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I have yet to actually play a game of 8e yet, however after reading over the index I can't help but feel like Chaos in general got the shaft. No more marks for undivided infantry, daemon engines with their already low BS getting -1 to hit with heavy weapons, T-sons and death guard losing access to half the codex. Can someone who has already played 8e with chaos chime in? I want to hear how things are looking on the table top.

The indexes are more of a placeholder until the actual codexes come out.

All of the Chaos stuff will probably be split into individual books. So first release will be Death Guard and eventually you will have each dedicated Chaos Legion with it's own unique rules and stuff.

It sucks that they gave us all Legion rules just last year and now they're gone, but at this point it's more of a waiting game.

 sykl wrote:
I have yet to actually play a game of 8e yet, however after reading over the index I can't help but feel like Chaos in general got the shaft. No more marks for undivided infantry, daemon engines with their already low BS getting -1 to hit with heavy weapons, T-sons and death guard losing access to half the codex. Can someone who has already played 8e with chaos chime in? I want to hear how things are looking on the table top.

I can tell you tomorrow. I am playing my first game of 8th with a buddy then.

I am playing DG he is playing BA. 1500 points. Friendly game, as always, but I am curious how it will go lol.

I think traditional CSM have a poor stats vs cost ratio.

Consider the Forgefiend: 197 pts with 3 ectoplasmas will put out 6 plasma shots on average at BS 4+ and 24" range. A Nid Exocrine is 32 pts more, has the same output on the move, standing still it goes to BS 3+ and 12 plasma shots, more than twice the firepower, and has a 36" range base and +1 Toughness - it's actually the equivalent of AV14.

I've been having some good success with my Thousand Sons army, though I'm using brimstone horrors for chaff instead of cultists/tzaangors so take that as you will. People dread the psychic phase when they play with me because they inevitably drown in Smites.

Having been away since 3rd Edition, and dipping my toes back in the water earlier this year, the Chaos Index feels very...well...ordered. Bland options abound, the Marks of Chaos is a huge let down in particular but even just the wargear options are just making the list look like Spikey Imperials.

Obviously there's a lot of legion specific stuff that will come with each Codex, but whereas Blood Angels I can see maybe getting some CC buff, even the more generic Chaos Legions are going to need a big overhaul to rules to feel properly Chaos-y to me.

I pulled out all my old models the other day to see what I had to play with in 8th and it was quite disappointing. I'd started off just painting squads in different legion colours in 2nd, but 3rd giving good reasons to stick to one legion or another had got me focused on a Black Legion army, for their "little but of everything" vibe. I have a custom Slaanesh Terminator with a needle weapon and a squad of Possessed converted from the old(ish) plastic Chaos Warriors who've got Bolt Pistols. Stuff that just doesn't exist now. Even the official Possessed models have some with wings, but that's not an option in 8th.

Marks are the big one though. They don't mean anything, unless you're buying an Icon, and then that only affects that unit. The only reason I can see to take a Mark on a character is to restrict what type of demon you can summon and exclude some units from re-rolls.

There are a lot of nice options, I'm glad I've got a big gang of Berserkers, for example, and definitely looking to run Cypher and some Fallen at some point (where at least the less Chaos-y aspects of the rest of the list are more welcome) and the 4 cult specific armies get their bare minimum Elites are now Troops option and the 3 new Psychic power sets. Which I suppose is nice. But overall it feels like a much larger step back than the other armies I've looked at.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I think traditional CSM have a poor stats vs cost ratio.

Consider the Forgefiend: 197 pts with 3 ectoplasmas will put out 6 plasma shots on average at BS 4+ and 24" range. A Nid Exocrine is 32 pts more, has the same output on the move, standing still it goes to BS 3+ and 12 plasma shots, more than twice the firepower, and has a 36" range base and +1 Toughness - it's actually the equivalent of AV14.

The Nid however doesn't have a 5++ invulnerable nor base healing per turn, nor can it be healed by a Warpsmith (ancillary benefit I know, but can be useful with synergy bonus), get's rerolls of 1 from the Chaos Lord, and can gain +1 to hit from the Sorcerer.

I do love that Daemon Engines hit on 4+ rather then the usual 5+ thanks to WS3 no longer being a thing however.

After playing a handful of games thus far and going to play some more today, I feel CSM are fine. Lots of different strats work now you just have to find the one for you. My massive drop pod with 16 zerks, kharn, and an apostle is hella fun. I'm grabbing some Blood Slaughterers for anti-everything, but mostly antitank.

Deamon engines can also be healed by nurgle heralds as long as they are nurgle

I wish there was more overlap with the "Nurgle" keyword for buff bubbles between Nurgle Daemons and Death Guard but otherwise I've been enjoying my new Plague Marines.

I do love that Daemon Engines hit on 4+ rather then the usual 5+ thanks to WS3 no longer being a thing however.

What? Unless you were fighting WS6 or higher (or WS2 or lower), daemon engines always hit on 4+ in 7th.

 McGibs wrote:

I do love that Daemon Engines hit on 4+ rather then the usual 5+ thanks to WS3 no longer being a thing however.

What? Unless you were fighting WS6 or higher (or WS2 or lower), daemon engines always hit on 4+ in 7th.

Also note, most weapons are Heavy, so you're hitting on 5s if you moved.

Ah sorry, thought you meant BS

I'm not going to bother unpacking my iron warriors until we get a dex.

 McGibs wrote:

I do love that Daemon Engines hit on 4+ rather then the usual 5+ thanks to WS3 no longer being a thing however.

What? Unless you were fighting WS6 or higher (or WS2 or lower), daemon engines always hit on 4+ in 7th.

WS7 and higher I believe actually, but it seems like when I tried to use Melee ones they either got shot down or they had someone really fightworthy in their ranks.

After a couple of games with them I'd say the balance is pretty good. Just a couple of changes here and there I would make (Plague Marines need Pistols and Obliterators need their gun to be Assault 3) but I'm pleased with what we got until the Codices start rolling out.

It's worth mentioning that while Marks don't do anything, neither does Chapter or anything else for sub-factions. It's basically just putting Chaos and Space Marines on an even playing field with everyone else (at least until Codices come out and Chaos gets our Marks and Necrons get special rules for individual Dynasties).

played 3 times vs space marines and won, played once vs another chaps buddy and lost!
I'd say that our index is fine. The 'dex i hope will give me more toys and options to play with. but the basics are here already and are good.

Arachnofiend wrote:
It's worth mentioning that while Marks don't do anything, neither does Chapter or anything else for sub-factions. It's basically just putting Chaos and Space Marines on an even playing field with everyone else (at least until Codices come out and Chaos gets our Marks and Necrons get special rules for individual Dynasties).

I don't see how. There's already the Chaos faction keyword and Legion keyword. These are equivalent to the Imperium and Chapter keywords.

As it stands now there are more things you lose out on by taking a Mark. Characters can only buff Legion units with the same Mark, and only summon Daemons with the same Mark. Unmarked these default to the Legion and Chaos keywords. Unless I'm missing something in summoning rules and your character has to have say the Khorne keyword to summon Khorne units, you basically lose 4 lists worth of potential summoned units unless you go "unmarked" (would love it if they just said this was Undivided).

I closest I can see in Imperium armies, and I'll be honest I've only really looked at regular Marines and BA is that the Death Company keyword lets some characters give extra buffs to Death Company units, I'd have to check but I don't think Lemartes Chaplain buff stops working on non-DC Blood Angels. Though thinking about it, maybe Tycho The Lost's buff does only affect DC. I'm assuming there's no similar shenanigans with Dark Angels characters, since they're mostly Deathwing so stopping them buffing non-DW DA would seriously do them.

Although, to be fair, for squads, the Marks used to be charged, now they're free, so you could say the Icon cost replaces that, and those Icon rules could be pretty handy. There's nothing to say your unmarked Lord can't buff a marked unit so unless you're going dedicated to one God or another, (in which case you'll probably be using the World Eaters, Death Guard, etc legion specific lists) Marks on characters seem pointless. Which is a shame.

As someone put it nicely: Water is wet, fire is hot, Chaos space marines still suck.

I've got to give GW props though, there're a lot of models already that I don't intend on getting off my shelve anymore until a codex drops and I'm looking at buying laspreds instead.

DaPino wrote:
As someone put it nicely: Water is wet, fire is hot, Chaos space marines still suck.

I've got to give GW props though, there're a lot of models already that I don't intend on getting off my shelve anymore until a codex drops and I'm looking at buying laspreds instead.

Played five games last week as Death Guard - didn't win a single one.

Two just weren't even close (vs. Necron silver tide and Cawl/Mechanicum with triple-phos kastellans).

Just not even comparable in power.

Plague Marines cost too much, terminators are ok but need to be melta-cide or have a sorcerer in termie armour to cast warptime. Heldrake did work some games but others just died fast (two is better, but they are a bit expensive). Helbrute is slow, and gets negs to hit when moving (duh). Bikers are ok, bit expensive again, but they can fire special and combi-bolters (and have bolt pistols for cc - which can switch out for chainswords).

Oblits are... ok, being able to DS in is good, but when you roll three 1's on the D3's for the turns shooting you know it's gonna go bad for you.

Compare - double kastellan with triple heavy phos, 220 pts. 12W T7 3+, puts out 36 shots S6 AP-1 D1 if you stay still. Add cawl nearby for re-rolls to hit(!)

oblits, 195 points. 9W T4 2+, puts out 6 shots S6+D3, AP D3, D D3.

Now tell me this game is balanced.

CSM have same leadership issues, which now extend to the elite units as well. (Joy!)

If you decide to play thousand sons or death guard then you have NO OPTIONS to increase your leadership. You have super expensive, elite, ageless warriors that run like babies as soon as they start dying.

Daemon engines are fantastic so I'm not sure what the complaints are about, quit moving, and if you do advance so you can sit still the next turn.

I think a ton of players (Most of which do not play Age of Sigmar) have zero understanding of how close combat works.
Positioning of assaults, using units in the right order, getting into combat, ensuring you have cover, making sure you have a flanking unit so your opponent has to decide who gets into combat, when to fall back, falling back torwards objectives, etc....

My only complain so far is with DG and TS, and that should be fixed soon enough in a codex. (One can hope....)

 sykl wrote:
I have yet to actually play a game of 8e yet,

Maybe try playing a game before decrying the faction?

however after reading over the index I can't help but feel like Chaos in general got the shaft.

See above

No more marks for undivided infantry,

All Mark abilities are gone, same as chapter tactics for Marines and most other factions in the game. They'll be back in the Codexes. You do have an undivided icon.

daemon engines with their already low BS getting -1 to hit with heavy weapons,

Same as every other vehicle and monstrous creature in the game in the game. They've not been singled out

T-sons and death guard losing access to half the codex.

Other stuff can go into another detachment just fine. No-ones models have been Squatted here.

On a plus, plague marines in a ruin (hopefully sat on an objective) are hard to shift. Add in the plaguecaster for the lovely -1 to hit power and you're very durable.

Autocannon havocs put in some work, pretty happy with them.

Land Raider was an absolute beast, though he got blown up t1 versus the Admech player. Pretty brutal.

 CthulhuDawg wrote:
I wish there was more overlap with the "Nurgle" keyword for buff bubbles between Nurgle Daemons and Death Guard but otherwise I've been enjoying my new Plague Marines.

There is a good amount of synergy between daemons and CSM.

This is the list of CSM units that can benefit from heralds, etc... This was put together by Wyrlock
As you can see, there a lot more options than just daemon engines. Your tzeentch lord on a disk can benefit. Your nurgle mutilators can benefit from Epidemius' tally, etc...
In some of these cases, the +1 STR from a herald is not much, but in others is significant. Warp talons with +1 STR are much better. The forgefiend is not so much.
You can also apply daemon spells to these units. You can have your herald not only boost Magnus' STR to 9, but also hit him with 'boon of change'
I would argue that there is more synergy between daemons and CSM than imperial units.

HQ:
Lord on Chaos God Mount
Sorcerer on Chaos God Mount
Daemon Prince

Elite:
Possessed
Mutilators

Fast Attack:
Warp Talons
Foetid Bloat Drone

Flyer:
Heldrake

Heavy Support:
Obliterators
Forgefiend
Maulerfiend
Defiler

LoW:
Khorne Lord of Skulls
Magnus the Red

 sykl wrote:
I have yet to actually play a game of 8e yet, however after reading over the index I can't help but feel like Chaos in general got the shaft. No more marks for undivided infantry, daemon engines with their already low BS getting -1 to hit with heavy weapons, T-sons and death guard losing access to half the codex. Can someone who has already played 8e with chaos chime in? I want to hear how things are looking on the table top.

In regards to the initial question, chaos is doing just fine.
It's a different beast than imperial. Yes, there are units that are less efficient than others, but it also has some extremely good options. If you want to check it out, I did a ton of mathhammering here to show the most effective units for damage output.

It's important to stop thinking of your army as CSM, but overall as Chaos. You can throw a renegade knight into your army with no problem at all.
In this regard, Chaos has a lot of options -- the second largest selection in the game.

You can also apply daemon spells to these units. You can have your herald not only boost Magnus' STR to 9, but also hit him with 'boon of change'
I would argue that there is more synergy between daemons and CSM than imperial units.

The Changeling is incredible for Tzeentch Daemon units, given the 9" -1 to hit in all phases thing, but say a Warp Talon squad at S5 -1 to hit and boosted by Boon of Change would be the sort of interesting synergy I like to see.

For now though I am disappointed by the lessened synergy alongside pure CSM which will harm our undivided brothers, but for now we will make due. We always do.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

You can also apply daemon spells to these units. You can have your herald not only boost Magnus' STR to 9, but also hit him with 'boon of change'
I would argue that there is more synergy between daemons and CSM than imperial units.

The Changeling is incredible for Tzeentch Daemon units, given the 9" -1 to hit in all phases thing, but say a Warp Talon squad at S5 -1 to hit and boosted by Boon of Change would be the sort of interesting synergy I like to see.

For now though I am disappointed by the lessened synergy alongside pure CSM which will harm our undivided brothers, but for now we will make due. We always do.

There are other nice things as well.
For example, Nurgle Daemon Engines can benefit from the tallymaster....

 labmouse42 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

You can also apply daemon spells to these units. You can have your herald not only boost Magnus' STR to 9, but also hit him with 'boon of change'
I would argue that there is more synergy between daemons and CSM than imperial units.

The Changeling is incredible for Tzeentch Daemon units, given the 9" -1 to hit in all phases thing, but say a Warp Talon squad at S5 -1 to hit and boosted by Boon of Change would be the sort of interesting synergy I like to see.

For now though I am disappointed by the lessened synergy alongside pure CSM which will harm our undivided brothers, but for now we will make due. We always do.

There are other nice things as well.
For example, Nurgle Daemon Engines can benefit from the tallymaster....

There's at least something for everyone, though Khorne has the least benefits then comes Slaanesh. A pity that the Masque and Skulltaker don't boost X Daemons instead. Khorne's generally stuck with the Greater Daemon and Herald Boosts while Slaanesh does have the extra fight in psyker phase with ability.

Nurgle and Tzeentch have amazing options when it comes to boosting friendly CSM daemons.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
There's at least something for everyone, though Khorne has the least benefits then comes Slaanesh. A pity that the Masque and Skulltaker don't boost X Daemons instead. Khorne's generally stuck with the Greater Daemon and Herald Boosts while Slaanesh does have the extra fight in psyker phase with ability.

Nurgle and Tzeentch have amazing options when it comes to boosting friendly CSM daemons.

Khorne and Slaanesh both have beatstick heralds. Having a herald on a Jugg next to 3 maulerfiends is very doable. Running it behind a rhino full of possessed is also possible.

Slaanesh also has beatstick heralds that go well on a seeker chariot. (8 wounds and a character)
The slaanesh psychic power of Hysterical Frenzy is off the hook. It gives an extra fight attack from a unit during the psychic phase. So your maulerfiend, possessed, warp talons, etc can double their damage output.

Tzeentch is amazing. The Changling is awesome. Fast moving heralds are fantastic.

Nurgle heralds are slow, which is a big drawback for assault armies. However, they can use Epidemius (who is hard to kill) to get really good physical benefits to the entire army. Once you kill 2 units, every nurgle unit effectively has a daemon prince next to them. (rerolling 1s) The other bonus' like a STR, Toughness and move bonus are pure gravy. Going form STR 6 to STR 7 on a mauerfiend is a big deal. If you have a herald nearby they go to a STR 8. Lasher tendrils suddenly become a serious threat to vehicles. The fists start wounding knights on a 2+, etc...

Generally it's not any worse than post legion except for DG and I assume tsons. Tsons is even fairly workable if you rely on demonic support to help out (such as getting an actual chaff unit).

The biggest advantage over normal space marines is the relative ease with which we can use deepstriking. The Khorne icon of wrath and warptime can both make charging out of deepstrike much more likely and chaos can actually manage deepstrike melta without needing drop pods thanks to raptors/terminators (even without the melta damage reroll this is nice). Even rapid fire plasma/inferno combi bolters can really leave an impact.

The cult units are also pretty nice. Noise marines are good for clearing normal infantry, zerkers are brutal in combat. Rubrics... well they need to be fielded in large units to avoid the sorcerer tax (and get soulreapers). If you do that, the unit is suddenly more vulnerable to morale. Plague marines are just too expensive.

The biggest issue so far is the lack of snipers which really hurts against some armies. The only removal options are deepstriking, units with fly, and psychic powers (infernal gaze from CSM and bolt of change from demons). None of these options are very good sadly, but they are there.

The other issue with a "pure" CSM army is the lack of affordable chaff. Cultists are weirdly overpriced compared to what other armies can field. On the other hand, brimstone horrors are cheap, tough, and can be more dangerous than you might think, filling this niche rather nicely.

Oh and demon princes are apparently made of win from what I hear. Haven't tested them out yet.

Guys CSM daemon units do not have the right faction and this was ruled on by the "naming a regiment blood angels" nonsense in the developer guide.

Daemon in CSM is a keyword not a faction keyword so they don't mix unless GW puts out a specific FAQ that says so...