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Made in gb
Hooded Inquisitorial Interrogator






So 8th has barely hit and I've already cobbled together a template for doing index-style data sheets

While I will eventually be porting my 7th edition codexes over, I may wait until we see the first official codex for 8th before I get too ahead of myself. However, in the mean time I wanted to do something simpler, so decided to knock together a quick index style release for including Adeptus Arbites. I feel like I'm stepping on Ambience 327's toes a bit, since he always releases a great Arbites codex for every edition, but I've kept mine pretty simple, focusing mainly on units that can easily be made from old Arbites models, as well as some common conversions such as bike-mounted Pursuit Squads.

So, without further ado, here's my first foray into 8th edition rules:

  • Version 0.2 [PDF]
  • Version 0.1 [PDF]

(Apologies for the hairline gaps in the headers of the PDF, I'm not sure how to prevent them)

To give the cliff notes version, the important features of the list are:
  • Units:
    • Arbitrators are pretty solid with good Leadership, 4+ saves and BS 3+ as standard.
    • Patrol Squads are built around short to mid-range firepower, with Vanguard making them a good base for a force if you want to move forward and start shooting quickly.
    • Suppression Squads focus on melee combat, with defensive smoke grenades (function like Smoke Launchers), they're tough with a 5+ Invulnerable save as standard, boosted to 4+ by their unit ability until they lose too many models.
    • Riot Squads are an Elite mix of the two, basically suppression shields with ranged firepower.
    • Pursuit Squads are basically bike-mounted Patrol Squads.
    • Pursuit Sentinels are a mix between Armoured and Scout sentinels with the same Vanguard ability but the tougher armour, but with a generally mid-range weapon options.
    • Arbites Land Speeder is basically a Land Speeder Storm.
    • Cyber-Mastiff pack with optional Handler to boost them, are fast moving and vicious, with the same No Escape ability as Wyches, for when those Vice-like Jaws get latched on
    • Judges are the main front-line characters, with Morale boosting, with Marshals being the upgraded HQ version which can also bolster other Imperium forces, both are not to be trifled with one-on-one.
    • Chasteners hurt enemy Morale with their presence and Scare Grenades (but these must be thrown and hit at the right time).
    • Chaplains help encourage Arbites to hit things more.
    • Rhinos and Repressors for transport. The Repressor is a little tougher, main benefit is a couple extra transport capacity, firing slits, and the Riot Plough giving more damage if it charges at least 6".
    • Sniper and Support teams are basically sniper rifle and heavy weapon weapons team type units (paired models). Both have a Suppressive Fire ability to represent that they're trained to support their fellow Arbitrators, meaning if they inflict wounds they can prevent an enemy from Overwatch. So makes for a good one-two-combo for a charging Arbitrator unit. Doesn't work with other Imperium units (or even different precincts) as I'm assuming it's very much down to precision timing.

  • Wargear:
    • Shock Mauls are weaker Power Mauls that can force save re-rolls on 6's to-Wound.
    • Arbites Shotgun has different firing modes; none more powerful than a Boltgun as such, but with high flexibility. Might need a slight points increase (e.g- 3 vs 2 for a Boltgun or such). Not sure though.
    • Choke Grenades force Toughness tests on non-Vehicles that, if failed, reduce a unit's to-Hit rolls; one on its own won't do much, but a unit or two throwing them out together, or using Grenade Launchers with Choke Grenades can seriously impair a target.
    • Webbers also force Toughness tests, but can affect Vehicles too. For each failure the target suffers a penalty to all movement. Again, in isolation this won't do much, but with the Heavy Webbers especially quantity means you can grinding all sorts of targets to a complete halt. Very useful for preventing especially nasty combat units from charging, but I like the idea of your local Arbites precinct pinning down super-heavies with riot-controlling glue-guns
    • Suppression Sirens (Pursuit Sentinels and Land Speeder) can force an enemy unit to fight last; requires the vehicle to charge, but can be very handy if your Arbites are forced to put down some pesky Howling Banshee or Slaaneshi Daemon rioters!



So yeah, the aim is for the units to individually be relatively weak, but synergise well, with combined choke grenade and/or webber salvos giving you a lot of crowd control options. Choke grenades especially mean you can render an enemy almost useless in the first round of combat, making it easier for your Suppression Squads to mop up weaker enemies, or get some much needed early damage in against stronger enemies with less chance of being horribly mauled to death before you get a chance to. Cyber-mastiffs are either deadly or pesky depending upon whether you use them to hurt or just slow the enemy (who potentially can't escape them).

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/07/05 13:11:21


   
Made in gb
Keeper of the Holy Orb of Antioch





avoiding the lorax on Crion

Riot medics?

But... They use there skills in medical to both hurt and heal.
They can choose only one mode at a start of turn to say heal or roll to prevent so many wounds or re roll to wound etc.

So either they have to decide at start of turn to buff defense or offense.

Gotta think ahead abit

I'm sure they have own medical teams...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/24 22:37:50


Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

"May the odds be ever in your favour"

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.

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Hooded Inquisitorial Interrogator






 jhe90 wrote:
Riot medics?

But... They use there skills in medical to both hurt and heal.
They can choose only one mode at a start of turn to say heal or roll to prevent so many wounds or re roll to wound etc.

Hmm, interesting idea; it could be a good fit for the Chastener actually, since they're basically torturers, so keeping suspects alive long enough to confess could be part of their remit?
Would help to distinguish them a bit more from the Chaplains!

   
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Been Around the Block




Nice work on the layout!

Can't really comment on balance, but I do appreciate you writing out the ideas behind the list/rules and like your design philosophy with the emphasis on synergy and debuffing the enemy. Seems quite fitting.

Feel it'd be more fluffy for Judges and Marshalls to be swapped, ie the Marshalls being the field officers and Judges the grand leaders. Though either way, I also feel they should both be in HQ section. If only because the Elite one seems a bit cluttered compared to it.
   
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Hooded Inquisitorial Interrogator






JaqTaar wrote:
Feel it'd be more fluffy for Judges and Marshalls to be swapped, ie the Marshalls being the field officers and Judges the grand leaders. Though either way, I also feel they should both be in HQ section. If only because the Elite one seems a bit cluttered compared to it.

I've actually been having trouble when it comes to finding out which rank is supposed to be higher; most sources I've seen suggest the Marshal is the higher rank, and one of my favourite models (the Arbite leader with a shotgun and a giant eagle symbol on his head) is supposed to be a Marshal Primaris, rather than a Judge, so as far as I'm aware Judges are the lower of the two ranks, as a Precinct will normally include multiple Judges, but only a handful of Marshals, with one in overall command. However, different fluff sources have somewhat conflicting versions, but I believe it's the Lord High Marshal that represents the Arbites on Terra, so that seems to confirm Marshal is the higher rank.

I have been considering though whether to make them both HQ choices, and making the higher rank of the two much more powerful, more like a special character, since it seems like a Marshal would actually be a fairly uncommon sight unless the Arbites are mobilising in significant force, i.e- so they'd both be leaders, but with the Judge feeling less like a champion.


Also as a note; I think I had a bit of a brain-melt when doing the Webber rules, it should really be a Strength test rather than a Toughness test, I'll fix that in the next version.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/06/25 10:30:02


   
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Been Around the Block




 Haravikk wrote:

I've actually been having trouble when it comes to finding out which rank is supposed to be higher (...) different fluff sources have somewhat conflicting versions

True enough. With them usually playing a secondary role in the background and what little rules they received having been semi-official, it's hard to pin down info. It doesn't help that different novels use different rank names and then there's the Low/High Gothic difference.
But I think that since Matt Farrer's Shira Calpurnia novels and later the Dark Herey RPG the sources have been somewhat consistent. Or at least more or less reconcilable with each other. I'd definitely recommend checking out the novels (especially the bonus material of the omnibus, which actually contains a document dedicated to the structure of the Arbites) if you haven't already.

The way I interpret it is that a Marshal is a military commander and in charge of a Precinct (or a planet's Precincts). Above that come the High/Lord/Grand Marshals (culminating in the Grand Provost Marshal on Terra). Thing is, these higher us may have "Marshal" in their name, but they are all also Judges, as the military and judicial branches of the Arbites merge at the top. According to the RPG, Judges are quite similar to Inquisitors, except that they are bound by law and bound to a certain location.

Back to the actual rules though:

Noticed you gave Executioner shells a 30" range. That seems a bit much. A different ammo type, sophisticated though it may be, shouldn't result in two and a half times the range. I think usually it's been 18". 24" might be okay at a stretch.

Have you considered giving Suppression Squads WS 3+ (and perhaps BS 4+ in turn). Though maybe that'd make them too similar to Riot Squads?


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/25 12:36:45


 
   
Made in gb
Keeper of the Holy Orb of Antioch





avoiding the lorax on Crion

 Haravikk wrote:
 jhe90 wrote:
Riot medics?

But... They use there skills in medical to both hurt and heal.
They can choose only one mode at a start of turn to say heal or roll to prevent so many wounds or re roll to wound etc.

Hmm, interesting idea; it could be a good fit for the Chastener actually, since they're basically torturers, so keeping suspects alive long enough to confess could be part of their remit?
Would help to distinguish them a bit more from the Chaplains!


Yeah. Like keeping a wounded suspect alive enough to drag back to the cells for interrogation.
However could also heal allies/know human weak points.

But as split role. Its split in game and you must choose at Start turn as fair way to buff. Must plan ahead.
It keeps them from being too overpowered I think.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/25 17:45:56


Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

"May the odds be ever in your favour"

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.

FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.  
   
Made in gb
Hooded Inquisitorial Interrogator






JaqTaar wrote:
Noticed you gave Executioner shells a 30" range. That seems a bit much. A different ammo type, sophisticated though it may be, shouldn't result in two and a half times the range. I think usually it's been 18". 24" might be okay at a stretch.

Well, they're not really alternate ammo as such, they're more like little guided missiles that you fire-and-forget, that also being why they ignore cover. I was hoping Heavy 1 might be enough to balance the fairly long range.
I originally made them one use per battle (whole squad), but with the trend in 8th towards lots of characters as Elite choices I wasn't sure if that would get annoying as you have to start tracking which units have and have not fired them yet.

Ideally I really want something that's situational enough that you're not using them all the time, but useful enough that they don't just get forgotten, but it's hard to think of something that sits in that sweet spot!

I do have one possible idea though, which is actually to make the execution round a "Grenade"; this would limit them to a single model per unit per turn, so would prevent patrol squads from forming a firing line without boltguns. In that case I'd possibly up them to Damage D3 or such, so their function becomes more about trying to hit characters that are separated from other units.

JaqTaar wrote:
Have you considered giving Suppression Squads WS 3+ (and perhaps BS 4+ in turn). Though maybe that'd make them too similar to Riot Squads?

I was thinking about it; but BS 4+ doesn't really impede them much as it only affects their Choke Grenade use, and any pistol the Proctor takes. I'm not aware of any other regular human infantry on WS 3+ though? My intent was to focus on their defensive capabilities; they do have an extra attack thanks to their Suppression Shields.


JaqTaarr wrote:
True enough. With them usually playing a secondary role in the background and what little rules they received having been semi-official, it's hard to pin down info. It doesn't help that different novels use different rank names and then there's the Low/High Gothic difference.
But I think that since Matt Farrer's Shira Calpurnia novels and later the Dark Herey RPG the sources have been somewhat consistent. Or at least more or less reconcilable with each other. I'd definitely recommend checking out the novels (especially the bonus material of the omnibus, which actually contains a document dedicated to the structure of the Arbites) if you haven't already.

The way I interpret it is that a Marshal is a military commander and in charge of a Precinct (or a planet's Precincts). Above that come the High/Lord/Grand Marshals (culminating in the Grand Provost Marshal on Terra). Thing is, these higher us may have "Marshal" in their name, but they are all also Judges, as the military and judicial branches of the Arbites merge at the top. According to the RPG, Judges are quite similar to Inquisitors, except that they are bound by law and bound to a certain location.

I've actually read the novels, but I don't remember them spending much time explaining the hierarchy

I'll see if I can find the document on the structure, I only have the individual novels not the omnibus, so I'll see if I can get that!

So are you thinking then that Judges and Marshals should both be HQ but have more distinct roles from each other? Or if the Marshals are promoted from Judges it makes sense for them to be like Judges but with an extra rule or two on top? I was thinking of giving the Marshals being Judges but giving them a restricted set of orders they can issue, to make them worth paying the extra points for, but then maybe make them limited to one per Detachment or even function like named characters (one per army) to emphasise the rarity of them actually coming out onto the field for anything small.

 jhe90 wrote:
Yeah. Like keeping a wounded suspect alive enough to drag back to the cells for interrogation.
However could also heal allies/know human weak points.

But as split role. Its split in game and you must choose at Start turn as fair way to buff. Must plan ahead.
It keeps them from being too overpowered I think.

I like the idea, but the standard template for the Healer ability isn't that powerful to begin with IMO; it's roll a D6, on a 4+ you can restore D3 wounds to one model or 1 model with 1 wound to a unit, so it's like an average 0.75 wounds or so per turn if you use it every turn. I think just bumping the cost as appropriate should be enough; the challenge in using the model will be keeping them where you can get the most out of both abilities, without leaving them vulnerable to attack.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/06/25 21:53:27


   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

This is really neat. Props to you!

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in vn
Been Around the Block




 Haravikk wrote:
Well, they're not really alternate ammo as such, they're more like little guided missiles that you fire-and-forget, that also being why they ignore cover. I was hoping Heavy 1 might be enough to balance the fairly long range.

Yeah, but it's still the same weapon firing the shell. With 30" you'd have a shotgun that turns almost into a sniper rifle. Just seems weird. And is not consistent with the rules it had in the past.

For comparison:
In the 3rd edition list from Citadel Journal Executioner shells had 18" range, Strength 4, AP 5, Assault 1 and re-roll misses.
In Necromunda they had 18" range, Strength 4, -2 to Saves and -1 to hit at 0-4" and +1 to hit at 4-18" (representing how the shell needed some time to lock onto the target).

 Haravikk wrote:
I'm not aware of any other regular human infantry on WS 3+ though? My intent was to focus on their defensive capabilities; they do have an extra attack thanks to their Suppression Shields.

Well, dunno if you can say they're regular humans, but the Crusaders, Celestians and Seraphim all have WS 3+. As do several DKoK units from what I hear.

 Haravikk wrote:
So are you thinking then that Judges and Marshals should both be HQ but have more distinct roles from each other? Or if the Marshals are promoted from Judges it makes sense for them to be like Judges but with an extra rule or two on top?
Only the higher ranks of Marshals are also Judges though. The basic, lowest-ranking Marshal is purely a military commander. So to make it more intuitive I'd call the common HQ unit Marshal and the rarer one Judge (his High Gothic title would be High or Grand Marshal, but the designation "Judge" is so iconic I feel it must stay).

 Haravikk wrote:
... make them limited to one per Detachment or even function like named characters (one per army) to emphasise the rarity of them actually coming out onto the field for anything small.

For Judges I was thinking along those lines, yeah.

Just to illustrate it further, the Marshal would be the equivalent of an Inquisitor and the Judge the equivalent of Coteaz/Karamazov/Greyfax.
   
Made in gb
Hooded Inquisitorial Interrogator






JaqTaar wrote:
it's still the same weapon firing the shell. With 30" you'd have a shotgun that turns almost into a sniper rifle. Just seems weird. And is not consistent with the rules it had in the past.

For comparison:
In the 3rd edition list from Citadel Journal Executioner shells had 18" range, Strength 4, AP 5, Assault 1 and re-roll misses.
In Necromunda they had 18" range, Strength 4, -2 to Saves and -1 to hit at 0-4" and +1 to hit at 4-18" (representing how the shell needed some time to lock onto the target).

I'm not sure why past rules had them like this, but it was likely to balance them against the fact that all models had access to them. Fluff-wise they're like little missiles so it doesn't really matter that they come from a shotgun, as it's just functioning as a launcher, but from what I can find it seems that in fluff they should actually be pretty rare.

Anyway, I think the option I'm now leaning towards is to take them away from regular units entirely, and instead give them to the Judges only (more on that in a bit), as a single-shot, 24" range S5, AP-2 D3 Damage attack that can be used against targets you can't see. It literally functions like a mini Hunter-killer Missile with half the range and less Strength. This hopefully reflects their rarity, and makes them more formidable as befits something named "executioner".

Regular units will either just have Manstoppers and Scattershot, or if I think of something sufficiently different for Solid Slug they may get that as a replacement, though two basic profiles is probably enough.

JaqTaar wrote:
Well, dunno if you can say they're regular humans, but the Crusaders, Celestians and Seraphim all have WS 3+. As do several DKoK units from what I hear.

Right you are! It also sounds like Suppressor may be an actual rank as well, so it would make sense for them to be trained differently rather than simply equipped differently.

JaqTaar wrote:
Only the higher ranks of Marshals are also Judges though. The basic, lowest-ranking Marshal is purely a military commander. So to make it more intuitive I'd call the common HQ unit Marshal and the rarer one Judge (his High Gothic title would be High or Grand Marshal, but the designation "Judge" is so iconic I feel it must stay).

Just to illustrate it further, the Marshal would be the equivalent of an Inquisitor and the Judge the equivalent of Coteaz/Karamazov/Greyfax.

That's actually a little more confusing, given Judges sound a bit like inquisitors in how they operate

What I'm thinking now is something like this; both Judges and Marshals as orthogonal HQ fulfilling different roles. While Judges may be rarer, I do still think there's a possibility in the circumstances that 40k games represent of several working together so having no additional limitation seems fine. The roles I see them in:
  • Marshal: Basically a Militarum Company Commander with better stats and equipment, the main benefit being the ability to give a choice of orders to one or two nearby Arbitrator units. The Marshal will be the basic bread-and-butter HQ that most Arbites Detachments would include.
  • Judge: Deadlier fighter than the Marshal, and with access to some additional equipment (including an Executioner Round as standard on their shotgun), bolsters Morale nearby and with some extra impact against characters. Idea being to reflect their being a bit like Inquisitors but operating entirely within the Law, usually pursuing someone or something, and either alone or heading up other Arbites. The Judge is therefore the more expensive but more capable HQ choice of the two, so you need an idea of what you want them to do to justify the points/Power Rating increase they represent.


For bigger forces I'm then thinking of adding a High Marshal; basically the Marshal but with Judge-like stats, can issue orders to more units, and with some unique equipment, like a named character, except that they are restricted by Precinct rather than an entire army. So if you have the models you could theoretically field two Precincts, each with their own High Marshal leading them, with regular Marshals and/or Judges supporting.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/26 14:15:55


   
Made in us
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This is really neat! If that's an InDesign template let me know

I love the Arbites (a friend of mine played them until 6th using various count-as and homebrew), but I think it suffers a bit from trying to be "take all comers." These are grimdark space cops and I don't really get that theme from these entries, which feels like Imperial Guard specops (particularly given the almost army-wide invul saves, stand-issue Heavy weapons, multiple Attacks, and very high Leadership on even baseline Arbitrators). You're also taking some liberties with past rules for Arbites with some equipment, like the ubiquitous issuing of bolt pistols.

My suggestion is to double-down on a few key themes and trim some of the entries that don't have models (except the Judges on bikes, that's too iconic). For example, I suggest playing more with the No Escape mechanics or otherwise messing with the movement of enemy units, with Arbites getting bonuses for certain things like Shock Mauls and having a Mastiff engaged. That also gives them a clear special-purpose role that can synergize with allies. Bonuses for killing (capturing) enemy Characters would also be flavorful and fit the cop theme. You could further play with that with something like "Most Wanted" where you select an enemy Character and if the Arbites get that unit you get a further bonus (I say Character specifically so that they can hunt an otherwise "small fry" for the "real" armies).
   
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Hooded Inquisitorial Interrogator






TzeentchNet wrote:
This is really neat! If that's an InDesign template let me know

Unfortunately not, I used iBooks Author because I like the iBook format and normally it's great for transferring onto my iPad, but there's some bug or other that has ruined it for this particular layout. I do actually have a recent-ish Creative Suite license so I really should learn and use InDesign for this, but I haven't used it in years so it'd be a learning curve to get back into it!

TzeentchNet wrote:
These are grimdark space cops and I don't really get that theme from these entries, which feels like Imperial Guard specops (particularly given the almost army-wide invul saves, stand-issue Heavy weapons, multiple Attacks, and very high Leadership on even baseline Arbitrators).

I'm not sure what you mean by army-wide invulnerable saves? It's only really suppression and riot squads that have them as standard, otherwise it's HQ characters, chaplains and squad leaders only, with the latter having to take a Suppression Shield to get it (which is how Arbites Enforcers always operated in the past). I originally wanted to do something a bit different with suppression shields, but the invulnerable save is by far the simplest way to implement them, on top of a basic bonus attack.
Heavy weapons as standard is only Heavy Stubbers on patrol squads, which fits how they've always operated. They're not exactly the most powerful heavy weapon going anyway, most of the time you'll get more mileage out of maxing out special weapons, especially grenade launchers, as these can give you more Choke Grenade tests per turn, making it a lot easier to reduce a target to 6's to-Hit. Also, I've limited quite a few of the heavier weapons options for Sentinels and the Land Speeder, it's only really the Support Squads that can take anything heavier and even then the heaviest weapon is the Plasma Cannon.
Multiple attacks is again mostly a result of Suppression Shields I think, giving Suppression and Riot squads a second attack at basic stats, so not exactly super powerful. Patrol squads should be the real meat of any competitive force I think, and they have only 1 Attack as standard, or do you mean something else by this?
High leadership is intentional as Arbites are basically trained from birth by the Schola Progenium to cope with chaotic urban warfare. I know that Tempestus Scions have lower Leadership (6, up to 7 with squad leaders I think), but then they're strike troops not really intended to hold battle lines but rather take targets of opportunity IMO, so I felt the extra point of Leadership makes sense for Arbites.

To give you a bit more of an idea of my thinking; part of the reason they may feel a bit like guard spec-ops rather than "space cops" is that background-wise the Arbites aren't really a regular police force to begin with. Most imperial worlds still have some kind of standard police force dealing with most front-line crime, the Arbites essentially operate on top of that, not just helping out with major law and order issues or high profile cases, but can also be called upon to put down corrupt planetary governors and other issues. So I'd say they are in a kind of in-between space between police and military force, as they can be expected to go up against a planet's defence force if necessary to unseat corruption in the highest offices. Arbites actually have access to all sorts of heavier ordnance, including battle-tanks, but I figured they can be allied in easily enough so didn't need to be in the list.

It's something I was a little disappointed the Shira Calpurnia novels didn't address a bit more, as they make it seem like on Hydraphur the Arbites are the only police force present, though it's a bit vague (as Shira herself is only being assigned cases with pretty significant high level implications). I suppose there will be worlds where this is the case, and on others the Arbites will oversee the entire judicial system, so any other forces will still be working under them regardless. But yeah, I think "space cops" doesn't quite cover them completely, so IMO they absolutely should feel a bit like the guard as well, as they essentially operate above, or at least parallel to, planetary governors, and can be called upon to overthrow them if necessary.

Anyway, hope that clears up my view of it

TzeentchNet wrote:
You're also taking some liberties with past rules for Arbites with some equipment, like the ubiquitous issuing of bolt pistols.

I was going to give them all Laspistols but then they'd be weaker than the Arbites Shotgun, and it doesn't really make sense to me that you can use a pistol but not a shotgun in close quarters; I could give them a custom name like "Large Bore Stubber" or something, but I think that stat-wise they'd still have the same basic profile anyway. I wanted to emphasise that compared to guard the Arbites are very well equipped, which also factors into their generally being overcosted individually.

TzeentchNet wrote:
My suggestion is to double-down on a few key themes and trim some of the entries that don't have models (except the Judges on bikes, that's too iconic).

I've actually already pared it down a bit; my focus is on units that had official models, and units that are very easy to convert. For example, conversions of Scout Bikes are very common (and easy to do), so while there's no proper Arbites model for them they're easy to make, same with the Land Speeder Storm equivalent. It's also worth remembering that even the official units are long out of production, even the enforcer squad set that was kept alive for a long while under specialist games has now been OOP for four or more years iirc (I got a couple right before GW discontinued them completely). Space Marine scouts are generally good for all manner of Arbites conversions, even more-so now that the Primaris marines are along seemingly to replace all older marine models.

The main area I'm being a bit frivolous is probably the characters, but then they all have the same basic equipment and armour style, so any conversion should work equally well for each character type; Chaplains just need a Rosarius, Chasteners are a little trickier I suppose but something that looks like shackles ought to do it.

TzeentchNet wrote:
I suggest playing more with the No Escape mechanics or otherwise messing with the movement of enemy units, with Arbites getting bonuses for certain things like Shock Mauls and having a Mastiff engaged.

On movement, do you have something in mind on top of Mastiffs and Webbers for impeding movement? My intent is that you can use webbers (particularly heavy webbers on vehicles) to slow or stop units so you can charge them at your leisure with suppression squads, supported by mastiffs so the enemies can't fall back. I was thinking though that it may be worth adding a combat squads type ability to mastiffs, so you can take two or even three units as a single slot and spread them out more.

TzeentchNet wrote:
Bonuses for killing (capturing) enemy Characters would also be flavorful and fit the cop theme.

That seems like something that would probably come in via Tactical Objectives? With no official codexes yet I'm not sure what GW is going to be doing there, so I'm currently sticking with making the list consistent with the index books.
I've been working on porting my 7th edition Inquisition codex, and one of the things I'm toying with are Inquisition specific stratagems, which includes an interrogation style ability that lets you see an enemy's Tactical Objectives and discard one, could make sense for a Chastener?

TzeentchNet wrote:
You could further play with that with something like "Most Wanted" where you select an enemy Character and if the Arbites get that unit you get a further bonus (I say Character specifically so that they can hunt an otherwise "small fry" for the "real" armies).

That could work as something else to distinguish Judges from Marshals? It could fit in with their inquisitor-style authority quite well.


Anyway, thanks for the feedback and suggestions (to everyone else as well), certainly lots to think about for v0.2

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I'm looking forward to your next version. I do have two specific hopes though:

Can you remove attribute tests. This is not really a 8th Edition mechanic (does anything use it anymore?) and both Webber and Choke effectively requiring special counters seems unnecessary and is clunky.
- As Wounds are not necessarily "death" the mechanics could probably keep the overall flavor while being simpler to use. For example:

Heavy Webber
Range 12"; Heavy 4; S2; AP 0; D 1. This weapon wounds INFANTRY on a roll of 3+.

Choke Grenade: Reduce the Leadership of enemy units (other than VEHICLES) by 1 whilst they are within 1" of any <Unit Name> units. (These become an Ability and not wargear which makes them more useful and simpler)

And second, add grapplehawks (just kidding, sorta).

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TzeentchNet wrote:
And second, add grapplehawks (just kidding, sorta).

Coteaz has a somewhat similar creature, a psyber-eagle, which counts as a ranged weapon.
   
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TzeentchNet wrote:
Can you remove attribute tests. This is not really a 8th Edition mechanic (does anything use it anymore?) and both Webber and Choke effectively requiring special counters seems unnecessary and is clunky.
- As Wounds are not necessarily "death" the mechanics could probably keep the overall flavor while being simpler to use.

While I get where you're coming from, it feels like that diminishes the flavour of the weapons quite a bit, particularly the webber as it just becomes a flamer but different; the idea of Arbites anti-riot vehicles webbing things to a crawl (including vehicles) is really appealing me to me, while for units I'm not sure casualties make sense since other members could just cut them free. Perhaps there's another way to simplify it?

TzeentchNet wrote:
Choke Grenade: Reduce the Leadership of enemy units (other than VEHICLES) by 1 whilst they are within 1" of any <Unit Name> units. (These become an Ability and not wargear which makes them more useful and simpler)

Making choke grenades an ability is interesting, but I'd really like to still account for the use of grenade launchers somehow. Also, any particular reason you're suggesting a shift to anti-Leadership rather than affecting hit rolls? While it may currently be more complex, I like the ability to impair hit-rolls specifically, as it's a good way to get in an easier first round of combat, particularly in support of Suppression Squads; while they're durable they're not the most formidable close combat unit on their own, so they need all the help they can get.


What if in both cases I just eliminated the characteristic tests, reduced the number of possible hits and made them a straight up -1 to Movement/to-Hit respectively? It still needs a dice or such to indicate the penalty, but means less rolling required.

JaqTaar wrote:
TzeentchNet wrote:
And second, add grapplehawks (just kidding, sorta).

Coteaz has a somewhat similar creature, a psyber-eagle, which counts as a ranged weapon.

It's a decent attack, though I kind of feel GW missed a trick by not making it a weapon that can attack non-visible targets. Given that it's literally an autonomous cybernetic eagle with a psychic link

Being able to attack non-visible targets would give it a potential niche as Arbites equipment on units/characters, as it means you could still hurt things you can't see, so potentially gives you more choices in movement (i.e- if you're not moving to get line of sight then you can move to secure better cover instead, but still hurt them a little).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/28 11:05:24


   
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Not sure what you mean by Executioner shells being rare - they're standard issue for Arbites (although no-one else gets them, so I suppose they're rare by that metric). Their main function is to make it easier to hit targets in cover (in 2nd edition, they could even target Hidden models, IIRC), so simply granting Arbites Shotguns some sort of Ignores Cover rule would be sufficient, IMO.

Choke grenades - "any unit charged by a unit with Choke Grenades must be chosen to fight last in the Fight phase of the turn they were charged". You might still want to use a marker, but only for a single phase of a single turn.

Genestealer Cult forces already get webbers; check what their rules are.Mastiffs and handlers; there are two different Cyber-mastiff models - the all-mechanical one that was part of the Necromunda Enforcers and the cyber-enhanced dog that was a Forge World exclusive a few years ago. I don't know if you feel it's worth distinguishing between the two, rules-wise.

Also, the Forge World handler has lighter armour (a 5+ save, probably), a power maul and no gun. It'd be nice if that equipment could be reflected in the datasheet; "A Handler is equipped with light Arbites armour and Choke Grenades. they may be equipped with any of the following: bolt pistol, power maul, Arbites carapace armour (increase save to 4+)" (plus other weapon options if you want; Necromunda Enforcer handlers could be equipped with the same weaponry as the rest of the squad, so people may have handlers with shotguns or shields.
   
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 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Not sure what you mean by Executioner shells being rare - they're standard issue for Arbites (although no-one else gets them, so I suppose they're rare by that metric). Their main function is to make it easier to hit targets in cover (in 2nd edition, they could even target Hidden models, IIRC), so simply granting Arbites Shotguns some sort of Ignores Cover rule would be sufficient, IMO.

It's another area where the fluff seems to get a bit inconsistent, but even in the most common descriptions the executioner rounds are made out to be especially deadly, but that's hard to represent without something to balance them out (whereas Necromunda has ammo rolls, and only one "gang" could ever take them anyway). I don't really want them to seem weak instead. They're also described as rare, with the impression that regular arbitrators would probably only have a couple at most as standard issue.

So to me it feels like the options are a weaker, standard ammo type that doesn't capture that rarity or the threat they apparently pose, a more powerful but single use (requiring per unit book-keeping), or limiting to characters (maybe even Judges specifically). For me I'm leaning towards the latter as it feels a better way to make them interesting.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Choke grenades - "any unit charged by a unit with Choke Grenades must be chosen to fight last in the Fight phase of the turn they were charged". You might still want to use a marker, but only for a single phase of a single turn.

It's a possibility; I suppose Grenade Launchers with Choke Grenades could still be a means of doing this on behalf of other units, e.g- against enemies that are about to charge a unit that's already in combat?

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Genestealer Cult forces already get webbers; check what their rules are.

Hmm, didn't notice that, thanks for pointing it out! Being able to wound against Strength or Toughness is a bit stale, doesn't seem like all that many units have higher Toughness than they have have Strength, but I suppose I have to use those rules. Shame though, as I really liked interfering with movement, perhaps there's somewhere else I can work that in, but the webbers do seem to have good range while being pretty cheap, will have to try and work out what the Heavy Webber looks like on that theme.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Mastiffs and handlers; there are two different Cyber-mastiff models - the all-mechanical one that was part of the Necromunda Enforcers and the cyber-enhanced dog that was a Forge World exclusive a few years ago. I don't know if you feel it's worth distinguishing between the two, rules-wise.

Also, the Forge World handler has lighter armour (a 5+ save, probably), a power maul and no gun. It'd be nice if that equipment could be reflected in the datasheet; "A Handler is equipped with light Arbites armour and Choke Grenades. they may be equipped with any of the following: bolt pistol, power maul, Arbites carapace armour (increase save to 4+)" (plus other weapon options if you want; Necromunda Enforcer handlers could be equipped with the same weaponry as the rest of the squad, so people may have handlers with shotguns or shields.

I'll probably just treat the Mastiffs the same; I think the rules should be fine whether they're fully robotic or cyborgs? I don't think anything specifically references their being mechanical, and they're not specifically immune to anything.
I'll make adjustments for the handler though!

   
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To add yet another wrinkle, the beast handlers in Book of Judgment are almost all tech priests
   
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I think that's more a concession to the gaming aspect of the RPG than for fluff reasons: they wanted to give each class something new in each expansion, so in this case they turned mastiff handlers into tech-priest-type characters.

Plus, you could always say that's only how it works in the Calixis sector. ;-)

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 Haravikk wrote:
It's another area where the fluff seems to get a bit inconsistent, but even in the most common descriptions the executioner rounds are made out to be especially deadly, but that's hard to represent without something to balance them out (whereas Necromunda has ammo rolls, and only one "gang" could ever take them anyway). I don't really want them to seem weak instead. They're also described as rare, with the impression that regular arbitrators would probably only have a couple at most as standard issue.


Are you looking at material from Dark Heresy 1st edition? I've not read that, so it looks like FFG changed things; as I said when first introduced in 40k, they were basically solid shells with a benefit to firing into cover - ref. Judge Dredd's heatseeker rounds.

I'll probably just treat the Mastiffs the same; I think the rules should be fine whether they're fully robotic or cyborgs?


Fair enough; I just thought I'd mention it in case you'd not seen that mini (and it's been unavailable for five years, anyway).

Oh, and if you have access to Forge World's Index: Forces of the Adeptus Astartes, an Arbites version of the Repressor (with an option to swap the flamer for a webber*) would be appropriate, since the Sororitas got it from the Arbites in the first place.

*or a multi-melta, for real crowd control, as seen in one scene in Ian Watson's Space Marine (1990).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/29 08:05:47


 
   
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 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Oh, and if you have access to Forge World's Index: Forces of the Adeptus Astartes, an Arbites version of the Repressor (with an option to swap the flamer for a webber*) would be appropriate, since the Sororitas got it from the Arbites in the first place.

Unfortunately I don't have access to that yet; I've been using read-along videos on YouTube as I only bought the indexes I personally need (Imperium 1 & 2 and Xenos 1). I'm one of those players that spends so much money on models and essential supplies that I have a bare minimum of books and scenery

I did manage to find a good shot of the data sheet though; my take isn't far off, they just seem to have implemented the dozer blade differently, so I'll get that changed. I haven't been able to find a points cost for it so far though.

   
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Alright then, first update! Let's see if I can get all the changes:

  • List-wide Changes:
    • Arbites Shotgun changes; they no longer have executioner rounds as standard, but instead have a profile for Solid Slug (the standard assault 2 S4) with Scattershot now Rapid Fire 2 S3 for four shots within 6". Executioner Rounds are now limited to some characters, and are a one-shot, 24" Heavy 1 S5 AP -2 Damage D3 that does not require a visible target. Think of them like anti-character hunter-killer missiles, ideal for a Character that's trying to run. It feels fluffier for me to make them more rare but more deadly, as I always found past rules underwhelming, but I know others may not agree.
    • Choke still impairs to-Hit rolls but is now much simpler; it's just a straight-up penalty on hit, with far fewer shots now fired (basic grenade is Grenade 1, so a 2/3 chance of a -1 penalty from most units, meaning you need more units and/or Grenade Launchers to inflict a -1 or -2 penalty reliably).
    • Webbers are brought in line with Genestealer Cult rules; not my favourite, simply rolling to-Wound against Strength or Toughness (whichever is lower), but they do have better range and are cheaper. Adapted the basic rule for a Heavy Webber on vehicles that can take them.
    • Most units now have a Commandeer rule, similar to units in the Inquisition list. This allows Arbites to board Astra Militarum vehicles, so you can ally in Chimeras, Valkyries and other transports that the Arbites can have, without me having to duplicate their entries for the list (since I don't think their equipment would be much different.
    • Fixed a lot of wargear options entries to remove options such as two melee weapons. This means that the Suppression Shield wargear option is currently under Pistols though, otherwise I'd have to include it in every unit data sheet with a leader that can take one, couldn't think of something else to call the Pistols list except maybe "Off-hand Weapons" but that's a bit long for some entries.
    • Special Issue Wargear list gives access to Melta Bombs plus:
      • Grapplehawk: 18" Assault D3, S4 against non-visible enemy. I know this isn't consistent with Coteaz, but whenever I get around to updating my Inquisition codex/index he'll be getting the same non-visible ability on his Psyber Eagle.
      • Photon Flash Flares: force enemy to re-roll successful charge distance if unit is not already engaged. This is standard equipment for Sniper and Support Squads, otherwise a few extra points for squad leaders and characters. On top of the detective, this is my replacement for impeding movement now that the Webbers have changed.

  • Unit changes:
    • Judge is now adjusted to be more an inspirational character-killer; bolsters Arbites by their very presence, and has an executioner round and re-rolls against characters. I was going to give them a rule for hunting particular targets, but it's probably best left for tactical objectives once we know what those will look like in new codexes (I'm assuming factions will still have their own special objectives). Judges can also take some items that other models can't, including other power weapon types or a Thunder Hammer (I resisted the urge to call it a Gavel).
    • Marshals have an orders style ability affecting one friendly Arbitrator unit within 6", enabling them to shoot again (with penalty), Fight again or move again.
    • High Marshals are a more limited, special character-like unit combining both Judge and Marshal; not quite as good as a character-killer as the plain Judge, but with the same inspiring presence, and can give one order to any number of Arbitrator units within 6", not just one. Also has Master-crafted Equipment, including an Arbites Shotgun with Executioner Round. Unlike a special character they are not one per army, but one per precinct (their Supreme Rule of Law rule only applies to their own Precinct, so there's really no reason to take one without a decent Precinct force to back them up).
    • Chastener now has a Medi-pack, so they're basically a scary medic.
    • Added the Detective, the only model that can be a Psyker (I wasn't completely sure if Detectives are always Psykers or not, so I've left it as an option for now). Psychic discipline has some interesting powers; one that can slow movement on a target (if the Webbers can't have it… ), one inflicts revenge damage for wounds against a chosen friendly unit, one eliminates cover benefits from an enemy unit. With or without being a Psyker, the Detective is also an infiltrator, so a potential nuisance/diversion/objective grabber with decent access to equipment.
    • Cyber-mastiffs can perform Heroic Interventions for friendly <Precinct> units.
    • Cyber-mastiff Handlers now have a lot more options to cover the possible options they've had over the years. In addition, they now enable you to take up to two Cyber-mastiff units without occupying a slot. So a handler and two packs of 1-5 mastiffs is now one slot.
    • Patrol Squads can now include up to 20 models, and can be split into two 10 model squads. Special choices (and Heavy Stubbers) are one per 10 models. Basically compared to the last version you can take two full patrol squads as a single Troops choice, or one big one. Fluff describes this as unusual for normal operations, but for the kind of fights 40k represents it seems appropriate.
    • Suppression Squads can include up to 15 models.
    • Repressor should now match the Forge World rules, though I never did find out what the points cost is supposed to be. This means it is now WS 5+ standard, with its Dozer Ram tripling its attacks against Infantry. Transport capacity reduced to 10. Also, I just noticed that I didn't change the Firing Slits rule to allow any weapon type to fire; personally I think it's a bit weird, but that's what Forge World have gone for so that's what I'm using; so Patrol Squads can now merrily fire Heavy Stubbers out of a tiny firing slit!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/05 14:03:56


   
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I'm currently reading "Carrion Throne", the Inquisition-themed novel set on Terra, and in case you're looking into expanding the list to include flyers, there's several mentions of Arbites craft. It's only in passing though, no detailed descriptions are made and it's hard to tell whether it's talking about one or several types of vehicle. One name is mentioned though, the "Raptor crowd-suppression gunship".

It might be a special case, since it's Terra, but that along with the Eagle shuttle mentioned in "Execution Hour" is at least precedent for the Arbites having their own flyers as opposed to requisitioned ones.
   
 
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