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So, after both playing and watching a number of games it looks like orks are pretty much where they have been for the last couple of editions.

There are only a few units that are not under powered and/or over costed. I have tried to make a decent TAC list with ranged orks backed by big mobs and characters but they just melt away while the damage output is really bad.
As soon as you are up against anything with a negative to hit mod you are pretty much screwed.

It doesnt feel like they playtested this at all or did a very poor job with it.

 jhnbrg wrote:
So, after both playing and watching a number of games it looks like orks are pretty much where they have been for the last couple of editions.

There are only a few units that are not under powered and/or over costed. I have tried to make a decent TAC list with ranged orks backed by big mobs and characters but they just melt away while the damage output is really bad.
As soon as you are up against anything with a negative to hit mod you are pretty much screwed.

It doesnt feel like they playtested this at all or did a very poor job with it.

I've seen a couple useful combos with them. Using Weirdboys seems like a good choice, since they pretty much auto-pass their powers. Deep Striking in thirty boyz onto your opponent's flank can be really effective.
Kommandoes are also great in minimalist squads - You get a Nob, two Boyz, and two Burna Boyz for 45 points, and they can Deep Strike. Since the Burnas are free, it's probably a bit of cheese, but it's about the only cheese we have.

Outside of big hordes of Boyz backed up by cheap-as-chips characters, there's not really that much you can do that I've seen.

Shooty orks << choppy orks. Like it has been since...forever?

 koooaei wrote:
Shooty orks << choppy orks. Like it has been since...forever?

You are missing the point completely.

In an edition where vehicles just became MCs, everything scary got more wounds, templates got nerfed, and high damage weapons will be spammed to stop vehicles, Orkz will need to horde up, play the attrition game, to likely be an anti-meta army.

Well, I dont see why Orks necessarily should be good at shooting. The shooty Orks are much better in CC than shooty Tau so naturally shooty Orks should be fairly cost inefficient if you only use them for shooting.

OP it is really difficult to give advice, unless you state what list you fielded and what army you lost to.

pismakron wrote:
OP it is really difficult to give advice, unless you state what list you fielded and what army you lost to.

Warboss, Big mek with KFF, 2x30 boyz, 5 Kannonz, 2 KMK, some flash gitz against venoms.

The point I am trying to make is that a large part of the "codex" is just fillers that are not ment to be used.
Again we are severly restricted in what units can be taken and making a decent TAC list is almost impossible.

TAC lists are no longer a thing this edition - you simply can't deal with both vehicle spam (4 Knights, Mechanized SM/AM) AND 150+ Boyz - well, you shouldn't be able to, but we know how OP Imperium are with Plasma Scions/Taurox/Razorback/HWT.

Orks can't kill vehicles this edition - you have to ignore them or get lucky. Tankbustas have honestly been underwhelming every time I used them; the squigs can hurt though, if they can wound/get past the 5+ armor save. Great, but half will fail to get the job; and coupled with a d6 damage roll, they're interesting to evaluate. Always take the most of them if you're taking Tankbustas.

Dakkajets are super boss; they'll hit the key backline units and kill MEQ like nobodies business. They suffer against large squads with key weapons in them (say 10+ Guardians and a Bright Lance), but they still do good damage. I generally haven't been disappointed every time I've used them.

Mek Guns are boss, and super survivable with large Grot Gunner squads and W6. I've been generally pretty disappointed with Kustom Mega Kannons; d3 damage really isn't good enough for vehicles - that said, two large squads of them threaten small tough squads with S8 AP-3. I think Smasha Guns might be better, but I haven't tested them.

I used to think Gorkanaut > Morkanaut, but I'm starting to think it might be the other way around - Gorkanaut shooting is pointless; but the Morkanaut has a built in KFF and can randomly nuke elite models with S8 AP-3 shots. I never counted on both for their shooting - I count on them as distractions and melee beasts.

That said, you want a Mek with them to repair them the critical couple wounds to keep them W9+, so at that point the Mek might as well take the KFF, so... remains to be tested.

Burna Boyz are pointless, Burnas seem solid enough on Kommandos though. Nob Bikers seem overpriced; but normal Bikers are pretty tough with T5, W2, Sv4+ - and can roll lots of shooting dice.

Da' Jump+Warpath is BRUTAL if it all goes off, but you can only rely on it once. I love jumping Shoota Boyz, they're damn effective at 2 shots each, +1a at 20+ Boyz; after that, they fall off quick.

You need Boyz, I don't think there's a way around it. Stormboyz are real quick, and at only 2ppm more than regular Boyz, may be a go to. They lose out on melee attacks compared to mobs of 20+ Slugga Boyz; but the speed and being able to ignore models/terrain when moving probably makes them a viable alternative depending on the list.

tedurur wrote:
Well, I dont see why Orks necessarily should be good at shooting. The shooty Orks are much better in CC than shooty Tau so naturally shooty Orks should be fairly cost inefficient if you only use them for shooting.

there is a difference between being good and being passible. compared to many other armies we pay out the nose for what we get to shoot, the only explination I can think of is GW is assuming we are going to always roll maximum number of shots and hits 66% of the time or better.

a loota for example is as a model str 4 T4 wih a 6+ save and BS 5+, their gun does D3 str 7 ap-1 shots doing 2 dmg each, they cost 8 power level for 5 or 17 points per model so 85 points for a squad.

so for 85 points we average 2 shots per turn, if no casualties are taken we get 3.3 hits and they are only ap-1 so assuming it is hitting a space marine 1.1 wound doing 2 dmg.... against a rhino .85 wounds doing 2 dmg.

and note this is among our better shooting units and again look at the cost. we lack a way to really openup transports beyond getting to them which means some armies we really do not have a chance against see mech elder or imperial knights. we do pretty well against foot lists but once you throw monstrous creatures and vehicles to the list we really start to struggle.

I wish GW would just give us a balanced set of rules, I don't think any designers actually play orks so they have no incentive to fix them or real idea of what has been hurting orks for so long.

Orks are not shooty this edition. Unless you are taking shoota boys w warpath and dajump. Shoota boys aren't better.
I will say i played with ghaz and zhardsnark on 2 occasions and they both obliterate vehicles 6-7 atks at str12 ap-4 3damage w2+ to hit is brutal.
Boy blobs is the only competitive Ork list this edition. So I hope you like blobs of boys.
Also meka dread> morkanaut both at kff for your blobs and more reliable weapons w the rattler gun and rokkit bomm rack.

The worst unit in our index is by far burna boys I have no idea what the flg were smoking as they heaped praise on how improved they are...the only reason kommandos are ok is because of free burnas and even with 2 free burnas kommandos are only a cheap distraction unit. Snikrot should have increased the cover save of burnas by 1. Because 4+ cover save isn't that good this edition.

I wish GW would just give us a balanced set of rules, I don't think any designers actually play orks so they have no incentive to fix them or real idea of what has been hurting orks for so long.

It feels like a slap in the face for some units. Like flash gitz. Amazing models. hilarious/relevant fluff. Strong/balanced weapons with rules that are suitably orky....wayyy to many ppm. Also..6+ save?? Like you mentioned lootas. Great weapons. suitably orky. but at 17 ppm and 2/3 of those shots missing its frustrating. Why are rokkits a 12 point upgrade?? Tankbustas.. ok I can see it as they re-roll misses against vehicles. But almost 50 points at add 4 rokkits to a BW??? when 2/3 will miss. or 12 points to add a single rokkit on a trukk when it used to be 5 point upgrade?? Did their effectiveness REALLY go up 150%..? 6 kustom shootas costs the SAME as a single mega armord nob. And we dont have the option to replace it with a free regular shootas...whcih I would EVERYTIME. Or simply not even take it at all. The points for the new edition on some units is just so confusing.

This is a good battle report of what actually works this rd for orks. https://tidesofdestruction.blogspot.com/2017/06/episode-28-all-your-tomb-worlds-are.html?m=1

There's still improvements I think he can do like zhardsnark over a regular bikerboss and I still love meka dreads w kff.

So they fethed up again, despite all those amazing power gamers helping them with the game balance....

I have put down so many hours and so much energy in those fething little plastic toys and they are STILL worthless in the game.

I cant even sell them ffs

Don't feed the troll, people.

 Marsyas wrote:
Don't feed the troll, people.

Do you call me a troll? Do you think i am trolling?

That is pretty low.

What happened to all units will be balanced? all armies will be balanced? I am looking at all the fething miniatures i have bought and painted and they are still completely trash and you say i am TROLLING!?

This edition is just like the last and the edition before that and so on,the game is still decided before the first die is rolled! There is no place for a fun TAC list its all SPAM SPAM SPAM again.

I've had the opposite experience. All my stuff is doing really well.

 davou wrote:
I've had the opposite experience. All my stuff is doing really well.

What are you using?

 davou wrote:
I've had the opposite experience. All my stuff is doing really well.

Same.

I've played against several armies and had close/fun games every time except for when I played my friends Tau. He straight dumpster-ed on my Orks but a lot of it was my fault. Not every unit is viable in every codex, there is to much to balance, but the army is playable with a lot of different builds from what I've seen.

 davou wrote:
I've had the opposite experience. All my stuff is doing really well.

Ditto
Not everything is min/max perfect but everything (except burnas) is viable. Orks are solid mid to upper tier and they do have competitive builds. This entire thread is full of people comparing what units work best for them. We don't need to hand out a netlist for you. You play the list you do best with in your meta.

 jhnbrg wrote:

Do you call me a troll? Do you think i am trolling?

That is pretty low.

What happened to all units will be balanced? all armies will be balanced? I am looking at all the fething miniatures i have bought and painted and they are still completely trash and you say i am TROLLING!?

This edition is just like the last and the edition before that and so on,the game is still decided before the first die is rolled! There is no place for a fun TAC list its all SPAM SPAM SPAM again.

That was masterfully done. A tip of the hat to you, sir. Successful troll is successful.

 jhnbrg wrote:

 davou wrote:
I've had the opposite experience. All my stuff is doing really well.

What are you using?

10 man boys squads, trukks BC nobs, deffkoptas, lootas, Battlewagons, meganobz, burnas, etc etc.

So far I've played with almost all of my models except my stompa; They've all been useful and not felt like I had taken them as a waste. Some are certainly more shiny than others (deffkoptas, BC nobs) but nothing feels useless.

 davou wrote:

 jhnbrg wrote:

 davou wrote:
I've had the opposite experience. All my stuff is doing really well.

What are you using?

10 man boys squads, trukks BC nobs, deffkoptas, lootas, Battlewagons, meganobz, burnas, etc etc.

So far I've played with almost all of my models except my stompa; They've all been useful and not felt like I had taken them as a waste. Some are certainly more shiny than others (deffkoptas, BC nobs) but nothing feels useless.

Thanks,

I guess you are playing mechanised? Lootas in a battle wagon?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marsyas wrote:

 jhnbrg wrote:

Do you call me a troll? Do you think i am trolling?

That is pretty low.

What happened to all units will be balanced? all armies will be balanced? I am looking at all the fething miniatures i have bought and painted and they are still completely trash and you say i am TROLLING!?

This edition is just like the last and the edition before that and so on,the game is still decided before the first die is rolled! There is no place for a fun TAC list its all SPAM SPAM SPAM again.

That was masterfully done. A tip of the hat to you, sir. Successful troll is successful.

Could you stop that and leave this thread?

Manz have disappointed me. They probably still have a place but they're nothing like the bully boyz they've used to be. Mek gunz have become worse but they're still ok for what you get. Grots...i'm not sure you need them any more because boyz have gotten so much better with the core rule changes. Ork boyz are still quite fragile but they are reasonably choppy and numerous for the points. And they get better with buffs. So, you can easilly run 90+ footslogging boyz and get a competitive list! So far i've only run a single 30-man squad and a couple 10-man squads. Supported them with either manz + burnas (meh) in a trukk or a bunch of stormboyz(great). I've been facing really tough lists - sm dev spam and scion spam. Both top-tier lists. And managed to win both games. Wasn't easy but was quite entertaining. Both games are in batreps atm.

I'm in love with the treatment orks have received this edition. It's not all great and we haven't been catapulted to #1 easymode status - but I don't think they're a straight-up embarrassment like they were last edition. Orks are great at cracking skulls in CC, just like it should be.

S4, A3 (choppa all the way), WS 3+ on a 6pt frame is good. This is compounded with how cheap our support is. Painboys and Banner Nobs nestled between blobs of 30-man units of boyz will wreck face. I agree 100% that some units got shafted. But it's my feeling that the growing pains some players are experiencing has to do with the fact that the lists that are competitive for orks now aren't the same ones that were best for orks in the previous edition. I've always loved big units of footsloggers so it hasn't impacted me that much - but I certainly sympathize with those ork players whose lists aren't as viable this time around. 8th edition orks are a horde army - long live the return of boyz before toys! I hope that we get some cool toys in our codex - so don't worry doomsayers, there's still a chance for GW to really mess us up.

yea, there is no denying the effectiveness of a huge chunk of boys with power claw hidden now, though if you opponent list tailors or just has nothing but flamers in their list then rock meet paper.

I am likely ruyjning a nice battle wagoen rush tomorrow to see how that holds up. speed freaks, 3 BW full of 19 biooyz w/ nob/claw warboss on a bike, big mek w/ kff on a bike and a couple dakka jets seeing if speed freaks plays well.

Flamers are easy to game with orks. The other day I was playing a guard list w a command squad w 4 flamers I moved up to exactly 9in premeasured and than only needed an 8in charge which is easy w ere we go. 3in consolidation and most of my boys were in multicharged unit combat. No flamers were in range

As much as they hyped up flamers they made them to gamey. And just another reason burnas should be d6 damage.

I like putting 20 burnas in a wagon. They have done pretty well so far for me. Of course ice only fought against crons with my orks. Both times both burnas and the orkanauts were the big hitters. The boys just tied up units until those two could get to them.

So 20 burnas in a wagon. Do you get out,

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
So 20 burnas in a wagon. Do you get out,

I think it depends on the target. Generally speaking, I would say just burn people up from inside the wagon if possible simply because of how fragile burna boyz are. If you do charge them in, it would only be instances where you need to clear off a unit from an objective and if you do, ensure that they go first for sequencing who attacks since you don't want your opponent to use the countercharge stratagem to take a fair bit of them down first.