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Hi Chaps,

Would anyone with the new BRB be willing to sketch a rough outline of what is going on on Armageddon in the latest story developments?
I've seen brief mentions of Orks and Humans teaming up against the forces of Khorne and Tzeentch?

I think that could be cool depending on how GW handles it.
I enjoy instances where humans and Orks interact on a more personal level, rather than the lazy portrayal of Orks as mindless killing machines.

Cheers
Kroem

That's nothing, in Octarius the orks and tyranids are fighting together against chaos


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There's very little on Armageddon in the brb. Just that chaos are infighting as much as they are fighting the orks & humans. There's no mention of them working together.

OK that is wierd! How exactly did the Tyranids affect an alliance with the Orks?
Maybe they had some Zoats in the fleet to do the negotiating for them?

Does it actually state that they are allies or simply that they are both independently fighting Chaos in the Octarius system?

*Update: Ah that's a shame. The sudden focus on Chaos seems a bit weird to me, I've always associated them more with Warhammer Fantasy or 30K than 40K tbh. Maybe I just haven't been keeping up with recent developments.

There's no real details. These Warzones might be future supplements.. maybe.

You can understand the focus on chaos given how crazy the great rift is.

some kind of war, in the shadows.

 Kroem wrote:
OK that is wierd! How exactly did the Tyranids affect an alliance with the Orks?
Maybe they had some Zoats in the fleet to do the negotiating for them?

Does it actually state that they are allies or simply that they are both independently fighting Chaos in the Octarius system?

*Update: Ah that's a shame. The sudden focus on Chaos seems a bit weird to me, I've always associated them more with Warhammer Fantasy or 30K than 40K tbh. Maybe I just haven't been keeping up with recent developments.

the fact that you didn't think Chaos was the big bad is why they're really stressing it, chaos was always supposed to be "the great enemy" but GW sort of got side tracked.

 Kroem wrote:
OK that is wierd! How exactly did the Tyranids affect an alliance with the Orks?
Maybe they had some Zoats in the fleet to do the negotiating for them?

Does it actually state that they are allies or simply that they are both independently fighting Chaos in the Octarius system?

*Update: Ah that's a shame. The sudden focus on Chaos seems a bit weird to me, I've always associated them more with Warhammer Fantasy or 30K than 40K tbh. Maybe I just haven't been keeping up with recent developments.

Yeah this. Having 'one big bad' always seemed a little childish and simplistic to me. A little unambitious and small. Much preferred the narrative of a colossal behemoth (the Imperium) slowly being overwhelmed over the course of thousands and thousands of years by innumerable and uncountable enemies. The enemy without (xenos) and the enemy within (chaos). It also comes close to suggesting that there are 'good' and 'bad' sides to the 40k galaxy which again strikes me as a little childish and immature compared to the more realistic grey-areas 40k inhabited during it's more grimdark years.

I'll be moderately sickened if it turns out that the Tyranids have actually allied in any way with the Orks rather than just so happen to be fighting in the same place.

I don't mind so much Orks making an ersatz alliance with the Imperium against Chaos. The Orks would be happy krumpin' 'eads whether or not they've got spikes on them, and probably think it'd be fun to krump some spikey gits before krumpin' the not-spikey gits afterwards. The Imperium would be desperate to throw whatever they could in the way of Chaos or the Orks, and there's probably a general somewhere feeling very smug with himself that he's weakening both enemies at once.

The section in the intro on Armageddon does say that orks and humans fought alongside each other "at times" just because there were so many demonds coming in. And that the ceasefires never lasted that long. That's the section titled "The stand at Armageddon,"

The thing with the orks and tyranids is a bit odd, but it doesn't actually mention them fighting "together" it just says that their combined might fought the demons to a standstill. So that's something!

Well the new 41k story is quite different than the old, but it could still turn out to be just as Grimdark as the 40k story.
At least by moving the story forward they don't remove /retconn large sections of the established history and we can still fight battles in 'historical 40k' settings without all the new stuff if we don't like it.

As to what is happening on Armageddon.. perhaps we can infer some things from the crumbs of information we have been given.

1. Just before the fall of Cadia, both sides have fought each other to a standstill. The Imperium constantly injects more troops and Orks arrive from all over the Galaxy to fight in the most famous war of their time.
Then the rift opens, there are great storms in the warp and the Astronomicon goes out...

I see the following implications here;

• Imperial morale would likely plummet when they see a massive warp rift opening in the sky.
The Orks could interpret the phenomenon as a sign of impending victory and renew their attacks.

• Both sides lose access to reinforcements due to travel difficulties, this would favour the Orks due to their physiology and the defending side due to the high casualties associated with attacking heavily fortified positions.

• The food situation on Armageddon would get much worse. As a Hiveworld Armageddon almost certainly produces far too little food, the 3rd War for Armageddon has spread to the entire sector and therefore the food supply from closer worlds is likely to be affected.

Therefore, I see the initial events of the 41st Millenium as favouring the Ork forces.

 amazingturtles wrote:
The section in the intro on Armageddon does say that orks and humans fought alongside each other "at times" just because there were so many demonds coming in. And that the ceasefires never lasted that long. That's the section titled "The stand at Armageddon,"

The thing with the orks and tyranids is a bit odd, but it doesn't actually mention them fighting "together" it just says that their combined might fought the demons to a standstill. So that's something!

Why would Nids be fighting the demons? Its a waste of resources.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Kroem wrote:
OK that is wierd! How exactly did the Tyranids affect an alliance with the Orks?
Maybe they had some Zoats in the fleet to do the negotiating for them?

Does it actually state that they are allies or simply that they are both independently fighting Chaos in the Octarius system?

*Update: Ah that's a shame. The sudden focus on Chaos seems a bit weird to me, I've always associated them more with Warhammer Fantasy or 30K than 40K tbh. Maybe I just haven't been keeping up with recent developments.

Yeah this. Having 'one big bad' always seemed a little childish and simplistic to me. A little unambitious and small. Much preferred the narrative of a colossal behemoth (the Imperium) slowly being overwhelmed over the course of thousands and thousands of years by innumerable and uncountable enemies. The enemy without (xenos) and the enemy within (chaos). It also comes close to suggesting that there are 'good' and 'bad' sides to the 40k galaxy which again strikes me as a little childish and immature compared to the more realistic grey-areas 40k inhabited during it's more grimdark years.

The focus on Chaos is a good thing.
Previous fluff wasn't all that grimdark actually, as the Imperium was anything but being slowly overwhelmed (usually it was a story of the Imperium never being really threatened and winning everything).
Ever read the fluff of good old Warhammer Fantasy? Chaos was undoubtedly the big scary bad in that world, but that did not stop other 'bad guys' (Orcs, Undead, Skaven) from being really dangerous threats themselves. I feel that the 'bad' factions of 40k are moving towards this, and I think that is great.
Certainly it couldn't be worse, because none of the bad factions aside from the Tyranids felt really like credible threats until recently. Orks and Chaos were more like comic relief until the War of the Beast and the Fall of Cadia, respectively.

Frazzled wrote:
Why would Nids be fighting the demons? Its a waste of resources.

It's not like they had a choice in the matter.

I don't know! maybe the tyranids were happily chowing down on a planet and the demons turned up and were all doing their thing, making everything all warped, and that bugged the tyranids the heck out, so they ate them too, out of annoyance?

That is not in the rule book, but it is in my book, which exists in my head.

Edit: this is in response to Frazzled, in case that wasn't clear, and i look crazy.

The thing with the orks and tyranids is a bit odd, but it doesn't actually mention them fighting "together" it just says that their combined might fought the demons to a standstill. So that's something!

Sounds cool, I'm almost hoping to see some sort of Tyranid - Ork alliance just to see what crazy reason they come up with for them to be working together!

I had better get started on those Tyranid Burna Gaunts and Looted Zoanthrope conversions :-p

The feeling of the 'big bads' being toothless is sort of a different issue. Related, somewhat, i'm sure, but not the same. That's more to do with trying to do the dozens and dozens of conflicts mostly 1-on-1 (the right way to do it), but then just not letting the Imperium lose anything.

I really like that they've given Chaos their teeth back. That's absolutely brilliant. What i don't like is that everyone in the universe appears to be teaming up against it. Honestly that's what makes it feel a little unrealistic to me. These guys have been trying to genocide each other for 10,000 years. 10,000 years of fiery hate and conflict.

The real-world example i use is ISIS. I hope we're all of the opinion here that ISIS is despicable. If Russia suddenly invades Europe and the Middle East, do you honestly think either side would be anywhere near 'teaming up' against Russia? That's with, what, a few decades of proper animosity between the Middle East and the West. Now magnify that to 10,000 years of attempted genocide. Magnify the fanaticism and xenophobia while you're at it.

tl;dr really like that Chaos has teeth, really dislike that everyone seems to be teaming up against it and feel it's unnecessary and unrealistic.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
The feeling of the 'big bads' being toothless is sort of a different issue. Related, somewhat, i'm sure, but not the same. That's more to do with trying to do the dozens and dozens of conflicts mostly 1-on-1 (the right way to do it), but then just not letting the Imperium lose anything.

I really like that they've given Chaos their teeth back. That's absolutely brilliant. What i don't like is that everyone in the universe appears to be teaming up against it. Honestly that's what makes it feel a little unrealistic to me. These guys have been trying to genocide each other for 10,000 years. 10,000 years of fiery hate and conflict.

The real-world example i use is ISIS. I hope we're all of the opinion here that ISIS is despicable. If Russia suddenly invades Europe and the Middle East, do you honestly think either side would be anywhere near 'teaming up' against Russia? That's with, what, a few decades of proper animosity between the Middle East and the West. Now magnify that to 10,000 years of attempted genocide. Magnify the fanaticism and xenophobia while you're at it.

tl;dr really like that Chaos has teeth, really dislike that everyone seems to be teaming up against it and feel it's unnecessary and unrealistic.

The US pretty much created Al-Qaeda to fight the Soviet Union, I'd totally see them team up with ISIS to fight Russia. But that aside, I mostly agree with you. I could see some sort of alliance between Imperium, Eldar, Tau and Necrons though if the situation grows dire enough. They don't like each other, but all of them hate Chaos a whole lot more.

Grimaldus kicking ass that's what!

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
The feeling of the 'big bads' being toothless is sort of a different issue. Related, somewhat, i'm sure, but not the same. That's more to do with trying to do the dozens and dozens of conflicts mostly 1-on-1 (the right way to do it), but then just not letting the Imperium lose anything.

I really like that they've given Chaos their teeth back. That's absolutely brilliant. What i don't like is that everyone in the universe appears to be teaming up against it. Honestly that's what makes it feel a little unrealistic to me. These guys have been trying to genocide each other for 10,000 years. 10,000 years of fiery hate and conflict.

The real-world example i use is ISIS. I hope we're all of the opinion here that ISIS is despicable. If Russia suddenly invades Europe and the Middle East, do you honestly think either side would be anywhere near 'teaming up' against Russia? That's with, what, a few decades of proper animosity between the Middle East and the West. Now magnify that to 10,000 years of attempted genocide. Magnify the fanaticism and xenophobia while you're at it.

tl;dr really like that Chaos has teeth, really dislike that everyone seems to be teaming up against it and feel it's unnecessary and unrealistic.

team up no, but I'd expect them both to fight against chaos. that to me is my interpretation of whats happening. they're not teaming up, so much as both attacking chaos

BrianDavion wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
The feeling of the 'big bads' being toothless is sort of a different issue. Related, somewhat, i'm sure, but not the same. That's more to do with trying to do the dozens and dozens of conflicts mostly 1-on-1 (the right way to do it), but then just not letting the Imperium lose anything.

I really like that they've given Chaos their teeth back. That's absolutely brilliant. What i don't like is that everyone in the universe appears to be teaming up against it. Honestly that's what makes it feel a little unrealistic to me. These guys have been trying to genocide each other for 10,000 years. 10,000 years of fiery hate and conflict.

The real-world example i use is ISIS. I hope we're all of the opinion here that ISIS is despicable. If Russia suddenly invades Europe and the Middle East, do you honestly think either side would be anywhere near 'teaming up' against Russia? That's with, what, a few decades of proper animosity between the Middle East and the West. Now magnify that to 10,000 years of attempted genocide. Magnify the fanaticism and xenophobia while you're at it.

tl;dr really like that Chaos has teeth, really dislike that everyone seems to be teaming up against it and feel it's unnecessary and unrealistic.

team up no, but I'd expect them both to fight against chaos. that to me is my interpretation of whats happening. they're not teaming up, so much as both attacking chaos

As noted, I don't see why the necrons aren't fully rallying to fight the chaos legions.https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/730548.page#9458810
After all, chaos is just another manifestation of warp using entities the necrons were fighting before the chaos gods existed, and they have a vested interest in driving chaos back out.

I like to picture octarius as the orks and nids are fighting and khorne just sort of appears on the front battle lines and each side chews through them to reach the enemy. So basically khorne gets punked because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I dont ever want the Ork to team up with the umies.
It was bad in the end times of Warhammer classic and was bad in dow3, its bad in everythin else.
Let da orks be orks
Let da orks be great again.
Giv usa template of da foot of GORK.
Giv invis for a turn for MORK.
Let the ork player pif a stubbie at the not ork player and laugh atim.
+10 VP.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

The US pretty much created Al-Qaeda to fight the Soviet Union, I'd totally see them team up with ISIS to fight Russia. But that aside, I mostly agree with you. I could see some sort of alliance between Imperium, Eldar, Tau and Necrons though if the situation grows dire enough. They don't like each other, but all of them hate Chaos a whole lot more.

Hah, the man's not wrong really the analogy sort of breaks down with Al Quaeda. The situation is too different to be comparable.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
The feeling of the 'big bads' being toothless is sort of a different issue. Related, somewhat, i'm sure, but not the same. That's more to do with trying to do the dozens and dozens of conflicts mostly 1-on-1 (the right way to do it), but then just not letting the Imperium lose anything.

I really like that they've given Chaos their teeth back. That's absolutely brilliant. What i don't like is that everyone in the universe appears to be teaming up against it. Honestly that's what makes it feel a little unrealistic to me. These guys have been trying to genocide each other for 10,000 years. 10,000 years of fiery hate and conflict.

The real-world example i use is ISIS. I hope we're all of the opinion here that ISIS is despicable. If Russia suddenly invades Europe and the Middle East, do you honestly think either side would be anywhere near 'teaming up' against Russia? That's with, what, a few decades of proper animosity between the Middle East and the West. Now magnify that to 10,000 years of attempted genocide. Magnify the fanaticism and xenophobia while you're at it.

tl;dr really like that Chaos has teeth, really dislike that everyone seems to be teaming up against it and feel it's unnecessary and unrealistic.

team up no, but I'd expect them both to fight against chaos. that to me is my interpretation of whats happening. they're not teaming up, so much as both attacking chaos

Now, you see, I'm not sure if I would.

Chaos tries to rip your head off and eat your spine.

Orks try to rip your head off and eat your spine.

Why would Mr Guardsman choose to team up with Mr Green Spine-Eater to beat Mr Red Spine-Eater? Yes the two colours of spine-eaters are going to try and eat each other's spines too, but you're still absolutely as screwed as you were before and there's no real reason you have to join forces against Chaos other than that the narrator wants to paint a rather black-and-white 'the universe vs Chaos' narrative.

My real bugbear with that is the Eldar, although that's a slightly different matter. I don't mind the Eldar fighting Chaos and the Imperium fighting Chaos. I do mind the Eldar helping the Imperium because it's so massively out of character for what they're supposed to be. I think people generally forget that's they're not actually space elves. They're not Tolkein's Elves who are a bit aloof but will still fight orcs with you. They're aliens. Aliens who are as arrogant as they are manipulative.

Yes the Eldar will fight Chaos, and so will the Imperium. The way the Eldar will fight Chaos is by throwing humanity under a bus to slow the daemons down slightly, before even coming anywhere near the enemy.

It's as if by painting Chaos as the big baddie they've suddenly decided that all the people who were insidiously evil are actually good now, which is just...I don't know...predictable.



I am of course completely open to persuasion though

The Eldar need the IoM as a giant meat shield. You don't throw your meat shield under a bus because then you don't have a meat shield anymore.

The Eldar will throw the IoM under a bus as soon as it is a viable choice, but for the moment they need the IoM.

As for the Orks vs Chaos vs IoM. Chaos appears between the IoM and Ork forces, so now both factions need to kill Chaos to get to the other, ergo both attack Chaos. Same thing with Orks vs Chaos vs Nids.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

The US pretty much created Al-Qaeda to fight the Soviet Union, I'd totally see them team up with ISIS to fight Russia. But that aside, I mostly agree with you. I could see some sort of alliance between Imperium, Eldar, Tau and Necrons though if the situation grows dire enough. They don't like each other, but all of them hate Chaos a whole lot more.

Hah, the man's not wrong really the analogy sort of breaks down with Al Quaeda. The situation is too different to be comparable.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
The feeling of the 'big bads' being toothless is sort of a different issue. Related, somewhat, i'm sure, but not the same. That's more to do with trying to do the dozens and dozens of conflicts mostly 1-on-1 (the right way to do it), but then just not letting the Imperium lose anything.

I really like that they've given Chaos their teeth back. That's absolutely brilliant. What i don't like is that everyone in the universe appears to be teaming up against it. Honestly that's what makes it feel a little unrealistic to me. These guys have been trying to genocide each other for 10,000 years. 10,000 years of fiery hate and conflict.

The real-world example i use is ISIS. I hope we're all of the opinion here that ISIS is despicable. If Russia suddenly invades Europe and the Middle East, do you honestly think either side would be anywhere near 'teaming up' against Russia? That's with, what, a few decades of proper animosity between the Middle East and the West. Now magnify that to 10,000 years of attempted genocide. Magnify the fanaticism and xenophobia while you're at it.

tl;dr really like that Chaos has teeth, really dislike that everyone seems to be teaming up against it and feel it's unnecessary and unrealistic.

team up no, but I'd expect them both to fight against chaos. that to me is my interpretation of whats happening. they're not teaming up, so much as both attacking chaos

Now, you see, I'm not sure if I would.

Chaos tries to rip your head off and eat your spine.

Orks try to rip your head off and eat your spine.

Why would Mr Guardsman choose to team up with Mr Green Spine-Eater to beat Mr Red Spine-Eater? Yes the two colours of spine-eaters are going to try and eat each other's spines too, but you're still absolutely as screwed as you were before and there's no real reason you have to join forces against Chaos other than that the narrator wants to paint a rather black-and-white 'the universe vs Chaos' narrative.

My real bugbear with that is the Eldar, although that's a slightly different matter. I don't mind the Eldar fighting Chaos and the Imperium fighting Chaos. I do mind the Eldar helping the Imperium because it's so massively out of character for what they're supposed to be. I think people generally forget that's they're not actually space elves. They're not Tolkein's Elves who are a bit aloof but will still fight orcs with you. They're aliens. Aliens who are as arrogant as they are manipulative.

Yes the Eldar will fight Chaos, and so will the Imperium. The way the Eldar will fight Chaos is by throwing humanity under a bus to slow the daemons down slightly, before even coming anywhere near the enemy.

It's as if by painting Chaos as the big baddie they've suddenly decided that all the people who were insidiously evil are actually good now, which is just...I don't know...predictable.



I am of course completely open to persuasion though

Tyran has already mentioned the meat shield aspect of having the Imperium basically be their bulwark against Chaos since they're not going to risk any more Eldar lives if they can help it. More importantly, it seems like it's mainly those working with the Ynnari that are somewhat directly aiding or cooperating with the Imperium. The Eldar race as a whole haven't come to an agreement where they're buddy-buddy with the Imperium. Its a detente at best, where its in the best interests of both parties to deal with the crazy warp incursion that's right in front of their door. I'm sure there's plenty of Eldar corsairs and craftworlds still screwing over Imperial sectors, its just that its not documented or focused on given the new focus on the warp rift.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Now, you see, I'm not sure if I would.

Chaos tries to rip your head off and eat your spine.

Orks try to rip your head off and eat your spine.

Why would Mr Guardsman choose to team up with Mr Green Spine-Eater to beat Mr Red Spine-Eater?

If Mr Guardsman gets killed and eaten by orks, his soul joins the Emperor and is saved. If he gets ripped to bits by daemons, then his soul is taken for eternal torment or destruction.

@Tyran and Grimskul

Yeah I understand that they can't just throw them under the bus straight away. That would be a waste of a valuable resource, and it's a good point about it just being the Ynnari that appear to have a sort of pact.

It's less that I think things should have panned out wildly differently during the Gathering Storm. It's more that there are a few subtle changes that would change the perception of the Eldar for the better without actually changing anything about the result.

The problem is this. Because the Eldar have a connection to the already existing (and, quite frankly, a bit tired) elf trope, and also historically there's been a fair bit of fluff about the Eldar coming to the IoM's rescue with little-to-no consequences, you have to be really careful about handling human-Eldar interactions in the fluff. Otherwise, you end up with a gradually building body of evidence that the Eldar are prissy goody-two-shoes space-elves which is just not true, and more importantly is a little bit boring.

Yes the Eldar hate Chaos and so do the Imperium, but the Eldar are devious manipulative elitists who believe humanity is vermin, and they're both enemies too. There's no point in having a meatshield if you protect it so much that the meatshield itself can kill you. The Eldar's game is to pit equal forces of IoM and Chaos against each other so that they both kill each other to a man and the Eldar can stand unopposed. There are a few subtle changes that would actually give the Eldar some teeth, rather than perpetually portraying them as wet blankets. Here's the changes I would make.

The Fracture of Biel Tan progresses exactly as it did, right up until the point that the Black Templars step through the webway gate. At this point, rather than popping out exactly where they wanted to be as if the Eldar are little more than a taxi-service, they're unceremoniously and unexpectedly dumped onto a battlefield in the middle of a Chaos Marine/Daemon rallying point (who just so happen to be gearing up to attack the Eldar). The Templars were going to die anyway, so the Eldar lied to them and tricked them into fighting a battle that would benefit the Eldar and then die anyway. Then, the IoM gets to be all tough-man heroic and win against overwhelming odds, and then crack on with the rest of the book from that point.

Exactly the same result, but you get two benefits.

1. The Eldar get to be the manipulative untrustworthy aliens they actually are. Never trust an Eldar.
2. The Templars get to do some serious arse-kicking and snatch victory from the jaws of defeat, despite both Abaddon and the Eldar trying to kill them.

Come on. Tell me that wouldn't be better...

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Now, you see, I'm not sure if I would.

Chaos tries to rip your head off and eat your spine.

Orks try to rip your head off and eat your spine.

Why would Mr Guardsman choose to team up with Mr Green Spine-Eater to beat Mr Red Spine-Eater?

If Mr Guardsman gets killed and eaten by orks, his soul joins the Emperor and is saved. If he gets ripped to bits by daemons, then his soul is taken for eternal torment or destruction.

It's not a formal alliance.

Orks and Daemons will get stuck in because that's just sort of what they do.

Imperium would join in because whilst the Orks and Daemons are distracted, you can bring up the artillery and give both a proper kicking while they're otherwise distracted - or potentially leave them to it, allowing you to make more of your limited resources where you need to win a fight you picked.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
@Tyran and Grimskul

Yeah I understand that they can't just throw them under the bus straight away. That would be a waste of a valuable resource, and it's a good point about it just being the Ynnari that appear to have a sort of pact.

It's less that I think things should have panned out wildly differently during the Gathering Storm. It's more that there are a few subtle changes that would change the perception of the Eldar for the better without actually changing anything about the result.

The problem is this. Because the Eldar have a connection to the already existing (and, quite frankly, a bit tired) elf trope, and also historically there's been a fair bit of fluff about the Eldar coming to the IoM's rescue with little-to-no consequences, you have to be really careful about handling human-Eldar interactions in the fluff. Otherwise, you end up with a gradually building body of evidence that the Eldar are prissy goody-two-shoes space-elves which is just not true, and more importantly is a little bit boring.

Yes the Eldar hate Chaos and so do the Imperium, but the Eldar are devious manipulative elitists who believe humanity is vermin, and they're both enemies too. There's no point in having a meatshield if you protect it so much that the meatshield itself can kill you. The Eldar's game is to pit equal forces of IoM and Chaos against each other so that they both kill each other to a man and the Eldar can stand unopposed. There are a few subtle changes that would actually give the Eldar some teeth, rather than perpetually portraying them as wet blankets. Here's the changes I would make.

The Fracture of Biel Tan progresses exactly as it did, right up until the point that the Black Templars step through the webway gate. At this point, rather than popping out exactly where they wanted to be as if the Eldar are little more than a taxi-service, they're unceremoniously and unexpectedly dumped onto a battlefield in the middle of a Chaos Marine/Daemon rallying point (who just so happen to be gearing up to attack the Eldar). The Templars were going to die anyway, so the Eldar lied to them and tricked them into fighting a battle that would benefit the Eldar and then die anyway. Then, the IoM gets to be all tough-man heroic and win against overwhelming odds, and then crack on with the rest of the book from that point.

Exactly the same result, but you get two benefits.

1. The Eldar get to be the manipulative untrustworthy aliens they actually are. Never trust an Eldar.
2. The Templars get to do some serious arse-kicking and snatch victory from the jaws of defeat, despite both Abaddon and the Eldar trying to kill them.

Come on. Tell me that wouldn't be better...

except the black templars aren't alone, they're with Cawl and Celestine whom are CRITICAL to the plan of ressurecting Gulliman. whom they ALSO need to be trusted by (seriously, the eldar are expecting to let the eldar conduct some sort of magic ritual on the corpse of one of their greatest leaders. they couldn't afford to piss away ANY good will) you're not thinking long term eneugh. this kinda thing is exactly what eldar writers should avoid, the kinda "lol I betrayed you and lost the delicate trust with you because duuur!"

Sometimes when the need is great eneugh you need to be, if not honest, at least not actively screw the other guy.

Come on. Tell me that wouldn't be better...

That is a cool idea and probably would have been better, I wasn't a fan of most the stuff in Gathering Storm though so I think there are hundreds of ways it could have been made it better!

It's not a formal alliance.

Well what amazingturtle said above, quoted from the new BRB, is that there were localised ceasefires where Orks and Humans fought alongside each other, but that these broke down once the immediate threat passed.

This makes a lot of sense to me, when both sides are being overwhelmed the commanders on the ground could negotiate an ad-hoc ceasefire to ensure that they are both alive tomorrow to go back to killing one another.
We know that there is communication across the front lines in normal circumstances, and I don't see why this would have disappeared just because Chaos invaded.
(e.g. there is a story of how one regiment of Imperial guard sold the Orks some Basilisks, but they booby trapped them so they exploded when the Orks tried to use them!)

However, I doubt that there is an Ork on Armageddon currently with the authority to negotiate a general ceasefire or the brutality to enforce it, Ghazgull is the only boss who could conceivably have done this and he currently resides on Octavius.
Also any Imperial commander who tried to negotiate anything more permanent with a Xenos would quickly find himself on the wrong side of the Arbites or the Inquisition.
Therefore I can't see a long term alliance against Chaos evolving from the conflict.

Tyran wrote:
The Eldar need the IoM as a giant meat shield. You don't throw your meat shield under a bus because then you don't have a meat shield anymore.

The Eldar will throw the IoM under a bus as soon as it is a viable choice, but for the moment they need the IoM.

So... never?

Do we have dates for any "warzone"-like event ? Because if Dark Imperium is the last chronological piece of background Roboute and the Indomitus Crusade could have visited a few of them.