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What fluff, if any, exists on what happens when Tryanids are sucked into the warp? Presumably this occurs during conflict with daemons, random warp storms, the galaxy splitting warp rift, etc.
Presumably the same thing that happens when any other mortal creature is sucked into the warp without a Gellar Field: they get torn apart by the utterly anathemaic environment.
If they get sucked into the watp while it's becalmed by the Shadow in the Warp that might be different perhaps, but i'm not sure. It's still an environment that no mortal creature is equipped to survive, whether it's storming or calm. I'm imagine it's like being plunged into a sulphur-dioxide atmosphere and being plunged into a sulphur-dioxide atmosphere in the middle of a storm.
Ynneadwraith wrote: Presumably the same thing that happens when any other mortal creature is sucked into the warp without a Gellar Field: they get torn apart by the utterly anathemaic environment.
If they get sucked into the watp while it's becalmed by the Shadow in the Warp that might be different perhaps, but i'm not sure. It's still an environment that no mortal creature is equipped to survive, whether it's storming or calm. I'm imagine it's like being plunged into a sulphur-dioxideiel atmosphere and being plunged into a sulphur-dioxide atmosphere in the middle of a storm.
Either way you're screwed.
A chunk of Hive Fleet Kraken took a nap when travelling through the Warp after being sent there by some Farseers. It's suggested that Slaanesh had a hand in ejecting the fleet from the Warp onto the Valedor system, but the fact remains that the Hive Fleet showed no ill effects what so ever from its journey.
So there is certainly precedent for Hive Ships no selling the Warp. No need for a gellar field.
Ynneadwraith wrote: Presumably the same thing that happens when any other mortal creature is sucked into the warp without a Gellar Field: they get torn apart by the utterly anathemaic environment.
If they get sucked into the watp while it's becalmed by the Shadow in the Warp that might be different perhaps, but i'm not sure. It's still an environment that no mortal creature is equipped to survive, whether it's storming or calm. I'm imagine it's like being plunged into a sulphur-dioxideiel atmosphere and being plunged into a sulphur-dioxide atmosphere in the middle of a storm.
Either way you're screwed.
A chunk of Hive Fleet Kraken took a nap when travelling through the Warp after being sent there by some Farseers. It's suggested that Slaanesh had a hand in ejecting the fleet from the Warp onto the Valedor system, but the fact remains that the Hive Fleet showed no ill effects what so ever from its journey.
So there is certainly precedent for Hive Ships no selling the Warp. No need for a gellar field.
interesting and conflicting with other stuff we know...
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote: I think it's possible that that Hive Fleet was protected as well as manoeuvred by Slaanesh.
Behemoth was destroyed by being dragged into the Warp and that hasn't popped up again.
Except it has. There are loads of Behemoth splinters, and it's never stated if they are splinters that just swam away, or if they popped out of the Warp.
Also consider that Tyranids and Genestealers both manage to survive perfectly fine on space hulks, which often have large sections not protected by Gellar Fields.
Clearly Tyranid flesh can be affected by the Warp just like anything can, but I would think that they have some sort of innate resistance to it (side effect of their shadow?) because the instances we see of warped Tyranids are always at sites of massive Daemonic infestation. I would imagine that the Warp has to force itself onto a Tyranid presence if it is strong enough to overwhelm their resistance, rather than the Warp just being lethal outright?
Who knows, but there is evidence to suggest that Tyranids can handle the Warp just fine.
Genestealers often hibernate in Space Hulks, I guess they don't hibernate in warp tainted sections ?
IIRC, long ago, tyranids travelled by the warp, like any other faction. I think it was better.
Except it has. There are loads of Behemoth splinters, and it's never stated if they are splinters that just swam away, or if they popped out of the Warp.
Also consider that Tyranids and Genestealers both manage to survive perfectly fine on space hulks, which often have large sections not protected by Gellar Fields.
Both the 5th and 7th Tyranid Codexes state that the detonation of the warp drives dragged the Tyranid ships "into oblivion". 4th edition described the core of the Tyranid fleet as being "annihilated in the resultant warp vortex". The Tyranid ships dragged into the warp by the Dominus Astra have consistently been described as being destroyed.
So can Orks. So can humans in rare cases. I imagine it depends in large part how long the stay is and how many (and of what power) Daemons are around. And perhaps how tumultuous the Warp is in that area. It's somewhat fitting for the Warp to behave in different ways depending on circumstances.
godardc wrote: Genestealers often hibernate in Space Hulks, I guess they don't hibernate in warp tainted sections ?
IIRC, long ago, tyranids travelled by the warp, like any other faction. I think it was better.
neither Tyranids or Tau travel by warp..
But with Tyranids there have been a few conflicting things suggesting they do... but traditionally they just take a nap between system
Previously the Tyranids did use the warp to travel. Then came GW's stupid narvhal retcon which was unneeded and which caused more problems by creating havoc with previous background. Previously, the Tyranids used warp travel but were protected from daemons by their sheer gestalt power. If a fleet was weak or cut off from the Hive Mind, then it could get mutated just as individual Tyranid creatures can be killed by diseases or be affected by warp powers.
Tyranid fleets exited the warp a lot further out from a system's star than most other races, and would take time to "warm up" from their hibernating state. They didn't actually drift in realspace between star systems.
Yeah, it was great.
I remember Space Marines boarding «warming up» fleets before they were totally awakened to destroy them from within, Dark Eldars trying to capture a fleet too, and failing miserably
The Dark Eldar went looking for captives to haul back to the arenas. They succeeded initially but tarried too long and started to play around. If they had stuck to quick in and out, they would have made it.
The narvhal still stands as a major change to the Tyranids that was done for no other reason than for the sake of change, and which caused all sorts of upset to the existing Tyranid background. The Tyranids have always been described as using the warp, whether it be Zoanthropes levitating or using warp fields, to the superheavy Dominatrix creature and its giant warp field or warp pulse, to the great hive ships exiting the warp far out beyond the outermost planets of a solar system. If the narvhal had simply been the ship that allowed the ships of the fleet to jump into the warp, that would have been fine. Instead whoever came up with the idea had to be a special snowflake and try to make their stamp on the background by inventing a new and entirely ridiculous form of gravity based FTL. Ridiculous because we know the strength of gravity between two objects at any given distance and therefore the narvhal's stated gravity effects are not possible, since we know also that in 40K, gravity works the way it does in RL (since planets like Terra still orbit the same way as they do in RL)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/25 13:42:46
I think I recall (I forget where) reading a BL story about a group of Tyranids who were on a space hulk and tainted by the powers of Chaos. The gaunts looked sickly and suchlike.
Iracundus wrote: Previously the Tyranids did use the warp to travel. Then came GW's stupid narvhal retcon which was unneeded and which caused more problems by creating havoc with previous background. Previously, the Tyranids used warp travel but were protected from daemons by their sheer gestalt power. If a fleet was weak or cut off from the Hive Mind, then it could get mutated just as individual Tyranid creatures can be killed by diseases or be affected by warp powers.
Tyranid fleets exited the warp a lot further out from a system's star than most other races, and would take time to "warm up" from their hibernating state. They didn't actually drift in realspace between star systems.
This. As far as i'm concerned, Narvals are just the dedicated Tyranid organism for instigating warp travel. All this gravity nonsense is just the Ad Mech's minimal understanding of warp-physics coming into play.
It's a pity to have to head-canon something so hard to actually make the briefest modicum of sense, but hey ho. Fluff-writing is hard, and i bear them no ill-will.
I have no issue with Clarkian Tech. I do have issue with Clarkian Tech hamfistedly implemented when a perfectly non-Clarkian (or at least less Clarkian) solution was not only apparent but already in effect.
Iracundus wrote: Previously the Tyranids did use the warp to travel. Then came GW's stupid narvhal retcon which was unneeded and which caused more problems by creating havoc with previous background. Previously, the Tyranids used warp travel but were protected from daemons by their sheer gestalt power. If a fleet was weak or cut off from the Hive Mind, then it could get mutated just as individual Tyranid creatures can be killed by diseases or be affected by warp powers.
Tyranid fleets exited the warp a lot further out from a system's star than most other races, and would take time to "warm up" from their hibernating state. They didn't actually drift in realspace between star systems.
This. As far as i'm concerned, Narvals are just the dedicated Tyranid organism for instigating warp travel. All this gravity nonsense is just the Ad Mech's minimal understanding of warp-physics coming into play.
It's a pity to have to head-canon something so hard to actually make the briefest modicum of sense, but hey ho. Fluff-writing is hard, and i bear them no ill-will.
You I like. Good answer. The weird gravity drive of the narwhals using the gravity of the planets they are going to defies logic.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Iracundus wrote: Previously the Tyranids did use the warp to travel. Then came GW's stupid narvhal retcon which was unneeded and which caused more problems by creating havoc with previous background. Previously, the Tyranids used warp travel but were protected from daemons by their sheer gestalt power. If a fleet was weak or cut off from the Hive Mind, then it could get mutated just as individual Tyranid creatures can be killed by diseases or be affected by warp powers.
Tyranid fleets exited the warp a lot further out from a system's star than most other races, and would take time to "warm up" from their hibernating state. They didn't actually drift in realspace between star systems.
This. As far as i'm concerned, Narvals are just the dedicated Tyranid organism for instigating warp travel. All this gravity nonsense is just the Ad Mech's minimal understanding of warp-physics coming into play.
It's a pity to have to head-canon something so hard to actually make the briefest modicum of sense, but hey ho. Fluff-writing is hard, and i bear them no ill-will.
You I like. Good answer. The weird gravity drive of the narwhals using the gravity of the planets they are going to defies logic.
Agreed. And not even in a 'wooo amazing Clarkian tech that we can never understand' way.
Just pants-on head don't understand the least bit of what they're talking about.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/26 12:27:44
I have no issue with Clarkian Tech. I do have issue with Clarkian Tech hamfistedly implemented when a perfectly non-Clarkian (or at least less Clarkian) solution was not only apparent but already in effect.
It lacks all subtlety.
Clark's law? Clarkian Tech? I'm not familiar with this. I assume it refers to Arthur C. Clark, the famed sci-fi author?
I have no issue with Clarkian Tech. I do have issue with Clarkian Tech hamfistedly implemented when a perfectly non-Clarkian (or at least less Clarkian) solution was not only apparent but already in effect.
It lacks all subtlety.
Clark's law? Clarkian Tech? I'm not familiar with this. I assume it refers to Arthur C. Clark, the famed sci-fi author?
Ah, sorry, yes it does.
Clark's quoted as saying something along the lines of 'any technology significantly more advanced than your own is indistinguishable from magic'.
Basically, one of the things it does is provide a tool scifi writers use all the time to justify things that are currently impossible like warp travel or stasis. They can state that these things are possible by unimaginably complicated technologies, that because they're so far advanced over the reader, it's pointless to explain their function anything more than superficially as it might as well be magic to you. It's where technobabble comes in, not to make you understand but to convince you that someone else understands it so it must be true in-universe.
In this case, we had one previously established Clarkian technology providing faster than light travel (warp travel). This has been fleshed out with established technobabble to the point that it feels almost realistic, and the rest is explained due to the fact that the warp is basically Clarke's Law incarnate. So complicated we can never understand it from our lowly vantage point.
Then, they scrap this idea in favour of something new and entirely without precedent within the universe of 40k, and then ham-fistedly say 'woooo gravity' in a mystical voice to try to explain it to us.
We'd already suspended our disbelief about warp travel, and now we have to suspend our disbelief again on the strength of Mr 'Woooooo Gravity' here.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/26 17:37:44
I have no issue with Clarkian Tech. I do have issue with Clarkian Tech hamfistedly implemented when a perfectly non-Clarkian (or at least less Clarkian) solution was not only apparent but already in effect.
It lacks all subtlety.
Clark's law? Clarkian Tech? I'm not familiar with this. I assume it refers to Arthur C. Clark, the famed sci-fi author?
Ah, sorry, yes it does.
Clark's quoted as saying something along the lines of 'any technology significantly more advanced than your own is indistinguishable from magic'.
Basically, one of the things it does is provide a tool scifi writers use all the time to justify things that are currently impossible like warp travel or stasis. They can state that these things are possible by unimaginably complicated technologies, that because they're so far advanced over the reader, it's pointless to explain their function anything more than superficially as it might as well be magic to you. It's where technobabble comes in, not to make you understand but to convince you that someone else understands it so it must be true in-universe.
In this case, we had one previously established Clarkian technology providing faster than light travel (warp travel). This has been fleshed out with established technobabble to the point that it feels almost realistic, and the rest is explained due to the fact that the warp is basically Clarke's Law incarnate. So complicated we can never understand it from our lowly vantage point.
Then, they scrap this idea in favour of something new and entirely without precedent within the universe of 40k, and then ham-fistedly say 'woooo gravity' in a mystical voice to try to explain it to us.
We'd already suspended our disbelief about warp travel, and now we have to suspend our disbelief again on the strength of Mr 'Woooooo Gravity' here.
I am familiar with that quote. I had not realized it was Clark who coined it though (today I learned....). I was wondering if there was something I had missed in my years since I had studied writing and was reading more speculative fiction back in my youth. What with the complaints earlier in the the thread, I thought it was more akin to what Orson Scot Card wrote about FTL travel. In his How to Write Science Fiction book, OSC was vehement that faster-than-light travel was impossible, and that you, as an author, should never include it in your stories because it wouldn't be realistic (but FTL communications are a-okay! ).
I get what you are saying about the Tyranids, and I agree. We are kind of able to understand how gravity works, and can accept the Warp as this "thing" outside our comprehension - why bother trying to ground the Tyranids in realism now all of a sudden?
Interesting about the vehemence against FTL travel, considering it's such a strong trope now.
Saying that i can see how FTL communication could theoretically be a substitute if you wanted to. Something funky with quantum entanglement allowing you to transmit the entire gamut of data that represented any object living or inanimate and reconstruct it on the other side.
Still, not much option for cloutjng people over the head with power swords...
Probably worth noting that a lot of sci-fi sidesteps FTL issues by using alternate dimensions and similar things where physics don't apply or space is bent or some such.
You I like. Good answer. The weird gravity drive of the narwhals using the gravity of the planets they are going to defies logic.
It is an Alcubierre drive, basically the only type of FTL that as far as we know may be possible. From all the nonsense in 40k, Narvhals are among the least nonsensical ones.
You I like. Good answer. The weird gravity drive of the narwhals using the gravity of the planets they are going to defies logic.
It is an Alcubierre drive, basically the only type of FTL that as far as we know may be possible. From all the nonsense in 40k, Narvhals are among the least nonsensical ones.
Agreed, although that's by-the-by. The issue is that we already have a wholly accepted method of FTL travel that pretty much all races use in some way (all of them, prior to Necrons) which is interwoven into the fabric of the universe on a number of levels. The sudden and unwarranted change to even an ostensibly more realistic method of FTL travel is jarring simply because it has no background or support-fantasies surrounding it to make it feel realistic from an in-universe perspective.
To be honest, it feels the same with Necrons. Much more plausible from a realism standpoint, but egregiously different in-universe (although at least mollified slightly by the whole Necrons' tech level).
No we don't. The concepts of dark matter and dark energy shows how little we understand gravity.
Haha absolutely. We haven't the faintest idea how it works. We understand some of the observable effects (mass, time dilation etc.) but as to how it actually functions? Pretty much sweet FA and sketches on the back of cigarette packets.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/06/27 08:27:54
Actually I've always thought the Narvhal was a cool alternative to warp travel.
I see it as a sort of "Starfall" drive; with the idea of the universe being sort of a rolled up map, to use a black hole to "punch through" one point to move to another point on the rolled up map beneath it.
Though instead of creating a bunch of holes in the map, the 'Nids use a slightly less powerful gravity force (which is less destructive and takes less power) to create a conduit/wormhole to the destination. In a sense, it warps space around them, but doesn't punch a hole in the "map" and doesn't require traversing the immaterium. The side effects though are gravatic disturbances at the termination point and time dilation that makes the otherwise instantaneous trip (for the nids) take years or centuries to the outside observer.
As another analogy, it's sort of like blindly feeling out in space and locating an orange. Yet, rather than pull the orange to you, you pull yourself to the orange to eat it. With lots time/space dilation going on as you do so .