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hello, i just played my 5th match in 8th edition.... sure this edition play smoother than 7th, less waste of time but... i noticed that heavy based infantry armies have great advantages, in particular the ones who can spam cheap models, like guard tyr and demons (tz in this case with 2pt brimstones). I guess this will be the edition of massed bulge of infantry, less and less (often overcostly) MC easily targetables, difficult to hide with the new cover rules, i like infantry based armies but in high competitive enviroments i feel this think will be really abused, for example tz demons can field also with a single detachment at least 180-200 brimstone very very easy, models which save at 4++ and cost nothing, and worse have room still for plenty of things, guards is the same, tyr as well. Morale is not a real issue guards tyr and orks are virtually immune, demons play so much cheap troops they really dont care to take 6-7-8 more wounds for battle shock. Big models usually do a few and die quick, i saw Magnus (probably the most durable MC in whole 8th ed) die in 1 turn, disappointing, without considering the stupid rule about ruins 2nd floor where MC cant attack cause their base will be always more than 1" from infantry, so funny look at a trygon watching 10 cultist holding an obj at 2nd floor and can do just nothing. What you think about this, tysm.

I can envision those cultist just blowing raspberries and its funny.

im not finding tacticals to be all that effective but iv only gotten like 5 games in. it feels like a very heavy and special weapons based game now. been poping rhinos and dreads left and right with 4 lascanons perched on a pear tree but otherwise my tacticals with bolters dont do much especially against death guard. mind you 5 games isnt remotely enough for me to make any real consensus.

disappointed with my TFC though whichs makes me sad pandas. maybe if i fight more whimpy xenos or guardsmen.

Meh. Look at the new mechanics of the game for guides on how to deal with infantry spam.

For example, charge large blobs with vehicles (like Rhinos.) Not only does this stop the blob cold, it interferes with the movement of everything behind it. When you are ready to shoot at the blob, use fall back to free them up as a target.

Blobs of infantry units are not always good vehicle killers, so this can be very effective. The other thing you can do (if you have enough vehicles) is form a protective wall in front of your troops, and make them walk around it. 4 Rhinos lined up end to end is pretty wide on most table tops.

the real problem is not just the blobs of infantry but they cost so few, so you can play tons of other stuff, enough to deal with veichles and/or MC, 200 brimstone cost just 400pts 1/5 of a 2000pts army, you are aware how many things i can still put into my list? exalted/chariots to deal with veichles, other kind of infantry (demonettes/seekers) for quick hard hitting assault, terminators to wreak havocs to anything in range....Dp/heralds/exalted sorcerer for pisonic, im sure when some large tournament lists will be public we will have a tragic confirmation of how this edition will be at least in competitive.

Blobs of infantry units are not always good vehicle killers, so this can be very effective. The other thing you can do (if you have enough vehicles) is form a protective wall in front of your troops, and make them walk around it. 4 Rhinos lined up end to end is pretty wide on most table tops.

then when you find a list which play tons of cheap units with keyword fly you figure or with laser/plasma/heavy fire spam like IG who kill rhinos pretty quick, that wont work.

To be honest, I really like that the basic guys are actually good in this edition. It's nice to finally have guardsmen that can actually pull their weight, unlike last edition when they were something wraithknights occasionally had to clean off their feet.

 blackmage wrote:
the real problem is not just the blobs of infantry but they cost so few, so you can play tons of other stuff, enough to deal with veichles and/or MC, 200 brimstone cost just 400pts 1/5 of a 2000pts army, you are aware how many things i can still put into my list? exalted/chariots to deal with veichles, other kind of infantry (demonettes/seekers) for quick hard hitting assault, terminators to wreak havocs to anything in range....Dp/heralds/exalted sorcerer for pisonic, im sure when some large tournament lists will be public we will have a tragic confirmation of how this edition will be at least in competitive.

Blobs of infantry units are not always good vehicle killers, so this can be very effective. The other thing you can do (if you have enough vehicles) is form a protective wall in front of your troops, and make them walk around it. 4 Rhinos lined up end to end is pretty wide on most table tops.

then when you find a list which play tons of cheap units with keyword fly you figure or with laser/plasma/heavy fire spam like IG who kill rhinos pretty quick, that wont work.

Again, meh.

Yes, there are squads with lots of plasma. No, they are not going to kill 4 Rhinos before they can assault. Or a squad of Raptors whose job it is to deep strike and soften them up for the Berzerkers to finish.

Large blobs just take up too much space on the table to be as OP as people are making them out to be.

If infantry comes to dominate the meta then I'll have fun with my Armour list. I do like turning up with a counter-meta list.

Been playing infantry heavy lists almost ever since the leaks and honestly, the Schrödingers Conscripts is a tired lie that's basically a meme at this point. Apparently they have games with 200 lasgun shots, get back into the fight and fix bayonets! Orders all at the same time, while being some how immortal with their 5+ save.

Here's some tips.
1. Charge.
2. Charge.
3. Charge.

Pick a throwaway unit and multicharge the infantry blobs and/or consolidate into them. Yes they can disengage but even with GBItF their firepower is extremely diminished. The artillery is legit scary though.

Infantry SHOULD dominate Warhammer40k. Monster, heroes, vehicles, all should be support units for the infantry of all types: Hordes, Elites, Heavy support, etc...

AT LAST thats the case. So I'm all aboard.

Good. That's what I think.

Think of it like a red army/WWI human wave attack. Usually the generals have no delusions about the ineffectiveness of such attacks in terms of breaking through the enemy and destroying them. The point of the attack is to pin your enemy so your shock troops/armor can penetrate elsewhere without fear of counterattack.

Or you can use them as part of an elastic defense like the Germans in WWI/WWII. You know scattered infantry won't stop the enemy attack, but they will occupy it. They slow the attack down while your real forces in the back hammer it with artillery and wait to counterattack.

I love how this weakens skew lists. All vehicle lists are hyper vulnerable to being swamped by infantry. Don't like it? Support your armor like armor has always needed to be supported. That or suffer the fate of unsupported tank columns advancing into Finland!

Vehicles with an effective "Fly" rule which lets them fire while in close combat might circumvent this. Baneblade variant or Imperial Knight skew lists might be strong, but they seem to be costed very high to account for this.

Infantry skew lists will have to either ignore enemy vehicles, or put anti-vehicle weapons in the hands of low durability models. Designated vehicle tarpits (transports, sydonian dragoons) make ignoring vehicles a costly choice.

It should be a fun edition.

A 50 wound blob that is immune to morale should not be under 200 points.

 Marmatag wrote:
A 50 wound blob that is immune to morale should not be under 200 points.

This, coupled with orders, is the biggest problem at their current price; if they weren't immune to Morale, you could wipe half the squad and have the other have run - as it should be.

Its kinda why i wished they would of just made unit purchasing in blocks with a possible scaling costs

besides its odd when units are in odd numbers. for things like marines its weird since i almost never hear about like a 7 man unit of tactical marines

also odd thing about that is space marine dev squad cherub is counted as a model so screws with transports. feth.

Don't assume that infantry blobs aren't paid for, they should be at least as powerful as a superheavy tank, considering that they cost about the same.

Flamers are the best they've been in over a decade.

Use them.

To me its nice that you may actually see armies with... actual cheap guys in it... instead of everyone spamming special forces.

Powerful? I dunno. Certainly it's annoying that a blob of 50 conscripts can be basically immune to battle shock, fall back and shoot (or charge). Not to mention it's 50 guys. 50, with all the issues that presents with slow gameplay and tedious, really tedious, dice rolling just for them to do 2 wounds to my space marines with 100 shots. Annoying yeah, I'm not sure they're as powerful as some suggest though after having played against them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
Infantry SHOULD dominate Warhammer40k. Monster, heroes, vehicles, all should be support units for the infantry of all types: Hordes, Elites, Heavy support, etc...

AT LAST thats the case. So I'm all aboard.

I'd agree if it was something universal to infantry in general. It's really just the super cheap bubble wraps that finally have a place though, not infantry in general. If anything with the way AP works now, the mobile firepower of everything else, the lack of LoS blocking terrain in general, and the high cost of transports mid tier infantry on foot are actually at least no better than before - maybe worse.

Okay but:

A) You also need to factor the price of the commanders and commissars needed to support the blob. Probably 1 commander and 1 commissar for every 2 units. So your 150 pt blob is really more like a 180 pt blob.

B) Do you really want to form up into 50 model blobs? It only takes 1 unit to drive into the gap between them and tie up 100 models in close combat. Of that 100, only about 20 will probably be in range to retaliate in CC.

C) Bring snipers to take out the commissars. If you don't get snipers, ok you should probably be forgiven for being angry.

Not sure how an infantry squad-based skirmish game can suffer from a problem with 'infantry spam'.

Infantry is what 40k should be all about. Like an earlier post said, heavy support, transports, monsters, etc. are all supporting units to the infantry.

The game is finally doing what it is supposed to do in my mind and I am enjoying it. Horde armies actually look like armies. Heck, armies actually look like armies!

dosmill wrote:
Not sure how an infantry squad-based skirmish game can suffer from a problem with 'infantry spam'.

Because there is a point where it blows up way past a 'skirmish game'.

If at any point the game allows rolling 200 dice for a single unit that's less than 10% of your army, and the slightly laborious combat system makes you trim that down by 66% for each set of three die rolls, the designers have done something wrong and painful for both players. Have it just do a mortal wound for every 10 models, or just lower the unit size, because with that sample set you can just start ignoring the dice and applying statistics to save time. (And yes, I know the actual result is somewhere between 7 and 8, but the owning player should be punished for inflicting that on the table)


Happily, the tyranid and ork units aren't quite as bad as the conscripts and their abuses (nor do they have the army to support that sort of cheese with overwhelming firepower.

Voss wrote:

dosmill wrote:
Not sure how an infantry squad-based skirmish game can suffer from a problem with 'infantry spam'.

Because there is a point where it blows up way past a 'skirmish game'.

If at any point the game allows rolling 200 dice for a single unit that's less than 10% of your army, and the slightly laborious combat system makes you trim that down by 66% for each set of three die rolls, the designers have done something wrong and painful for both players. Have it just do a mortal wound for every 10 models, or just lower the unit size, because with that sample set you can just start ignoring the dice and applying statistics to save time. (And yes, I know the actual result is somewhere between 7 and 8, but the owning player should be punished for inflicting that on the table)


Happily, the tyranid and ork units aren't quite as bad as the conscripts and their abuses (nor do they have the army to support that sort of cheese with overwhelming firepower.

Yeah I feel like any time you are rolling 50+ dice for a single unit your opponent should be able to demand a rounded down mathematical expected value insta-roll.

50 conscripts firing 2 shots apiece? You get 33 hits.
You get to re-roll 1s? You get 38 hits.
You get to re-roll all misses? You get 55 hits, and the to-wound rolls will also get insta rolled.

Depends on the army, really. If you want the opposite style of play AdMech does really well with the vast majority of their points invested in Kastellans and Onagers with 1-2 Ranger squads for sniping and some Vanguard to protect the mechs.

steerpike92 wrote:

Voss wrote:

dosmill wrote:
Not sure how an infantry squad-based skirmish game can suffer from a problem with 'infantry spam'.

Because there is a point where it blows up way past a 'skirmish game'.

If at any point the game allows rolling 200 dice for a single unit that's less than 10% of your army, and the slightly laborious combat system makes you trim that down by 66% for each set of three die rolls, the designers have done something wrong and painful for both players. Have it just do a mortal wound for every 10 models, or just lower the unit size, because with that sample set you can just start ignoring the dice and applying statistics to save time. (And yes, I know the actual result is somewhere between 7 and 8, but the owning player should be punished for inflicting that on the table)


Happily, the tyranid and ork units aren't quite as bad as the conscripts and their abuses (nor do they have the army to support that sort of cheese with overwhelming firepower.

Yeah I feel like any time you are rolling 50+ dice for a single unit your opponent should be able to demand a rounded down mathematical expected value insta-roll.

50 conscripts firing 2 shots apiece? You get 33 hits.
You get to re-roll 1s? You get 38 hits.
You get to re-roll all misses? You get 55 hits, and the to-wound rolls will also get insta rolled.

There are other problems with bloat as well though. I remember one regular opponent who would bring a green tide to tournaments, take his time deploying and moving his models, and win on time with a horde of models, sitting on all objectives, ON TURN TWO.

 carldooley wrote:
[
There are other problems with bloat as well though. I remember one regular opponent who would bring a green tide to tournaments, take his time deploying and moving his models, and win on time with a horde of models, sitting on all objectives, ON TURN TWO.

Have tournaments ever used chess clocks?

steerpike92 wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
[
There are other problems with bloat as well though. I remember one regular opponent who would bring a green tide to tournaments, take his time deploying and moving his models, and win on time with a horde of models, sitting on all objectives, ON TURN TWO.

Have tournaments ever used timed chess rules?

Not any 40k tournament that I have ever been to. Only WMH.

Most armies have access to snipers. use them, space Marines have scout snipers, who should be able to put a comissar down reasonably fast.


Also how common are conscript horde armies going to be anyway, that's a LOT of minis to buy, assmble and paint.

I played the green tide with orks for years. I had like a 70% win rate with them until tournaments. Most tournaments gave like 2.5 hours for the game and got to about turn 4; if the game would have ran longer, I'd have handily won but often lost by a couple CP's instead.

 Trickstick wrote:
If infantry comes to dominate the meta then I'll have fun with my Armour list. I do like turning up with a counter-meta list.

depend by the rest of list, infantry army will bring, Obj are taken by number 1 single model hardly can get a obj from a large infantry blob, if that blob is supported by decent anti tank then,,, im not sure would be that easy.

steerpike92 wrote:
Have tournaments ever used chess clocks?

One problem with 40k chess clocks is that you can take actions during the opponent's turn, so you could be contributing to their time too. If someone is slow playing you really need a judge to decide how to proceed. I think they should be strict on slow play as it is just spoiling the game.

That said, 8th has removed a lot of the main causes of slow play. Removal of blasts has gotten rid of a long winded shooting mechanic and the need for accurate coherency measuring, speeding horde movement considerably. Now you can just push your huge blobs forward in far less time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 blackmage wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
If infantry comes to dominate the meta then I'll have fun with my Armour list. I do like turning up with a counter-meta list.

depend by the rest of list, infantry army will bring, Obj are taken by number 1 single model hardly can get a obj from a large infantry blob, if that blob is supported by decent anti tank then,,, im not sure would be that easy.

The Armoured Battle Group has always been pretty horrible at winning objectives. I'm thinking a couple of armoured fist squads would be halfway decent at it if used at the right time.