Author |
Message |
|
|
|
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
|
2017/06/26 22:53:19
Subject: Close combat in 8th
|
|
Furious Fire Dragon
A forest
|
Having not played in 8th edition how has close combat gotten compared to 7th? Is it better or worse? And how has each army faired in the fight phase? Who got better, who got worse, and who stayed the same? Also what units or models are the kings of close combat now?
|
|
|
|
2017/06/26 22:57:12
Subject: Re:Close combat in 8th
|
|
Longtime Dakkanaut
Cheyenne WY
|
Well...in 8th CC Happens...so better? Kings? Khorne Berzerks...no suprise... Genestealers, we're Very good. Then the usuals Blood angels, Orks, etc...
|
The will of the hive is always the same: HUNGER |
|
|
|
2017/06/26 23:05:10
Subject: Close combat in 8th
|
|
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
Vigo. Spain.
|
Close Combat is now part of the game (Meaning that you can actually do things as a player and... play), instead of a automatic-mode phase where nobody do anything more than rolling dice.
So, much better.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/26 23:05:46
Crimson Devil wrote:
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote:Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
|
|
|
|
2017/06/26 23:13:36
Subject: Close combat in 8th
|
|
Clousseau
|
Melee armies are much better.
Guard will give you problems. But they're giving everyone problems.
|
Galas wrote:I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote:He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic. |
|
|
|
2017/06/26 23:28:38
Subject: Close combat in 8th
|
|
Irked Necron Immortal
Newark, CA
|
CC isn't king, but it's not useless. Shooting armies can actually answer CC-heavy armies that get into assault range by withdrawing from CC and shooting. There's no such thing as being "locked in close combat" anymore.
Transports are a lot tougher this edition, which is good for CC armies as they take a lot of focus fire to take down unless you spend actual points for dedicated anti-vehicle fire. And even then you're not killing everything.
On the flip side, transports are a LOT more expensive too, so you're not going to see entirely mounted armies anymore either.
You can shoot pistols in the shooting phase even if you're locked in close combat.
It's a very even playing field.
|
Wake. Rise. Destroy. Conquer.
We have done so once. We will do so again.
|
|
|
|
2017/06/27 01:13:12
Subject: Close combat in 8th
|
|
Khorne Veteran Marine with Chain-Axe
|
In 7th i had a chance against our competetive Tau player with my melee wolves, now they just outright clean up the table.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/27 01:13:40
6000 World Eaters/Khorne |
|
|
|
2017/06/27 01:35:01
Subject: Close combat in 8th
|
|
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
Vigo. Spain.
|
Brutallica wrote:In 7th i had a chance against our competetive Tau player with my melee wolves, now they just outright clean up the table.
Your melee wolves or the Taus?
|
Crimson Devil wrote:
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote:Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
|
|
|
|
2017/06/27 07:59:23
Subject: Close combat in 8th
|
|
!!Goffik Rocker!!
|
Mellee has changed. You can't hide in combat now but you can pile in to other squads and recieve no further penalties to multi-charging. So, cc is less sticky, somewhat less damaging - cause of less attacks and more saves vs power weapons - but if placed correctly, you can neuter nearby stuff with pile ins.
|
|
|
|
2017/06/27 08:33:22
Subject: Close combat in 8th
|
|
Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks
|
Melee is far worse.
Anyone can now just fall back from melee and then the rest of the army shoots you.
When before it was very strong, protective and decisive.
You will need several units or several assaults to kill just one ennemy unit.
|
|
|
|
|
2017/06/27 08:34:38
Subject: Close combat in 8th
|
|
Servoarm Flailing Magos
|
godardc wrote:Melee is far worse.
Anyone can now just fall back from melee and then the rest of the army shoots you.
When before it was very strong, protective and decisive.
You will need several units or several assaults to kill just one ennemy unit.
Yet assault armies are doing better. HMMMMMMM.
|
|
|
|
|
2017/06/27 08:37:54
Subject: Close combat in 8th
|
|
Stealthy Space Wolves Scout
Auckland, New Zealand
|
Don't throw assault units into the center of the enemy lines. They will die. Shoot up the center, attack the flanks.
|
I am Blue/White Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today! Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.I'm both orderly and rational. I value control, information, and order. I love structure and hierarchy, and will actively use whatever power or knowledge I have to maintain it. At best, I am lawful and insightful; at worst, I am bureaucratic and tyrannical.
I find passive aggressive messages in people's signatures quite amusing. |
|
|
|
2017/06/27 09:22:53
Subject: Close combat in 8th
|
|
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine
Between Alpha and Omega, and a little to the left
|
Galas wrote:Close Combat is now part of the game (Meaning that you can actually do things as a player and... play), instead of a automatic-mode phase where nobody do anything more than rolling dice.
So, much better.
That's a weird complaint to make considering that assault (or rather getting into assault) was easily the more tactically demanding compared to shooting
|
|
|
|
|
2017/06/27 12:19:39
Subject: Close combat in 8th
|
|
The Last Chancer Who Survived
|
Luke_Prowler wrote: Galas wrote:Close Combat is now part of the game (Meaning that you can actually do things as a player and... play), instead of a automatic-mode phase where nobody do anything more than rolling dice.
So, much better.
That's a weird complaint to make considering that assault (or rather getting into assault) was easily the more tactically demanding compared to shooting
It wasn't a complaint...
|
|
|
|
2017/06/27 16:03:36
Subject: Close combat in 8th
|
|
Furious Fire Dragon
A forest
|
How has an army like necrons faired since the initiative stat was removed?
|
|
|
|
2017/06/27 16:21:49
Subject: Close combat in 8th
|
|
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
Vigo. Spain.
|
Luke_Prowler wrote: Galas wrote:Close Combat is now part of the game (Meaning that you can actually do things as a player and... play), instead of a automatic-mode phase where nobody do anything more than rolling dice.
So, much better.
That's a weird complaint to make considering that assault (or rather getting into assault) was easily the more tactically demanding compared to shooting
Movement was demanding and tactical, but the actual Meele phase was a automatic phase where NO player did anything. With initiatives and 0 actions a played could do, it whas just a full phase of rolling dice without making any decisions. So basically, the meele phase was not part of the game. It was like a cutscene in a videogame where you just wait to play again.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/27 16:22:02
Crimson Devil wrote:
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote:Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
|
|
|
|
2017/06/27 17:54:22
Subject: Close combat in 8th
|
|
Consigned to the Grim Darkness
|
All melee got a buff, really. But IMO the biggest thing I've noticed is that khornate... ANYTHING is now frighteningly effective.
|
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
|
|
|
2017/06/27 18:00:15
Subject: Close combat in 8th
|
|
Clousseau
|
Melissia wrote:All melee got a buff, really. But IMO the biggest thing I've noticed is that khornate... ANYTHING is now frighteningly effective.
I can attest to this as well.
I played a game with a daemons player, and his Khorne Daemon Prince was an absolute juggernaut. It was hitting on 2s rerolling 1s, wounding on 2s, with 9 attacks, doing 2 damage each, at AP-3. Yikes. It will smash what it gets into CC with.
|
Galas wrote:I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote:He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic. |
|
|
|
2017/06/27 23:13:29
Subject: Close combat in 8th
|
|
Ancient Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnought
|
Marmatag wrote: Melissia wrote:All melee got a buff, really. But IMO the biggest thing I've noticed is that khornate... ANYTHING is now frighteningly effective.
I can attest to this as well.
I played a game with a daemons player, and his Khorne Daemon Prince was an absolute juggernaut. It was hitting on 2s rerolling 1s, wounding on 2s, with 9 attacks, doing 2 damage each, at AP-3. Yikes. It will smash what it gets into CC with.
Not everything in melee got a buff.
Some things got de-buffed, some needed it, some really didn't.
Monstrous Creatures no longer automatically have the ability to ignore all armour, some have no rending value in melee at all.
That's actually good, most of the ones that lost out were long range units anyway.
Tyrannids Monstrous Creatures are actually seeing melee now so it wasn't a relevant loss to them.
Thunderwolf Cavalry lost access to Strength ten attacks, they also lost two inches of mobility.
Wulfen Frost Claws copped a price hike and got debuffed from ap2 to ap-2.
Curse of the Wulfen lost its mobility bonus and only affects a unit once per turn.
Deathwatch Heavy Thunder Hammers are worse than regular Thunder Hammers and cost ten points more.
Thunder Hammer 20ppm, 25ppm for characters, Sx2, ap-3, -1 to weapon skill, replaces one weapon.
Heavy Thunder Hammer 30ppm, can't be taken by characters, S×2, ap-3, -1 to weapon skill, replaces two weapons.
Dreadnoughts gained two inches in mobility but lost access to Drop Pods, Murderfang also lost four attacks.
|
I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go. |
|
|
|
2017/06/27 23:41:41
Subject: Close combat in 8th
|
|
The Last Chancer Who Survived
|
Dakka Wolf wrote:
Deathwatch Heavy Thunder Hammers are worse than regular Thunder Hammers and cost ten points more.
Thunder Hammer 20ppm, 25ppm for characters, Sx2, ap-3, -1 to weapon skill, replaces one weapon.
Heavy Thunder Hammer 30ppm, can't be taken by characters, S×2, ap-3, -1 to weapon skill, replaces two weapons.
I see the money-grabbing nerfbat is in full swing.
|
|
|
|
2017/06/28 04:31:19
Subject: Re:Close combat in 8th
|
|
Fixture of Dakka
|
Melee got worse. Everyone leaving combat is awful. I watched a daemon prince get shot by 4 tau units with support fire just to get one round of combat off before the remnant of that unit just walked away, leaving the daemon prince having to do it all over again for a whopping chance to get a round of combat... yay. Shooting is still king, it's even more king now that there's no more wound pool.
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/28 04:58:01
Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did. |
|
|
|
2017/06/28 04:41:42
Subject: Close combat in 8th
|
|
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets
|
Selym wrote: Dakka Wolf wrote:
Deathwatch Heavy Thunder Hammers are worse than regular Thunder Hammers and cost ten points more.
Thunder Hammer 20ppm, 25ppm for characters, Sx2, ap-3, -1 to weapon skill, replaces one weapon.
Heavy Thunder Hammer 30ppm, can't be taken by characters, S×2, ap-3, -1 to weapon skill, replaces two weapons.
I see the money-grabbing nerfbat is in full swing.
He forgot the damage
Thunder Hammer: Damage 3
Heavy Thunder Hammer: Damage D6 Each time you roll a wound roll of 6+ with this weapon, resolve the damage at Damage 6.
Though it'd be alot nicer if it took a small price hike and could be exchanged. The Guardian Spear is really nice but should be able to swap it out.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/28 04:42:52
|
|
|
|
2017/06/28 06:25:03
Subject: Close combat in 8th
|
|
Foxy Wildborne
|
Purifier wrote: godardc wrote:Melee is far worse.
Anyone can now just fall back from melee and then the rest of the army shoots you.
When before it was very strong, protective and decisive.
You will need several units or several assaults to kill just one ennemy unit.
Yet assault armies are doing better. HMMMMMMM.
Because they've reduced the number of turns melee armies have to weather enemy firepower before reaching combat from 3 to 0.
Honestly this should tell you everything about the discrepancy between shooting lethality and melee lethality, if falling back and using other units to shoot up the attacker is enough to answer 1st turn charges.
|
Posters on ignore list: 36
40k Potica Edition - 40k patch with reactions, suppression and all that good stuff. Feedback thread here.
Gangs of Nu Ork - Necromunda / Gorkamorka expansion supporting all faction. Feedback thread here. |
|
|
|
2017/06/28 06:52:38
Subject: Re:Close combat in 8th
|
|
Been Around the Block
|
Crablezworth wrote:Melee got worse. Everyone leaving combat is awful. I watched a daemon prince get shot by 4 tau units with support fire just to get one round of combat off before the remnant of that unit just walked away, leaving the daemon prince having to do it all over again for a whopping chance to get a round of combat... yay. Shooting is still king, it's even more king now that there's no more wound pool.
Why was he charging a lone Prince against a full Tau army? Did he forget the rest of his army?
Melee takes a bit of Tactical thought. Be prepared for enemies to try and leave combat, plan for it. Hit the line in several places or hard on one side. Use a sacrifice unit to force enemies to fall back losing shooting. Don't send your Melee monster in alone, especially if it is your warlord.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/28 06:53:06
|
|
|
|
2017/06/28 07:53:48
Subject: Re:Close combat in 8th
|
|
Servoarm Flailing Magos
|
C.Straken wrote: Crablezworth wrote:Melee got worse. Everyone leaving combat is awful. I watched a daemon prince get shot by 4 tau units with support fire just to get one round of combat off before the remnant of that unit just walked away, leaving the daemon prince having to do it all over again for a whopping chance to get a round of combat... yay. Shooting is still king, it's even more king now that there's no more wound pool.
Why was he charging a lone Prince against a full Tau army? Did he forget the rest of his army?
Melee takes a bit of Tactical thought. Be prepared for enemies to try and leave combat, plan for it. Hit the line in several places or hard on one side. Use a sacrifice unit to force enemies to fall back losing shooting. Don't send your Melee monster in alone, especially if it is your warlord.
But that requires thought. I can't get my head around how anyone can prefer the old way of "right, I'm in combat, now we roll dice until one of us dies."
|
|
|
|
|
2017/06/28 08:30:20
Subject: Close combat in 8th
|
|
Sneaky Lictor
|
Sticking in combat is now much harder. Paired with the loss of the attack on the charge, your alpha really has to the unit hard or if they don't want to be there they wont and then your free to be shot.
As a Tyranid player, I always get a turn 1 charge which is normally followed by 6-7 turn 2 charges. Armies are MUCH faster now as well.
|
A Song of Ice and Fire - House Greyjoy.
AoS - Maggotkin of Nurgle, Ossiarch Bonereapers & Seraphon.
Bloodbowl - Lizardmen.
Horus Heresy - World Eaters.
Marvel Crisis Protocol - Avengers, Brotherhood of Mutants & Cabal.
Middle Earth Strategy Battle game - Rivendell & The Easterlings.
The Ninth Age - Beast Herds & Highborn Elves.
Warhammer 40k - Tyranids.
|
|
|
|
2017/06/28 08:34:42
Subject: Re:Close combat in 8th
|
|
Khorne Veteran Marine with Chain-Axe
|
Purifier wrote:C.Straken wrote: Crablezworth wrote:Melee got worse. Everyone leaving combat is awful. I watched a daemon prince get shot by 4 tau units with support fire just to get one round of combat off before the remnant of that unit just walked away, leaving the daemon prince having to do it all over again for a whopping chance to get a round of combat... yay. Shooting is still king, it's even more king now that there's no more wound pool.
Why was he charging a lone Prince against a full Tau army? Did he forget the rest of his army?
Melee takes a bit of Tactical thought. Be prepared for enemies to try and leave combat, plan for it. Hit the line in several places or hard on one side. Use a sacrifice unit to force enemies to fall back losing shooting. Don't send your Melee monster in alone, especially if it is your warlord.
But that requires thought. I can't get my head around how anyone can prefer the old way of "right, I'm in combat, now we roll dice until one of us dies."
But a guaranteed disengage from combat without any chance harm isn't right either.
Eitherway in a scenario against Tau its probably versus a castled up foe with kroots and firewarriors screen. And all the heavy hitters, shield drones and commanders with Kyuon reroll spam is right behind safe and snug. I have a hunch that single demon prince is the remenants of an entire army. Atleast thats the usual case against the Tau player in our club in 8th.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/28 08:35:42
6000 World Eaters/Khorne |
|
|
|
2017/06/28 10:25:55
Subject: Close combat in 8th
|
|
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard
UK
|
Well my wolves have faced two horde armies and won both times in melee my thunder wolves killed two ork dreadnoughts 5 meganobz the warboss and his pain boy for the loss of two models so really I can't complain.
Wulfen just tore through stuff while buffing my blood claws, really nice to run them again and not have them bounce off stuff.
And my wolf guard termies ate a 30 strong boyz unit and the third ork dreadnought with only two casualties.
All in all I think melee in 8th is fine.
|
|
|
|
2017/06/28 10:31:00
Subject: Re:Close combat in 8th
|
|
Infiltrating Broodlord
|
Crablezworth wrote:Melee got worse. Everyone leaving combat is awful. I watched a daemon prince get shot by 4 tau units with support fire just to get one round of combat off before the remnant of that unit just walked away, leaving the daemon prince having to do it all over again for a whopping chance to get a round of combat... yay. Shooting is still king, it's even more king now that there's no more wound pool.
Sounds like you just played badly
|
|
|
|
2017/06/28 10:38:53
Subject: Re:Close combat in 8th
|
|
Ancient Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnought
|
Brutallica wrote: Purifier wrote:C.Straken wrote: Crablezworth wrote:Melee got worse. Everyone leaving combat is awful. I watched a daemon prince get shot by 4 tau units with support fire just to get one round of combat off before the remnant of that unit just walked away, leaving the daemon prince having to do it all over again for a whopping chance to get a round of combat... yay. Shooting is still king, it's even more king now that there's no more wound pool.
Why was he charging a lone Prince against a full Tau army? Did he forget the rest of his army?
Melee takes a bit of Tactical thought. Be prepared for enemies to try and leave combat, plan for it. Hit the line in several places or hard on one side. Use a sacrifice unit to force enemies to fall back losing shooting. Don't send your Melee monster in alone, especially if it is your warlord.
But that requires thought. I can't get my head around how anyone can prefer the old way of "right, I'm in combat, now we roll dice until one of us dies."
But a guaranteed disengage from combat without any chance harm isn't right either.
Eitherway in a scenario against Tau its probably versus a castled up foe with kroots and firewarriors screen. And all the heavy hitters, shield drones and commanders with Kyuon reroll spam is right behind safe and snug. I have a hunch that single demon prince is the remenants of an entire army. Atleast thats the usual case against the Tau player in our club in 8th.
Most likely the rest of the forward ranks evaporated under Supporting Fire Overwatch.
Tau get a limited shooting phase in respose to EVERY charge - as long as nothing actually makes it to melee everything is free to overwatch again, they might be hitting on sixes but it's also possible for them to lay down more shots in overwatch than in their shooting phase.
Crazy.
|
I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go. |
|
|
|
2017/06/28 10:52:43
Subject: Re:Close combat in 8th
|
|
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
Dakka Wolf wrote: Brutallica wrote: Purifier wrote:C.Straken wrote: Crablezworth wrote:Melee got worse. Everyone leaving combat is awful. I watched a daemon prince get shot by 4 tau units with support fire just to get one round of combat off before the remnant of that unit just walked away, leaving the daemon prince having to do it all over again for a whopping chance to get a round of combat... yay. Shooting is still king, it's even more king now that there's no more wound pool.
Why was he charging a lone Prince against a full Tau army? Did he forget the rest of his army?
Melee takes a bit of Tactical thought. Be prepared for enemies to try and leave combat, plan for it. Hit the line in several places or hard on one side. Use a sacrifice unit to force enemies to fall back losing shooting. Don't send your Melee monster in alone, especially if it is your warlord.
But that requires thought. I can't get my head around how anyone can prefer the old way of "right, I'm in combat, now we roll dice until one of us dies."
But a guaranteed disengage from combat without any chance harm isn't right either.
Eitherway in a scenario against Tau its probably versus a castled up foe with kroots and firewarriors screen. And all the heavy hitters, shield drones and commanders with Kyuon reroll spam is right behind safe and snug. I have a hunch that single demon prince is the remenants of an entire army. Atleast thats the usual case against the Tau player in our club in 8th.
Most likely the rest of the forward ranks evaporated under Supporting Fire Overwatch.
Tau get a limited shooting phase in respose to EVERY charge - as long as nothing actually makes it to melee everything is free to overwatch again, they might be hitting on sixes but it's also possible for them to lay down more shots in overwatch than in their shooting phase.
Crazy.
Standard overwatch can be done against each charge.
For the greater good (former supporting fire) can only be used once by each unit, and when they do they can't even fire normal overwatch anymore.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/28 10:53:16
|
|
|
|
|