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I've been toying with buying a nid force and the nidzilla psychic choir seems like a fun list.  No other army can use the moral rules as a weapon, which intrigues me.  However, it seems like 1500 is the sweet spot for this type of list.  Unfortunately, there's few tournaments around here at 1500 and most people I play in pick up games like to play 1850-2000.  Is there a way to make it work above 1500?   Why not maximize the advantage the list has with shooting?

Here's a rough list:

HQ
Tyrant: wings, twin scytals, miasma, toxin sacs, implant attack, flesh hooks, PS
Tyrant: VC, devourers, enhanced senses, toxin sacs, PS, 2x guard

Elite
dakka fex
dakka fex
dakka fex

Troops
16 termagants
16 termagants
16 termagants
16 termagants
16 termagants
16 termagants

FA
Ravener: rending
Ravener: rending
Ravener: rending

HS
Zoes: 3x Synapse and PS
gunfex
gunfex

The idea is to have a swarmy shooty list that is backed up with choir and the shooting from the MCs.  I understand why this list won't work as well, since now there's targets for all the basic weaponry but I think the termagants can still work well when backed up by psychic scream. 

NEW:  I've taken 3 ravenors and went from 20 termagants per brood to 16.  

thoughts?

I like it better than any other list I've seen with the big bugs. The termies are about 9000 times better than genestealers vs. a large number of lists.

From the perspective of things that can be a huge problem for the bug list (at least that I have seen) - e.g. drop pods, solid shootie marines, infiltrating hordes of power armor, and so on - I think 120 termies is great. You can limit infiltration drastically by forcing all of it to be outside of your deployment zone. Against drop pods you have 1-2 turns to carpet the board in little bugs and force all of his stuff to pop on the board 18"+ away from your big bugs. And the shooting is honestly not insignificant with that many dice and living ammo.

Great idea.

I'd liek to fit in raveners as well so I may drop the termies down to 16 and add 3 raveners. The list loses a bit of the shooty but then the winged tyrant gains some close combat support.

And even more importantly, they'd give you three scoring units. Single Raveners are great.

I'm pretty sure Raveners can't score for some reason. I'd doublecheck the codex to be sure though. I'm no Nid player, but I did play a couple games with my buddy's nids and it seems very familiar that raveners have a special rule preventing them from holding quarters.

maybe I'm thinking biovores though.

biovores, lictors, rippers are non scoring i think. dunno for sure though...

Biovores and ravaners both score. Only rippers and lictors are non scoring.

Posted By Longshot on 06/06/2006 7:24 AM
I like it better than any other list I've seen with the big bugs. The termies are about 9000 times better than genestealers vs. a large number of lists.

From the perspective of things that can be a huge problem for the bug list (at least that I have seen) - e.g. drop pods, solid shootie marines, infiltrating hordes of power armor, and so on - I think 120 termies is great. You can limit infiltration drastically by forcing all of it to be outside of your deployment zone. Against drop pods you have 1-2 turns to carpet the board in little bugs and force all of his stuff to pop on the board 18"+ away from your big bugs. And the shooting is honestly not insignificant with that many dice and living ammo.

Great idea.

I'd have to disagree. Maybe a squad or two for the above reasons would be nice. But you have to look at the overall list. What do you have? A craplot of anti-infantry shooting and some anti-vehicle. Note, unlike most other lists, anti-vehicle shooting in Nids =/= anti heavy infantry/MC shooting. What do you have that can take these targets? You know, termies, MCs, Oblits and such? Rending. And some close combat from the fexs and winged tyrant. But against other zilla lists, and termie or oblit heavy lists, you need more than the minimal close combat offered by the fexes, and even the winged tyrant. Stealers and raveners provide this punch. However, I do think that, especially at 2000 points, some tie up units would be very good. I would probably go with 1 or 2 units of scuttling spinegaunts, as the anti-skimmer is amply taken care of by the rest of the list and you don't need the S4. If you don't have/don't want to buy spinegaunts, then termies are fine. Then include the raveners. Then include at least one or two small squads of stealers for countercharge. Or if you really just hate stealers, then bulk up the raveners a bit, though you lose their one model fire wasting ability in exchange.

Thanks for all the comments guys.

Single Raveners are great.

Yeah I think they are a must have so I've edited the list. There is a significant loss in gaunts (120 gaunts in a nidzilla list seemed kinda cool) but I gain some rending and scoring ability. Plus it makes the list cost less money and is easier to paint.

What do you have that can take these targets? You know, termies, MCs, Oblits and such? Rending.

Rending is all well and good and stealers are excellent counter charge for the TMCs. However the targets you've mentioned are mostly shooty or backed up by shooting, so it will take a large number of stealers to be an effective counter to them. I just don't see that as a sensible option with psychic choir. Instead, with my current list I can either focus tons of fire on them, isolate them with gaunts and deal with them later or ignore if need be.

The nice thing with the gaunts is that they don't have to be in close combat to be effective, especially with the psychic screams and 6 shooty TMCs.

I'm not against stealers but any that I add will take away the horde effect of the gaunts. I do take them it would be 2 small squads for counter charge and nothing more.

I would probably go with 1 or 2 units of scuttling spinegaunts, as the anti-skimmer is amply taken care of by the rest of the list and you don't need the S4.

Well, the S4 does make them a more efficient shooter and makes better use of the psychic choir. Normal nid tactics would dictate that shooting efficiency is nigh ignorable on a gaunt, as you'd rather they are in close combat tying units up. However getting the gaunts into cc isn't always a good idea with so much shootiness and the psychic choir. 16 termagaunts will kill 2 MEqs on average, about half a marine more then equal points in spinagaunts. That's not much until you figure that the basic 8 man tactical squad will require 2 casualties to force a moral test. Also consider that the 16 termagaunts will typically force a save on a 6 man las/plas squad. None of the above is huge by any means but we are talking about 1 of 6, 96 point units.

It can be argued that it still isn't worth taking termies over spinagaunts, as you give up quite a few wounds for only a slight return. However I'm more inclined to stick with the shooting theme and also use a unit that few people use. Plus they are easier to find through trade/ebay.

It may not be the absolute optimal build for the psychic choir, but it is certainly different and likely will be fun. I would definitely give it a try as it wouldn't be too hard to reconfigure the army if it doesn't work for you (just add in some stealers and spinegaunts really).

Funny, besides this list having 80 gaunts more than mine it is otherwise exactly the same as my 1500pts list.

Though lately I have been running some stealers.
Though I was able to go with warp blast rather than synapse since I don't have so many gaunts.

You might still have trouble with synapse with that amount of gaunts though, you might want to take 2 stealer squads just to make you less synapse dependent.

Those zoans are not too hard to take down really. Though I suppose you could hide them behind the MCs since your not shooting with them.

Actually, I was thinking about the Synapse problem too.

I think at 2,000 pts. you gotta go for 3 Tyrant Guards just to be sure.

Funny, besides this list having 80 gaunts more than mine it is otherwise exactly the same as my 1500pts list.

Well, your list and batreps are a big part of why I'm interested in nids again. I just figured that with an extra 500 points to play with, I might be able to field a competative nidzilla force that was also a bit of a horde. Synapse may very well be an issue but I'd like to try to keep the horde and see how things go.

I think at 2,000 pts. you gotta go for 3 Tyrant Guards just to be sure.

As is, I think I have the points leftover for another guard (my dex is at home) so consider that included. If not I'll lose some gaunts.

Admitedly, I'm a tyranid noob but I wasn't overly worried about synapse. I can still make use of lurking gaunts if all the zoans drop, which I figure is likely since I can't hide them and still get full use out of the screams. That is also assuming there are any gaunts left by the time I lose synapse.

It may not be the absolute optimal build for the psychic choir, but it is certainly different and likely will be fun.

Thanks, I think it will be pretty fun. Out of curiosity, what do you think would be an optimal build at 2000?

And another question for anyone who cares to answer. What are your thoughts on using a few without-end gaunts? This wouldn't be something I'd stick with but it would save me some money in getting the army up and running. It wouldn't be optimal but I figure two units that can keep coming back to defend the gunfexes might not be so bad.

Without-end gaunts are pretty expensive, and they're only good if your opponent actually bothers to shoot them. That being said, I think that a Psychic Choir list would be the *only* good time to use them, as you can use target priority to force your opponent to eliminate the last few gaunts from a unit, so that it comes back on. With fleet, it's not so bad that they have to run up the board again. And as you said, the ones coming on can guard the gunfexes from fast assault units, or at least countercharge and help them out.

But I would make *all* of your gaunts without-end, in that case. And make sure to run them up in waves.

I don't see why you wouldn't run the Zoans up behind an MC wall of Dakkafexes and HT to block LOS. You want to concentrate your Screams anyways, don't you? And the Dakkafex range is the same as the Scream. Take some rippers to run in front of the MCs as anti-assault.