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Made in us
Furious Fire Dragon




A forest

Having not played in 8th edition how has close combat gotten compared to 7th? Is it better or worse? And how has each army faired in the fight phase? Who got better, who got worse, and who stayed the same? Also what units or models are the kings of close combat now?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut



Cheyenne WY

Well...in 8th CC Happens...so better? Kings? Khorne Berzerks...no suprise... Genestealers, we're Very good. Then the usuals Blood angels, Orks, etc...

The will of the hive is always the same: HUNGER 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

Close Combat is now part of the game (Meaning that you can actually do things as a player and... play), instead of a automatic-mode phase where nobody do anything more than rolling dice.

So, much better.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/26 23:05:46


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

Melee armies are much better.

Guard will give you problems. But they're giving everyone problems.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Irked Necron Immortal




Newark, CA

CC isn't king, but it's not useless. Shooting armies can actually answer CC-heavy armies that get into assault range by withdrawing from CC and shooting. There's no such thing as being "locked in close combat" anymore.

Transports are a lot tougher this edition, which is good for CC armies as they take a lot of focus fire to take down unless you spend actual points for dedicated anti-vehicle fire. And even then you're not killing everything.

On the flip side, transports are a LOT more expensive too, so you're not going to see entirely mounted armies anymore either.

You can shoot pistols in the shooting phase even if you're locked in close combat.

It's a very even playing field.

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Made in dk
Khorne Veteran Marine with Chain-Axe






In 7th i had a chance against our competetive Tau player with my melee wolves, now they just outright clean up the table.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/27 01:13:40


6000 World Eaters/Khorne  
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

 Brutallica wrote:
In 7th i had a chance against our competetive Tau player with my melee wolves, now they just outright clean up the table.


Your melee wolves or the Taus?

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






Mellee has changed. You can't hide in combat now but you can pile in to other squads and recieve no further penalties to multi-charging. So, cc is less sticky, somewhat less damaging - cause of less attacks and more saves vs power weapons - but if placed correctly, you can neuter nearby stuff with pile ins.
   
Made in fr
Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks





France

Melee is far worse.
Anyone can now just fall back from melee and then the rest of the army shoots you.
When before it was very strong, protective and decisive.
You will need several units or several assaults to kill just one ennemy unit.

   
Made in dk
Servoarm Flailing Magos






Metalica

 godardc wrote:
Melee is far worse.
Anyone can now just fall back from melee and then the rest of the army shoots you.
When before it was very strong, protective and decisive.
You will need several units or several assaults to kill just one ennemy unit.


Yet assault armies are doing better. HMMMMMMM.

 
   
Made in nz
Stealthy Space Wolves Scout



Auckland, New Zealand

Don't throw assault units into the center of the enemy lines. They will die. Shoot up the center, attack the flanks.


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Made in us
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Between Alpha and Omega, and a little to the left

 Galas wrote:
Close Combat is now part of the game (Meaning that you can actually do things as a player and... play), instead of a automatic-mode phase where nobody do anything more than rolling dice.

So, much better.

That's a weird complaint to make considering that assault (or rather getting into assault) was easily the more tactically demanding compared to shooting

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Made in gb
The Last Chancer Who Survived




United Kingdom

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
 Galas wrote:
Close Combat is now part of the game (Meaning that you can actually do things as a player and... play), instead of a automatic-mode phase where nobody do anything more than rolling dice.

So, much better.

That's a weird complaint to make considering that assault (or rather getting into assault) was easily the more tactically demanding compared to shooting
It wasn't a complaint...
   
Made in us
Furious Fire Dragon




A forest

How has an army like necrons faired since the initiative stat was removed?
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
 Galas wrote:
Close Combat is now part of the game (Meaning that you can actually do things as a player and... play), instead of a automatic-mode phase where nobody do anything more than rolling dice.

So, much better.

That's a weird complaint to make considering that assault (or rather getting into assault) was easily the more tactically demanding compared to shooting


Movement was demanding and tactical, but the actual Meele phase was a automatic phase where NO player did anything. With initiatives and 0 actions a played could do, it whas just a full phase of rolling dice without making any decisions. So basically, the meele phase was not part of the game. It was like a cutscene in a videogame where you just wait to play again.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/27 16:22:02


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

All melee got a buff, really. But IMO the biggest thing I've noticed is that khornate... ANYTHING is now frighteningly effective.

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Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

 Melissia wrote:
All melee got a buff, really. But IMO the biggest thing I've noticed is that khornate... ANYTHING is now frighteningly effective.


I can attest to this as well.

I played a game with a daemons player, and his Khorne Daemon Prince was an absolute juggernaut. It was hitting on 2s rerolling 1s, wounding on 2s, with 9 attacks, doing 2 damage each, at AP-3. Yikes. It will smash what it gets into CC with.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in au
Ancient Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnought






 Marmatag wrote:
 Melissia wrote:
All melee got a buff, really. But IMO the biggest thing I've noticed is that khornate... ANYTHING is now frighteningly effective.


I can attest to this as well.

I played a game with a daemons player, and his Khorne Daemon Prince was an absolute juggernaut. It was hitting on 2s rerolling 1s, wounding on 2s, with 9 attacks, doing 2 damage each, at AP-3. Yikes. It will smash what it gets into CC with.


Not everything in melee got a buff.
Some things got de-buffed, some needed it, some really didn't.

Monstrous Creatures no longer automatically have the ability to ignore all armour, some have no rending value in melee at all.
That's actually good, most of the ones that lost out were long range units anyway.
Tyrannids Monstrous Creatures are actually seeing melee now so it wasn't a relevant loss to them.
Thunderwolf Cavalry lost access to Strength ten attacks, they also lost two inches of mobility.
Wulfen Frost Claws copped a price hike and got debuffed from ap2 to ap-2.
Curse of the Wulfen lost its mobility bonus and only affects a unit once per turn.
Deathwatch Heavy Thunder Hammers are worse than regular Thunder Hammers and cost ten points more.
Thunder Hammer 20ppm, 25ppm for characters, Sx2, ap-3, -1 to weapon skill, replaces one weapon.
Heavy Thunder Hammer 30ppm, can't be taken by characters, S×2, ap-3, -1 to weapon skill, replaces two weapons.
Dreadnoughts gained two inches in mobility but lost access to Drop Pods, Murderfang also lost four attacks.

I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go. 
   
Made in gb
The Last Chancer Who Survived




United Kingdom

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Deathwatch Heavy Thunder Hammers are worse than regular Thunder Hammers and cost ten points more.
Thunder Hammer 20ppm, 25ppm for characters, Sx2, ap-3, -1 to weapon skill, replaces one weapon.
Heavy Thunder Hammer 30ppm, can't be taken by characters, S×2, ap-3, -1 to weapon skill, replaces two weapons.
I see the money-grabbing nerfbat is in full swing.
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka





Ottawa Ontario Canada

Melee got worse. Everyone leaving combat is awful. I watched a daemon prince get shot by 4 tau units with support fire just to get one round of combat off before the remnant of that unit just walked away, leaving the daemon prince having to do it all over again for a whopping chance to get a round of combat... yay. Shooting is still king, it's even more king now that there's no more wound pool.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/28 04:58:01


Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.  
   
Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





 Selym wrote:
 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Deathwatch Heavy Thunder Hammers are worse than regular Thunder Hammers and cost ten points more.
Thunder Hammer 20ppm, 25ppm for characters, Sx2, ap-3, -1 to weapon skill, replaces one weapon.
Heavy Thunder Hammer 30ppm, can't be taken by characters, S×2, ap-3, -1 to weapon skill, replaces two weapons.
I see the money-grabbing nerfbat is in full swing.


He forgot the damage

Thunder Hammer: Damage 3

Heavy Thunder Hammer: Damage D6 Each time you roll a wound roll of 6+ with this weapon, resolve the damage at Damage 6.

Though it'd be alot nicer if it took a small price hike and could be exchanged. The Guardian Spear is really nice but should be able to swap it out.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/28 04:42:52


 
   
Made in si
Foxy Wildborne







 Purifier wrote:
 godardc wrote:
Melee is far worse.
Anyone can now just fall back from melee and then the rest of the army shoots you.
When before it was very strong, protective and decisive.
You will need several units or several assaults to kill just one ennemy unit.


Yet assault armies are doing better. HMMMMMMM.


Because they've reduced the number of turns melee armies have to weather enemy firepower before reaching combat from 3 to 0.

Honestly this should tell you everything about the discrepancy between shooting lethality and melee lethality, if falling back and using other units to shoot up the attacker is enough to answer 1st turn charges.

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Made in gb
Been Around the Block




 Crablezworth wrote:
Melee got worse. Everyone leaving combat is awful. I watched a daemon prince get shot by 4 tau units with support fire just to get one round of combat off before the remnant of that unit just walked away, leaving the daemon prince having to do it all over again for a whopping chance to get a round of combat... yay. Shooting is still king, it's even more king now that there's no more wound pool.


Why was he charging a lone Prince against a full Tau army? Did he forget the rest of his army?

Melee takes a bit of Tactical thought. Be prepared for enemies to try and leave combat, plan for it. Hit the line in several places or hard on one side. Use a sacrifice unit to force enemies to fall back losing shooting. Don't send your Melee monster in alone, especially if it is your warlord.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/28 06:53:06


 
   
Made in dk
Servoarm Flailing Magos






Metalica

C.Straken wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:
Melee got worse. Everyone leaving combat is awful. I watched a daemon prince get shot by 4 tau units with support fire just to get one round of combat off before the remnant of that unit just walked away, leaving the daemon prince having to do it all over again for a whopping chance to get a round of combat... yay. Shooting is still king, it's even more king now that there's no more wound pool.


Why was he charging a lone Prince against a full Tau army? Did he forget the rest of his army?

Melee takes a bit of Tactical thought. Be prepared for enemies to try and leave combat, plan for it. Hit the line in several places or hard on one side. Use a sacrifice unit to force enemies to fall back losing shooting. Don't send your Melee monster in alone, especially if it is your warlord.


But that requires thought. I can't get my head around how anyone can prefer the old way of "right, I'm in combat, now we roll dice until one of us dies."

 
   
Made in gb
Sneaky Lictor






Sticking in combat is now much harder. Paired with the loss of the attack on the charge, your alpha really has to the unit hard or if they don't want to be there they wont and then your free to be shot.

As a Tyranid player, I always get a turn 1 charge which is normally followed by 6-7 turn 2 charges. Armies are MUCH faster now as well.

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Made in dk
Khorne Veteran Marine with Chain-Axe






 Purifier wrote:
C.Straken wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:
Melee got worse. Everyone leaving combat is awful. I watched a daemon prince get shot by 4 tau units with support fire just to get one round of combat off before the remnant of that unit just walked away, leaving the daemon prince having to do it all over again for a whopping chance to get a round of combat... yay. Shooting is still king, it's even more king now that there's no more wound pool.


Why was he charging a lone Prince against a full Tau army? Did he forget the rest of his army?

Melee takes a bit of Tactical thought. Be prepared for enemies to try and leave combat, plan for it. Hit the line in several places or hard on one side. Use a sacrifice unit to force enemies to fall back losing shooting. Don't send your Melee monster in alone, especially if it is your warlord.


But that requires thought. I can't get my head around how anyone can prefer the old way of "right, I'm in combat, now we roll dice until one of us dies."


But a guaranteed disengage from combat without any chance harm isn't right either.

Eitherway in a scenario against Tau its probably versus a castled up foe with kroots and firewarriors screen. And all the heavy hitters, shield drones and commanders with Kyuon reroll spam is right behind safe and snug. I have a hunch that single demon prince is the remenants of an entire army. Atleast thats the usual case against the Tau player in our club in 8th.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/28 08:35:42


6000 World Eaters/Khorne  
   
Made in gb
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard



UK

Well my wolves have faced two horde armies and won both times in melee my thunder wolves killed two ork dreadnoughts 5 meganobz the warboss and his pain boy for the loss of two models so really I can't complain.

Wulfen just tore through stuff while buffing my blood claws, really nice to run them again and not have them bounce off stuff.

And my wolf guard termies ate a 30 strong boyz unit and the third ork dreadnought with only two casualties.

All in all I think melee in 8th is fine.
   
Made in au
Infiltrating Broodlord





 Crablezworth wrote:
Melee got worse. Everyone leaving combat is awful. I watched a daemon prince get shot by 4 tau units with support fire just to get one round of combat off before the remnant of that unit just walked away, leaving the daemon prince having to do it all over again for a whopping chance to get a round of combat... yay. Shooting is still king, it's even more king now that there's no more wound pool.


Sounds like you just played badly
   
Made in au
Ancient Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnought






 Brutallica wrote:
 Purifier wrote:
C.Straken wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:
Melee got worse. Everyone leaving combat is awful. I watched a daemon prince get shot by 4 tau units with support fire just to get one round of combat off before the remnant of that unit just walked away, leaving the daemon prince having to do it all over again for a whopping chance to get a round of combat... yay. Shooting is still king, it's even more king now that there's no more wound pool.


Why was he charging a lone Prince against a full Tau army? Did he forget the rest of his army?

Melee takes a bit of Tactical thought. Be prepared for enemies to try and leave combat, plan for it. Hit the line in several places or hard on one side. Use a sacrifice unit to force enemies to fall back losing shooting. Don't send your Melee monster in alone, especially if it is your warlord.


But that requires thought. I can't get my head around how anyone can prefer the old way of "right, I'm in combat, now we roll dice until one of us dies."


But a guaranteed disengage from combat without any chance harm isn't right either.

Eitherway in a scenario against Tau its probably versus a castled up foe with kroots and firewarriors screen. And all the heavy hitters, shield drones and commanders with Kyuon reroll spam is right behind safe and snug. I have a hunch that single demon prince is the remenants of an entire army. Atleast thats the usual case against the Tau player in our club in 8th.


Most likely the rest of the forward ranks evaporated under Supporting Fire Overwatch.
Tau get a limited shooting phase in respose to EVERY charge - as long as nothing actually makes it to melee everything is free to overwatch again, they might be hitting on sixes but it's also possible for them to lay down more shots in overwatch than in their shooting phase.
Crazy.

I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go. 
   
Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Dakka Wolf wrote:
 Brutallica wrote:
 Purifier wrote:
C.Straken wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:
Melee got worse. Everyone leaving combat is awful. I watched a daemon prince get shot by 4 tau units with support fire just to get one round of combat off before the remnant of that unit just walked away, leaving the daemon prince having to do it all over again for a whopping chance to get a round of combat... yay. Shooting is still king, it's even more king now that there's no more wound pool.


Why was he charging a lone Prince against a full Tau army? Did he forget the rest of his army?

Melee takes a bit of Tactical thought. Be prepared for enemies to try and leave combat, plan for it. Hit the line in several places or hard on one side. Use a sacrifice unit to force enemies to fall back losing shooting. Don't send your Melee monster in alone, especially if it is your warlord.


But that requires thought. I can't get my head around how anyone can prefer the old way of "right, I'm in combat, now we roll dice until one of us dies."


But a guaranteed disengage from combat without any chance harm isn't right either.

Eitherway in a scenario against Tau its probably versus a castled up foe with kroots and firewarriors screen. And all the heavy hitters, shield drones and commanders with Kyuon reroll spam is right behind safe and snug. I have a hunch that single demon prince is the remenants of an entire army. Atleast thats the usual case against the Tau player in our club in 8th.


Most likely the rest of the forward ranks evaporated under Supporting Fire Overwatch.
Tau get a limited shooting phase in respose to EVERY charge - as long as nothing actually makes it to melee everything is free to overwatch again, they might be hitting on sixes but it's also possible for them to lay down more shots in overwatch than in their shooting phase.
Crazy.


Standard overwatch can be done against each charge.
For the greater good (former supporting fire) can only be used once by each unit, and when they do they can't even fire normal overwatch anymore.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/28 10:53:16


 
   
 
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