Switch Theme:

Is Morale Working Backwards?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Sioux Falls, SD

So, looking at what armies are notionally immune to morale*, doesn't it seem like the high model count/blob armies don't really need to worry about Morale?

*Tyranids in Synapse Range
*Orks in blobs near other Ork blobs
*Guard with Commissars nearby

Since many of those abilities are provided by characters, counteracting them is incredibly difficult. Especially for armies without the ability to snipe a Character.

5250 pts
3850 pts
Deathwatch: 1500 pts
Imperial Knights: 375 pts
30K 2500 pts 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

They aren't inmune to morale.

7th ATSKNF was inmunity to morale, because it negates basically is effects without a counterplay for your opponent. They just did it as a rule in the unit.

The Mob rule, the Synapse rule, are a ingame effect that has is own counterplays, so the game has ingame-decision affecting the outcome of the battle, and tactics. Tactics about adapting to your opponent and what they do, instead of just doing your pre-defined strategy one time and another, and another.

Those aren't the problem. The problem is with the Commisar+Conscripts combo. Please, don't make this a general Horde or morale problem, is just with that specific combo.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/23 19:38:22


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




I don't know but it does feel like a bit of a risk taking larger than min units of deathguard given there are plenty of LD reducing effects out available and bypassing their resilience through morale is quite scary.
   
Made in gb
Death-Dealing Devastator




It's not really much different to the Necron's Res Rolls rule now. It just means that you need to really concentrate your shooting on single units rather then hoping to shake up multiple units like we could in 8th.

If you go with a full Ork Boyz unit (30) once you hit 15 kills your guaranteed 1-6 extra casualties. Each extra boy you take out after that mean 2 more will run (eg 16 kills = LD 14 = 3 run min, 17 kills = LD 13 = 5 run min).

It's the same with nids, if you can make a synapse gap, hammer those units left exposed and with Necrons, hammer a unit until it's toast (after moral) as they can't get back up if their unit is gone.

Granted the conscripts & commissar are going to be a pain for nids, orks and Chaos as they're the only ones who can't "faction" in a proper sniper unit yet
   
Made in au
Hissing Hybrid Metamorph





'Straya... Mate.

Morale isn't something I have been aiming to trigger, it's more like a potential bonus to kill more dudes.

Maybe look at more deep striking from the back, if that is where they are keeping their characters, hope they leave 9 inches behind them after moving.

 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




 casvalremdeikun wrote:
So, looking at what armies are notionally immune to morale*, doesn't it seem like the high model count/blob armies don't really need to worry about Morale?

*Tyranids in Synapse Range
*Orks in blobs near other Ork blobs
*Guard with Commissars nearby

Since many of those abilities are provided by characters, counteracting them is incredibly difficult. Especially for armies without the ability to snipe a Character.


Yes, models with garbage troops are more immune to morale than elite troops. It is weird.

That said, snipers are the answer to nothing.

Tyranids: Of the synapse creatures, only the Prime is a character, so it's the only one that can hide, and the way the army functions doesn't really support that well in any case. The little gribblies want to sweep forward and do things, and the big things don't care regardless, but walling off their massive block of shooting units generally isn't a functional tyranid strategy.

Orks: you can theoretically snipe the warboss, and get rid of his mitigation, but the core of their morale mechanic is the big units, and there are much better things to take than snipers for getting rid of those.

Guard- you can entirely hide commissars and still hand out their benefits. Blocking LOS is really easy with buildings, ruins or, if there are none, with tanks. Without LOS, snipers aren't going to help.

And with significantly smaller unit sizes (and worse saves), orks and nids are far less problematic in terms of morale anyway.

Whether or not your army can bring snipers is pretty irrelevant, it isn't a solution to the morale problem.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

Voss wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
So, looking at what armies are notionally immune to morale*, doesn't it seem like the high model count/blob armies don't really need to worry about Morale?

*Tyranids in Synapse Range
*Orks in blobs near other Ork blobs
*Guard with Commissars nearby

Since many of those abilities are provided by characters, counteracting them is incredibly difficult. Especially for armies without the ability to snipe a Character.


Yes, models with garbage troops are more immune to morale than elite troops. It is weird.

That said, snipers are the answer to nothing.

Tyranids: Of the synapse creatures, only the Prime is a character, so it's the only one that can hide, and the way the army functions doesn't really support that well in any case. The little gribblies want to sweep forward and do things, and the big things don't care regardless, but walling off their massive block of shooting units generally isn't a functional tyranid strategy.

Orks: you can theoretically snipe the warboss, and get rid of his mitigation, but the core of their morale mechanic is the big units, and there are much better things to take than snipers for getting rid of those.

Guard- you can entirely hide commissars and still hand out their benefits. Blocking LOS is really easy with buildings, ruins or, if there are none, with tanks. Without LOS, snipers aren't going to help.

And with significantly smaller unit sizes (and worse saves), orks and nids are far less problematic in terms of morale anyway.

Whether or not your army can bring snipers is pretty irrelevant, it isn't a solution to the morale problem.


This is spot on. A better mechanic would have been to allow the commissar to execute as many models as he wants, to subtract 5 from the morale result rolled. It makes sense. 10 guys start to flee, you shoot 2 in the face, the rest turn around. For example, not saying this is perfect, just shocked that there is effective immunity in this case.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/23 22:08:12


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






I mean, don't forget that the restriction on targeting characters is ONLY for the shooting phase. In Melee you aren't locked into hitting the closest dude, so as long as you have a guy within 1" of the character, that model and all other models within 1" of the original model can whack the character good.

Just remember to declare the multi-charge of the unit and character so you can legally get within 1" of it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/23 22:16:49


 
   
Made in us
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Sioux Falls, SD

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I mean, don't forget that the restriction on targeting characters is ONLY for the shooting phase. In Melee you aren't locked into hitting the closest dude, so as long as you have a guy within 1" of the character, that model and all other models within 1" of the original model can whack the character good.

Just remember to declare the multi-charge of the unit and character so you can legally get within 1" of it.
How exactly does one charge a model surrounded by a unit of 20+ bodies?

5250 pts
3850 pts
Deathwatch: 1500 pts
Imperial Knights: 375 pts
30K 2500 pts 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I mean... Morale is technically working correctly as far as it's core rule is concerned...

The problem is the mechanics within those specific armies.

How I would fix IG in Spoilers.
Spoiler:

I would say Conscripts must be banned from receiving Orders. They weren't trained well enough to follow Orders.

Commissar needs a rules rework.
What if...
Aura of Discipline was REMOVED
Commissar became Ld 11
Lord Commissar became Ld 12
Commissar Yarrick became Ld13
Infantry Squads became Ld 5 (Sergeant 6)


Summary Execution becomes
"During the Morale Phase, you may execute a model in a Friendly IG Infantry unit within 6". If you do, that unit uses the Commissar's Ld Stat of their own."

This would have the effect of heavily reducing the effects of Shock without completely removing it as it currently does.


Oh, Let's bring back the idea of a Chain of Command influencing the Bravery of Troops around it.

Platoon Commander, Sergeant Kell, Sergeant Harker gain the current Aura of Discipline, but reduced to 3" instead.
This would make them Ld7, meaning that Sergeants are useful unless your Army are all Veterans. Which makes sense since they have Veteran Sergeants.
Actually, let's change this slightly...
Platoon Commander is renamed to Platoon Lieutenant
Sergeant Kell and Sergeant Harker are promoted to Lieutenant Kell and Lieutenant Harker
Veteran Sergeant from Veteran Squad becomes a Lieutenant
Now it's consistent that they are Ld7 because they are Lieutenants


Final thing to fix would be the Regimental Standard. +1 Ld doesn't really work with these rules. Changed to
"Friendly IG Infantry units within 12" subtract 1 from any Morale test they take."

Now the Regimental Standard stacks with the other rules we laid out.


Final things to fix in IG
Infantry Squads can be upto size 40
** Gains "For every 20 Guardsman, one additional guardsman may replace his lasgun with a Special Weapon."

Veterans can be upto size 30...
** Reduces"3 Veterans Special Weapons." into just 1... but
** Gains "For every 10 Veterans, one additional guardsman may replace his lasgun with a Special Weapon."
** Becomes Troop choice.


6+ = 6/36 | Reroll 1s = 7/36 | Reroll Misses = 11/36 ||||||| 5+ = 12/36 | Reroll 1s 14/36 | Reroll Misses = 20/36 ||||||| 4+ = 18/36 | Reroll 1s 21/36 | Reroll Misses = 27/36
3+ = 24/36 | Reroll 1s 28/36 | Reroll Misses = 32/36 ||||||| 2+ = 30/36 | Reroll 1s 35/36 ||||||| Highest of 2d6 = 4.47
 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






 casvalremdeikun wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
I mean, don't forget that the restriction on targeting characters is ONLY for the shooting phase. In Melee you aren't locked into hitting the closest dude, so as long as you have a guy within 1" of the character, that model and all other models within 1" of the original model can whack the character good.

Just remember to declare the multi-charge of the unit and character so you can legally get within 1" of it.
How exactly does one charge a model surrounded by a unit of 20+ bodies?


Fly. Most of those 20 guys will be in front. Fly over and charge from the rear.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear





Northern California

 Lance845 wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
I mean, don't forget that the restriction on targeting characters is ONLY for the shooting phase. In Melee you aren't locked into hitting the closest dude, so as long as you have a guy within 1" of the character, that model and all other models within 1" of the original model can whack the character good.

Just remember to declare the multi-charge of the unit and character so you can legally get within 1" of it.
How exactly does one charge a model surrounded by a unit of 20+ bodies?


Fly. Most of those 20 guys will be in front. Fly over and charge from the rear.

Alternatively, if you have 30 Hormugants, you just declare the multi-charge and use your 6 inch pile in and consolidation to wrap around the squad you carted to reach any characters. Granted, this does require you to roll well for your charge distance.

~3000 (Fully Painted)
Coming Soon!
Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





It takes 6 models to completely surround a character such that nobody can get within 1". Let's say 7 just to tighten the ranks and make it easy.

You could have 100 assault troops with 100" flying assault moves, and as long as I have those 7 models, my character can't be touched.
   
Made in gb
Emboldened Warlock




Widnes UK

ScarVet101 wrote:
It's not really much different to the Necron's Res Rolls rule now. It just means that you need to really concentrate your shooting on single units rather then hoping to shake up multiple units like we could in 8th.

If you go with a full Ork Boyz unit (30) once you hit 15 kills your guaranteed 1-6 extra casualties. Each extra boy you take out after that mean 2 more will run (eg 16 kills = LD 14 = 3 run min, 17 kills = LD 13 = 5 run min).

It's the same with nids, if you can make a synapse gap, hammer those units left exposed and with Necrons, hammer a unit until it's toast (after moral) as they can't get back up if their unit is gone.

Granted the conscripts & commissar are going to be a pain for nids, orks and Chaos as they're the only ones who can't "faction" in a proper sniper unit yet


And what happens when the boyz are next to 2 other 30 man squads and so still have ld30?

Ulthwe: 7500 points 
   
Made in us
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord




Inside Yvraine

 Lance845 wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
I mean, don't forget that the restriction on targeting characters is ONLY for the shooting phase. In Melee you aren't locked into hitting the closest dude, so as long as you have a guy within 1" of the character, that model and all other models within 1" of the original model can whack the character good.

Just remember to declare the multi-charge of the unit and character so you can legally get within 1" of it.
How exactly does one charge a model surrounded by a unit of 20+ bodies?


Fly. Most of those 20 guys will be in front. Fly over and charge from the rear.
Against bad players, maybe. Anyone worth their salt at the game is going to recognize the value of their commissars and close the gaps between it and its units.

Two conscription blobs side by side with a 3" gap for your commissars to sit in is going to play such hell with your footprints. You will basically have to charge the conscripts as well as the commissar due to the 1" rule.

So whatever flyer you're trying to use has to be small enough to fit in that 3" gap and also durable enough to survive the 100+ over watch shots.

- - -

I kind of wonder why summary execution wasn't just "roll d6 and subtract the result from the number of models lost in the battle shock phase". With a ld of 7 a squad would therefore have to lose on average 11 models before taking losses from battleshock. A squad that loses 20 models before morale would lose on average 8 models to BS- that's entirely reasonable for up-to 50-man squads that are only 3ppm.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/24 10:15:41


 
   
Made in ro
Longtime Dakkanaut



Moscow, Russia

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
How exactly does one charge a model surrounded by a unit of 20+ bodies?


With jump troops, necron wraiths and so on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BlaxicanX wrote:


Fly. Most of those 20 guys will be in front. Fly over and charge from the rear.
Against bad players, maybe. Anyone worth their salt at the game is going to recognize the value of their commissars and close the gaps betwee


It's not going to easy to keep the character sufficiently close to other units and at the same time keep him out of LOS!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/24 16:16:56


 
   
Made in gb
Irked Necron Immortal





Just a point, but I'd argue that it's only really conscripts in an IG army that are nominally immune to morale (due to their large squad size and lack of any noteworthy members).

Most other units do suffer from morale, even with Commissars.

The main point is that most of our units don't have much 'buffer' before casualties have to be taken from important squad members. e.g.:
- SWSs have just 3 normal guys before they start losing special weapons
- MT squads will have 3-6 members (depending on size) before they get to special weapons, but one of those will be the sergeant (who may have a plasma pistol or such).
- If you go all-out with weapons in Veteran squads, you're only looking at 5-6 men before the special/heavy weapons start to die (but again, one of those will be the sergeant).
- Infantry squads are probably the best, but even then you're only looking at 7 men before a special/heavy weapon dies.
etc.

My point is, most IG squads have at least 2-3 important models in them and also have far fewer 'buffer' models than conscripts do. So, whilst obviously preferable to losing the entire squad, having a Commissar BLAM a plasmagun or HWT (because the squad ran out of chaff) is still painful.

I think it's important to keep this in mind when discussing possible changes - as I don't want to see every other IG Infantry unit get screwed over just because Conscript morale is a problem.
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




The infantry squad/commissar interaction is just about perfect. Basically it exists to force tactical choices- go all in on shooting the squad, or deal with the idea that more than likely, the special/heavy weapon will survive until next turn.

That's fine, because it affects how and why both players are making decisions.


With conscripts on the other hand, it is way to easy for the guard player just to 'Nope' out of any tactic or solution. At which point the opposing player just has to chew through conscripts, and deal with the tyranny of statistics, with the realization that 8th edition weapons just aren't that amazing at killing large numbers.

They're tuned to do significant damage to 10 man squads, and let morale take the rest- devastator a with heavy bolters or frag missiles? With a full 10 man squad and bolters chiming in, all those dice reduce to about 6 or 7 models, perfect for a commissar to step in on an infantry squad and save the important bits. With conscripts? Doesn't matter.

The problem is purely on the conscript end. 8th Ed wounds are better than 8th Ed weapons, so those wounds are coming entirely too cheaply, unless morale is allowed to act as the balancing factor it is supposed to be, and add extra wounds.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: