see them as three weapons that all have a conditional special requirement that is met in all three cases, so there for the rule comes to play three times with each weapon.
This is ofcourse how the rule is RAW, but given the Trygon already has 6 attacks base, this would pump it to a whopping 9 attacks that seems very unfair. Given it's other stats and point cost, so the RAI may be different.
We'll just have to wait and see what the official FAQ says, when it finally drops.
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




dont forget the mawloc

8 base attacks, if done as +3 attack that 11 attacks!

to me that too powerful.

At end of day play with the rules that your gaming group feels comfortable with and hopefuly not to long for an FAQ
   
Made in fi
Mindless Spore Mine





Kaarina, Finland

pottsye wrote:
dont forget the mawloc

8 base attacks, if done as +3 attack that 11 attacks!

to me that too powerful.

At end of day play with the rules that your gaming group feels comfortable with and hopefuly not to long for an FAQ


This is also true, though the Mawloc has no shooting capabilities and it has 2 different weapons that it needs to attack with, so in the end it still does "only" 9 attacks with the talons, that are way weaker than the Massive counterparts, so I believe that is meant for it to balance out a bit.
Still pumping an Attack characteristic to 11 is massive, no matter how you look at it.

Oh and Mawlocs WS is 1 worse than the Trygons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/19 20:47:46


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Anacortes

I read it as if you have more than one pair, you get an additional attack. That's it . One additional attack. Otherwise it
Would say and plus 1 for each additional pair.

In a dog eat dog be a cat. 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






Lungpickle wrote:
I read it as if you have more than one pair, you get an additional attack. That's it . One additional attack. Otherwise it
Would say and plus 1 for each additional pair.


It does. It says "with this weapon".


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club






Los Angeles, CA

 Lance845 wrote:
Lungpickle wrote:
I read it as if you have more than one pair, you get an additional attack. That's it . One additional attack. Otherwise it
Would say and plus 1 for each additional pair.


It does. It says "with this weapon".


No, 'with this weapon' means you have to use that weapon to make the bonus attack(s), it doesn't imply anything else.


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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





I think this is going to require a FAQ. I think out can reasonably be read as either +1 attack for each pair of talons so long as you have more than one, or as + a single attack so long as you have more than pair of talons.

I prefer to play these situations in the manner least beneficial to me, that way I can't be disappointed and am currently playing my Trygons as 6 attacks + 1 tail attack (or 7 attacks for the Prime, but I'm not sold on the need for the Prime yet).

Even at 6 attacks Trygons are still a rock solid unit. The tunnel alone + the number of wounds it can tank for things like Swarmy are worth the cost, and Mr. Gian Snake Monster still hits hard. Just don't throw him into hordes of Guard or Orcs and he will do fine.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





 yakface wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Lungpickle wrote:
I read it as if you have more than one pair, you get an additional attack. That's it . One additional attack. Otherwise it
Would say and plus 1 for each additional pair.


It does. It says "with this weapon".


No, 'with this weapon' means you have to use that weapon to make the bonus attack(s), it doesn't imply anything else.


I don't see how that's relevant to the number of extra attacks.

I think the RAW is quite clear; you'd get an extra attack for each pair of scything talons used.

Let's imagine for a second that the weapon profile was almost exactly the same, except it was a gun:

Massive Scything Talon<guns> <12"> <Assault 3> User -3 D6 You can reroll hits of 1 when <firing> this weapon. If the bearer has more than one pair of Massive Scything Talon<guns> it can <t>ake 1 additional <shot> with this weapon each time it <shoots>.

There would be no discussion whatsoever about whether or not a unit with 3 pairs could fire all 3 and get 3 extra shots total.

This scenario just seems weird because it's a melee weapon and it feels counter-intuitive to attack with three copies of the same weapon to proc a bonus three times.

That said, I'm not comfortable assuming the RAW is the same as the RAI here, so I'll only be taking one bonus until it's FAQed.
   
Made in au
Infiltrating Broodlord





Yeah I am seeing RAW that it is just a flat +1 attack.

But I would also say the units would have too many attacks if it was +1 each pair

I say this as a Tyranid player
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






Look at each weapon I.e. each pair. Lets call them pair a b and c

First pair a: qualifier - if you have more than one pair... Has 3, see b and c. Check. Effect: than +1a with this weapon. I.e. +1a that must be made with pair a.

Next pair b: qualifier - if you have more than one pair... Has 3, see a and c. Check. Effect: than +1a with this weapon. I.e. +1a that must be made with pair b.

Last pair c: qualifier - if you have more than one pair... Has 3, see b and a. Check. Effect: than +1a with this weapon. I.e. +1a that must be made with pair c.


Each pair is its own weapon with the same rule. When a huge tyrant Buys deathspitters x2 its not 2 guns that shoot 3 times its 2 guns that shoot 3 times EACH.

Just because you buy 2 or 3 pairs together does not mean their weapon profiles combine.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle




It reads similarly to Vanguard Vets that take two chainswords (don't judge me). Each weapon uses a different attack, both weapons give a bonus attack.

The only difference appears to be the scything talons querying for another pair before giving the bonus.
   
Made in fi
Mindless Spore Mine





Kaarina, Finland

PoorGravitasHandling wrote:
It reads similarly to Vanguard Vets that take two chainswords (don't judge me). Each weapon uses a different attack, both weapons give a bonus attack.

The only difference appears to be the scything talons querying for another pair before giving the bonus.


I believe this indeed is the factor that is throwing people off the most. The requirement for 2 or more pairs, if it was worded better there would be no question about this.

For example the rules for a Dread klaw on the Ork Deff Dread states: "Each time the bearer fights, it can make 1 additional attack with each dread klaw it is equipped with."
If this was taken in to account with the MST and their ruling would be: "Each time the bearer fights, it can make 1 additional attack with each pair of Massive scything talons, if it is equipped with two or more pairs."
Given RAI is actually meant to be +3 attacks.

Then this whole post wouldn't have to exist...
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Hey

I popped down to game workshop HQ Warhammer world on my lunch break to buy a new model and while I was there I asked one of the GW guys who was teaching people how to play how the rule worked

He said it was +1 attack per weapon.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 yakface wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Lungpickle wrote:
I read it as if you have more than one pair, you get an additional attack. That's it . One additional attack. Otherwise it
Would say and plus 1 for each additional pair.


It does. It says "with this weapon".


No, 'with this weapon' means you have to use that weapon to make the bonus attack(s), it doesn't imply anything else.



This is true, and because you can split your attacks, you have to say your using each pair during your attacks.
   
 
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